mdmc
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Mon Jan-08-07 03:23 PM
Original message |
Poll question: Abolish all labor laws. Let labor and management duke it out, mano e mano |
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America has lost the right to collective bargain, to unionize our workplaces. The current labor laws are a corporate wet dream, and do nothing to protect our working class.
I support abolishing all the labor laws in America. I advocate allowing labor and management to duke it out, mano e mano.
How do you feel about this idea?
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Deep13
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Mon Jan-08-07 03:24 PM
Response to Original message |
TechBear_Seattle
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Mon Jan-08-07 03:25 PM
Response to Original message |
2. Why must those who differ from your opnion justify themselves? |
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Why not ask that those who share your view to justify themselves as well? Starting with you, perhaps.... :hi:
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mdmc
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Mon Jan-08-07 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #2 |
5. I am interested in hearing what laws DU'ers feel are working |
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Edited on Mon Jan-08-07 03:32 PM by mdmc
I feel that they all must go. I've done some research on this, and I think that the NLRB (National Labor Review Board) is essentially unable to ever side with working people.
IMHO, We would be better off with the ability to strike - we have no real protection under our labor laws, imho.
My opinion, (imho) is justified by the poor working conditions of America's working class.
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Kelly Rupert
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Mon Jan-08-07 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #5 |
7. So you think that OSHA protections and minimum wage are outdated, |
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and the average service-industry would do better if he negotiated his salary and working conditions? I think you take too much for granted.
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mdmc
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Mon Jan-08-07 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #7 |
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And a working wage would be awesome.
I do support a minimum wage.
Again, just look at how corporations get around these two laws - (they hire illegals, no safety, no minimum wage) -
OSHA and the minimum wage are two good labor laws that are worth keeping. Good job!:toast::yourock:
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stonecoldsober
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Mon Jan-08-07 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #5 |
14. Strike - Lockout - Hire new employees |
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With no laws protecting labor, this would be the end result of most strikes.
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mdmc
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Mon Jan-08-07 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #14 |
16. really no difference for most working people in America today |
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correct?
Most employees have no union, no strike, no lockout, no new hires...
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stonecoldsober
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Mon Jan-08-07 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #16 |
17. I think a large portion of federal and state workers are unionized |
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as well as construction workers, plumbers, electricians, dock workers, police and firemen... I could go on and on.
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mdmc
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Mon Jan-08-07 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #17 |
19. yes, and they are getting their share |
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as an outsourced govt worker, I know how great it is to be represented by a union. Most workers are just like me, without the ability to collectively bargain.
Even within the groups that you list, we are starting to see "right to work" bullshit that makes it hard for cops or firemen to organize.
Please don't think for one minute that America is gaining organized union members; we are losing membership everyday.
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Kelly Rupert
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Mon Jan-08-07 03:26 PM
Response to Original message |
3. Let's hear your reasoning first, |
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as the only people I've ever heard advocating your plan are free-market libertarians.
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mrcheerful
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Mon Jan-08-07 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #3 |
4. Which when Hoover allowed it caused the stock market crash of 1929. |
mdmc
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Mon Jan-08-07 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #3 |
6. would it surprise you that my poll question is a quote from the |
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former President of the AFL-CIO?
My reasoning is simple - American workers have no protection from their employers. Management can do what it wants, and the workers have no recourse under the current labor laws.
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mdmc
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Wed Jan-10-07 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #3 |
HiFructosePronSyrup
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Mon Jan-08-07 03:33 PM
Response to Original message |
8. You mean literally duke it out? |
mdmc
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Mon Jan-08-07 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #8 |
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yes sir :patriot:
workers vs. management
for true.
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me b zola
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Mon Jan-08-07 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #11 |
38. But it took over 100 years of violence to eventually get ANY labor laws |
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Why do we want to throw away any shed of labor laws that still exists? We need to return to the New Deal and the labor laws that created a healthy middle class.
I urge you to go back to the late 1700's and begin reading up on the labor movement. It was a very long & bloody struggle to gain workers rights. If people today did what they did back in the day they would be called terrorists.
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mdmc
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Mon Jan-08-07 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #38 |
46. I agree . We need to return to the New Deal |
I_Will
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Mon Jan-08-07 03:35 PM
Response to Original message |
10. We did duke it out... |
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Edited on Mon Jan-08-07 03:36 PM by I_Will
Slavery was abolished. Child labor was limited. Collective bargaining came into being.
