Obama's charm lost on America's black activists

[Herman Munster]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2089-2546081,00.html

HE is a media darling, a paparazzi target and a source of inspiration for millions of Democrats who dream of retaking the White House in 2008. But Senator Barack Obama, the charismatic African-American who is shaking up the presidential primary race, has not impressed some of America’s most powerful black activists.
Civil rights leaders who have dominated black politics for much of the past two decades have pointedly failed to embrace the 45-year-old Illinois senator who is considering a bid to become America’s first black president.

At a meeting of activists in New York last week, the Rev Jesse Jackson, the first black candidate to run for president, declined to endorse Obama. “Our focus right now is not on who’s running, because there are a number of allies running,” Jackson said.

The Rev Al Sharpton, the fiery New York preacher who joined the Democratic primary race in 2004, said he was considering another presidential run of his own. And Harry Belafonte, the calypso singer who became an influential civil rights activist, said America needed to be “careful” about Obama: “We don’t know what he’s truly about.”

The unexpected coolness between the old civil rights guard and the new Democratic hopeful has added an intriguing twist to the budding rivalry between Obama and Senator Hillary Clinton, who hopes to emulate her husband, former president Bill Clinton, in attracting support from black voters.

[Rosemary2205]

1. I see this as all good.

First off, it's too early to pick a horse. Secondly, the very idea the blacks would or should automatically pick the black guy is insulting. And thirdly, the "black community" in the United States does not see Al Sharpton, or Jesse Jackson, or Harry Belafonte as someone who has any right to speak for the entire African American community. Anyone who thinks they do is either an ass or is uneducated.

I see no problem here other than some writer in Britain doesn't understand racial dynamics in the United States.

[sandnsea]

4. Don't know what he's about???

Please. It isn't as if Obama has been in a cave for 20 years. They most certainly know his work and are walking on eggshells because they're afraid of making Hillary mad. It's pathetic.

[Rosemary2205]

5. You lost me.

You seem angry about what I said but I don't understand how your comment relates to anything I said. I apologize. Maybe my brain is just off tonight.......can you explain for me please?

Or maybe you posted in the wrong location? (I do that alot myself) :)

[sandnsea]

6. It isn't racial dynamics

It's Clinton dynamics. It isn't like Obama is the next Clarence Thomas or something. Sharpton and both Jacksons know what Obama's about. They just have to think up excuses to put off supporting him because they're afraid of crossing the Clintons. That is all it has to do with.

[Rosemary2205]

17. If

the writer of the article thinks Jesse Jackson, etc speaks for the entire black community in the US then that writer doesn't understand racial dynamics in the US.

I think you misunderstood my post.

[sandnsea]

31. Rupert Murdoch's Paper

Ruper Murdoch, who supports Tony Blair and has recently had meetings with Hillary. Well of course, it's clear now.

"The Times, and its sister paper The Sunday Times, are published by Times Newspapers Limited, a subsidiary of News International, itself wholly owned by the News Corporation group, headed by Rupert Murdoch."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Times

[Infinite Hope]

19. Here...

They aren't saying Obama doesn't believe in the same things they do. They're saying Obama does believe the same as they do, but so do most of the other Democrats in the field. If they were endorsing based merely on who believes in the same ideals as they do, they'd be endorsing several candidates. Since they only endorse one, they wish to endorse the one who will best advance their ideals. That isn't automatically Obama.

Obama is bad for their cause. But an election is a job interview. All the candidates could be qualified, but some are more qualified than others.

[sandnsea]

24. “We don’t know what he’s truly about.”

That's a direct quote and what I referred to. That doesn't mean they think Obama believes the same things they do at all. The whole thing stinks of power politics. This is how the Clintons operate.

[Infinite Hope]

36. Wrong...

Because they aren't automatically picking Obama, the Clinton's are behind it? They can't support one of the other candidates without it meaning the Clinton's are behind it?

Check this:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x3074939
"Despite widespread interest in the likely candidacy of another influential black Democrat, Illinois Sen. Barack Obama (news, bio, voting record), Sharpton said he's heard little substantive discussion of issues that might influence his decision about running.

"Right now we're hearing a lot of media razzle dazzle," Sharpton said. "I'm not hearing a lot of meat, or a lot of content. I think when the meat hits the fire, we'll find out if it's just fat or if there's some real meat there."

