It is hitting newstribune now.

[Joe for Clark]

The 4th Brigade, 2nd division (4/2)is part of the "surge". They will not be finishing training - they go directly to Baghdad.

That is about it for 2 div - they are spent.

That is every boy out of Ft Lewis, going to Baghdad - cause the 3rd was already sent there from Mosul.

I am speechless - I knew it was comming, none-the-less - speechless.

Joe

[Cleita]

1. How awful.

God I hate that WH asshole.

[wryter2000]

2. I know what you mean about speechless

I can't believe this is happening.

[Joe for Clark]

6. I should have given a link - opps -

http://www.thenewstribune.com/news/military/stryker/story/6320244p-5509832c.html

[bananas]

27. I just posted in LBN so more people will see this

hope my subject line isn't too extreme.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2686808

[Joe for Clark]

30. Good for you - I'm not so swift at posting.

Thank you,

Joe

[Monkeyman]

3. Joe I been saying this would happen. Watch the 173rd they are next

[JuniperLea]

4. Surge

Katrina was a storm surge too... I have no doubt this new surge will go every bit as well.

[The Backlash Cometh]

21. How many Katrinas is one president allowed to have?

I'm speechless. In my father's time, failure was defined differently. I remember my father always talking about people who crossed the line, "He's finished!" And the tone was final.

[Joe for Clark]

44. None.

And I agree with your father.

Joe

[DemBones DemBones]

5. How much training did they have?

Or maybe I should say how much are they lacking?

[Monkeyman]

7. Joe they are about three weeks short right

[Joe for Clark]

10. I know this drill - it is NOT just 3 weeks.

When they get thru Irwin they go to Polk.

After that, they get ready to go - these kids aren't getting to go to the training center!!

And I don't think the training center is that great anymore -

You are probably right about the 173rd.

Joe

[Monkeyman]

12. Ya I just talk to a kid from the first unit over

Email said these troops are like coming out of basic

[sandnsea]

31. They haven't been to Polk??

My husband went there in the 70's. That's infantry training, right?

[Joe for Clark]

33. They use Polk for chemical and advanced training now.

AT least we did 2003, 2004 and 2005.

Joe

[sandnsea]

34. Is there an in-between

Is there basic, AIT, and then one of the national centers - or have they just increased the kind of training one gets after basic? How much are these kids missing?

[Joe for Clark]

37. I don't know.

Troy went in in 2002. Basic in Leonard-Wood, the MOS school- then Irwin and then Polk. An Initiation prior to going back at Lewis- some kind of in-country indoctrination in Kuwait and then to station.

He did that a few times, so it was a routine.

I thought everybody that went did something similar.

Joe

[sandnsea]

39. Okay

What I'm hearing is, regardless of whether someone has been through everything and even to Iraq - they should always go through complete retraining for maximum safety and effectiveness (which makes sense to me) - AND

some of these kids may have had basic and whatever AIT/MOS, but aren't getting the Irwin/Polk training because they're at Ft Lewis and getting shipped out instead of going to the training as was scheduled.

I have a few people to send this info to, but I have to get it as close to right as I'm able.

[Joe for Clark]

40. No -

EVERY kid gets basic - or they are not a soldier. They get an MOS - that is their training for their job.

BUT - before they go overseas they also get trained to go into a combat environment - that happens at Irwin, etc..

Kids getting recycled are supposed to go thru it again before they go, too.

I am not the best at explaining anything - I'd make the worst teacher in the world. And I don't know if this is even clear - You go thru the training centers before you go - that is the way it is supposed to happen - but these kids - if they did before or not - are going over seas anyway.
Some have experice - but many don't - they are going anyway.

Realizing I am not the best at explaining - I will try better to explain if this is not clear. Is it??

Joe

[sandnsea]

41. Right, that's what I thought

Which means I didn't explain it well.

They didn't get their combat training. The ones who have gone before are supposed to get it again - and aren't. And the ones who have never gotten it, aren't, because they were sent to Ft. Lewis and scheduled to get it, and it was cancelled.

I'm going to send the article and that info to a few people, for whatever it's worth. This 'surge' isn't so important as to deny our troops proper training. OR, in the eyes of the administration, it ought to be SO IMPORTANT, that in order for it to have the best chance of success, we should guarantee troops have the best training.

Either way, this is dereliction of duty. No officer should make this order. It's bullshit.

[Joe for Clark]

43. You understood it better than I explained it.

Joe

[Toots]

62. Things are probably much different than when I was in but we had Basic Training

Which by the way I took at Fort Lewis, and then every soldier had AIT or Advanced Individual Training,which I took at Fort Polk, (known at the time as Little Vietnam) usually in their MOS. Then possibly there might be some other short school for related occupation like if your MOS was 11 Bravo (Infantry) you might also get a drviers training course for APCs or tanks, then off to your Unit. I am confused as to which area of training these soldiers were being cut short from.