Is the idea that we should just rewind history and do it all over again?
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mdmc
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Mon Jan-08-07 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #10 |
15. So we now currently have the right to collective bargain |
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Organizers can't be legally fired for organizing. But look through the NLRB volumes of hearings - it happens all the time - slap on the wrist.
The "labor" laws abolishing slavery are good - keep them (although I think they were civil rights laws, close enough)
The "labor" laws regulating child labor are good - keep them.
There are no laws that truly protect workers right to bargain collectively.
So you found two laws that we should keep... pretty good, imho. :toast::yourock:
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hfojvt
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Mon Jan-08-07 03:36 PM
Response to Original message |
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Which I believe established the 40 hour workweek. Widely violated perhaps, by splitting shifts and putting people on salary or commission, but also widely upheld. Also widely ignored by Americans who use their free time to get another job.
I feel it is a really stupid idea and you have not put enough thought or effort into your thesis to warrant a deeper response.
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mdmc
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Mon Jan-08-07 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #12 |
18. I understand your feelings that this is a stupid idea |
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It is actually a quote from a former president of the AFL-CIO. The idea is that the labor laws have been reduced to nothing; management can "widely violate" the laws, without recourse.
FLSA is a great law, if enforced. Without enforcement, it is worthless.
This idea is very hard for those with union representation to fathom, but most of America is not represented.
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hfojvt
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Mon Jan-08-07 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #18 |
27. not enough is not the same as nothing |
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not even close, and lack of enforcement does not mean the laws are bad.
I have never had union representation, even when I worked in a union factory (not because I refused it, but because it was not available to either the janitor working for a service company or as a temp).
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mdmc
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Mon Jan-08-07 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #27 |
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I too, am very pro union. The laws, as written, are great. However, unless a law is enforceable, it is without worth.
As long as Corps can disobey the law without true consequence, we are without protection.
So, if the written laws are unenforcable, then we need additional recourse.
What I feel we need it a constitutional right to unionize.
Peace and low stress to you. Keep working hard. :patriot:
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LSK
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Mon Jan-08-07 03:37 PM
Response to Original message |
13. why bother having govt??? |
mdmc
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Mon Jan-08-07 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #13 |
21. the Govt should enforce the law |
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since the current govt does not do this (the NLRB), the laws have no "teeth".
If the laws worked (read - if the laws were enforced), we would have a great working class in America.
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LSK
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Mon Jan-08-07 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #21 |
26. so fix the enforcement part |
mdmc
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Mon Jan-08-07 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #26 |
31. Actually, I think that workers would have a better chance on their own |
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The laws are great - well written - helpful. The Corporations have created the method of enforcement that make the laws useless.
Either the corporations need to agree to and allow the enforcement of the laws, or the workers need the ability to take their destiny into their own hands.
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ThomWV
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Mon Jan-08-07 03:51 PM
Response to Original message |
20. How Do You Feel About Davis-Bacon? |
mdmc
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Mon Jan-08-07 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #20 |
22. I really don't know a thing about that law |
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but I will take a gander via google. Is it worth anything? Sometimes a law is great, but the way it is enforced makes it piss poor.
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mdmc
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Mon Jan-08-07 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #20 |
24. Looked it up a little |
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It seems protectionist - as a liberal I love it!
What I don't dig is how w. is getting around it with katrina et all...
Thanks for another good law, that really needs to be protected:toast::yourock:
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ThomWV
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Mon Jan-08-07 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #24 |
44. One Of The Very First Things He Did After Katrina Was Cancel Davis Bacon |
On the Road
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Mon Jan-08-07 03:56 PM
Response to Original message |
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-Tax evasion is not working, so let's abolish all tax law? -Enforecement of violent crimes is not working, so let's abolish all laws outlawing violent crime?
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mdmc
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Mon Jan-08-07 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #23 |
28. nope as a liberal I am saying that the tax laws and crime laws work |
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The labor law has been gutted, and needs to be reinvented. If the govt. made it a policy that the criminal laws and tax laws could not be used, then I would advocate getting rid of them (currently, only the wealthy are above the law *ojsimpson**enron*). The laws that you cite work fine for most people.
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On the Road
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Mon Jan-08-07 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #28 |
40. I Do Not Understand What Benefits You Anticipate From This |
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other than those George Will writes about. It sounds as if you don't support it at all, but just want to make a point of some kind.
