Deep Tinfoil from the Jackpine Jungle

[Jackpine Radical]

I've slowly been evolving a model of how the world works. This model is put together from a lot of different clues, gathered over 40-some years of observing events. Here is a sort of first-approximation of the resulting picture. All comments are invited.

I think the course of international politics is a sort of summated result of many cross-currents in play across the globe. At one level there is the slow-moving, transgenerational force of the Old Money on both sides of the Atlantic. Think European royal families, Rothschilds, etc. Then there is another layer, the "politicians," who include people like the Neocons, who see themselves as players at a grand chess game between power blocs (U.S. v. Russia v. China v. the Common Market). Then there is another level, the upstart merchants lie the Waltons, who are scrambling to climb into the Old Money echelons. I think all these secretive forces keep shifting around in a changing mosaic of interlocking interests, and they negotiate with each other in ways that might be symbolized by Bohemian Grove and the Bilderberg meetings. The public media serve as a cloak of invisibility over all these dark forces.

[Az]

1. I am going to repost something

I posted this in response to another thread concerning conspiracy theories and the desire to understand the machinations going on behind the scenes.

Knowledge and Control.

This is what we are born utterly lacking and set about attempting to achieve. When we are born we are not even aware of self. It takes time to accumulate enough knowledge about the universe and our place in it for us to begin to discern a difference between us and that table over there. Soon we begin to learn that there are bits of the universe that we can control. Arms. Legs. Eyelids. Bottoms. But we also start to note that there are things we cannot control ... like that aforementioned table over there.

We eventually run into other human beings and attempt to see if we can control them as well. After a while we find we cannot directly control them but that they do respond to certain behaviour. So we learn that there is some control and we set about trying to figure out how that works.

The desire for control and knowledge stays with us always. Eventually we learn our effective limits but this does not change that we want more. We want to control the environment. We want to control the things happening around us. In the absense of that control we want to understand what is controling things.

It is this desire for control and knowlegde that is a large part of the source for the continued existance of constructs such as gods and conspiracy theories. Both seek to offer an explanation for the controls behind the things we lack the ability to control. The thought persists that if only we had enough knowledge or control we would be able to break the hold these things have on our lives. If we could peer behind the curtain and see the controls then maybe we could operate them ourselves.

[Jackpine Radical]

3. I'm pretty familiar with the elements of developmental psychology,

and I don't know that I agree precisely with the view you present here, for reasons ranging from Kantian theory to current findings in psychophysiology.

In any case, are you saying we shouldn't try to figure out the forces underlying the "tectonic" movements we see in world society?

[Az]

6. Not really

More an observation as to the motivations as to why some people are drawn to conspiracy notions and looking for the patterns in the system. Whether they exist or not is a seperate issue. Let us say that larger and more pervasive the conspiracy theory the less likely it is to be true due to statistical issues. Keeping such a thing off the radar becomes increasingly difficult as more people become involved. Small scale conspiracies are more likely and do happen but they do not have the far reaching and pervasiveness sought by many that seek such things.

[zeemike]

10. I think you are naive to think that large scale cannot happen

In fact they are more likely where there are competing powers. like the Mafia, the CIA, and political power brokers.
It is clear to me that these groups have cooperated in the past to do such things as assassinate a siting president for one.
And in other more practical ways like running guns to South America and bringing back drugs and dumping them in the inner cities.
Never underestimate the intelligence of the greedy and ruthless.

[Az]

11. Reread what I said

Specifically the larger a conspiracy the less likely it becomes. This does not mean it is impossible. Just that such things become increasingly difficult to maintain over time without the conspiracy falling apart.

[rman]

19. Large conspiracies occur at high levels of power

Sure there are fewer large conspiracies than small conspiracies.

A large conspiracy where the conspirators have little power is very likely to be exposed.
But more power = more power to cover things up.
Conspirators tend to create conspiracies that they can maintain. So at high levels of power conspiracies tend to be larger - not necessarily involving many people, but certainly having more far-reaching effects than small conspiracies.

[Az]

20. Define the difference

between collusion and conspiracy.

