In defense of "douchebag"

[jgraz]

Great feminist post on the value of the word "douchebag". Expect this poster to be blocked by all the language police in short order.

Does this mean I have to start smelling like vinegar and lavendar?

Published by Amanda Marcotte April 24th, 2006

No, this isn’t going to be a post on how I met Caitlin Flanagan and she recruited me. This post is in defense of the term “douchebag” as an insult. This is necessary because of this post claiming that terms ending in “bag” are inherently sexist. And you don’t pick on Twisty’s glorious coinage “godbag” without tangling with me. I can think of a shitload of terms that end with “bag” that have no sexist connotations to them, including “windbag” and “shitbag”, both of which actually tend to be aimed at men way more than women.

The truth is that “bag” is just a word meaning “that which is full of something”. As Twisty explains:

A godbag, if you will permit me the impropriety of quoting from my own rather extensive body of work on the subject, is “a bag full of hate and self-loathing wearing stage makeup that makes it look like a televangelist.” The suffix “-bag” alludes, not to a douche or to a woman whose countenance does not conform to patriarchal beauty standards, but to a “sack” or other sort of carryall.

“Sack” is a slang term for testicles, but that doesn’t mean when I say someone weighs more than a sack of potatoes, I’m saying they weigh more than someone’s nut sack, because that would be stupid.

But now that we’ve come back from the abyss a little here, I want to defend “douchebag” as a perfectly feminist insult. After all, it’s a bag full of douche and we good feminists know that douche is definitely a Tool of the Patriarchy. As such, I would suggest that when people use the term “douchebag”, they’re actually calling them a tool, which is also a fine word that gets wielded often against the slack-jawed morons who reflexively support the patriarchy because they just know their reward is coming for it any day now. For instance, I once knew a guy who thought he was styling when he wore a tie with the Playboy bunny on it. That guy was both a douchebag and a tool, as they are synonymous.


http://pandagon.net/2006/04/24/does-this-mean-i-have-to-start-smelling-like-vinegar-and-lavendar/

[sniffa]

1. i'm waiting for the 'scumbag' thread

afteraLL, a condom has got to have some history of yadda yadda

[jgraz]

2. Logic is not the point of silly language police posts

It's mostly an attempt to push people around when you don't have the intellectual capacity to start a debate on a real subject.

[tuvor]

19. Found this earlier today.

Though most people seem not to realize it now, the original sense of scumbag was 'a condom', based on the slightly earlier, and both rather obvious, scum 'semen' and bag 'a condom'.

http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=19980429

[enigmatic]

21. yep

I once had a band (that lasted about 5 minutes)named The Scumbags....

[jgraz]

23. Not only that

but you might be surprised to know that "motherfucking cocksucker" also has an interesting sexual origin...

[mark414]

3. somebody will always find a way to be offended by everything

[jgraz]

4. yep

love the avatar, btw!

[Bluebear]

7. In case you missed it :)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=3137379&mesg_id=3137379

[jgraz]

9. Blocked too, huh?

I so love this new DU feature. :sarcasm:

Great post, btw. Too bad it got locked, but seriously, what did the mods expect to happen?

[Marnieworld]

71. wow

That was great. thaks

[enigmatic]

5. Great post

:thumbsup:

[OneBlueSky]

6. geez . . . when I read the title, I thought this thread would be about defending Bush . . . n/t

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

8. That Thread About It Was A Bit Over The Top.

I can understand why some may be offended by the term, but it still seems that thread was a bit melodramatic about it.

Either way, though we shouldn't be mandated to not use words that are grey in their premise of being offensive, we should at least use good judgment and personal discretion on whether or not we choose to use them.

From a personal standpoint, I can't relate at all to the concept of finding the term douchebag offensive, but to each their own.

[jgraz]

12. BTW, OMC...

You might be interested to know that a number of posters were blocked from replying to that thread once they disagreed with the OP. The balkanization of DU continues.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

13. Hey, I Had The Esteemed Honor Of Being The First Blocked By That Particular Poster.

Interesting to see though that the threads contain no fewer flames then when I was present, however. :rofl:

[jgraz]

14. Welcome to the club!

I haven't felt so honored since I won a DUzy.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

16. I Must Say Though;

Being blocked by that poster has spared me not only from all sorts of ignorant attack, but also from wasting my time trying to defend against it as well. That's why though I know you don't support it, I don't mind this feature. It not only keeps those who can't handle civility from replying, but it also has saved me an immense amount of time from feeling the constant need to respond to the attacks in defense, thereby assisting in a useless subthread that ends up irritating the rest of DU who doesn't give a shit about the personal battles between posters, ya know?