[uppityperson]

46. I know a 3rd timer in the group, is saying they expect to die this time.

They are not happy about this, are very pessimistic about their chances of returning this time. Thanks for the info, it makes more sense since I know some have already been. I'll ask his mom next wk what the #'s of returnees are (those going on 2 or 3 tour)

[Joe for Clark]

8. Not enough!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

They didn't get to the training center.

And I think that wasn't that great.

You can read the story -

Joe

[Monkeyman]

9. Dam Just read the whole thing These Troops are going to get hurt

[Joe for Clark]

14. You know the drill here monkey -

If they are 2nd or 3rd timmers - they will probably be ok - they will have an idea of what to expect.

But they are probably not - or they wouldn't be going thru Irwin- you know??

You know exactly what I mean.

Those kids are in deep.

Joe

[Monkeyman]

16. Bush has odered them into body bags

[shadowknows69]

22. I'm meeting a ton of replacement troops coming right out of basic

and I've heard some stories about poor or nonexistent training too.

[uppityperson]

42. I know a 3rd timer, is prepared to die this time, expecting it that is

He has already done 2 tours in Iraq, 1 was Baghdad. Never made up a will but did so this week as he is expecting to not come home as what they will be doing is so serious and deadly. He enlisted over 10 yrs ago (Clinton yrs), trying to make retirement and is faced with the choice of follow orders or go to jail and lose all he has gained so far. So, he made a will and is finishing up things before he goes, expecting to not return home but die during urban warfare. She is not sleeping much. damn

(I posted this a bit ago in LBN topic but wanted to share here too)

[Joe for Clark]

45. It is that point where you just don't care anymore.

Troy said it well - "Just shoot me - I come home on a hospital ship or in a bag - and either way I come home"

Those kids are breaking down - they are going over the edge at this point - and I think they did so well to hold up this long.

Keep posting - you did a good post here.

Joe

[Oleladylib]

49. What the hell...how far is the Canadian border..Jail is better than death for NO CAUSE

[uppityperson]

51. He doesn't want to do that.

He is gambling that he will survive and be able to finish his 20 yrs to retirement. And he doesn't want to go to jail. So he is gambling but not expecting much. I asked. That is what the mom said. I don't understand, would chose differently, but this is what he said. He would be very happy to have a different commander in thief (joined during Clinton yrs and feels really frustrated, sad, scared).

[durtee librul]

11. This is just stupid

How the hell can you send boys to war zones with abbreviated training??????WTF???????

[Joe for Clark]

17. This is beyond stupid now -

This has gone way too far.

Joe

[DemBones DemBones]

23. Ok, but where's the link? It's not in your OP. . .

I do want to know about this.

[bananas]

28. Post #6

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=3109645&mesg_id=3109693

[Joe for Clark]

29. #6 -

Joe

[bananas]

13. Then the army is officially broken - they don't have enough trained troops. nt

[Joe for Clark]

18. They have one thing going for them -

they are american kids - and the kids that did the deal so far will look after the kids that haven't - you know - they can count on each other.

The best thing the american army ever had going for it was that ability of our kids to look out for each other - no thanks to the officers.

Joe

[natrat]

15. hope someday there is a war crimes trial or something-some justice anyway

[fed-up]

19. a friend in 82nd Airborne to Afghan this week thinks they are "expendable"

He is a team leader (hope I remember the term correctly) and that 2 of his 4 guys are NOT ready

It will be his first tour

I hope all goes well as we just had to call him on Monday and tell him his uncle passed away and the family can't take another loss...

F*CK BUSH

[Joe for Clark]

32. You know - it is a good thing to remember -

Everybody is a god damn hero until they get shot at the first time- everybody.

Changes dramatically after that.

They just don't know - nobody knows until it happens.

I'll tell you - do not be on the other end of a phone call when they figure this truth out.
It can rip your heart out.
Joe

[Clark2008]

20. How's your son, Joe?

:hug: from a fellow Clarkie.

[Joe for Clark]

26. We haven't talked to him since christmas day.

He was ok. He was blown up the week before - his stryker was blown up. He walked away. Some kids didn't walk away.

We were informed no kids would be allowed or able to call home for christmas - but he did.

They are working them 18 hours a day - every day. Maybe a day off every two weeks.

Personally - I do not see how those kids hold up at all.

They are not toy soldiers - just kids.