Sharpton said the candidate who impressed him most so far was former North Carolina Sen.
John Edwards, who has made poverty the central issue of his campaign."

...It doesn't sound too much like the Clinton's are behind it. It sounds like Sharpton is deliberating. I'm glad Sharpton doesn't perpetuate a stereotype by supporting Obama automatically and instead chooses based on who he believes will be the best man for the job. Maybe it'll be Edwards. Maybe it'll end up being Obama. Maybe he'll run and support himself.

[sandnsea]

43. Rupert Murdoch's Paper

Really, nothing more needs to be said. If people don't start understanding the power they have, they're going to wake up in February 2008 and wonder how in the hell Hillary got elected when nobody really wanted her.

[Skidmore]

47. I seem to recall that Hillary has done a significant amount of

rubbing elbows with Murdoch recently. If Murdoch is returning a favor through his paper, then this is a power politics play.

I hope Obama does very well. I know several people that have expressed every intention of voting for him.

[aquart]

45. What an utter load of crap.

Absolutely, they make their decisions depending on what some white people feel. What smarmy and condescending statement. The kind you need to shower after typing.

[politicasista]

8. I don't think Rev. Al cares for the Clintons

The first commentary he did on The Tom Joyner Morning Show was an honest critque of Clinton and his administration and his "first Black president status." Though Joyner and his gang are Clinton fans, he has brought up Hillary more than others when talking about the issues (i.e. Iraq) that matter.

[sandnsea]

21. Power is about power

You don't have to like the people with the power, but you do have to consider the power. Between a Clinton - Obama match-up, I think some people might give themselves some time to see how it shakes out before they commit.

[malaise]

16. What exactly does Obama stand for?

I am curious.

[sandnsea]

22. Real change

Real economic opportunity for all, real dialogue, real change in the power structure. He's been on the right side of ethics reform, the war, the economy, the environment. He doesn't go along or wait until the wind stops blowing. He's been very good for the Democratic Party and I don't understand the bashing. It would be one thing to say they haven't decided. But to say they don't know what he stands for??? That's bullshit.

[Reterr]

26. Ok I'll bite

That sounds like a sound-bite to me :shrug:, so if you could illustrate what he has done towards any of this I would love to hear it. I know that Gore's commitment to the environment is genuine and he has worked long and hard for causes affiliated to environment protection. Kerry's commitment to open government and his work against corruption are well-documented.

Obama seems to me , thus far (mind you that could change I agree) a man of all charm, sound-bite and such vague phrases like "real change". I don't see anything substantial he has contributed anything towards in any of those areas you listed :shrug:.

I thought that speech he gave at the Democratic National Convention in 2004, was the most over-rated thing I ever heard. I couldn't find a single original idea in there -mostly again stuff like "I believe in America" and other vague sound bites. I like Gore, Feingold, Kerry and Kucinich (no hope I know) as presidential candidates. Obama doesn't make me shudder quite as much as Hilary or Edwards, but its close.

[sandnsea]

27. He pegged Iraq

"I don't oppose all wars. What I am opposed to is a dumb war. What I am opposed to is a rash war. What I am opposed to is the cynical attempt by Richard Perle and Paul Wolfowitz and other armchair, weekend warriors in this administration to shove their own ideological agendas down our throats, irrespective of the costs in lives lost and in hardships borne. What I am opposed to is the attempt by political hacks like Karl Rove to distract us from a rise in the uninsured, a rise in the poverty rate, a drop in the median income, to distract us from corporate scandals and a stock market that has just gone through the worst month since the Great Depression.

That's what I'm opposed to. A dumb war. A rash war. A war based not on reason but on passion, not on principle but on politics."

http://www.barackobama.com/2002/10/26/iraq_war.php

[Telly Savalas]

30. Not to mention that he penned a 350 page long book

articulating his vision for the country.

Anybody who thinks that Obama is nothing but a superficial media darling should do themselves a favor and check the book out from the library and read the damn thing.

If somebody disagrees with what he says, that's fair enough. But to willfully ignore his work, then dismiss him as lacking substance is pretty silly.

[malaise]

46. That is true and important

but I've listened to all of Obama's speeches and while I think he is very intelligent, he appears to have an opportunistic side.

