You guys...you've just GOT to read this story.

[The Cleaner]

To this, she grew very angry and frustrated, and yelled at them, “This is your democracy?”

Source: http://www.islamonline.net/english/In_Depth/Iraq_Aftermath/2004/06/article_04.shtml

[fooj]

1. I'm in tears.

I don't know what to do anymore. :cry:

[no_hypocrisy]

2. OMFG!! n/t

[Suich]

3. This makes me ill.

My guess is her treatment was the rule, rather than the exception.

:cry:

[cdnwannabe]

4. Beyond sickening....

the only words I have are "get the U.S. out of there now" and "reparations for Iraqi's"

[malaise]

5. I can't cry any more

This has been the norm. The Iraqi people know exactly what Bushco's freedom and democracy really mean. Thankfully people in America also know.

By the time Bushco leaves the Middle East he will have done more damage than any one in the history of the US Republic.

This regime is the worst example of raw naked imperialistic power. May the world forgive innocent American people, and I know there are many.

[BeHereNow]

12. Innocent American People? I don't think so.

The American people had their chance to wash away their
complicity in the abuse of fellow humans when the torture
photos were made public.
Please do let it be recorded accurately that they did nothing.
We are not innocent.
WE are cowards.
Ignorant, arrogant and complicit COWARDS.

BHN

[malaise]

15. I don't think all of you who have been

protesting, organizing, voting etc are cowards. True you might have shut down the country sooner but it's coming to that.

[stillcool]

17. You may think of yourself that way...

but a little perusal of history shows that current behavior is not far from the norm regarding the U.S. government's tactics of persuasion across the globe. There's plenty of ignorance and arrogance to go around, but the blame lies with those that have the power to effect change...and unfortunately that power does not, nor has it ever resided in the hands of the masses.

[nam78_two]

22. delete-wrong place.nt

[BeHereNow]

24. Tell it to Martin Luther King, Jr.

And those who participated in the bus boycott.
Those people were true Americans and they took the power back.
Find me ONE person today in America who would be willing
to endure the "inconvenience" of a serious boycott against
the powers that be.

BHN

[stillcool]

29. Martin Luther King... and the freedom riders

had the federal courts on their side. They were forcing non-compliant states to adhere to federal law. Genius? Yes. Brave? yes. The black population of this country may be free to sometimes vote, and if they can find it, ride public transportation...but inequality still exists. Those black people who for generations had no power to enforce change...were they ignorant, arrogant, and complicit. You think a boycott would work? What would you boycott? Everything? Because no corporation is pure. There is no industry that is not influenced by the richest 2%. If you yourself, want to be out on the street starving to death...go for it! We all may be joining you soon enough.
I need to add something here. I do believe in the power of exercising one's choice. As in I choose not to buy products from certain suppliers because the thought of putting money in their pockets makes me ill. That is a personal choice, that will have no effect...because...these corporations, investment companies, whatever are so diversified that they pick up the slack somewhere else. They are global, not dependent on a single market.

[Critters2]

21. Hear. Hear. Sadly nt

[Toots]

54. What... you weren't "Outraged by the Outrage"?

US Senators were saying that. They were "Outraged at the Outrage" over the US torturing people. That Senator was re-elected handily....People being Outraged over torture is simply not tolerated in Bush* Amerika....

[melody]

76. Nonsense

We're enemy number one with the people who've done this.

There is more than abundant evidence that 2000 and 2004 were stolen elections. The only reason 2006 wasn't is because the counter wave was so huge.

If you need to hate us, hate us, but don't suppose it is based on any real evidence of our actions.
We're no better or worse than any other group of people.

[jgraz]

6. You're right...we MUST read this

This is what is being done in our name. Every time you think it's too difficult or not politically feasible to impeach this piece of human filth occupying the White House, you need to read it again.

When to we as Americans stand up and say ENOUGH??? When they come for YOU or YOUR daughter? Because unless we stop this now, you and your family are next.

[SammyWinstonJack]

7. Yeah. Winning hearts and minds!

Proud to be an American! :puke:

Support the troops! :puke:

heckuvajob george! :sarcasm: :grr: :mad:

Hate us for our freedoms! I don't think so!

[cwydro]

8. God, that is awful.

[Nite Owl]

9. Can they ever forgive us?

This was done and done in our name. It makes me angry but most of all ashamed.

[BeHereNow]

14. Why SHOULD they forgive US?

The prison torture photos came out in the mainstream press.
We did nothing.
To this day, the american people do nothing about what is
being done in their name and paid for with their tax dollars.
Why in the hell should they forgive us?

Oh wait, I forgot, candlelight vigils and protest sign smattered
gatherings have made it all better.
Uh-huh.

