The dems have grown some balls, sorry ladys for using such a vile expression

[madokie]

but figuratively speaking. Listening to Biden now on cspan3

[Connie_Corleone]

1. No offense. I like balls.

[seabeyond]

4. me too.. wink. especially when a woman wears them. n/t

[azurnoir]

7. on a chain around her neck?

maybe Nancy could replace those pearls with something after all.

[hashibabba]

29. Bush's balls?

[Eurobabe]

2. Big swingin' brass ones. It's about time. And Jim Webb was awesome

he knows the shit they are trying to pull.

[havocmom]

3. Listen to the rest of the DEMS. Biden is just a wind sock

There are some brass ovaries on the Hill too. ;)

[madokie]

8. yes he is, and yes there are. thats where the parts came from

they just can't let Nancy's O's get the best of their b's and in the end we win, Yes

[havocmom]

42. Ah, can't let Nancy's Os best them! Got it...

Behind every great man, there's a woman sort of thing? :rofl:

Can we start calling her Nancy O? Has a nice ring to it ;)

[nofurylike]

5. well, good then, 'cause it really is ALL about boys and their

toys.


why bother apologizing? you're sorry to be *honest* that you're a male-supremacist?

[Occulus]

6. Most of us have gone through enough in life to know that it's just a word.

Would you rather we say they grew mammaries?

[Der Blaue Engel]

10. Everybody's got spines and guts

Words have power.

[nofurylike]

17. well said. "words have power." eom

[Occulus]

23. Too much power over some of us, apparently. n/t

[nofurylike]

27. enough to keep some of us down, yes. care? eom

[VelmaD]

28. of course he doesn't care

It's all about their right to say whatever they want and suffer no social consequences.

Didn't you get the memo? Free speech really only means the right to be an asshole. It doesn't really mean to right to call people on the carpet for it. ;)

[nofurylike]

33. well said, again, VelmaD. i have seen it is true. i still can

not just let it go. i try to walk away, but i am heartsick to find so-called progressives still back there!

sigh


peace!

[Occulus]

36. Not about this, in particular, no. I DON'T care.

I care even less now that you've conflated using the phrase "grew some balls" with "being an asshole".

Like I said elsewhere: skin like tissue paper.

[VelmaD]

38. you've jumped into the middle...

of an ongoing fight that has been played out on DU for a long long time. My basic point almost every time this comes up is the same and is a statement of my beliefs and not directed at any one particular poster...when someone tells you something you said or did is offensive...a decent human being apologizes and doesn't do it again. But when you are told, repeatedly, that something you say or do is offensive and you continue to do it, all the time whining about political correctness and free speech and how oppressed you are because someone told you you were offensive...well, that just makes you an asshole.

And it's so nice to have you on the record that you don't care about how sexism permeates our language and the effect that has on people. It's always good to know who we cannot count on.

[Occulus]

43. No, I just don't care about the phrase "grow a set"

Believe it or not, I've heard women use it. Often.

Usually toward men.

It seems to me you're making mountains out of anthills.

[VelmaD]

46. women are raised in the same sexist culture...

as everyone else and are inculcated with the same sexist language. But way to bring in two of the favorite old standbys... "but women do it, too" and "this isn't that big a deal".

I'm done.

[nofurylike]

47. wow, i wish i could keep your cool and say so well. thank

you, on all our behalf.

[VelmaD]

49. Sad to say, but I have a lot of practice

I survived the "bitch" wars.

I should put that on a t-shirt. *snort*

[nofurylike]

57. i'd get one of the "balls" war tees. "sad to say," is true.

it has been unbelievable.
to see this still happening today is...

sigh...

thank you!

[Dora]

66. YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

There simply isn't enough compassion in the world for peole who are incapable of excising and eliminating sexism from their language. :sarcasm:

After all, only a girly-man (dammit, there I go) is helpless to his (dammit again) sociocultural upbringing that insists only a purse-totin' Nancy (they told me medication would help me with this) would listen to pussy-whipped (I'm helpless, I'm telling you) language nannies (somebody stop me).
:nopity:


(edited for spelling in subject line)

[VelmaD]

69. You Fucking RAWK!

You're my new hero. :yourock:

[Dora]

74. And I was just thinking the SAME OF YOU!

I posted before reading much of the discussion.

Let's enjoy our mutual adulation, shall we? :hug:

[wicket]

113. You both are my heroes!

:D :hug:

[Occulus]

75. Exactly

Next thing you know, they'll be telling us that when the gender isn't known in English, it should read "it's" or "its" or "(s)he" or "h(e)(i)(r)s"...

Incredible, isn't it?

[VelmaD]

78. If you were actually trying to be funny...

you did a good job. *snort*

[Occulus]

81. I was being literal.

I honestly do expect this if you expect me to take you seriously.