[rman]

22. why?

they're essentially the same


collusion
A secret agreement between two or more parties for a fraudulent, illegal, or deceitful purpose.

conspiracy
An agreement to perform together an illegal, wrongful, or subversive act.

www.thefreedictionary.com

[Az]

23. One word carries a lot more baggage

Conspiracy for many implies control. As if the world dances at the conspiracists pleasure. Collusion does not convey this in the same way. It merely suggests that there are those who are trying to bend the rules to their favor.

Lets put it this way. You wil have a much easier time talking to people about collusion theories than you will conspiracy theories. Words carry more than just their dry definitions with them in society.

[rman]

26. The world dances at the collusionists pleasure

All those wars, coups, assassinations of heads of state, rigging international trade regulations, stealing elections, owning the mass media, etc - due to and at the benefit of owners and financiers of large corporations. That to me amounts to a lot of control, be it the result of collusion or the result of conspiracy.

[Az]

27. Control versus influence

It may seem I am splitting hairs. But it is an important difference. Control implies awareness of consequences far removed from the initiating point. The best even the most powerful CEO can hope for is to influence things.

See here is the thing. Conspiracy creates a sensation of helplessness in the face of mighty forces that make everything happen around you. Collusion just means greedy old men in rooms trying to pad their wallets a bit more. One can be fought the other drives people to dispare.

[rman]

28. You seem to argue

that "control" does not really exist - why would i be able to control something while a CEO can only hope to influence things?
Besides, influence to can be very beneficial. Influence from a lot of different angles, geared towards the same goal, is even more beneficial. We don't just have greedy old men in rooms; greedy old men men in different rooms collude with one another as well. Many CEOs are CEO at several corporations.

I think the distinction between control and influence is mostly semantic.


You also seem to argue that the reason to use the word "collusion" instead of "conspiracy" is mostly psychological.
I for one don't feel any less helpless when i think of these things in terms of "collusion" instead of "conspiracy". And people who i talk to about this don't need any suggestions from me to come with the term "conspiracy".

[Az]

29. I agree the issue is subtle

But I think it warrants consideration. Conspiracy advocates are more often than not seeking that which controls the world around them. They see patterns in patterns and turn to all manner of inconslusive observations to draw their conclusions. This is Illuminati stuff. Some generational cabal of individuals controling the world from the shadows.

Of course there are going to be collusions of power in our society. But they are no where near as solid as the conspiracy theorists would like to believe. The trouble is that they have assigned personalities to the various groups they envision controling things behind the scenes. In truth there are a multitude of individuals that are vying for influence and their motivation varies from individual to individual. They can be in collusion in one moment and oppositional the next. Thus long term such groups do not stand up over time without experiencing entropy.

[Jcrowley]

35. Here's a bit to consider

from Michael Parenti's book, "Dirty Truth":

"Almost as an article of faith, some individuals believe that conspiracies are either kooky fantasies or unimportant aberrations. To be sure, wacko conspiracy theories do exist. There are people who believe that the United States has been invaded by a secret United Nations army equipped with black helicopters, or that the country is secretly controlled by Jews or gays or feminists or black nationalists or communists or extraterrestrial aliens. But it does not logically follow that all conspiracies are imaginary.

Conspiracy is a legitimate concept in law: the collusion of two or more people pursuing illegal means to effect some illegal or immoral end. People go to jail for committing conspiratorial acts. Conspiracies are a matter of public record, and some are of real political significance. The Watergate break-in was a conspiracy, as was the Watergate cover-up, which led to Nixon's downfall. Iran-contra was a conspiracy of immense scope, much of it still uncovered. The savings and loan scandal was described by the Justice Department as "a thousand conspiracies of fraud, theft, and bribery," the greatest financial crime in history."

Conspiracy or Coincidence?