[jgraz]

18. A reasonable point...

though because you disagreed with me slightly I'm still going to block you :P

[Marnieworld]

73. how do you tell if you are blocked?

She never replied to me. My basic point was that she didn't consider the fact that all of the references cited were from the 1920s where people did not have indoor plumbing. Perhaps they really needed something so a product was born. It may not have begun from this evil mysognistic motivation. Just stupid products for clueless people 80 something years ago. I mean get over it.

I am a woman and I never used the phrase before I met my husband. Early in our relationship I started noticing it creeping into my speech and it amused me. It's oddly not a ladylike thing to say. ;) Yet, I dunno, it was fun to call someone. Fun to yell at with road rage. Rolls off the tongue well.

So yes I can read the whole thing (don't you love how if you disagreed with the premise you clearly hadn't read it? :eyes:) and still be ok with douchebag.

[enigmatic]

17. That's why I'll never use that function, ever

I'm not the overlord of who should or should not post on my threads, and I shouldn't be.

[VelmaD]

22. kind of funny you should mention blocking to OMC...

and not funny haha.

[jgraz]

34. I just find this whole blocking feature to be a complete cluster fuck

It's having exactly the opposite effect that the mods intended. More people are ending up pissed off and many of the liveliest debates are being completely balkanized. If you find that someone isn't respecting your feelings, the ignore list works just fine. But what gives any person the right to decide that they can censor what everyone else sees in response to their posts?

(apologies if "cluster fuck" bothered you (seriously), but it's the most apt phrase for how I feel about this feature)

[VelmaD]

37. clusterfuck is a great word

I totally agree with you that the block feature is being misused. The best part...I told Skinner exactly how it would be misused and I got to tell him "I told you so". :evilgrin:

And my reply was to your post because OMC has me blocked...wanta guess why?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

75. Because You've Been Consistently Abusive And Attacking Towards Me?

:shrug:

And with all sincerity, stop taking it so personally as if it somehow destroys your experience here. You have now made repeated public calling outs of my having blocked you, as if anyone actually cares. So a poster blocked you. It isn't the end of the world. Life goes on. Let it go.

[Quantess]

58. someone please define "clusterfuck".

Clusterfuck

[VelmaD]

60. it's military slang...

From wiktionary: A disastrous situation that results from the cumulative errors of several people or groups. In semi-polite company this is referred to as a Charlie Foxtrot.

[Quantess]

62. Thanks, VelmaD!

:toast: I like you!

[Manifestor_of_Light]

64. and MCF does not ....

And MCF does not mean "Thousand Cubic Feet".

The first word stands for "Mongolian". Three word term first used by William Burroughs in his novel "Naked Lunch".

[sendero]

74. Exactly..

.... and anyone who blocks anyone is a douchebag. And other things I can't say, like coward.

[izzybeans]

10. That was my point in that thread as well.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=3134331&mesg_id=3138126

Interesting debate about words, even if it is a word like douchebag. On edit again: I see what this is about. I guess I should have just put IBTL.

edited to add: for some reason I insisted on turning into two words in that post.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

11. sophomoric insults are so immature.

[ProfessorGAC]

15. I Know You Are But What Am I?

You mean like that? Sorry. I just couldn't resist.
The Professor

[progressoid]

20. love the douche bag chart. k/r

[AtomicKitten]

24. yes it's now suddenly so clear ...

[Quantess]

63. sorry, duplicate.

[LostInAnomie]

25. My favorite part of that thread was the specious logic.

"Well, bag was a slur against women in old timey times, and these douche ads are mean, and the suffrage movement was going on kinda around the same time... DOUCHEBAG IS A SLUR AGAINST SUFFRAGETTES!!!"

You would think that if the argument had any merit at all they would have at least one example of an anti-suffrage leader or even follower using the word "douchebag", but they don't.

So far I haven't been locked out of there. I'm not sure there's really anymore reason to head over there anyway. It is mostly just a group of about 5 anti-douchebag warriors doing hit pieces on posts people have long forgot about.

[jgraz]

26. Your work there is clearly done

The hysteria response was the post of the thread, IMHO. Nice work.