Otherwise, you're just being inconsistent.

[VelmaD]

83. what do you think it says about you...

and about our culture that when the gender is unknown we automatically should default to male? Women are routinely expected to identify with the pronoun "he" and with male protagonists and male heroes...but men are almost never expected to identify with women. Why do y'all find that so unsettling?

[Occulus]

86. Because the christian god "is" male?

I'm sorry, but.... I don't see that convention changing anytime soon.

And it doesn't unsettle me in the least to be expected to identify with a woman, or women. In fact, I seem to do that in bed quite regularly...

[VelmaD]

88. jesus christ on a popsicle stick

Are you absolutely sure you aren't being funny on purpose?

[Dora]

90. "identify"

ROFL

[Occulus]

122. Halfway so. That was more truth than levity, though.

I'm honestly having fun watching a (admittedly, inconsequential) phrase generate such controversy.

How about this: I use "grow a set", and you assume I mean ovaries- or vertebrae, or intentines. Would that work?

[Dora]

136. No can do. That's a whole 'nother can of worms.

It's unreasonable to say "milk" and expect the person you're speaking with to infer you mean "iced tea."

[Occulus]

167. edited- read #172

I think I may have misunderstood what, exactly, is being complained about.

[Dora]

175. I certainly can say you didn't try.

You're not trying to "accommodate" anything. That's actually funny. Please don't do me the favor of accommodating me. What you're doing is defending your position, and it's a position that I and others have said to you, "IT'S SEXIST".

In our American cultural experience, the phrase "grow a set" is universally recognized as an invitation to spontaneously generate testicles. Just like the term "brother" is used by some to identify a black man. Just like the term "bitch" is used to identify a woman. Just like "pussy whipped" means a man cowed by a woman, not a man flogged by a feline.

This debate is not going to end. It will continue to haunt you in many forms your entire life. You will have to defend your position until you die, or change.

[Dora]

104. All we're asking for is self-awareness and receptivity to change.

I am a woman who doesn't appreciate it when I hear someone use gender-pejorative figurative language. I admit to being not quite as sensitive to figurative language that's complimentary to gender attributes

I've been working for years on trying to acknowledge my own isms to myself - sexisms, racisms, able-isms. I've found that I'm less and less inclined to use language that enforces these isms when I shine a light on it for myself.

But nonetheless, last night when talking with my husband, I slipped out with a "she" when talking about *hypothetical someone* baking a cake. After saying "she" and finishing my thought, I followed up by remarking to my husband, "That was sexist of me to say that." I can own my sexisms.

Apparently, some people can't.

[VelmaD]

106. You meet my long-standing definition...

of a decent human being.

All of us have prejudices. We live in a society that is permeated with messages, both positive and negative, about different "kinds" or people. We all have thoughts in our heads that would shame us for people to know about them. The mark of who we are as a person is in how we deal with those thoughts. How we work to NOT let them influence how we look at and interact with and deal with our fellow travelers.

When it comes to all those "isms" we have to see it in ourselves first before we can do anything to overcome it.

[Dora]

142. "thoughts in our heads that would shame us"

And that's just it - "thoughts are things," and all that.

Thanks for the validation. Maybe we'll meet at an Austin area DU meetup one of these days.

[VelmaD]

147. you should come to a gathering

The Aunstin DUers RAWK!!!

[Dora]

168. I tried once, but couldn't get out of the house.

I troll the Texas forum every now and then looking to see if there's a gathering happening.

[Occulus]

114. Is being gender specific being gender pejorative? n/t

[Dora]

128. No, it's not. n/t

[Occulus]

137. Then where's the problem?

Why can't men say, OF THEMSELVES, "that guy's got a lotta balls"?

And why can't women say, OF THEMSELVES, "that really took ovaries"?

*I* don't think that sounds so stupid, but isn't that really why so many people use the former and not the latter?

I don't think it boils down to sexual pejoratives at all. I think it boils down to what sounds "right" and what doesn't, and again, that's because so many people have been taught to use "he" when the gender is unknown.

I have to say, I like the idea of using "they" instead, but it's doesn't seem to wok grammatically when there's a singular subject. Of one mouse, are "they" eating?

(It's things like this that, to my mind, make this whole thing very silly.)

ed.: removed unnecessary quote marks

[Dora]

153. That's not the discussion we're having.

The OP used cross-gender figurative language, it was not gender specific.

The OP applied a masculine feature ("balls") to a feminine object (Pelosi). The overt implication of the OP's statement is that "Pelosi is strong," but the subtextual implication is that "Pelosi is strong because she's behaving like a man."

What is silly is that this is real, but so many insist on denying it.