Americans don't have the backbone to make a difference,
but they are great at making themselves feel better
about it with lefty protests and yellow ribbon magnets.

BHN

[Tansy_Gold]

46. Well, you know *I* agree with you. . . . .

. . . And have to admit I'm complicit, too.

Until more of us understand that, the status quo will reign supreme.



Tansy Gold

[CrispyQ]

60. I agree with you.

There are no innocent Americans. We all have blood on our hands.

While I admire those who protest & whereas I write my congress persons about my outrage over this immoral war, I still enjoy a comfortable life style that is based on the deeds of the very people I abhor. For too long Americans have been willfully ignorant about what our corporate government is doing around the world to provide us with cheap energy & goods.

[Nightjock]

10. I don't want another person to tell me

that bush does not compare to a fucking nazi!!!

I did not think I could be more furious with that son of a bitch!

[freefall]

11. I am so ashamed that this is what my country has come to. n/t

[proud patriot]

13. How Awful

:(

[PreacherCasey]

16. ashamed.

[Jeanette in FL]

18. That was powerful

And her story is just one of thousands. We probably will never know the whole truth of what has been done in our name.

This will take generations to sort out.

[MindPilot]

19. This is exactly the thing that's wrong with an all-volunteer military

With no involuntary draftees, there is nothing to balance the gung-ho types who join up just for the oppotunity to kill.

Anyone who wants to be in combat probably shouldn't be.

[file83]

39. There are certainly those than join up for the "wrong" reasons...

...and it seems the US Military knows just what to do with those types: put them in charge of harassing the locals.

[peacebaby3]

49. Yep. They are also recruiting mentally ill people and ignoring it. I work in the

criminal justice field and I'm always shocked at how many of my clients with very long mental health histories are allowed to join the military. Some make it rather far and others are caught earlier. By the time I see them, they have been put out because of a "personality disorder" (i.e. Stephen Green). I wonder how many make it to Iraq where their mental illness is used to turn them into killing machines.

[Auntie Bush]

75. Not only mentally ill but retarder as well. Look at

Lyndsie England. She was declared too mentally incompetent to even stand trial. We're accepting thieves, uneducated, retarded and mentally ill now. What kind of men are we going to take to fill the 21,500+ troop surge. What kind of mental state will they be in after their 3rd , 4th and 5th rotations? What kind of atrocities will they commit while in Iraq...in our name? What will they do as traumatized citizens when they return? Just wondering?

[maggiegault]

70. It's Soldiers Who Have Retained A Sense of Decency...

...who pay the price.

Believe me when I tell you that the Iraqis exact their revenge against our troops for the treatment they receive. The problem is, those who feel the reprisal are rarely, if ever, the person who actually did the crime in the first place.

My brother's platoon adopted a stray dog and made it its mascot.

The Iraqi Army...people who are supposed "one of us"...beat it to death, just for the sport of it.

Now, my brother and his fellow troops deal daily in death and bone, blood and brains. Human suffering beyond comprehension. Yet every single one of his group is mourning the loss of their dog terribly.

You see, I think that adopting the dog was an act of humanity in the middle of nothing but inhumanity. Loving a pet is a uniquely human endeavor. And the pet was killed...beaten to death...by people who are supposedly on our side.

It has messed with their heads, believe me...heads that were already stressed out beyond all reason. These troops come home to us broken men and women, one way or another.

[proud2BlibKansan]

20. OMG How shameful

[nam78_two]

23. K&R-no text...what is left to say really?

[Mabus]

25. She summed it up well: "This is your democracy?"

This isn't my democracy. God damn that little son of a bitch in office. Damn him and his whole family.

[dogday]

26. Bush's war nt

[Norwood]

27. Disgusting

How exactly are we winning the hearts and minds of Iraqis by torturing them for no reason? The logic behind this escapes me it really does. What a great recruitment tool for al quieda though, good job chimpy...:mad:

[Nimrod2005]

28. And the whole fucking world knows this! Stories like this have been circulating

the Internets for years now, in all languages...And yes they blame Bush and they blame voters after the 2004 elections.

[Just-plain-Kathy]

37. I hope dems expose the truth about the last two Bush "wins"

it would prove to the world that we really didn't back Bush and his crimes.

[durrrty libby]

30. Kicked for time

[Bluerthanblue]

31. this must stop now.... not in 6mos. not in 16

mos. but NOW-

There is so much we would regret if we knew what was really going on- of that, I am sure.