<snip>

Those who suffer from conspiracy phobia are fond of saying: "Do you actually think there's a group of people sitting around in a room plotting things?" For some reason that image is assumed to be so patently absurd as to invite only disclaimers. But where else would people of power get together - on park benches or carousels? Indeed, they meet in rooms: corporate boardrooms, Pentagon command rooms, at the Bohemian Grove, in the choice dining rooms at the best restaurants, resorts, hotels, and estates, in the many conference rooms at the White House, the NSA, the CIA, or wherever. And, yes, they consciously plot - though they call it "planning" and "strategizing" - and they do so in great secrecy, often resisting all efforts at public disclosure. No one confabulates and plans more than political and corporate elites and their hired specialists. To make the world safe for those who own it, politically active elements of the owning class have created a national security state that expends billions of dollars and enlists the efforts of vast numbers of people.

Yet there are individuals who ask with patronizing, incredulous smiles, do you really think that the people at the top have secret agendas, are aware of their larger interests, and talk to each other about them? To which I respond, why would they not? This is not to say that every corporate and political elite is actively dedicated to working for the higher circles of power and property. Nor are they infallible or always correct in their assessments and tactics or always immediately aware of how their interests are being affected by new situations. But they are more attuned and more capable of advancing their vast interests than most other social groups."

[rman]

37. Right, like there is no powerful wealthy cabal that makes it its business

to preserve its heritage, where its heritage is the power and wealth they have aggregated over many generations.

It doesn't matter whether you call them NWO, global elite, power elite, global mafia, illuminati or whatever. The individuals that make up that cabal have the same goal: obtain yet more power and wealth - and the effects of it are very similar all over the globe regardless of which of these individuals are involved in each specific case. They don't necessarily need to talk about their overall goals because "it takes one to know one". Yet still they do meet and talk, for instance at the Bilderberg meeting.
Talking about different motives here is as relevant as talking about whether a thief steals to pay for a new car or to pay for a new TV.

[nannah]

7. hi

inherent in the idea of control has to be perspective, context, and time frame; initially what you are calling control is very immediate, i'm hungry, i cry, i get fed (for those who are fortunate enough to be born into this paradigm), etc.

what is more idiosyncratic among people and species is a capacity to broaden this out from immediate needs toward longer and larger and more complex areas of control. i think instinct for survival drives the initiation of broadening control; and because the need/desire/ability to broaden control is idiosyncratic, issues of immediate survival clash with controls from those who are controlling larger territories.

i think this is essentially what you are saying, jackpine. I have come to believe that if we look closely, we can see patterns that yield survival; that we are a species with an instinct for survival; that external control systems disrupt people's survival sense.

for instance: the external controls of competitive economics have caused companies to promote toxic products and practices to boost their bottom line while soiling their own environment. this is counter to instinct for survival since we are aware of role of clean air, water, etc.

admittedly, this is a very simple description of a very complex situation. but perhaps at heart it is the repetition of this pattern, over and over, that creates the complexity.

[Fire Walk With Me]

24. Must...control...table...

Sorry, that's a good post and sums up America quite well (so how does Canada do without a proportionate amount of gun deaths?)

[Virginia Dare]

2. That is pretty good summation imo...

once you acknowledge that you truly have no control over what happens in the world, and that no event occurs in a vacuum, then you can understand it a little bit better.

[groovedaddy]

4. Presidents Know best?

As much as conspiracy theorists are demonized, often enough because their contentions don’t hold up on closer scrutiny, we Americans still love to speculate. Those who quickly discount the idea that wealthy and powerful people conspire, even to direct national policy, should consider the words of the following Presidents:


“It is not my intention to doubt that the doctrine of the Illuminati and the principles of Jacobinism had not spread in the United States. On the contrary, no one is more satisfied of this fact than I am.” George Washington – 1798

“I do conscientiously and sincerely believe that the Order of Freemasonry, if not the greatest, is one of the greatest moral and political evils…” John Quincy Adams - 1796

“I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country.” Thomas Jefferson Letter To George Logan in 1816

“Many of our rich men have not been content with equal protection and equal benefits, but have sought to make themselves richer by act of Congress.”
Andrew Jackson - Bank Veto message - 1832

“I am more than ever convinced of the dangers to which the free and unbiased exercise of political opinion - the only sure foundation and safeguard of republican government - would be exposed by any further increase of the already overgrown influence of corporate authorities.” Martin Van Buren - First annual message to Congress - December, 1837

“I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country...corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow and the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until all wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed.”1.
Abraham Lincoln -
November 1864 - (letter to Col. William F. Elkins)
Ref: The Lincoln Encyclopedia, Archer H. Shaw (Macmillan, 1950, NY)
This quote is disputed as not being provable. First appeared on a bag of flour sold in Illinois circa 1870s.