Courage is an asset of character, not biology. Testes and ovaries have nothing to do with it.

And as far as "they" not seeming to work... it does, but we're not used to hearing it that way. It will take practice.

Just like it takes practice to learn how not to say "she has balls" even when you think you're being complimentary.

[Occulus]

172. Whoa, wait a minute

All this time, I thought it was the prase itself we were talking about. Turns out, what's being complained about is HOW IT'S BEING USED.

Why didn't you say so in the first place? I wouldn't ever say to or about a woman "she really has a set of balls!" I *would* say that about a man, though.

Do you have a problem with me saying a MAN "really has a set of balls"? Or is that just as bad?

[VelmaD]

173. I was complaining about the phrase in general

I will reiterate something I've already said on this thread...when "having balls" is equated with being courageous, then not having balls means one is weak. Since women, by definition, don't have balls...they are then percieved as always being weak because they can't "grow a pair".

[Occulus]

183. Fine. You're right, and I'm wrong.

Happy?

[Dora]

179. "Wait a minute" yourself, bub.

Is it "okay" for me to call my boss a bitch, but not for my male coworkers? No, it's not. It's a double standard, and while double standards are okay in parenting, they are unacceptable in the workplace.

You're attempting to divert the argument to one you can win. It's not working.

[Occulus]

184. Fine. You're right, and I'm wrong.

Happy?

[Dora]

87. Oh, so close, but wrong.

"Along with... other authorities, the University of Chicago Press recommends the 'revival' of the singular use of they and their, citing, as do they, its venerable use by such writers as Addison, Austen, Chesterfield, Fielding, Ruskin, Scott, and Shakespeare."

Chicago Manual of Style, 14th edition

[nofurylike]

94. thank you for this helpful info. eom

[VelmaD]

97. I think this is a great move

Most of the people I know have used the singular "they" for quite a while now anyway in speaking and then had to find some other way of writing (which was almost always clunky). I think it more accurately reflects how people talk and use the word...when you just don't know the gender of someone I think most people use "they" rather than "he/she" or something like that.

[nofurylike]

108. i agree. it will help. eom

[Occulus]

125. Shows how long it's been since I took English.

When did that change happen?

[Dora]

130. About 400 years ago. n/t

[Occulus]

144. I looked at the Wiki on the subject,

and while being far from "The Authority" on gender usage in language, it does mention many of the same arguments you're making. I really was taught to use "he" when gender is unknown; obviously, this is no longer the accepted convention. The only reason I don't like using "they" instead is because it conveys the assumption that there are multiples or an entire class being put forth as the example, when there is only one subject:

"They, the homeless person, will collect cans and bottles, etc.,...."
"The teacher will instruct their class upon...."

and so forth.

[Dora]

156. CMS

Chicago Manual of Style, baybee.

In your first example, the sentence simply needs editing. The subject is redundant. The second example is correct, and is music to my ears.

[wicket]

13. How about ovaries?

:shrug:

[Occulus]

20. I'd have no problem with that

which only shows how incredibly hypocritical it is to get upset over someone saying "grew some balls".

Jesus.

[VelmaD]

25. you haven't lived...

in a society where having female reproductive organs was perceived as making a person BETTER than you just because you happened to be born male. Until you've lived the experience of being told every day in big and little ways that your gender makes you inferior...you don't what the hell you're talking about.

[nofurylike]

30. yes. well said. "Until you've lived the experience..." eom

[nofurylike]

21. i once acknowledged that gonads covers all, but those who

have lost either.
courage is just not a physical quality.

i think we ought to consider the reluctance to say courage. i think it is about sexist male-role expectations. i'd think men would get tired of having to keep up the tough thing.

thank you. peace.

[nofurylike]

16. why is saying they have shown courage so difficult? too

emotionally raw for manly folk? not butch enough? juicy enough?

courage is not a physical characteristic.

some of us have lived under male-supremacism/-domination long enough to know it is not just a word.

[Occulus]

19. ........riiiiiight.

Actually, about all it shows is that you have tissue paper for skin.

[VelmaD]

22. and you show...

that you have little or no regard for the feelings and opinions of others

Our language is sexist. Our society is sexist. Women who self-identify as liberals and Democrats have this nasty tendency to point it out and not let it slide, especially when allegedly liberal men perpetuate that sexism. Learn to fucking cope.

[Occulus]

24. Wow, you ended with what I started with n/t

[nofurylike]

26. that is true of many of our daughters. things hurt that much

more when they're children. then those myths set into the self-image.

go see at a school these days, how prevalent is the taunting of girls about balls being superior.

don't care?

[Occulus]

32. Not relevant

We're not talking about kids on a schoolyard; we're talking about adults who should be able to tolerate someone that's not an insult and is not directed at them specifically.