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mdmc
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Mon Jan-08-07 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #40 |
48. No, what I'm saying is that working people could get a better deal |
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if we started over again.
The unions have been destroyed, and replaced with a class of working poor people. The unions have no interest in raising the lot of the working poor. The corporations have no interest in raising the lot of the working poor.
Only the working poor have an interest in raising their lot.
Once the workers rise, we all win.
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mondo joe
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Mon Jan-08-07 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #28 |
42. Then you have a simple course of action: support the campaigns |
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of candidates who think like you.
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mdmc
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Mon Jan-08-07 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #42 |
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well met.
back to school for mdmc...
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porphyrian
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Mon Jan-08-07 04:01 PM
Response to Original message |
25. Is it that labor laws have failed or our judicial system in general? |
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As long as justice can be bought, won't it always be rewarded to the richest side in a conflict (which almost always happens to be the management)?
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mdmc
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Mon Jan-08-07 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #25 |
33. well, the laws are enforced through the judicial system |
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but the laws also "tie the hands" (or the fists) of the working class.
Your reply is really what I am trying to say - we need to fix "the fix".
The wealthy always get theirs. Somehow, the playing field needs to be leveled.
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porphyrian
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Mon Jan-08-07 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #33 |
41. We need to stop allowing our goverment to be bought. |
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Lobbyists should not be able to buy legislation, and trials should not go to the most expensive legal team. The only hope we have for bringing integrity to our government is to stop its bias towards those with the biggest wad of cash.
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mdmc
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Mon Jan-08-07 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #41 |
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You are correct, but I can't think of how we reduce the power of cash...
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porphyrian
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Mon Jan-08-07 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #49 |
55. First, we, the people, must agree to this change. |
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Edited on Mon Jan-08-07 07:50 PM by porphyrian
Then, our elected representatives must do the job of making new laws and/or changing laws that allow abuse of power. To ensure this, the campaign process and lobbying must be reformed to disallow the "buying" of lawmakers. Congress is there to represent all voters, not just those who contribute the most money. Next, the laws regarding corporate personhood must be reformed. Either a corporation is a thing which deserves no individual rights or it must be held as accountable as any individual for its actions - as it stands, corporations enjoy the benefits of citizenship without the responsibility and accountability. Once this is done, we must work to remove all bias from our justice system, as there is no justice if it is arbitrarily or unfairly applied.
Edit: clarity
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mdmc
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Mon Jan-08-07 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #55 |
57. that is as good of a plan as I've seen |
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I guess that I am not as down with abolishing all the laws as I am at getting people to agree to this change!
Working people are hurting and something needs to be done about it.
AWAKE!
:toast:
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porphyrian
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Mon Jan-08-07 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #57 |
59. Sometimes it takes a good kick in the ass... |
mdmc
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Mon Jan-08-07 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #59 |
Yavin4
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Mon Jan-08-07 04:11 PM
Response to Original message |
30. That's The Fastest Path To Socialism |
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THE fatest path to socialism is through libertarianism. Why? Libertarian philosophy would concentrate power and wealth into a few hands. Eventually, the masses will use their only weapon, their numbers to take back that power and wealth.
The reason why Russia went communist is because the ruling monarchy of Russia refused to have a constitutional government. They wanted ALL of the power to themselves, and they fired upon a peaceful demonstration.
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mdmc
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Mon Jan-08-07 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #30 |
35. didn't think along those terms |
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thanks for your post. Peace and low stress...
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Freddie Stubbs
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Mon Jan-08-07 04:15 PM
Response to Original message |
32. Your premise is faulty: |
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America has lost the right to collective bargain, to unionize our workplaces. Janitors at the University of Miami formed a union just last year: http://www.yeswecane.org/index.asp?Type=B_BASIC&SEC={034B94D6-F564-4F93-909B-B774A54F1102}&DE={FC3F0E26-27BD-4803-98C9-D36DA6A47305}
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mdmc
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Mon Jan-08-07 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #32 |
34. That is good news! Thank you for sharing this info... |
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But think of how many janitors in America are without representation.
Thank you for the link...
I don't know anything about U of M - would it surprise you to find out that U of M was fined for breaking the law? Would it surprise you that organizers were fired from U of M during this organization effort? (I don't know if this happened, but these are the problems that I am addressing within this OP).
Peace and low stress.