Thank you for posting this sad, sad history.

blu

[Vinca]

32. This is sickening.

I've been reading "Fiasco" by Thomas Ricks and it's no wonder Americans are targets in Iraq. Some of the tactics have been horrible and innocent Iraqis are treated like criminals. I'm afraid the gungho "support the troops" mantra rings a little hollow now.

[riderinthestorm]

81. I'm in the middle of Fiasco right now too. And now this story!

It's almost unbearable but someone must witness and testify to what is being done in our names.....

:cry: Sick. It's so sick.

[Rex]

33. Criminal.

And this is the kind of 'system' the BFEE would LOVE to have over us here in America. Someone prove me wrong.

[seabeyond]

34. you wont find a single republican take the time to read this. they are too COWARDLY

i dont care how good the republican is, in the name of bush, they will refuse to listen to any of these stories, it will put their suport of bush to a personal shame and they cannot afford that shame or reflection

[Martin Eden]

35. this was done IN OUR NAME

It is imperative that we reclaim our national honor.

We cannot do so without holding accountable the criminals in the White House.

[GenDem]

36. Very, very sad.

I can't even imagine getting dragged out of my home, my children being abandoned, and living under those atrocious conditions. And worse -- who are these Americans perpetrating this hate? I don't know these Americans, because I have always thought of us as kind, humane, and just. I'm saddened after reading this.

[VenusRising]

38. That is disgusting.

I am not looking forward to finding out everything that actually happened when this is over and done with. May * have to feel everything these innocent Iraqis have felt in his afterlife.

[MN ChimpH8R]

40. The truly awful part of this story is

that it isn't surprising in the least. Awful. Horrifying and sickening. Gawd Bless Amerikkka.

[gratefultobelib]

41. Ugh! I clicked on your link...

"Commander Cuckoo Bananas." It was for real. Ugh. I feel dirty...

[Unca Jim]

42. Protest in the modern age

Many people complain that there was more protesting during the Vietnam war than this one. They then draw the conclusion that people today are somehow worse human beings because they have not protested as much.

People today have less time and resources than they did during Vietnam. They work more hours, and both spouses put in longer days for less relative money -taking a day off work to protest is a thing of the past. Also, protest is completely sidelined and ignored by the media and government. What does protest accomplish in this climate?

Instead, people read and post on DU and other sites that get the truth out; people give to just causes, people vote and care and do what they can in their communities. Just because they don't see the point in protesting when other things work better doesn't mean America is morally bankrupt.


That said, this woman's story is heart-rending, and too damn common. This evil war must end.

[Debi]

58. Welcome to DU Unca Jim

:hi:


Wish my welcome could have been on a more humane thread. x(

[Martin Eden]

65. You made some good points

and welcome to DU:toast:

Some of the most disingenous statements I've heard compared the number of people protesting to the entire population, concluding that those NOT protesting the war must therefore be supportive of it. The logical fallacy of that argument should be obvious to anyone with half a brain.

Another major difference between today and the Vietnam era is the absence of a draft. Despite the increasing shortage of adequately rested troops for the current military adventure, the Bushies don't want to touch the draft with a ten foot pole because they know that opposition and protest would absolutely explode in this country.

Their Republican constituents don't have much of a problem with others getting maimed and killed in Iraq, but having their own sons conscripted to that hell hole would melt their support for this war faster than a snowball in Bush & Cheney's post-life residence.

[orleans]

43. two & one half years old (her story). my god. can you imagine that

happening to your life?

maybe some of the senators would like to talk to her. i know i'd like for her to come and talk to them.

what a fucking travesty

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[peacebaby3]

48. Quite a few DUers have loved ones who serve in the military and many that

have been to Iraq. Some vets even post here. You believe it's ok for them to be killed? Your use of a very broad-brush is noted and proves that you are an unconscionable, sick, and twisted asshole in American society.

You disgust me.

[gratefultobelib]

56. Way over the line here...

You have insulted and sullied many with your remarks. How dare you. My brother's son-in-law was killed in Iraq, and it ripped his family apart. I'm astonished at the vehemence and downright ignorance in your post.

[Roland99]

45. The film, Road to Guantanamo, I'm sure doesn't cover 1/10 of the atrocities committed

as evidenced by this horrifying tale.

:(

[Cooley Hurd]

47. This was 10 months BEFORE the mercenaries were killed in Fallujah!

It's important to note this because, when the mercs were killed, many in this country were shocked about the brutality of it. The Iraqis in Fallujah already KNEW about stories like "Umm Taha's", and retaliated accordingly.

I knew we lost the war when that happened, and we had to get the fuck out.

K&R...:cry:

[Joanne98]

50. A lot of these types of troops are going to come back and be COPS!

I want them banned from law enforcement.