Nice try, though, at making this about kids insulting kids.

Pathetic...

[VelmaD]

34. It is an insult

It has been used as a means of elevating men and putting women down for...well, forever. That you don't see it reflects on you. You've spent your whole life on the side that benefits from male privilege...so why should you bother to see.

[Occulus]

39. And yet.... and yet......

I usually see the phrase "grow a set" directed at men.

Imagine that.

[VelmaD]

41. I usually see or hear it...

used to refer to women who show integrity...most recently Nancy Pelosi or in the Geraldo threatening to fight Keith O thread it was used in reference to Christiane Amanpour. Regardless of who it is used in reference to...the implication is the same. If you do not have balls you are weak. Since women do not have balls...you do the math.

[Occulus]

48. Funny... to me it means "a wimpy man"

Or implies such.

Would "grew some nads" work for your tissue-thin skin?

[VelmaD]

52. you enjoying the name calling

The tissue-thin skin thing has gotten a bit one-note.

As I have stated downthread...there are plenty of non-sexist ways to express this concept...ways that also don't involve peoples' reproductive anatomy, which has nothing to do with courage. Spine. Backbone. Guts. Intestinal fortitude (a personal favorite).

[Occulus]

63. How about you just "learn to fucking cope?" n/t

[VelmaD]

65. oh oh oh...my delicate feelings

I may just go cry. :eyes:

[nofurylike]

37. yeah, you never say it at home or in the outside world, ah?

this is the place we ought to confront it so you do not bring it to those who suffer even more by it.

so, you're of that ilk that thinks it's okay to use slurs as long as you are behind closed doors, in like-minded company?

[Occulus]

67. Actually, I hear it quite often

which is why I can't figure out why it's such a big deal to you. In fact, this is only the second time I've ever heard anyone take offense to it.

The first? Here at DU. So I guess you're making this into a FAR bigger deal than it is out in the real world.

[VelmaD]

73. which part of sexist culture/

sexist language isn't getting through to you?

And maybe the fact that you don't hear it reflects either a) on the people you hang out with or b) your own willingness to actually hear it when someone does compain.

[Occulus]

79. Yeah, they care a little less about this than you do.

Male AND female, across the board. This, in a progressive college town.

Your priorities are WAY the fuck outta whack and YOU are WAY out of touch.

[VelmaD]

80. and we finally come to the big one

You should get to decide for me what I should consider important. :eyes:

Honestly this isn't even close to the biggest thing on my radar. But I refuse to let the little things slide.

[nofurylike]

82. "the real world" does not claim to want consciousness. it is

to DU's credit that any of us here still try.

[sniffa]

70. that's a nice Leap

feeLs Like i just got kicked in the sLurs.

[Occulus]

84. Did you notice how it's only two people complaining?

And how nobody else is jumping in?

Methinks the deafening silence- apart from those two- means they're, as the kids say, "pwn3d".

[VelmaD]

85. looks like your math skills...

aren't any better than your reading comprehension. While two of us may be carrying on the argument with you...there were way more than two posts complaining about the language in the OP. But don't let nasty facts get in the way.

[Mandate My Ass]

93. Well if it makes any difference

and I'm quite certain it won't, it's offensive and your insulting characterizations of those complaining, politely, is moreso. :shrug:

[nofurylike]

96. ty. eom

[Hun Joro]

101. Okay, I'll jump in....

If "grow a set" is all right with you, how do you feel about the phrase "mighty white of you"?

Just wondering....

[VelmaD]

103. good one

You can be one of my new heros too. :yourock:

I grew up in Greenville, Texas...the town with "THE SIGN". Some older folks from Texas will know what I'm talking about. The sign over main street used to say "Welcome to Greenville...the blackest land, the whitest people".

After the civil rights movement got going they changed it to "the greatest people"...but I had to hear whining my whole life from a small, but loud, group of people who just didn't get why the original sign was offensive. "White" just meant "nice" or "decent"...they never could see how associating "white" with those positives would seem to someone who wasn't white skinned.

[Hun Joro]

105. Thank you!

Yep, I'm in Texas, and once in a while I still hear that phrase used...language does matter.

[nofurylike]

111. well said. that is the point. ty. eom

[Occulus]

129. Usually, when that's used at me,

it's crystallized sarcasm. Usually when a "favor" is done that was actually expected, or when a pittance is given instead of mangnanimity. Either way, it makes me feel like I done did wrong... and, usually, rightfully so.

[nofurylike]

116. others who care no longer even bother. proud? eom

[Phillycat]

132. Oh, we're here.

There are lots of us. But trying to argue this shit with your type is an exercise in futility. :banghead: So we silently witness, and update our mental list accordingly.

