Tierra_y_Libertad
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Sun Jan-07-07 04:34 PM
Original message |
Poll question: What ideals would you kill for? |
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Edited on Sun Jan-07-07 04:40 PM by Tierra_y_Libertad
Bertrand Russell raised an interesting question. "People are fond of saying they will die for their country. The question should be, will you kill for your country?"
I can think of no "ideal" that I would kill for.
Throughout history, wars have almost always been fought for "defense". At least that's what the warmakers always claim.
They usually cite some sort of "defense" as a rationalization. They are always "defending" freedom, territorial integrity, vital national interests, etc, etc, etc.
So, idealists, what ideals are you will to kill for?
Edited for clarity:
I should have said, Please leave out "self-defense" or assume that there is an immediate attack on anything being made.
I'm talking ideals.
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annabanana
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Sun Jan-07-07 04:35 PM
Response to Original message |
1. My children's lives. . |
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Edited on Sun Jan-07-07 04:36 PM by annabanana
(but then , that's not an "ideal".
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no_hypocrisy
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Sun Jan-07-07 04:37 PM
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2. Not sure I could kill anyone intentionally. |
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I could see self defense getting out of control, but that isn't murder exactly as the intent to kill is missing. OTOH, I could fight if there was a threat to the liberties and freedoms guaranteed to us all in the Constitution, especially if the threat was generated internally.
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Coyote_Bandit
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Sun Jan-07-07 04:38 PM
Response to Original message |
3. Better question might be |
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What would you live for?
IMHO, living for something takes considerably more committment over a much longer period of time and usually impacts far more people.
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melnjones
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Sun Jan-07-07 04:38 PM
Response to Original message |
4. If you can't think of an ideal you would kill for, |
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shouldn't you have an option in the poll for "none?"
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Jack_DeLeon
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Sun Jan-07-07 04:39 PM
Original message |
I voted freedom but by that I mean... |
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for myself, my friends, and my family.
Everyone else, do it yourselves.
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porphyrian
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Sun Jan-07-07 04:39 PM
Response to Original message |
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I don't think I would ever kill another person unless it involved my own survival or an immediate threat to friends and family. And, since I've been lucky enough to never be in one of those situations to date, I have no idea how I would actually react.
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MazeRat7
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Sun Jan-07-07 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #5 |
16. exactly what I was going to say... I'll second that -nt |
rebel with a cause
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Sun Jan-07-07 04:40 PM
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6. In war, as in life, I can only think of one reason. |
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To stop someone from needlessly killing or raping someone else. And even here it sounds a little odd to kill someone to keep them from killing, but that is my reason in life. And in war it would be to stop a genocide, or the killing of many.
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rebel with a cause
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Sun Jan-07-07 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #6 |
7. Note I said to stop, not revenge for. |
CJCRANE
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Sun Jan-07-07 04:43 PM
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Not really, I don't know to be honest. Since WWII I'm not sure if there's been anything worth dying for.
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mike_c
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Sun Jan-07-07 04:44 PM
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9. to those who answered "Freedom" or anything else, for that matter... |
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Edited on Sun Jan-07-07 04:45 PM by mike_c
...who would you kill for freedom?
I'm drawing a distinction between defending your own freedom from someone trying to enslave you, and killing for a principle as I understand the OP's question.
All wars-- killing for some national principle or other-- are started by someone and the aggressor is seeking to kill others for an ideal or a principle, whether it is to impose their form of government or simply to steal another's resources. Most would defend themselves if attacked, for whatever reason, but what would you deliberately KILL for? What principle is worth being the aggressor?
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Tierra_y_Libertad
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Sun Jan-07-07 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #9 |
15. Well said and well read. |
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I tried to make the poll clear but, apparently, failed to do so.
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rebel with a cause
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Sun Jan-07-07 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #9 |
17. none was not available |
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so perhaps I went to an action instead of an ideal. I agree with you that there is no ideal I would kill for, unless not believing in genocide is an ideal. :shrug:
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hiaasenrocks
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Sun Jan-07-07 04:48 PM
Response to Original message |
10. I would kill someone in defense of myself or others |
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in situations in which there was an imminent threat that I or others might be killed.
And I would make no apologies for killing an agressor in self-defense or the defense of other innocent victims.
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EstimatedProphet
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Sun Jan-07-07 04:50 PM
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11. The end of freeper-style conservatism |
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You know, bullying and racism rolled into nationalist fascism.
I say this because I still think there could soon come a time when freepers are goaded into taking to the streets by their heroes Limbaugh, Hannity, Coulter, etc. If that does happen I doubt they'll just march in protest. They'll want to track down all the liberals and kill them. I have no intention of letting that happen.
