On CNN: Rep. Charles Rangel says if we had a draft, we wouldn't be in Iraq.

[muntrv]

[EdwardM]

1. Well, I'd rather not test that theory.

It only took about 6 years of a draft during the Vietnam Era to pull out.

[Nite Owl]

5. Rangle's idea of a draft is

quite different. No one would be exempt. That means those young repukes that think this war is so great sitting at their keyboards, they would be in Iraq instead. The ones who vote for these wars, their kids would be going along with that vote. Things would be quite different, we wouldn't be going to war because some think tank thought it was a good idea to increase their investments portfolios.

[ContraBass Black]

7. And I, who have been fighting this disaster since before it began, could be there too.

[originalpckelly]

9. No, all a draft would do is give these people more and more people to kill.

That's it.

Bush isn't listening to anyone, that means more people would be out there dying.

[EdwardM]

18. I hate to break it to you but...

There is no such thing as a fair draft. The millionaires will find their way out of the draft, or into a national guard job like Bush got no matter what the bill would say. you cannot legislate fairness.

[Nite Owl]

31. I don't think he expects any draft to pass

but this is the point he is making. He's pointing out the whole unfairness of a 'volunteer' army. It isn't volunteer when it's the only way to get money for college or a paycheck, not for most anyway. It's to make people think.

[zeemike]

38. It may be true there is o such thing as a fair draft

But there is such a thing as a mercenary army run by a corporate oligarchy. And that is what we have and we would be wise as a Nation to get rid of it if we still can.

[Hubert Flottz]

41. I think Charlie Rangle is right.

The Right wingers need to put up or shut up. How can anyone who "SUPPORTS THE TROOPS" ask someone to serve four out of five years in combat? It's exactly what the pResident has done here.

[HughBeaumont]

Right, we'd be in Iran . . .

and wherever else Lancelot Link and Corpsegrinder Cheney would want to send cannon fodder for "democracyin'".

[hansberrym]

30. you got that right nt

[Imagevision]

2. If Bush attacks Iran, we will have a draft!!!

[originalpckelly]

3. Hey, you know what, if Rep. Rangel would introduce an anti-war resolution...

we wouldn't be in Iraq either.

I think he has a point about not serving, but I don't think the solution is to give war-mongers more people to kill. We ought not be involved in any war unless under immediate danger. It should be a choice to fight with our country or fight alone, not a choice of whether or not to fight. We shouldn't be in any war where cowards are unwilling to fight.

[Cleita]

4. I have to disagree. The draft didn't keep us out of Korea or

Vietnam. What it did do was spread military duty across all classes and income groups.

[originalpckelly]

8. What?

"What it did do was spread military duty across all classes and income groups."

You need to put a :sarcasm: tag on that one.

[Cleita]

13. No I don't. I know * evaded duty as the son of a President,

but John Kerry served in Vietnam, something I don't see any of his children doing today. The best way back then to get out of active duty was to be 4F, get a college deferment or be the father of four or more children. (This is how John Wayne evaded duty in WWII, even though he played a marine or other type of military in the movies, he never was in the military.)Hey, even Elvis had to do his military duty. He was fortunate that it was peacetime.

If you signed up for the other services you wouldn't get drafted. This is how many were able to evade war but not the service, and how many of the lucky ones or ones with influential families were able to get in the National Guard or the Coast Guard, which had a waiting list of those wanting to enlist, to avoid combat but they couldn't avoid service. Yet many a rich boy did have to do combat.

So even though the draft wasn't entirely as equal as we would have liked, it was a lot more equal than it is now. Today our military is largely made up of the poor and minorities. It was not so when we had a draft.

[Erika]

16. I see none of the Bush family serving. None.

At least Kerry and McCain had the courage, class, and dignity to serve. They weren't drafted.

[Cleita]

22. That was a technicality back then. If you joined one of the other

services, like the AF, Navy etc., then it was considered doing your military duty. If you didn't you got drafted into the army. Many guys joined the Navy thinking that they wouldn't see action, yet many of them did just like Kerry did in Cambodia. I mean it wasn't volunteering. It was a choice between the lesser of two evils.

[Erika]

28. Why do you pleasure in downing men who actually served

But ignore the likes of Cheney and W who could have cared less?

[Cleita]

29. I'm not downing anyone. I'm only stating how things were.

I'm not taking any pleasure in these statements, thank you. I would love to paint rosy pictures for you but that would be a lie. Men joined the other services so they wouldn't have to go into the army. It was a known deal and no one was ashamed of admitting it. Recruiters even told them it was a way of not going into the army. If the other services rejected them, then they had no choice but to go into the army. Yes, Kerry and McCain served nobly when they were in combat. No one is taking that away from them.

Cheney and * are nothing more than chicken hawks and they aren't fooling anyone. I think we are all in agreement here, but don't read things into my posts that aren't there.