“This is a government of the people, by the people, and for the people no longer. It is a government of corporations, by corporations, and for corporations.”
Rutherford B. Hayes

“As we view the achievements of aggregated capital, we discover the existence of trusts, combinations and monopolies, while the citizen is struggling far in the rear or is trampled to death beneath an iron heel. Corporations, which should be the carefully restrained creatures of the law and the servants of the people, are fast becoming the people’s masters.” Grover Cleveland - Annual address to Congress - December, 1888

"Whoever controls the volume of money in any country is absolute master of all industry and commerce." James A. Garfield

“Behind the ostensible government sits enthroned an invisible government owing no allegiance and acknowledging no responsibility to the people. To destroy this invisible government, to befoul the unholy alliance between corrupt business and corrupt politics is the first task of the statesmanship of today.” Theodore Roosevelt April, 1906

“Since I entered politics, I have chiefly had men’s views confided to me privately. Some of the biggest men in the U.S., in the field of commerce and manufacture, are afraid of something. They know that there is a power somewhere so organized, so subtle, so watchful, so interlocked, so complete, so pervasive., that they had better not speak above their breath when they speak in condemnation of it.” Woodrow Wilson

“The real truth of the matter is, as you and I know, that a financial element in the large centers has owned the government of the U.S. since the days of Andrew Jackson.”
Franklin Roosevelt – Letter to Mr. E.M. House

“In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex…
the potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes.”

Dwight Eisenhower - Farewell speech

“The very word ‘secrecy’ is repugnant in a free and open society, and we are as a people inherently and historically opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.” John F. Kennedy


“In our obsession with antagonisms of the moment, we often forget how much unites all the members of humanity. Perhaps we need some outside, universal threat to make us recognize this common bond. I occasionally think how quickly our differences worldwide would vanish if we were facing an alien threat from outside of this world. And yet I ask – is not an alien force already among us?”
Ronald Reagan – To the U.N. 9/21/87

“If the people knew what we had done, they would chase us down the street and lynch us.” George H.W. Bush – to Sarah McClendon – Journalist – June 1992

"Well Jordan, you're not going to believe what state I was in when I heard about the terrorist attack. I was in Florida. And my chief of staff, Andy Card -- actually, I was in a classroom talking about a reading program that works. And I was sitting outside the classroom waiting to go in, and I saw an airplane hit the tower--the TV. was obviously on, and I use to fly myself, and I said, 'There's one terrible pilot.' And I said, 'It must have been a terrible accident.’” George W. Bush – Response to question of how he felt on the morning of 9/11 when he realized what was going on. Town Meeting in Orlando, Florida 12/4/01 Repeated again one month later in Ontario, California. Choked on a pretzel a few days after that. I hate when that happens!

[Jackpine Radical]

12. Wow. Thank you.

All juxtaposed like that, those quotes leave me breathless.

[valerief]

16. Thanks for those wonderful quotations. nt

[Junkdrawer]

5. Back in the 19th century, when things were more visible....

the worry was always that Old European Money would take over our economy, especially through centralized banking. But with the rise of Standard Oil and other Robber Barons, we wound up with our own breed of financiers that overtook the "old money".

I think a similar dynamic is building between the current Western "Money Masters" and China. Soon Chinese money moguls will emerge and they will become the new world economic leaders. I also see the machinations going on in the Middle East as a last ditch attempt by the current Western "Money Masters" to gain as much leverage as they can while they have the military advantage.

[sweetheart]

8. Add global warming

Lets say that behind the curtain, they are well aware that global warming stands to melt
the himalayan glaciers and cause water shortage and lowland flooding deaths of near a billion
people by a deliberate act they are pushing on all social channels. This will weaken the new
power blocks in asia and allow the old money eschelons to re-assert their dominance on the
world stage.. that same old money that owns the whole petroinfrastructure.