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The2ndWheel
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Mon Jan-08-07 04:25 PM
Response to Original message |
36. How about we scale everything down |
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get rid of these mass consumed, mass produced products, and get something a little different each time? Instead of getting rid of people with automation, lets get rid of CEO's by getting rid of the process by which they accumulate vast fortunes?
Never going to happen, but while we're trying to change the reality, might as well try starting over.
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mdmc
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Mon Jan-08-07 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #36 |
37. power to the people, man. |
LostInAnomie
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Mon Jan-08-07 04:39 PM
Response to Original message |
39. I don't see it working out how you think it will. |
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Back when the labor movement was churning the economic and transportation systems were greatly different than they are today. Before, countries had to deal with trade barriers, and tariffs, and slow transportation made foreign imports costly. Globalization has changed how countries deal economically with each other and improved transportation has made it more feasible to just out-source when the cost of labor cuts into profits.
The minute we would start organizing, after the immediate slashing of our wages, companies would start outsourcing even more heavily. Globalization has turned labor into a race to the bottom, and there is almost nothing we can do to change it. As long as there are people to exploit and transportation to make it feasible to outsource, the working man will always lose out.
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mdmc
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Mon Jan-08-07 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #39 |
51. see, it is okay to lose out |
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and you are right, workers would lose out, at first.
But, Walmart cannot outsource all of its Associates( :eyes: ) - someone has to sell all that third world shit.
Who will be left to buy all of that outsourced shit? The only people that would be able to are those unionized professionals (teachers, doctors, nurses) and union workers (janitors, truck drivers).
The thing is - the corporations need labor, and vice versa. There is a give and a take. It is our time to take.
Once we are in this fight (this fight to end poverty), we are in for a pound. In for a penny, in for a pound.
If the working man always loses out, then it is time to lose out.
Peace and low stress...
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Lilith Velkor
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Mon Jan-08-07 05:54 PM
Response to Original message |
43. Anyone who seriously supports this idea should be beaten to a pulp |
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Since that's what they are wishing on the working class, they should by all means go first. :mad:
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mdmc
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Mon Jan-08-07 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #43 |
52. this is the reality of much of the working class |
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and it needs to change ASAP.
How do we change it? Our current labor laws have absolutely no teeth. That is something to be :mad: about.
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Lilith Velkor
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Tue Jan-09-07 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #52 |
63. Management would rather have no labor laws at all |
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That is the change you are advocating.
Please refrain from trying to bullshit me about how you care about the plight of the working class. Your words have made it abundantly clear which side you are on.
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OnionPatch
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Mon Jan-08-07 06:03 PM
Response to Original message |
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a low-wage, low-skilled employee could ever hope in his wildest dreams to have enough power to tackle the corporations. :eyes: Is this a trick question?
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mdmc
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Mon Jan-08-07 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #45 |
53. one man vs. the machine always loses |
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we need to legalize and protect union organization. Current labor law does not do this. The trick question is Is this the best that America can do for the working poor?
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ck4829
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Mon Jan-08-07 07:12 PM
Response to Original message |
47. NO!!! Management has the Bush Administration on it's side |
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Labor will lose and will set all back about 200 years.
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mdmc
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Mon Jan-08-07 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #47 |
54. perhaps some other party could champion the working poor |
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and stand up to management and the pukes!
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manic expression
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Mon Jan-08-07 07:16 PM
Response to Original message |
50. Abolish private property |
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That solves the problem at its source.
:toast:
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sweetheart
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Mon Jan-08-07 07:57 PM
Response to Original message |
58. I'm for destroying the dollar |
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I've weighed this my whole life, and i feel the only solution for peaceful and christian peoples the world over, is to divest of the dollar and the US dollar economy. It is become criminal, and shifting all investments and approaches out, including new value creation activities, is the only way to teach the beast self control without nuclear weapons.
I'm a loyal opposition american. I would rather not see the country nuked, and with a dollar slide to 1/10th its current value, the militarist beast will be tamed, bankrupt and need to learn a new way in humility.
However painful the consequences, i would wish them 1000 times over radaition clouds.
Would the planet be not better off with a bankrupt petro-empire ?
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mdmc
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Mon Jan-08-07 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #58 |
ourbluenation
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Mon Jan-08-07 11:29 PM
Response to Original message |
62. NO WAY. Duke it out mano e mano at the mercy of right wing courts? |
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The working folks will lose. They already are. Why make it worse.
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mdmc
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Tue Jan-09-07 11:00 PM
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