[Occulus]

174. I didn't realize it was the cross-sexual usage that was being argued about.

Here all this time I thought it was just the phrase itself, when what's really being argued about is how and upon whom it's being used.

I'll use it on men with no worries about it being taken the way this was. But I think I need to say again that I don't and won't use this particular phrase when referring to women.

Now, if it's the phrase being used AT ALL that's at issue, I'm afraid I'll be of no help... I couldn't care less that it's used- when speaking of men. It doesn't even make sense when applied to women...

[file83]

131. I like to say the Men finally grew some OVARIES!!!

Because we all know that's where wisdom comes from. Balls are for a street fight, Ovaries work better for the brain.

[hlthe2b]

9. not offended here.. you could say "grew a spine"--gender neutral.

But, as long as they start standing up to these liars, I'm ok with most any description...

[GreenPartyVoter]

15. Yep, spine works for everyone. Except invertebrates, but that

only includes Repubs. :rofl:

[loyalsister]

185. Or people with spinal cord injuries?

C'mon, what is the actual concept we are trying to refer to that EVERYONE can have in common?
Let's keep naming as many synonyms as we can.
Courage, bravery, valor, gallantry....
This is not that difficult.

[Bluerthanblue]

11. that's ok, we women have balls, they're just on the inside-

being a single mother of sons, you learn this well.

[VelmaD]

12. "I don't mean to be offensive but..."

I call bullshit. You realized you were gonna offend some people and said it anyway. There are any number of gender neutral ways you could have expressed the exact same sentiment...but you CHOSE not to...which says a lot about you.

[wicket]

14. Amen

n/t

[Annces]

35. Hear, hear

It is good to see someone speaking out on this. Some things won't change unless someone makes a point of it.

(A local nature center I just visited has classes for boys and girls run by girl scouts and boy scouts, and low and behold the image on the brochure is of 2 boys, and the boys classes are much more in-depth. This crap is still going on).

[nofurylike]

40. thank you for saying it so clearly. eom

[Zookeeper]

115. Yeah, and "Ladys" (sic) is kind of a slap, too. n/t

[nofurylike]

118. ty saying that. i felt that too. eom

[otherlander]

143. Better to say what you mean

than to try not to offend anyone. (Which is impossible.)

[VelmaD]

148. why not do both?

In this instance it was easy to get the point across without using sexist language. Several other posters have brought up several suggestions for alternative ways of expressing the same concept without insulting anyone.

[VelmaD]

18. you still have time to edit your OP

so that you don't look like such an ass.

I find that I still have something to say on this. You would never in a million years see someone start a post in GD with "No offense to blacks, but..." and then say something racist. Why is it ok to do it to women?

[northernsoul]

31. "Intestinal Fortitude" and "Spinal Column" are also good terms

and, luckily, they belong to all women and men of good courage.

[Beaverhausen]

44. I think it's the estrogen that has kicked in.

Why don't you get it? It's the women who are going to change things.

the mothers and grandmothers.

the Sheehans and the Pelosis.


Move over boys, time for women to take over!!!

[nofurylike]

51. well said. eom

[VelmaD]

54. have to disagree here as well

Hormones, gender, gonads, whatever...has NOTHING to do with courage, integrity, and fortitude. While I understand and appreciate where you're coming from...I know how those who insist on their right to use sexist language will spin comments like this. If we don't believe they are better just because they are men...then we can't insist we are better just because we're women.

[nofurylike]

72. irony. in terms or war and peace, we have shown to be

better suited to peace-making. it's evolved in us, in our creating the humans who stand to be killed in wars.

but i will concede - as we so often do for peace - that turnabout is unfair.


peace

[VelmaD]

77. I don't know that I buy it...

the whole women are more peaceful thing. Even if it is true...how much of that is cultural conditioning? Would it be true if we were actually left alone to be ourselves?

[nofurylike]

89. it is anthropologically established. but i do yield that being

overly fair is what it takes.
i will not slur back any more (trying to show them what it feels like hasn't worked), if they will try to get what we're saying, show compassion for what it's been like, and stop doing it - maybe even try reeducating others on this, especially their sons.

[VelmaD]

92. one of the saddest things to me...

about out culture, is how it doesn't encourage empathy, particularly in boys and men...and it's getting to where it really doesn't expect it of anyone. I doubt too many of the hard-core problem posters on this issue will try to "get it" and even "showing them what it feels like" doesn't work because they aren't really willing (or able) to take that next step and realize that the feelings they feel...well, you have them too.

I'm rambling...I know. I just work in juvenile correction in an agency where trying to build empathy in kids who have never seen it modeled for them before is a core part of what we do.