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Fovea
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Sun Jan-07-07 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #11 |
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really. You have said it quite well.
Take up riding a bicycle for transportation, get real close to the culture war. Last year a cyclist out west shot and killed an SUV driver who ran them off the road, and then came back for a second try.
I haven't heard how that case ended up. But the conflict between Gore supporting cyclists, and Bush supporting SUV drivers is getting hotter and hotter. For a long time the culture war was mostly a cold war. It seems to me to be nearing a flash point.
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rebel with a cause
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Sun Jan-07-07 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #11 |
19. That would be ............ |
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self defense. At least in my opinion.
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EstimatedProphet
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Sun Jan-07-07 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #19 |
20. You're right. In a way it would. |
Cleita
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Sun Jan-07-07 04:57 PM
Response to Original message |
12. We don't have a right to kill except in self-defense |
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and that is only if it's a fair fight, that our attacker is coming for us with weapons. I don't think even in war that we have a right to execute an unarmed opposition that can't fight back. This is why the torture and deaths in prison camps are so wrong.
In this moral dilemma I can't accept collateral damage except in situations where civilians are caught in military targets. If there are children and elderly involved there, like human shields, then no way, we have to find another way.
I think bombing is wrong unless it's of military installations. Even when the Japanese attacked us in Pearl Harbor, they attacked military installations. When we bombed Hiroshima, we bombed a city full of civilians, women, children and elderly who had no hand in that war anymore than the Iraqi civilians have in our aggression toward them. We did the same in Dresden, Germany in WWII.
On a civilian level I have no problem hurting or killing someone who is trying to hurt or kill me. But never do we have a right to kill people who are unarmed, shackled, or too old or too young to defend themselves.
Getting to dying for your country, when you sign up for a "justified war" you know you may die and you will go willingly to defend those back home. However, if I were an unfortunate G. I. slave, in Bush's personal war, I would do very little to fight other than what I needed to do to defend myself and my fellow slaves.
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nam78_two
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Sun Jan-07-07 05:02 PM
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13. Oh oops -I chose environment before I saw the "kill for" part |
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I thought you were asking what is the most important ideal for each person.. Can't think of any ideal I would kill for.
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scarletwoman
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Sun Jan-07-07 05:26 PM
Response to Original message |
18. Gandhi: "There are a thousand causes for which I am prepared to die, but there is no cause for which |
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Edited on Sun Jan-07-07 05:28 PM by scarletwoman
I am prepared to kill."
That pretty much sums it up for me. I'm not Gandhi, however -- I would probably kill (if I had the means) in defense of loved ones. And I have no doubt I'd fight back vigorously against an immediate threat, it would be sheer survival instinct if nothing else. (But certainly not out of "principle" -- just lizard brain self-preservation!)
Just outright killing for "principle"? Absolutely NO WAY! What possible kind of principle could there be that required the murder of my fellow human beings to uphold? No "principle" worthy of the name in my book.
sw
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Taverner
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Sun Jan-07-07 05:35 PM
Response to Original message |
21. Freedom FROM religion eom |
marions ghost
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Sun Jan-07-07 06:10 PM
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that I would kill for.
Guess I wouldn't make good soldier material.
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BoneDaddy
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Sun Jan-07-07 06:49 PM
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23. No ideal you can think of? |
Jed Dilligan
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Sun Jan-07-07 06:52 PM
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24. Freedom is real, not an ideal. |
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If the choice is between slavery and taking a life, I take the life. Anyone who would deprive another of freedom deserves to die, anyway.
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jgraz
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Sun Jan-07-07 07:15 PM
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25. That depends -- who do I get to kill? |
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I can think of ten or twelve people I'd do for a free beer.
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Radical Activist
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Sun Jan-07-07 07:19 PM
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I would kill for pacifism.
:D
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melnjones
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Sun Jan-07-07 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #26 |
Lone_Star_Dem
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Sun Jan-07-07 07:24 PM
Response to Original message |
27. I hold many beliefs for which I would die |
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Edited on Sun Jan-07-07 07:26 PM by Lone_Star_Dem
But I cannot think of a one for which I would kill, there are too many other ways to achieve one's goals.
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goodhue
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Sun Jan-07-07 07:32 PM
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Raine
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Sun Jan-07-07 07:41 PM
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melnjones
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Sun Jan-07-07 08:34 PM
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I wouldn't intentionally kill anyone. Killing as part of self-defense or as part of directly in the moment defending someone else, when it's meant as protection rather than being pre-meditated, is as far as I could go.
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Mizmoon
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Sun Jan-07-07 08:37 PM
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Will it hurt? Can I die for my ideals when I'm like 99 years old and sleeping please?
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laylah
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Sun Jan-07-07 08:41 PM
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33. My children or another beloved n/t |
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