I have not written him off, indeed there is a side of him that I like, but he does appear to be a little too careful to be genuine. I'm watching him carefully.

[Reterr]

55. Ok thats a good quote

Thanks for sharing. Thats certainly a big plus in his favor.

[Connie_Corleone]

41. Uh, he's got a book out describing his views.

You might wanna try reading it and find out for yourself.

[Reterr]

56. If thats how he plans to get his ideas out to everyone

its not gonna go to far. Only the already supportive largely, are gonna go out, buy a 350-page book that costs more the $10, read it all and then know where he stands.
Besides I read excerpts at the store and wasn't much impressed. Specially, by what he had to say regarding the environment-one of the biggest issues of our time.

[geomon666]

57. Have you seen his confirmation votes?

He's voted yes to confirm Robert Gates, John Negroponte, Michael Chertoff, and Condoleezza Rice. There's definitely room for bashing right there.

[sandnsea]

62. So did Feingold and Boxer

In fact, 98 senators voted to confirm Negroponte and Chertoff, 95 for Gates. You'll have to find something better than that to beat up Obama with.

[geomon666]

66. No I don't.

The others don't get a free pass from me either. If he's willing to endorse Negroponte, he deserves the proverbial mud in the face and so does anyone who endorses that monster.

[sandnsea]

67. So who you gonna' vote for?

And don't say Edwards because he'd have done the exact same thing.

[geomon666]

70. I will vote for the nominee.

But that doesn't mean I'm going to trust him implicitly.

[sandnsea]

73. In the primary n/t

[geomon666]

75. No in the general election.

I don't vote in primaries.

[mdmc]

69. How much does he support the drug war?

Is he for real, or is he electable?

[butterfly77]

9. My thoughts exactly,...

[sandnsea]

2. Everybody's afraid of the Clintons

This is really sad. The same people who express anger that the Democratic Party hasn't done enough for them, nuzzle up to the two people who have taken the party away from its work for minorities and the poor. The Clintons have enormous power, it's pretty clear.

[Homer Wells]

3. Obama is Peaking way too soon!!

He ia the media rock-star of the year, but a helluva lot of new stuff and new people are waiting right over the horizon.

It may well be that by mid-2008 he will be as as forgotten as some of the "great" pop stars of the 90's.

The Bangles were said to be, at the height of their fame, comparable to the Beatles,(?), but I don't even hear them on the oldies stations any more.

He represents a breath of fresh air to the public, but he may well get lost in the crowd as the time for election gets closer.

[ContraBass Black]

7. Why should every black person in America choose the same candidate

Two years before the election?

[BayCityProgressive]

11. I am just so disgusted

with all of the intra-party politics. Neither of them would push a progressive agenda anyhow so what does it even matter?I am backing Kucinich right now so it doesn't really matter to me who the MSM tells us should be the nominee.

[sandnsea]

23. Why should they let Hillary intimidate them?

The comment that they don't know what he stands for is the telling comment. It goes directly to the 'inexperienced' story line the Clintons are selling. His life's work shows what he stands for.

[BlooInBloo]

32. Because white people say so. Duh.

[aquart]

10. He is black without the history of American blacks.

That makes him acceptable to whites because he isn't anyone we resent feeling guilty about. But he isn't a man with the soul of New Orleans jazz or a bone deep knowledge of the other amazing journeys 15% of our population took during the last four hundred years.

As soon as I heard his background I expected this difficulty. To white people, black is black. But America now has not only our own blacks, and the island blacks who have come here, both groups with slave experience, but we also now have recent immigrants from Africa and they bring a vastly different attitude and experience.

[malaise]

18. That is part of it but what exactly does

he stand for?

[AspenRose]

38. Egg zact lee

Remember when Alan Keyes actually tried to bring that up against him as a bone of contention in his senate campaign?

"He's not really black like WE are" was the message Keyes was trying to convey....precisely because of his diverse background.

I guess black folk better line up and go run and vote for Obama...never mind if there are other candidates to consider. It's what's expected. Why else should they vote for him? :sarcasm:

[aquart]

44. It bothers me that white friends assume he has the black vote locked up.

Same way Christians think a Jew's a Jew, but I know to ask Conservative? Orthodox? Reform? Ultra-Orthodox? Non-observant? because that makes a difference. Christians know they're Catholics and Methodists and Baptists and Evangelicals and Episcopalians, and Coptics and.........on and on. And no Baptist can take a Catholic vote for granted or vice versa.