[nofurylike]

100. you express it all very well. it is important. and where you

are working, it is even more urgently important.

one thing many men seem not to want to look at is that sex role stereotypes place unfair burden on them too.

thank you so much for your clarity. please always ramble on!


peace and solidarity

*edit spelling

[Lone_Star_Dem]

45. Spines!

It's gender neutral and men no longer wield all the power due to their birth gender.

[nofurylike]

76. its universality does have a refreshing ring! eom

[TayTay]

50. Some have indeed shown testicular fortitude lately.

Much appreciated.

What a great, great day for democracy and for the whole concept of real checks and balances.

[VelmaD]

53. oh good grief

You had to go there? You couldn't use "intestinal fortitude"?

[TayTay]

55. LOL! I like that term.

It's harmless. I have used it at 'mixed gatherings' and always gotten a chuckle.

I would also like 'ovarian fortitude' as well. Certainly Sen. Boxer had that today.

[nofurylike]

91. sigh... eom

[Connie_Corleone]

56. And thus the thread devolves into a battle of the sexes. nt

[VelmaD]

59. which given the way the OP was phrased...

was likely the whole point anyway *sigh*

[nofurylike]

102. it was opened as one, by the OP. eom

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

58. They've Grown Balls Indeed!!!

My God is CSPAN sooooooooo much more fun now. :)

[Connie_Corleone]

62. Now, you're gonna get it.

:spank:

[VelmaD]

64. well, for him it won't be...

the first time

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

126. But From You, It Will Be The Last. n/t

[piedmont]

Is that a reference to blocking?

OMC, I generally enjoy your posts, even when I disagree with you. But if you're in a thread about balls, er guts, or spines, and blocking posters you don't agree with 'cause you don't have requisite anatomy-du-jour to argue with them, well, you've lost some of my respect. Please don't start the first Block-war.

[Rosemary2205]

60. For Pelosi/Sheehan etc it's "grew some ovaries".

:) Hey, nothing wrong with testicular fortitude though!

[VelmaD]

61. self deleted

misread your post

[Rosemary2205]

68. Dang - bet I missed a fun 1st post though! :):) nt

[VelmaD]

71. I missed the subject...

and just saw the message text...went a little nuts...then re-read and left really fucking stupid. :)

[durrrty libby]

121. I’ve always found the phrase---he has balls or grow a set,

kind of silly
I do agree it’s sexist, but it just can’t mean what people
want it to mean

I think any male will tell you that this area on their body is extremely vulnerable,

and one of the first parts they protect when threatened.

So having “a set” can leave one exposed, weak and defenseless.

It’s a bad phrase all around. Personally, I like spine or guts


:freak: :yoiks:

[BlueIris]

95. Offensive language aside--THEY ALWAYS HAD FORTITUDE.

Now they have leverage. THERE WAS NOTHING WRONG WITH THIS PARTY BEFORE, we simply didn't have enough seats.

[nofurylike]

124. ty for the excellent segue back. i agree. must go. TY! eom

[otherlander]

151. Not when so many of them voted to go into Iraq.

Or suspend habeus corpus.

[devilgrrl]

98. Why can't people just use the term "GUTS"?

both men and women have them.

[VelmaD]

99. I think it has to do...

with the bottom body part on your graphic...as in some people have their head there. :)

[Occulus]

133. Honestly, though, if we DID always use "guts" instead,

women would have more of them than men. I know it's a totally different system of the body, but honestly... couldn't the female reproductive system be said to reside in the "gut", and, if so... doesn't that mean women have more guts than men?

No snark. You can have pregnancy and everything associated with it. I don't think I'd ever want to go through labor or give birth; even though my sister had three children of her own, that's one experience I can live without.

Not that it's not a wonderful thing, to bring a life into the world... but you can have all that wonder for yourselves. I've heard enough stories about long, hard labor to ever want to do it myself...

That takes more guts than I'll ever have.

[Ian_rd]

107. Why not say "colon sigmoideums." We both have those too.

:)

Pelosi's got some brass colon sigs!

[devilgrrl]

109. I'm going to narrow it down to "Jejunum"....

that's the part of the digestive system I meant.

:P

[VelmaD]

110. Well, while that terms hasn't been historically used...

to mean courage or fortitude...I'm willing to help you get it into common usage. From now on whenever I'm really impressed with someone, they've really got "brass colon sigmoideums". C'mon people...who's with us? :)

[Ian_rd]

119. It starts now! With us!

:silly: :dunce: :spray:

[Zookeeper]

112. I hope they haven't grown balls. Balls are so fragile and...

in need of constant protection.

I think a spine would be much more useful.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

123. seconded, thats exactly what i wrote before i read this.

courage shouldnt be compared to balls since balls are notorious for being pain sensitive.