[zeemike]

21. He is right it did

do you know that the older Kennedy bro. died in WW2 when he volunteered for a dangerous mission flying a bomber. And JFK was sunk on a PT boat in the Pacific. And that GHW Bush was a pilot that bailed out of his plain leaving his crew man to parrish? (yes some of the rich are cowards but so are the poor)Most of the baseball players were in the service and same for actors and the kids of the rich.
And as late as the sixties when I was in the rich kids did serve, at least some of them I know because I bunked with them.
That ain't gonna happen in todays Corporates run military.

[Erika]

10. No, that's not how it was

The rich kids in college could get a deferment, then they said boys who were married could seek a deferment.

As Dick Cheney, and I mean Dick , said "He had other priorities than the Vietnam War".

[originalpckelly]

11. I know, these pro-drafters are so full of shit...

and completely out of touch. The draft helped Vietnam continue, not end it.

[Cleita]

17. Really, and who said I am pro-draft?

Do you have a problem with someone stating the facts as they were back then? I had eight male cousins of draft age back then. My address book was packed with APO addresses for me to keep in touch with them and send them packages. They all did military service eventually, no matter how much they tried to use the system's loopholes. I know exactly how it worked.

[pampango]

36. Interesting point. The draft did fuel protests that eventually led to an end

to the Vietnam War. But would it have ended years earlier without a draft and the huge number of fresh soldiers that gave the politicians and generals to play with? Wouldn't the military have ground to a halt much sooner, as it is in the process of doing now in Iraq, through endless rotations of exhausted troops?

[Cleita]

15. You didn't have to be rich to get a college deferment.

Californians, who at the time could attend college or university tuition free, could get deferments regardless of their economic status as long as they kept their grades up. It didn't mean that they didn't eventually have to. Many guys really stretched out their college years getting additional degrees and such trying to get out of military service. If in those years they married and had four children then they were off the hook.

[Erika]

20. They were the exception

Kind of like Dick Cheney, he had other "priorities". I always thought that was a slap in the face to vets.

[Cleita]

25. Cheney used the loopholes that everyone else tried to use

as well and he got away with it, maybe because of persistence. It wasn't easy to get that many deferments so who knows, whom he knew who could pull strings for him. Not everyone was able to do that.

[Erika]

27. Cheney was a GOP suckass

Just like W volunteering at an Alabama GOP campaign while supposedly being in the Guard.

Everyone else did NOT try to use them. Look at Kerry and McCain.

[valerief]

6. He's right. There would be so many draft-age people protesting,

the Air Force wouldn't be able to zap them all with their microwave crowdbuster weapons.

[zeemike]

12. I think you anti draft folks should take the time to listen and think

That old man knows what he is talking about.
Do you relies that the largest problem we have now is that the military has been privatized and is largely in the hands of some powerful major corporations.
I heard a caller on Randy Rhodes that said her son was training to be a pilot in the air force and the BASE was run by Lockheed Martin.,Her complaint was that the instructors were teaching religion to the students, but that is pale by compassion to the fact the a corporation was running the functions of the military.
I tell you we should be alarmed at this and we should really consider to returning the military to the way it was in the fifties after WW2. I served in that kind of military and so did Wrangle as an enlisted man and it did me no harm. Although I admit the pay was low I always had a place to sleep, warm clothes and plenty to eat.
But mostly we all served together and had the same experience as the rich and poor among us. And then we considered it a duty to serve not a job.

[Erika]

14. Eisenhower warned against the military industrialized complex

The Bushbots, in their ignorance, said "Yes" to the corporatization of wars for profit by th rich at the cost to the poor.

[Cleita]

26. Well, said. The younger people here don't realize that

today's military is very different from the one of the fifties and sixties where everyone, no matter of their social or economic status, had to serve together side by side.

[Lilith Velkor]

32. How does forcing people into today's military hurt the corporations?

That just gives them more free labor.

I'm sorry, but you can't bring back the '50s. Your generation chose Reagan, and these are the consquences with which we must deal.

[zeemike]

37. You don't understand why the corporations are there.

It is because we outsourced the functions of the military that used to be preformed by enlisted men.
In the old Military one would get stationed at a base and you would almost never encounter a civilian. Everything on that base was run by enlisted men making a low wage. and the military was completely self contained and mostly mobil.
But the change actually started during Viet Nam with Johnson who started turning over some of the duties to civilian workers. I was one of them and I was an E4 enlisted man and was replaced by a GS5 that made more than three times as much as me, and I had to train him to take my job. The reason Johnson gave for doing this was to "free more men for duty in Viet Nam".
Now whole bases are run by major corporations and because you and others know noting of how it was and how it is now you can see noting wrong with it. Well there is a lot wrong with it and Because the present generation si so removed from service they will never know until martial law is called and we realize that our military does ot belong to the people but to the corporate oligarchy.