I didn't know that there would be black opposition to him, but I knew enough to wonder if there would be.

[Caution]

12. Considering how much Senator Obama connected with the Deval Patrick

campaign and the black activists here in MA, I find this very difficult to believe.

[Infinite Hope]

15. Speaking at a rally doesn't compensate for the arguments of Jackson, Sharpton, and others...

...that he doesn't have enough of a track record for them to know he's the best candidate for their cause. To me it makes perfect sense that these figures who have spent their lives fighting for civil rights and equality are going to deliberate and select the person that demonstrates the greatest likelihood of following through on issues important to them.

[Caution]

20. Who is referring to speaking at a rally?

I'm talking about the fact that the African-American activists involved with the Deval Patrick campaign here in MA are extraordinarily exciting about Senator Obama and his political future.

[Infinite Hope]

35. A lot of people are excited for his future. It doesn't mean...

...they support him this time in this field of candidates as their number one pick. Nor does it mean these black leaders must. Sharpton recently said Edwards impresses him the most. Sharpton himself might run. There's no reason to expect they should automatically support Obama.

[Dover]

13. Obama is so smoooooth, he's slick.

And there is something about him that gives me the creeps too. I don't just listen to a person's words (which might be very convincing), but take in the whole package. And this package DOESN'T pass the smell test. WHY? Because there is NO SMELL AT ALL, no scent to follow....much too anticeptic for me. In fact we know very little about him other than what the immense media hype tells us. And did anyone from the ranks of Black Activists promote him?
No....he emerged from a different quarter altogether...so of course they are skeptical. Where did he come from?

[natrat]

49. i agree- i dont dig him at all

[theHandpuppet]

52. Agreed

Too slick. There's something about Obama that just leaves me... uneasy.

[omega minimo]

58. Well put Dover. And brave to admit to gut feelings. Obama comes off a A Player

He may be genuine, may be all that-- he needs to lose the sense of how impressed he is with himself while he's impressing us. Very intelligent and articulate but how has he voted? Great speech at the convention-- did he stand up with Tubbs-Jones and Boxer when our election was stolen (again)?

Makes great speeches but he states the obvious. People get excited because they haven't heard it said in a while.

He may be a good candidate. He is definitely a good performer. What's distracting is the sense he's watching himself perform, too. And LOVING it!

[Matariki]

60. I wish Americans would start to elect people on their voting records

and public works. NOT on 'the feeling' they get from the person.

[mvd]

71. I agree

I don't dislike Obama, but I'm not enchanted by him. Sometimes his talk of uniting Americans reeks too much of giving in and accepting. Like he's pandering too much. Still, his votes haven't been too bad.

[Infinite Hope]

14. You mean he isn't automatically going to get "black" support?

Essentially what many other DUers and many analysts have said. It seems like an obvious point to me. We've seen it proven time and time again, blacks vote based on the specific agenda and are not "one person." Those of African descent may come to the same conclusion, but they arrive at it through their own individual deliberation.

They vote 90% for Democrats, but we're talking about a primary - all candidates are Democrats so all candidates could potentially meet the standards for some blacks. Therefore, "blacks" are going to be split. How that split will be divided is yet to be seen, but they will not flock to a single candidate in a field of what likely will be a dozen candidates including Hillary, Edwards, Clark, and Sharpton.

[xultar]

25. Black activists are just like the white activists who think he's to corporate.

[sandnsea]

28. And Hillary isn't?

You must be joking. What anti-corporate candidate is black America considering? They didn't like Edwards in 2004, I hardly think they'll beat a path to his door this time around. Of the ones running so far, Obama is it for Dems who care about economic justice.

[Infinite Hope]

37. Wrong. At this point, Sharpton likes Edwards over the rest. (Quote/Link)

"Despite widespread interest in the likely candidacy of another influential black Democrat, Illinois Sen. Barack Obama (news, bio, voting record), Sharpton said he's heard little substantive discussion of issues that might influence his decision about running.

"Right now we're hearing a lot of media razzle dazzle," Sharpton said. "I'm not hearing a lot of meat, or a lot of content. I think when the meat hits the fire, we'll find out if it's just fat or if there's some real meat there."