[izzybeans]

117. Would referring to them as the Pelosi Pearls be too much innuendo?

Wow that Webb sure has some Pelosi Pearls, eye Senator?

[deepthought42]

164. HAHAHA!!!

:rofl:

I don't know, I tend to have a dirty mind...either way I hope they continue to kick some repuke ass!

[La Lioness Priyanka]

120. the phrase isnt vile its sexist. &stupid since balls are known for not being able to tolerate pain.

the democrats are being more outspoken and courage. go pelosi!!!

[nofurylike]

127. off, but must first say, well said. eom

[bluewave]

134. This is the kind of shit that turns people off

We're celebrating our ascendancy, right? WHY ARE WE ARGUING ABOUT BALLS???

[VelmaD]

141. Well, some of us aren't able to celebrate precisely because...

the sexism doesn't abate long enough to let us. I would much rather be talking about Iran or about us taking control of the Congress or about the weird bird deaths recently. I care about a lot of important shit. But I care about how sexism permeates our culture and language and how even liberal men don't seem to be able (or sometimes willing) to try to move past it. So we're arguing about it because some people, who know it's offensive, like the OP who acknowledged it was insenitve language...won't stop doing it.

[bluewave]

150. Most people (hint: voters) hit the "ignore" button when they hear PC to this degree

Including me. Men have testosterone. It makes them aggressive, frequently overaggressive. It's just a saying relating one to the other. Most people (voters) would be turned off by this kind of lecture over something so meaningless.

Much ado about nothing. This phrase will see continued use despite protests. Maybe we can worry about real sexism.

[VelmaD]

154. do you understand the irony...

of a man telling women what "real sexism" is? :eyes:

You packed a lot of oldies but goodies into one short post. Over-reacting? Check. PC? Check. Not "real sexism"? Check.

[bluewave]

162. I dunno, equal pay for equal work seems to dwarf this insignificant

argument. Yet I see more vigor poured into this semantical battle, and not one thread about the other.

On this point, haven't you seen all the commercials with clueless/insensitive men? These men do ridiculous, stereotypical things like (among the thousands) worshiping a magical beer fridge. I could be offended by this, but instead I laugh because I'm not overly sensitive.

[VelmaD]

170. Do you honestly think...

I don't pour a lot of energy into other feminist causes as well? Contrarty to what you seem to believe, most of us are capable of multi-tasking and caring about and working on more than one issue at a time. We are talking about and putting energy into this today because it popped up...again...for the brazillionth time...today. Dealing with the little things is a part of dealing with the bigger issues of sexism. This isn't just about one phrase...it's about the sexism that permeates our language and our society. It has to be addressed too.

BTW, I have complained about the clueless man stereotype as much as anyone. I don't like it because it gives you all societal permission to be useless.

[bluewave]

176. Well you can stop protesting about the male stereotype

because we are NOT OFFENDED. We are portrayed as: insensitive, ignorant, obsessed with sports, slaves to women, obsessed with sex, lacking basic hygiene, etc. And it's funny. I don't take it seriously.

Multi-tasking? AFAIK, women are better at multi-tasking than men from an anatomical perspective due to the structure of their brains.

[VelmaD]

177. You obviously don't understand one of the main reasons...

the male stereotype bothers me. While I am offended on y'all's behalf generally and on behalf of the many men I know who ARE offended by the stereotype...part of my concern is also on behalf of women. The male stereotype often lets y'all get away with things that hurt women. You're stereotyped as useless..therefore women have to cook and clean up after you and basically take care of all the mundane details of daily life. You're stereotyped as incapable of controlling yourselves...so blame for rape is placed on women because we should KNOW you can't control yourselves.

[bluewave]

187. Ack. This comes from education, imo.

I don't think a balls reference = excusing rape, or anything else serious. Men and women who excuse rape as "boys will be boys" do it out of ignorance. Education is the key to fighting these stereotypes.

I hope I'm not giving the impression I find women fit to perform mundane tasks. They were forced to in previous centuries due to the difficulty raising children. An unfortunate biological burden, but we've found ways around it today.

I don't really want to continue this, since there are articles I want to read. I don't think this is a very big deal. I don't find women inferior. I just think balls is a reference to age-old male aggression, which is supported by science anyway.

Good day.

[Mandate My Ass]

158. Ahh. Argumentum ad populum

Most people are assholes, so being an asshole is cool. :eyes:

[bluewave]

166. What about all the commercials showing clueless/stupid men?

Doing dumb things with beer, women, etc? Isn't that a male stereotype? Instead of bitching about the stereotypical difference between men and women I laugh.

[Gormy Cuss]

163. "this kind of shit" doesn't turn off anyone who is considerate of others.