Your theory seems pretty complete... 'the creature from jekyll island' confirms it.

[donsu]

9. true

nt

[LSK]

15. except global warming means putting Europe in an Ice Age

When the ice on Greenland melts, it disrupts the Gulf Stream which keeps northern Europe warm.

[sweetheart]

25. Old money is mobile

Before this ice age, it floods out all the liberal port cities that have fought
with their populations world wide for equal rights with kapital, and with that
battle flooded out, kapital owns whatever high ground it can.

Al Gore's movie does not answer the question of how long it really takes to form
an ice age... the transition time looks like a level period 10,000 years long.

[PATRICK]

13. If they all disappeared

without more reptiles immediately filling their spots, would this negatively impact humankind or would humanity at least briefly flourish for the time necessary to work out its own possible survival? the whole elite bunch and wannabes are remoras on the back of the Death shark- except that non-human parasites don't require honors and rewards and absolute power to cloak their nature.

The sorry state of human civil society rots at the head worldwide and in the lifeblood of its economic systems where numbers and status replace physical reality to the limits of sanity and beyond. The contributors to human progress are scientists, artists, true public servants, visionaries, workers, engineers, inventors, farmers, explorers etc. The worst of the rest express the senility of obsolescent history responsible for 10,000 years of useless wars and oppression and abuse. Eventuality they are all bitter losers looking for a comeback, but the "eventually" is running out for everyone. The whole global population realizes the system needs to be turned upside down but is temporarily stymied by the self-perpetuating self-invented rules of old power that corrupt reason and democracy and threaten to bring the whole world down around them.

The public media is a smokescreen machine that portrays and/or believes its duty is to pierce and interpret the fog. If it became a simple ethic priority to "do the real job" the whole world would be instantly better off in every sector.

[Prophet 451]

14. Not bad

However, I'm not sure that "old money" has that much sway anymore. Between the fortunes amassed by some in the new, information-based economy (obvious example: Bill Gates) and the increasing breakdown of the class structure that held them in power, the power of "old money" seems to be eroding.

Also, you have to include the interests of "institutionalised power" (i.e. the church) and the religious extremists (i.e. Tim LaHaye and his ilk) who have become so very powerful in recent years.

Finally, we have to remember that even within the three groups you outlined, there are numerous factions, sometimes cooperating, sometimes competing and many smaller cliques doing the same thing.

[valerief]

17. The ruling class use Earth as their toilet. They'll be living (or are)

in satellite communities around Earth or on the moon. Earth will be (or is) a tool for them, not a necessity. Their technology (not available to wastrels like us) is or will be advanced enough to perpetuate life and nourishment for them.

How's that? I mean, don't we all really think that?

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

18. You forgot the International Bankers and the Zionists n/t

[Orsino]

21. It's not just Old Money.

New Money acts that way, too. Old Money simply has a head start.

[Jackpine Radical]

30. New Money devotes most of it energy to becoming Old Money.

Nothing is fixed, but the changes at the Old Money level are more glacial than revolutionary. For example, much of the current Old Money nuclei arose in the days of the Hanseatic League and replaced some aspects of the earlier feudal power structures.

[Orsino]

31. There's an understandable impulse there...

...in that every parent wants to leave something behind for the next generation. For the already very rich, though, that means working to support a hereditary nobility. Hence, Old Money as a goal.

[BeHereNow]

32. It's all about POWER- Amassing more into the hands of fewer.

and always on the backs of the poor.

What Americans have not yet understood is that the global
"powers that be" have been waging war on them for decades.

BHN

[Jackpine Radical]

33. Yeh. Exactly.

[David Zephyr]

34. "The history of all hitherto existing society is the history of class struggles."

Actually, you are not far off, Jackpine Radical.

Karl Marx summed it all up quite well way back in 1848:

A spectre is haunting Europe -- the spectre of communism. All the powers of old Europe have entered into a holy alliance to exorcise this spectre: Pope and Tsar, Metternich and Guizot, French Radicals and German police-spies.

