Can we compare him to Hitler yet without invoking Godwin's law?

[Az]

Just asking. :shrug:

[uppityperson]

1. I don't know what Godwin's law was but I have done so today

He has gone over any and all lines. damn him and those supporting him. Hitler, yes.

[LSK]

Godwins law

When one invokes the comparison of Hitler, they have lost the argument.

LSK's exemption:
Except when you talk about a leader who lies to invade numerous countries.

[Az]

4. Godwin's Law

Is a law that came from the internet. It states that in any debate that grows increasingly devisive if one party invokes Hitler or the Nazis in comparison to the opposition they automatically lose the debate. This law has proven to be true in that once such a comparison has been made there is little more that can be discussed due to the emotions the Nazis and Hitler generate.

[PATRICK]

9. When both sides break a law

then in this case how is winning determined? Uncomfortable about these 'easy wins" when the truth gets too close for the technicality clause, the right wing could not resist- ny its nature- using it themselves.

In this case, now, we are back to the truth arbiter or the power arbiter. Truth means measuring facts, defining the points of comparison and limitations of analogy and the ever more damning direct historical and personal connections. Power means those who have the club or bully pulpit get to make the insults.
Power passes. Truth abides. So if the shoe fits don't shelve it. Why postpone walking?

The comparisons to Hitler and fascism are broad and the differences not flattering either(such as angry war veterans being part of nutty backbone of fascism versus chickenhawk oligarchs in America). The financial connections and support are intimate and of historical lineage as well. Those are more important than the insult factor and never get their proper play. Godwin's rule is that the insult factor distracts from the reality. That at least is still the case.

You can stick your tongue out at the teacher or prove him wrong. Teacher's upset either way, so do it right.

[LSK]

10. angry war veterans = nutty backbone of fascism????

Huh?????

[PATRICK]

16. The losing generals

Hitler, all developed dark conspiratorial world views based on defeat and resentment. The majority who likely developed bitter distrust of authority and war eventually were victimized all over again by "this time we'll do it right" thinking. Stranbgely in our nation it is people with little military training or knowledge at all who armchair Rambo their way into foreign policy. In fact, the Germans DID do it better and learned the consequences of more success were greater failure. Our peerless leaders with greater supremacy have quickly driven the world's mightiest war machine into the desert sand.

I apologize for the broad remark, but specifically I was thinking of what the WWI defeat stress brought out in some generals and some traumatized German veterans. The industrialist right wing changed not at all except an emotional element of revenge took natural root there. Our own veterans' reactions have been attempted to fold into backing new right wing war leaders, but they have been kept away from the true centers of our contemporary RW power. Considering how the Armed Forces have been indoctrinated into conservative modes of thought and brought into the revolving career doors of war contractors, it is amazing how few are visible in political power centers. The populist wave of veterans likewise is nothing like postwar Germany. Nor is the military dominated by hereditary aristocrats or specifically, totally anti-democratic leaders. I should have refrained from treading upon the sensibilities of either American or German war veterans as a class, apples and oranges historically though they may be. This is a classic example of quick, often insulting comparisons derailing what should be a thoughtful study.

The problem is the alarming consequences being repeated now are more than academic, one side emotionally drowning and the other drily diluting the dangerous trajectory of tyranny or right wing movements through the ages. The forms that anger takes can be all over the spectrum and are.

[LSK]

17. ok, good explanation

Thanks

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

2. Godwin's law doesn't apply...

when he really is a mass murderer.

[MoseyWalker]

3. uh

hell yes.

[Solon]

5. You are all wrong about Godwin's law...

This is ALL it states: "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."

It says nothing about the VALUE of such a comparison, just the probability that it will be made when a discussion gets longer.

[TahitiNut]

11. Absolutely correct. I get so FUCKING tired of the perversion of Godwin's Law.

No matter how many times people are corrected in their misstatement, the density of their skulls seems to prevent them from hearing.

Godwin's law says NOTHING about "winning" or "losing" an argument. Nothing!

Godwin's law says nothing about whether the Nazi/Hitler reference is apt or not.

Godwin's Law is predictive, NOT prescriptive!

:grr:

Indeed, the oft-stated perversion of Godwin's Law is 100% contrary to Mike Godwin's entire reason for formulating it - he argues that overuse of the Hitler/Nazi reference makes the frightening case where it really IS appropriate less meaningful ... in other words, the very fact that some cling to the notion that the mere reference makes one a "loser" merely ASSISTS the subterfuge of fascism in quashing legimitmate concerns about the grwoth of that very cancer! In short, he was concerned ti was like crying "Wolf!" where the population ignored it when it was for real. Thus, those who pervert it and attempt to claim a 'win' are, in fact, suppressing the very real case when it may be very necessary to be alert to the rise of fascism.

[Az]

12. It is a corralary of the law

That once the comparison has been made the discussion is effect over with the one having made the comment effectively losing the debate.

[Solon]

13. The Quirk's exception kicks in and Godwin's law is invoked in the NORMAL original manner...

Also, the law doesn't apply to Genocide, Propaganda, or other techniques of the Nazi Regime.

[TahitiNut]

14. That's nothing but a post hoc attempt at face-saving by peddlers of the perverted version, imho.

That's why I tried (mightily and. apparently, fruitlessly) to explain WHY even the pretense of using it prescriptively is contrary to Mike Godwin's intent in formulating it. A corrolary to any law cannot and must not be contrary to that law's core, imho.

[Az]

18. Sorry but it has long been associated with the law

The observation has been proven true repeatedly. Once the comparison to Hitler is made the coversation deteorates rapidlly with the bulk of the audience siding against the person that made the comment.

[RoyGBiv]

23. Thank you ...

My head was about to explode.

There's a corollary that states the first person to do so has lost the debate by default, but that never gained wide acceptance, obviously.

[uppityperson]

6. According to descriptions above, Yes.

When it applies, it applies and no one loses except those who go along for the sake of not making waves or laziness/not wanting to think.

[JohnyCanuck]

7. Well Hitler actually didn't shirk combat duty (in WW I),

which is more than you can say for Chimpy and his brief service (before going AWOL) in a champagne ANG unit.

[C_U_L8R]

8. Bush is an idiot without comparison

a hateful small man who, if we survive, will wash away into obscurity

[madrchsod]

15. he`s not hitler and he`s not even close

the only comparison i can see is that in their final days both were living in a delusional world where they thought they still commanded grand armies and weapons that would push the enemy into the sea. they both surrounded themselves with loyal and trusted believers in their vision of their world of the future.bush will face each day for the rest of his natural life knowing he has failed in everything he has ever done

[LynnTheDem]

20. He most certainly is following in Hitler's footsteps; let's hope to hell

he doesn't get any closer.

Or shall we only compare the two fascist pricks when bush's bodycount hits X many millions?

I'd much rather we face the parallels now and stop the bastard long before that.

[Kelly Rupert]

19. No.

Don't be ridiculous.

[Hippo_Tron]

21. It's an invalid comparison

Hitler actively killed millions of people. Bush sits around and watches people die and says, "not my problem."

[Anarcho-Socialist]

22. In theory yes...

...but one's historical comparisons need to be right on the money, without dubious anachronisms. Most people fail miserably.

A typical failed analogy is when person X says "Bush is a Nazi" or "neocons are Nazis." Two different ideological systems each ugly in their own right are brought together and counted as one despite their inherent differences. Comparisons in this context tend to be lazy.