Thanks for asking,

Joe

[bdamomma]

24. bush is thrusting these young people in a meat grinder for his crusade

with no workable equipment,bush can burn in hell and he probably feel at home there.

[Monkeyman]

25. Joe I sent this to some people in Washington maybe able to help

[Joe for Clark]

36. If you know someone that can help those kids -

send them this. This message was sent to us on 11/6/06 - no accident in the date I think.

All FRG Leaders,

Please forward this to all of your POC's to disseminate. Thank you.


Ladies and Gentlemen,

Please disseminate this message to all Arrowhead Brigade family members.

The Arrowhead Brigade will be moving from its current location in northern Iraq to the Baghdad area sometime in the next 4-6 weeks. We currently anticipate that most of our Soldiers will depart Mosul after they transfer responsibility for US support to local authorities to another American brigade.

The current mailing address that you have for your Soldier remains correct, and will not change for about two weeks; I encourage you to send any care packages or other mail to your Soldier prior to 15 November. After 15 November, you will likely have to use a new address, and I believe that we will have that for you prior to that date.

There will not be significant disruption to the R and R program currently being executed by the brigade. Some key leaders who will play a role in the move may have their dates adjusted slightly, but that should be the exception and not the rule.

Right now we don't know the living conditions that our Soldiers will move into once they arrive at their new base camps, but we know that they will have access to some MWR facilities including phones and computers. I don't know how the ratio of computers and other facilities compares to what they currently have.

I know that there is a perception that Baghdad is significantly more dangerous than Mosul; when COL Townsend briefed the brigade Rear Detachment leadership today, he clearly articulated that this is not true. The perception exists because there is a larger number of both Soldiers and reporters in Baghdad. Our brigade is the best equipped brigade in our Army, and our training has prepared us for this mission. We anticipate that our Soldiers will incur the same level of risk during our upcoming operations that they have experienced in our recent operations.

You can best protect your Soldier now by keeping this information secure and refraining from speaking with media outlets. If you are contacted by media and feel uncomfortable with answering queries, you can refer individuals to the Fort Lewis Public Affairs Office at [phone]. We will continue to update you with information as it becomes available.

v/r
Bob

Robert J.
MAJ, FA
Rear Detachment Commander
3d Stryker Brigade Combat Team, 2d Infantry Division
Fort Lewis, WA 98433
[phone]
DSN 357-9618
Cell: [phone]

I edited names here.

We knew they were injecting 3/2 in November - we knew. We had to shut up - and I did the best I could shutting up. I wasn't so good at shutting up, I suppose - but I would die before I put any kid in harms way. No Geraldo moment from me - ever.

Monkey - I never had to go to Viet Nam - my brothers had to go - I was never old enough. I expected to - but the war ended, you know?? I would have gone - it was just the way it was then. I only say this so you may know - my family was always in some war - My father was a Major in US army and Air force. My mother was a LT in US army. My brothers were GIs in the Army. My uncles -they ranked my dad - I'll just say that. I know - take the GI perspective - always.

And frankly - I spent five years studying orders issued to mom and dad in europe before I ever let my book get published on the war - I read that, there was no mistake in what was comming.

You know someone that can help those kids - please - HELP THOSE KIDS!!

Joe

[Monkeyman]

59. Sent Brother Sent

[Booster]

35. This is just so wrong in so many ways. Bush is an asshole.

[DemReadingDU]

38. Can't Congress issue something to prevent this surge?

Is there any way Bush can be stopped?

This surge/escalation is so wrong.

[Joe for Clark]

47. I think it is fair to start really think impeachment now.

This guy really earned it at this point.

And we have a good chance now.

Joe

[nadinbrzezinski]

58. The numbers in teh Senate are starting to turn to

us, but UNTIL we have those numbers... in the bag...

Real impeachments are organic and we are getting there

[nadinbrzezinski]

48. We knew it was comuing, all os us did

and those who undersatnd anything about the military KNOWS that spent troops who have not finished their training cycle are at a higher risk

and these kids are out of basic... damn bush and his stupid followers to the ninth circle of hell

[Joe for Clark]

52. Glad you are with us Nadin!!

Joe

[nadinbrzezinski]

53. I've got the six o fthe troops

having been one, and having sent a hubby to war... yep I've got their six.

Right at the moment thinking on how to explain this little problem (huge that is) to my congress critter who's contact with the military is vets mostly. She is a dem, but there are days.

[Joe for Clark]

54. I understand.

Joe

[nadinbrzezinski]

55. Well I sent the article and I added this little explanation

Now being the wife of a retired Navy Chief let me explain what this means.

The army is broken.