[Minnesota_Lib]

51. It sickens me that this is supposedly being done in "our name."

[burythehatchet]

52. Mission Accomplished

“We want to leave here—leave our country to the people who ‘liberated’ it,” she added.

[mcg]

53. Subjecting her to "a horrible stench" was torture by itself.

From the article...

The bathroom had four clogged toilets and it was infested with insects, and extremely hot and dirty. “They kept me in there for 22 days and the only time I was allowed outside was to use the toilet since none of them in my cell worked.” When she was taken out to relieve herself, she was forced to do so in front of male detainees. “It was a disgrace,” she said while looking at the ground.

Aside from humiliating “bathroom” breaks, and getting fluid infusions in the clinic and being forced to clean the mainstream detainee toilets in front of the men, she spent 22 days in solitary confinement in a small room with four grungy, clogged toilets.

“I slept on the ground,” she exclaimed. “It was very dirty, very hot and had a horrible stench. I was nauseated and vomiting most of the time.”

---

I once learned just how horrible just a little of that kind of smell can be, I was very surprised at how bad it is, I almost threw up. It is torture.

[Catchawave]

55. When our Reps visit...do they

get to talk to these people? Or just Bush's "people" with the rose petals?

[sellitman]

57. Impeach? Heck no......

Imprison for life!

I feel dirty just living here now.

[StrictlyRockers]

59. Horrible. Unconscionable.

K&R

[progressoid]

61. Freedom on the march...

:cry:

[mdmc]

62. Creating terrorist by the day

every day

[raysr]

63. Kind of takes the edge

off seeing "troops" no arms or legs. I wonder what some of them have done to their fellow man? Maybe it isn't just battlefield injuries, maybe it's punishment.

[peacebaby3]

69. Thanks from all the Duers that have loved ones in the military! Some of them have

had loved ones killed or maimed in Iraq, but it's good to know that you think they deserve it.

[rateyes]

64. Bastards!

Dammit!

[Rosemary2205]

66. This story sounds a little fishy to me.

First off, the story tells of a woman living alone with young children. No husband or brother or brother in law or father is ever mentioned. Just seems odd for that part of the world.

It's 6 months after our invasion, all hell has broke loose, and she is requested to come in to meet with US soldiers and she doesn't tell anyone where she's going? She goes alone? I can't picture that. I just can't. She lives in a country that allows her 20 year old son to sell her house out from under her without her permission, but she is not conditioned to take a man with her to a government building?

The story tells me some Iraqi person lied to the US about her being a danger, but because she is an Iraqi person I am asked to believe she is completely trustworthy in her story.

This story may be 100% accurate. There's no doubt in my mind that we treated Iraqi people like shit and still do. But honestly, I don't know how much of this particular story to believe. There are just too many basic oddities to the story that aren't adding up in my head.

[peacebaby3]

71. You know the old saying...there is his story, there is her story, and then there is the truth.

The stories posted on conservative boards are all about how great our troops are...rah, rah, rah when we know that is bullsh*t. The stories on this board are about how horrible our troops are...rah, rah, rah and that's bullsh*t too. The truth doesn't really matter...just make sure it fits the agenda.

If one of the troops say something bad about the "war" or * then they are wonderful on this board and on con boards, they are traitors.

The troops are used by both sides!

Is this story true? Impossible to know, but we do know that horrible things have gone on so if it isn't, there is probably a similar situation that is, but that doesn't mean I believe everything I hear or read...if so, I would have been part of the 70+% that thought Iraq had WMD back in 2003.

The points you make in your post are valid, but if this woman was a Sunni in Iraq before the invasion, she probably didn't have to have a man. At that time, women were very liberated and they have lost a lot of rights since then. I believe it did say something about her parents (or some family member) taking in her younger children. With all of the chaos and lawless behavior, maybe her son could have just sold her house...don't know.

Did her story come out before or after the photos were released from Abu Ghraib? I think it was shortly after, but if it was before, she definitely has some credibility. If it was after, back to who knows. I would hope that the reporter would have at least checked to make sure she spent the time in prison.

[Rosemary2205]

74. You make a very good point that I did not think of.

Sunni women had it much better in general under Saddam than they seem to now. -- of course that's not entirely true because of the rape rooms and Uday and Qusay running around terrorizing Iraq, but I do now remember that Saddam being somewhat more secular in his thinking allowed women more rights -- such as education etc. And I do understand the Sunnis tend to be more forward in their thinking overall than Shia. Yes I know this is a generalization, but it is something I had forgotten. I was just thinking about how many places those women in the black outfits and burkas are conditioned to think they cannot function at anything without a man present. It left me with a feeling that all is not right with the story.