The OP used an expression that he expected would offend some women for whatever reason (perhaps the coarseness of the language or the sexism, or perhaps some other reason.) Getting a negative reaction is therefore to be expected. As many female and male posters have pointed out, our language has other expressions that mean the same thing and either "growing a spine" or "having intestinal fortitude" would have conveyed the same message without turning the thread into an argument about "balls."

As to celebrating our ascendancy, implying that a lack of spine was the only thing inhibiting the Dems in Congress ignores the limitations of the minority party, especially when the executive branch is also controlled by the majority party.

[crispini]

135. .

For the record: It's sexist, and you were stupid for phrasing it this way on DU of all places.

[WindRavenX]

138. for someone who can't even spell the plural of "lady"...

...you might want to think your OP.

[Name removed]

139. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SPKrazy]

140. How Is It Different From Calling Out DU'ers

for either of you to announce blocking or being blocked?

I'm thinking this is going to be an interesting time on DU as we transition to this new ignore/blocking feature.

[VelmaD]

146. The way I read some of the admin posts yesterday...

they almost encouraged this kind of thing. If you're blocked in a discussion and you have something to say the answer given was to start another thread about it. But how can you do that without everyone knowing the reason you had to do it was because you were blocked.

Plus, I told Skinner how I was going to react to this. I told him it would happen. It took less than 24 hours to happen. If I get in trouble...so be it. I've been in trouble before. :)

[SPKrazy]

159. Hmmmmm

I've been blocked by someone but I've been careful not to mention them.

Strangely enough they PM'd me to tell me why.

:pals:

[piedmont]

169. I think it's entirely appropriate to announce it.

If someone wants to air a viewpoint, they should have to defend it from opposing views. If they choose to block those views from being seen, it should be made known to all by-standers. There has to be a dis-incentive to blocking or we'll devolve into Cliques-Underground

[SPKrazy]

178. Interesting View

and I don't disagree with it

my blocking was done by someone who told me it for personal reasons

totally different I guess

not really a viewpoint exchange issue, but an issue of a personal nature.

[piedmont]

181. weird reason to block!

I dunno what to say! :shrug:

[SPKrazy]

186. Ehhhhhhh!

she has her reasons and I won't question them

[dogday]

145. Skinner has made the decision

he is well within the rules to do so.. I don't know if calling out another member is though..

[VelmaD]

152. Under most circumstances I wouldn't have said anything...

but I'm making an exception for now when it comes to this particular reason for blocking. As I stated above, I may get in trouble. I'm willing to take the lumps from the mods/admins if that's the case. I think it's worth it. I brought up this concern repeatedly in the pinned thread on the change and it was never addressed.

I just got told over and over again that people would use the block feature responsibly rather than to limit debate.

[dogday]

155. I understand that and I believe

that is something that you need to explore further with Skinner, and let him see for himself, how this new feature will either help or hinder our debates...

I did not post my concerns about debate being hindered by this new feature, but there are some.:hi:

[VelmaD]

160. Skinner and I have had some really good discussions...

over the years about sexism on DU...believe it or not it's a lot better than it used to be most days. I imagine he and I will end up talking a lot about this new feature as well.

[dogday]

165. Well good then

tell him I said :hi:

[wicket]

149. Don't let them get to you

:hug:

[VelmaD]

157. Oh, I'm laughing my ass off...

but I appreciate the hug. Hugs are always good. :hug:

[Zookeeper]

180. I did notice...

and it had a tone of "Nyah-nyah! Look what I can do!" to it. I think you were correct to point it out in this instance.

I have a feeling that the most insulting posters will be the first to start blocking people who disagree with them.

[SaveOurDemocracy]

161. Have you ever noticed how ugly intolerance is

no matter which direction it comes from?

[dogday]

171. I have to second this thread

I see that as well....

[RandomKoolzip]

182. I have only two words to say about this thread:

"Udo Dirkshneider."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HS4fvl9Xh2g

[VelmaD]

188. Did you know that much of Accept's music...

was written by their manager...who was a woman? I'm full of useless trivia. :)

[RandomKoolzip]

190. I find that easy/difficult to understand.

I always assumed that Udo was gay...in fact, I like their music better that way. :)

[Dastard Stepchild]

189. Yeah... in general, I hate the balls reference as well...

I am pretty rough and tough, and have absolutely no balls to speak of. It doesn't make me seethe, but it is a slight irritation, like a little piece of sand caught in between my toes.

Why does everything have to be about a man's testicles? :)

[wakemeupwhenitsover]

191. I'm going to lock this.

It's become round after round after round of personal attacks.

For a complete list of DU rules on civility please read: http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules_detailed.html

best,
wakemeupwhenitsover
DU Moderator