Sharpton said the candidate who impressed him most so far was former North Carolina Sen.
John Edwards, who has made poverty the central issue of his campaign."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x3074939

[Connie_Corleone]

40. That's one black person.

[xultar]

53. WTF does Hillary have to do with this fuckin post? I didn't even mention her.

Please don't reply to any of my posts.

[candidate]

29. Seeing as how Jackson, Sharpton, and Belafonte are fools...

I don't see what's so important about their opinions. I seriously doubt anyone listens to those clowns anymore.

[retread]

50. What an odious, hateful little thing to say. n/t

[AtomicKitten]

33. I think Sharpton & Jackson's activist collective shelf life has expired

and they are now really personalities in the Black community. That said, rumor has it among the rank and file that HRC has worked hard to shore up the support of the Black community, but I don't see that holding firm if Obama declares. Obama has much more substance than many here give him credit for; much has been posted about his record in the Illinois State Senate as well as in the current Congress. But, as always, all our speculation is just for fun. We shall see.

[Mass]

34. Amazing how Obama frightens Hillary's supporters if

they find necessary to post articles about Sharpton and Bellafonte not rushing to endorse Obama?

My feeling is that Sharpton is doing the best thing for Obama by not rushing to endorse him.

[Infinite Hope]

39. Interesting...

I don't know the original poster's preference, but posting such articles does not itself mean they're a Clinton supporter or a supporter of any particular person. They may very well be posting news like anyone else for discussionary purposes.

As for your other point ("My feeling is that Sharpton is doing the best thing for Obama by not rushing to endorse him.")...very interesting.

[carpe diem]

42. just my two cents but...

i think this, if true, could work to his advantage...In this country, having black activists out there saying "he's our man" would turn off substantial numbers of white voters and not just the 30% backwash as Stephen Colbert calls them...for the average, middle of the road, white voter to pull the lever for Obama or any black candidate for PRESIDENT of the US, they will have to feel an extraordinary level of comfort with him. A level of comfort they do not feel with the Jesse Jacksons and Al Sharptons and more activist black politicians...they are easily charicatured and marginalized by the RW controlled media. I even think that the people quoted in that article are aware of this and not wanting to give him the kiss of death by jumping up to support him, they are giving him the space he needs to gain the BROAD support from middle America that he must have to be a serious contender...

...and i don't think that black voters are going to have as much of a problem with his lack of slave ancestry as his political opponents might wish..Bill
Clinton is likely the decendent of SLAVEOWNERS and he was annointed by many black folk to be the 1st black president, and still has huge popularity among the black masses.. if BIGDOG can connect with black voters in spite of his lack of slave ancestry, i think Obama can probably pull it off...

[crispini]

48. The Bigdog grew up poor and southern

Not true of Obama....

[carpe diem]

68. i like to think that the range of the African-American experience...

is a little broader than being poor and from the south...a whole lot of us grew up north of the Mason-Dixon and working/middle class...and Clinton is still the beneficiary of white skin which is valued in this counry and Obama is not...before he was a celebrity, he couldn't get a cab in NY like most black men...his African ancestry didn't spare him the same superficial judgements other minorities face...

[La Coliniere]

51. Can't say for sure

whether or not this represents the machinations of the "Clinton strategy" at play, or simply a reflection of the job Obama's done since being in office. He seems pretty much a run of the mill opportunistic corporate player, like most. Although Kucinich reflects my political beliefs most thoroughly, I'm a pragmatist and I'd have to agree with Mr. Sharpton - a man whom I often disagree with - out of all the announced Dem candidates, John Edwards is the one most worthy of our support.

[davsand]

54. It is a mistake to think that ANY group will vote "as directed."

I look at this thread and I am struck by the range of responses. On one hand we are happy to bash on our potential candidates and our leadership (Obama bad, Hilary bad, Edwards bad, Sharpton bad, etc) however, we are perfectly willing to make the leap of faith that ANYONE (or maybe I should say everyone) gives a crap what any particular "leader" thinks.

It really IS Primary season, I guess.