I'm also agree with you that it's difficult to know what story to listen to sometimes. We do know things in this vein have gone on and are likely still going on in some fashion. However, the idea that this is a overwhelming pattern of behavior amongst most or all of our troops is not believable to me. A rotten seed here and there is likely, an impressionable young person lacking the judgement to know when to tell superiors "no" when they are ordered to mistreat people - of course.

To be honest, these kinds of stories really break my heart because at least some of our people tainted our reputation enough to make things like this believable to many Americans and most of the rest of the world. How shameful. Whether the story is entirely made up, totally accurate or somewhere in between, it doesn't really matter that much. It has a negative effect on America regardless.

[peacebaby3]

79. I agree with you completely.

"To be honest, these kinds of stories really break my heart because at least some of our people tainted our reputation enough to make things like this believable to many Americans and most of the rest of the world."

I'm noting this point from your post because it is so true. It's horrible and a lot of it is directly contributed to poor leadership at the top. The people running this government don't care one bit about the people of Iraq or our troops...they are just glad to have their bidding done and no blood on their hands (literally). The fish rots from the head.

With my husband being in the military, I've seen some gung-ho, brainwashed people, but many aren't and many that are get over there and see the death and destruction and are sorry they ever wished for action, but by then it's too late. It's become all about survival.

I was reading maggiegault's post further up in the thread about her brother and his platoon trying so desperately to hang on to a piece of their humanity in an inhumane world. It makes me so sad for everyone and everything involved in this catastrophe. The suffering by so many except those that created this mess is very tragic.

[Spazito]

67. Horrific

The reputation of the United States now smells as bad as the bathroom in which this woman was held, imo.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

68. As my sig states, these are war crimes

Everyone who planned this war and everyone down the chain of command who authorized these atrocities should be on trial for war crimes at the Hague.

Impeachment is only a first step. The next step should be a one-way ticket to the Hague.

[LuckyX]

72. Disgusting!

An army of thugs, and a country sitting on its ass watching American Idol. I hate the USA!

[peacebaby3]

73. Oh look...another one. n/t

[raysr]

77. These people (Iraqis)

didn't ask us to come over and rape their country. How much of this shit goes on that we never hear about? Why are these guys volunteeering? Patriotism? Right.

[peacebaby3]

78. Some of "these guys" didn't "volunteer" for this at all. My husband joined

at the age of 17 when Reagan was in office! I guess he should have known about all of this to come. You think he asked to be sent to invade Iraq? Your/Our government sent him. He didn't want to go, but he had no choice, other than going to prison.

The vast majority of those that serve (now more than 500,000 over the past 3+ years) and have been to Iraq haven't done anything like this, but you and others on this thread spew vitriol about how it doesn't hurt for them to lose limbs. You said, maybe it's their punishment!!! You should tell that to some of your fellow DUers that have lost loved ones to the war or had a son, daughter, husband, wife, etc. injured. You have no problem with someone who posts calling the entire Army thugs?

I don't want ANYONE to be killed or maimed in this horror.

Oh...BTW...have you paid your taxes over the last 3 years? I'm betting you have like most other Americans. If you have, you've supported the "war." If you are paying, why? Because you want to keep your "stuff" and you don't want to go to prison? Patriotism?

[raysr]

80. The key word as I see it

is "volunteer". I'm sorry your husband ended up in Iraq but didn't he know the job was dangerous when he took it? It's the Army for christssake. How can you volunteer and assume you'll never end up in some kind of war. Also if he's still in then it was a career choice. I got DRAFTED in 1968 when I was 19. The job situation in 1970 where I live was pitiful then but I didn't re-up, I got the hell out. I never had to go to VietNam. But I knew if I reenlisted I would have. I never could understand those who volunteered then and I really don't now.

[peacebaby3]

82. Of course he knew the job was dangerous! He signed up to defend this

country and our constitution. What's Iraq got to do with that?

As you should know since you were in the military that when you "re-up", you do it for several years at a time. The last time he did it was for 6 yrs. It was is 2001 so he had contracted through his retirement this year. You can't just quit. And yes, since he had only done this since the age of 17 and now had a family and was a few years from retirement, he chose to stay in. That choice was made long before any of this happened.

This has ZERO to do with what you have said in this post. What you have said is:

"Kind of takes the edge off seeing "troops" no arms or legs. I wonder what some of them have done to their fellow man? Maybe it isn't just battlefield injuries, maybe it's punishment."


So it would be OK with you if my husband, another DU Iraq Vet or the loved one of a Duer had been maimed in Iraq? Some DUers have lost family members as well. Was it their punishment?

That's a disgusting and hurtful thing to say and you should be ashamed.