The history of all hitherto existing society is the history of class struggles.

Freeman and slave, patrician and plebian, lord and serf, guild-master and journeyman, in a word, oppressor and oppressed, stood in constant opposition to one another, carried on an uninterrupted, now hidden, now open fight, a fight that each time ended, either in a revolutionary reconstitution of society at large, or in the common ruin of the contending classes.

In the earlier epochs of history, we find almost everywhere a complicated arrangement of society into various orders, a manifold gradation of social rank. In ancient Rome we have patricians, knights, plebians, slaves; in the Middle Ages, feudal lords, vassals, guild-masters, journeymen, apprentices, serfs; in almost all of these classes, again, subordinate gradations.

The modern bourgeois society that has sprouted from the ruins of feudal society has not done away with class antagonisms. It has but established new classes, new conditions of oppression, new forms of struggle in place of the old ones.

Our epoch, the epoch of the bourgeoisie, possesses, however, this distinct feature: it has simplified class antagonisms. Society as a whole is more and more splitting up into two great hostile camps, into two great classes directly facing each other -- bourgeoisie and proletariat.

From the serfs of the Middle Ages sprang the chartered burghers of the earliest towns. From these burgesses the first elements of the bourgeoisie were developed.

The discovery of America, the rounding of the Cape, opened up fresh ground for the rising bourgeoisie. The East-Indian and Chinese markets, the colonisation of America, trade with the colonies, the increase in the means of exchange and in commodities generally, gave to commerce, to navigation, to industry, an impulse never before known, and thereby, to the revolutionary element in the tottering feudal society, a rapid development.

The feudal system of industry, in which industrial production was monopolized by closed guilds, now no longer suffices for the growing wants of the new markets. The manufacturing system took its place. The guild-masters were pushed aside by the manufacturing middle class; division of labor between the different corporate guilds vanished in the face of division of labor in each single workshop.

Meantime, the markets kept ever growing, the demand ever rising. Even manufacturers no longer sufficed. Thereupon, steam and machinery revolutionized industrial production. The place of manufacture was taken by the giant, MODERN INDUSTRY; the place of the industrial middle class by industrial millionaires, the leaders of the whole industrial armies, the modern bourgeois.

Modern industry has established the world market, for which the discovery of America paved the way. This market has given an immense development to commerce, to navigation, to communication by land. This development has, in turn, reacted on the extension of industry; and in proportion as industry, commerce, navigation, railways extended, in the same proportion the bourgeoisie developed, increased its capital, and pushed into the background every class handed down from the Middle Ages.

We see, therefore, how the modern bourgeoisie is itself the product of a long course of development, of a series of revolutions in the modes of production and of exchange.

Each step in the development of the bourgeoisie was accompanied by a corresponding political advance in that class. An oppressed class under the sway of the feudal nobility, an armed and self-governing association of medieval commune: here independent urban republic (as in Italy and Germany); there taxable "third estate" of the monarchy (as in France); afterward, in the period of manufacturing proper, serving either the semi-feudal or the absolute monarchy as a counterpoise against the nobility, and, in fact, cornerstone of the great monarchies in general -- the bourgeoisie has at last, since the establishment of Modern Industry and of the world market, conquered for itself, in the modern representative state, exclusive political sway. The executive of the modern state is but a committee for managing the common affairs of the whole bourgeoisie.

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/ch01.htm

[unkachuck]

36. I like it Jackpine....

....and the common thread is wealth and who controls it....or, global capitalists and their hidden power....

....could we not be participating in some global resource allocating organization which would distribute resources based on need and equity?....instead we have our capitalists over in Iraq trying to steal oil with our war machine....

....isn't the only economic model tolerated in the world a capitalist model?....don't many or all of the worlds major problems enanate from that model?....

....tell me, what ISN'T controlled by capital and who ever questions this model?....are we allow to discuss and democratically chose another model?....they own the media and use for control and diversion....why are we discussing this here instead of on ABC or NBC?

....and to think they don't plan and communicate the maintenance of their wealth and power with each other, is ridiculous....wouldn't you?