[zeemike]

40. Then don't complain about going to war for oil.

But I do not want to force anyone into todays military, in fact I recommend that no one join, but knowing that some may have to for economic reasons. and others just because they can kill and destroy for the fun of it.
What I want is to return to a service military where all serve whether they are pacifist or not, in some way, to protect the freedom of our democracy 9 and is loyal to the people not the corporation that pays them) and not the freedom of the corporations to exploit the world as it is now.
We have created a beast that is let louse on the world with no moral purpose or compass
and you will pay for it whether you know it or not yet. But My generation is finished, and it is yours that will have to decide which way it will go, and I fear for you and your children if nothing is done to control this beast.

[Lilith Velkor]

43. What we need to do is revoke their charters and confiscate the money they stole

A draft would only make that exponentially more difficult.

Rangel is a dangerous fool, and the fact that a plurality of Democrats seem to buy into his bullshit suggests to me that our population is so dumbed down fascism may be inevitable.

However, nothing is written. Perhaps we'll meet at the barricades after all.

[zeemike]

44. I would like to see the look on your face

When the army was sent in to arrest those that were trying to revoke the charter of the corporation that owned the contract for running the army.
After all it would make you a terrorist and a threat to american interests.
So before you do it I would suggest having an army of volunteers that have pledged allegiance to the people not the corporation, and promised to uphold the constitution. Just like we had during WW2 made up of people from all walks of life that wanted to protect or nation from an aggressor that planed to invade and take over this country.
Well the take over has come from within and there is no one there to stop them. and they got you to pay for it all with your tax dollar.../Prety slick i think.

[Lilith Velkor]

46. They'd have to pass a law to do that

If they wanted to detain people for trying to introduce legislation revoking their charters, they'd either send the modern equivalent to the Pinkertons or simply buy the local police. Or just hire hitmen. The army would be busy far away, robbing other countries.

If we get to the point where we need the threat of violence to pass legislation, all bets are off anyway.

[zeemike]

47. They already passed it

It is called the war powers act. It gives the commander in chief the power to do whatever he wants to fight the terrorists and that includes using the military at home as well as abroad.
But your right they would just use the police for such a small and insignificant thing like a few thousand American terrorist trying to change things.

[Lilith Velkor]

48. You seem to misunderstand one thing

AFAIK it's still not illegal to propose passing a law to revoke the charter of a specific corporation. It doesn't require taking up arms either - just political pressure, and a dash of reverse-Cointelpro to counter any dirty tricks.

Then you do it again. And again. The corporations can laugh off threats of violence, but not threats to their profit margins. That's how you get 'em.

[zeemike]

49. Don't get me wrong, I would love to do that

But you must understand that if you attack a corporation that is running the military in a time of war you are an enemy combatant.Because if you won it would damage the military ability to operate. The Army unlike anytime in history cannot fight alone without the support of private corporations.
That should shock us all, but unfortunately the younger people do not see the point and I am not sure we can make it above the ringing sound of emotional response to the word DRAFT.

[bowens43]

35. I think this is the most irrelevent post I have ever seen

in response to Rengal's insane rants about the draft stopping wars.

[Zhade]

39. I think YOu should realize that old man is gambling with THIS young man's LIFE.

No. Fucking. DRAFT!

I WILL NOT SERVE! PERIOD!

[TahitiNut]

19. One thing is for sure: Cheney/Bush wouldn't have 'won' in 2004.

I also think it's more likely than not that we'd have stayed out of Iraq ... not only in 2003 but in 1991 as well. Independent of that, I think it's appalling that so few have to sacrifice EVERYTHING and so many have to sacrifice NOTHING. That's nothing even close to my idea of democracy.

[Erika]

24. Yep. The Bush family pimped the American military

and are still doing so. "Let other people fight, not us".

We enjoy life and play in Argentina, while others die in Iraq.

[Lilith Velkor]

33. Let's put the draft to a popular vote, then.

Or would that be insufficiently sacrifice-y?

[regnaD kciN]

23. Just like having a draft stopped us from going to war...

...in Vietnam. :crazy:

[bowens43]

34. Rangel's wrong.

If we had a draft the administration would have the additional 90,000 soldiers Gates wants and we would openly be at war with Iran and Syria.

Sometimes Rangel is a freaking idiot.

[rocktivity]

42. We're in Iraq because too many Dems voted for it, Charlie!

We're in Iraq becuase you let Bush walk all over you. We're in Iraq because Congress didn't just say no!

:headbang:
rocknation

[Vinca]

45. If Jenna and Barbara had been on the chopping block,

Iraq would not have been invaded. I'm not in favor of a draft, but I'm pretty darn sick of rich, white men sending other peoples' kids off to war. Worse than that is sending them off to a war that had such piss poor planning, troops will now be going into neighborhoods and doing what should have been done in the first days when the Sadam statue was coming down. Of course now, the neighbors have been terrorized for 4 years and would just as soon blow the troops up.

[and-justice-for-all]

50. We are not fighting any more of these fucking wars!

I WILL NOT PICK UP A GUN FOR THESE MOTHER-FUCKERS!!