Units who have not gone through their full training cycle are in the process of being sent into the meat grinder.

Effectively those orders have ordered a higher percentage of those kids into body bags.

We do not have the troops.

I beseech you, use the power of the purse to stop this insanity. As is, we will pay for this for years to come, as broken troops come home, in both body and spirit.

Clear enough? Or do I have to be more blunt?

Something about myself... I served... not in the US Military, but I served, as an officer... and this is criminal. We are ordering kids, both enlisted and young officers, to their deaths since in some cases we are sending some of these troops into the meat grinder right out of basic training.

Nadin Abbott

[Joe for Clark]

56. That is good Nadin.

You know- you helped some of those kids at christmas - you really did.

Thanks for the kids -

Joe

[nadinbrzezinski]

57. You welcome Joe

we need to keep their six

I also sent it to Senator Boxer, and I am actually in personal talking terms with her staff and her due to Katrina, so they may pay more attention

[Oleladylib]

50. There were military interviewed in Baghdad on PBS whose tours

are being extended..their morale is bad...Look at the psch.cases we are going to have as a result of this lunacy...

[Pachamama]

60. I feel sick....this is just so wrong...

I just sent a lengthy email to a relative of mine who is a retired Colonel in the Army and I point blank asked what he thinks about this. Will be very curious to see his answer. He was in Vietnam and is a Republican.

[Tatiana]

61. I knew it was coming too. Most of us did. Yet... I'm still speechless.

:grouphug: I'm praying for your son.

I'm so angry. And in the midst of all this mess, I'm wondering if Feingold wasn't on to something when he threatened to yank funding for this fiasco of a war. We won't get the troops out of there unless something drastic is done. It's obvious the neocons want the U.S. to stay in the region permanently.

Impeachment? Legislation?

We need a viable exit strategy like yesterday. And we need a C-I-C who can implement it.

[Pachamama]

63. Joe - Here's the Email response I just received from a relative of mine who is a retired Colonel!!!!

Joe, after reading your post late last night I sent an email to a relative who is a now retired colonel (retired about 5 years ago) and was involved in operations in the Gulf War and knows a lot about combat training. He's a lifelong Republican. He supported this war in the 4 years ago and Bush. Here is what he said in relation to both Bush's proposed surge, our presence there and the news about the skipping of the training at Irwin:

(NOTE what he says about the importance of the training and what the destiny of those troops going into Bush's surge plan. Note also what the solution is going to be - not military - its going to take a civilian one - US and the Congress)

"Great to hear from you; even considering the topic. YES, I agree with you completely. But forget surge; why are we still there, now, anyway, given the "civil war" situation. That was the one condition that was always drummed into us when I attended the Army's most senior leadership school (The Army War College); selection rate for this was something like 4.8% and toughest cut to make outside of General Officer .... anyway .... never get involved in a civil war was a recurrent theme while in training. You are right that Ft Irwin and the National Training Center is VERY important in deployment training. It is like the final exam and is how a unit determines it's readiness and what weaknesses it has; can't imagine skipping this critical step in the deployment process. One of the things that bothers me most about this surge idea is that these units are going to be "embedded" with the Iraqi's -- they are going to be "forted up" with them; go on patrol with them, be in direct support of them and essentially be under their Command and Control ... this certainly exposes them more and one would expect an increase in casualties. I don't have an answer on how we can get out. It will not come from the military as this would amount to mutiny and you really don't want the military deciding what is right for our country (Seven Days in May-wise). It must come from our civilian leadership. I see more and more republicans coming out against what we are doing every day and think that even the die hards will be pounding on the Presidents desk in the next 90 days when this surge thing goes south. You've been against this from the beginning and been a passionate vocal advocate of getting out quickly; I'd say about 3 more months and no one will be able to justify our continued presence there."

[maine_raptor]

64. I want to buy that man a beer.

I've been reading this thread and slack-jawed at what I'm reading here, but your relative is spot on. Three months tops.

The sad thing is three more months of human tragedy to wade through.

[Robbien]

65. What is up with this "3 more months" deal?

For the last three years war supporters keep giving BushCo more and more arbitrary deadlines which are just cop outs. It is broken and has been broken a long time. These guys giving arbitrary deadlines know it but will go to their graves saying "three more months".

[Pachamama]

66. I don't think he's giving it 3 more months as a plan - I think he's acknowledging that its such a

disasterous plan, destined for failure and that the only way for the rest of the "die-hards" to come around and civilian leadership to be finally pounding on the desk of the President and saying "No More" is going to come in about 3 months after enough body bags have returned. He is acknowledging that is what we are going to have to get to to finally get this to end.

[nadinbrzezinski]

67. kick