I think that as opinion leaders people really DO care what Jackson, Sharpton, Clinton, Dean and (insert name here) think on any given subject. I also think, however, that the opinions they put out are just that--OPINIONS. I do not think that any given pundit speaks for an entire demographic, nor do I think that it is possible to determine this early in the race with any real certainty how people will vote.

I think it is dangerous to sit here and say that (insert name here) is far and away the best candidate, and I think it is also probably not a good plan to write ANYONE off at this point in time. We have a LONG way to go to get to election day.

Personally, I am an Obama fan. I worked hard for him in his Senate Primary here in Illinois and I knew some of his campaign staffers. In my opinion it was a class act from the candidate all the way down the food chain. I've talked to Obama and I'll say without reservation that there is a great DEAL of substance there.

I am also a Clarkie. I think the General is an awesome man with a wonderful family and I think he's very electable. If there was EVER a smart man in the political arena, he's it.

I like Edwards. Years ago (when he was a Freshman Senator) I remember sitting on Salon and discussing the thought that Edwards was the "real deal." He's pretty, he's smart, he's got a great family, and he's good on my issues.

I am lukewarm on Hilary, but that is just my opinion from out in left field. I know a lady who worked closely with Senator Clinton's office in the wake of 9/11 and she holds the Senator in high esteem. Knowing the dire situation they were working in and knowing how strong the emotions were at that point in time it speaks volumes that a relief worker speaks well of a Senator after the fact. The needs were huge and by all accounts the Senator moved mountains for those who needed it.

Anyhow, to sum it all up, I think that it is real easy to sit here now and offer up analysis that will be FAR off the mark by the time the Primary is in full swing. I recognize my own bias, and I hope that bias will not put me in a situation where I write somebody off before I have fully educated myself about the other candidates.

I'd hope that my fellow progressives here at DU would take a similar attitude.

Regards!


Laura

[yurbud]

59. to the extent that story is true, they are being smart and not giving knee jerk support to anyone

Once they give that support, they will be taken for granted by that candidate, and the rest of the field will have an excuse to ignore them.

It is a positive version of the position Lieberman is in right now. As the most extreme DINO, he is courted by Dems and Republicans.


Further, while Obama might be further left than Hillary, a stronger candidate may yet emerge who is even better for African Americans and America as a whole, and that person may or may not be black.

[yurbud]

61. like media shock that blacks weren't in love with Colin Powell like they were supposed to be

when he floated trial balloons in the 90s. Republicans were thinking, "Hey, yur sposed to like him cuz he's one o' yur PEOPLE. Don't be looking at issues & shit. Jis vote fur him..."

[3121guitarist]

63. Proud of these black activists.

Good to see people not just jump on a racial bandwagon. This country has progressed rather nicely, I'd say. And you know Jessie Jackson never wants to piss off the Clintons, who he is in the pockets of.

[omega minimo]

64. The key here is not color, but economics and the quote in #36

Infinite Hope #36.
Check this:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

"Right now we're hearing a lot of media razzle dazzle," Sharpton said. "I'm not hearing a lot of meat, or a lot of content. I think when the meat hits the fire, we'll find out if it's just fat or if there's some real meat there."

No one claims these leaders speak for all black people. They are historic CIVIL RIGHTS leaders. They fought for civil rights way back and the Congressional Black Caucus has been IN THE LEAD fighting for ALL OF OUR civil rights during the Bush Misadministration, during the stolen elections, during the DSM hearings Conyers had to hold in the broom closet.................

The issue is the upcoming election will be socioeconomic. Who are the Corporatists? Who are the Populists?

"Sharpton said the candidate who impressed him most so far was former North Carolina Sen. John Edwards, who has made poverty the central issue of his campaign."

Even more insulting than anyone thinking black voters or leaders should automatically endorse a black candidate are the comments in this thread dismissing the relevance or "shelf life" of historic black civil rights leaders. The biggest issue of all right now IS (all of our) civil rights -- which if you haven't noticed have been taken "off the table."

We should all be grateful to those who continue to fight for American's civil rights. And those who understand that the barrier is not a color line, it is a $.

[scarletwoman]

65. Good. His charm is lost on me, too. (nt)

[Mandate My Ass]

72. Same here

At best I'd say I'm very cool to him. The fact that I don't think he has a snowball's chance in hell makes this news more :boring: than :grr: .

[WI_DEM]

74. how many anti-Obama threads does this make for you now?