[Bluebear]

32. I still don't understand

why the whole history of douching has to be put into words to tell people they don't like the word.

[VelmaD]

35. because just telling people...

we don't like it has never actually worked to get people to voluntarily stop using gender slurs...not even here on DU. It apparently isn't enough just to say "that's offensive". Because people cling to their right to be offensive like a limpet.

[greyl]

38. To try to give the impression that their opinion is credible and fact based.

Similar reasons to why someone would claim falsely that Einstein believed in astrology.
A fake out, iow. ;)

[Quantess]

65. I absolutely agree with you! "douche" means wash in french

In the U.S.A., callling someone a "douchebag"

[Der Blaue Engel]

27. I find it's more satisfying to try to understand why something is hurtful to someone

and to simply disagree if I disagree rather than scream "help! help! I'm being represse!" at them. I respect that my feelings are not everyone else's, and I appreciate being clued in to things I may have missed in the nuance of language and etymology. It is then up to me whether I agree and choose to honor that person's request for more respectful language. I see no need to get defensive about it.

[VelmaD]

28. thank you

It's nice to know that some people still like to consider and respect other people's feelings. That's the part that I find endlessly frustrating and fascinating at the same time...how some posters on DU have no regard for other people. All that matters is their own right to be as offensive as they want to be.

[jgraz]

29. Respecting people's feelings is really not what the argument is about in this case

My problem is with someone posting tripe masquerading as etymology and then calling anyone who disagrees with her stupid and insensitive. In this case, the poster's history speaks for itself.

Everyone has their hot buttons with language, including me. But not everyone tries to gin up faux intellectual arguments to justify their personal preferences.

[VelmaD]

31. ok...then what evidence will convince you?

Seriously?

Any etymology data you will just disagree with and blow off. Personal pleas on this issue have repeatedly fallen on deaf ears. What does it take?

It is all about disregard for the feelings of others. I have said this about a thousand times and I will keep on repeating it til it gets through to everyone who needs to hear it. When someone tells you you've said something to offend them...a decent person apologizes and doesn't say it again. On the other hand, if you tell the person they're too sensitive or over-reacting or it isn't that big a deal or go on a rant about political correctness or basically just try to blame the other person for everything so you can keep right on being offensive...then you're an asshole.

The right to free speech does give you the right to say any offensive thing you want. But what some people around here don't seem to like is that it gives other people the right to call you on it. I know...because I've already been blocked by at least 4 people that I know of because they don't like it when people call them on their sexist bullshit.

[Bluebear]

36. The talk about diseased and filthy vaginas turned me off.

I'm sorry, I don't think one needs to give a treatis of douching from the 1920's in order to say "hello, this word is offensive."

[VelmaD]

39. read my post 35 above

Asking nicely hasn't worked

[Bluebear]

40. I see, perfect time to discuss intimate feminine hygiene details then. nt

[VelmaD]

41. are you not seeing the connection...

between your discomfort with the subject and why the word is so offensive to some people? Why are people so uncomfortable with that part of the female anatomy? Why has it been portrayed as disgusting and dirty? How utterly f'ed up is our society?

[Bluebear]

42. The post *you* are championing talks about 'women's foul-smelling, diseased genitalia'

Again. I don't think that reference is within the realm of 'general discussion' and should not be necessary to describe a pejorative you don't like.

I can tell you I don't like to be called asshole without presenting a detailed discussion of hemorrhoids and diarrhea.

P.S. I believe out of all my posts nothing has been anti-woman. I stand for woman's rights as I do my own.

[VelmaD]

44. I'm going to try to explain this one more time...

and then I'm out for the night...got to go back to work tomorrow after being iced in for 2 days.

Asking nicely has not worked. So the OP tried to explain why the term is so offensive...what it means and what it has been used to mean. You can't do that without getting into the gory details. Women know that our genitalia has historically been described as "foul-smellling" and "diseased" and in need of all sorts of ridiculous "feminine hygiene" products to make our bodies palatable to men. How do you think that makes us feel?

Sorry your delicate sensibilities got offended. But it was necessary to put it in context. Hopefully it aided some people in their journey toward getting it.

[jgraz]

48. "Sorry your delicate sensibilities got offended"

wow...just wow...

I guess women are the only people who have legitimately delicate sensibilities, no matter how far-fetched. Seriously, Velma, how quickly would you jump on me if I used that quote to respond to your request that I not use language you find offensive?

[VelmaD]

52. ok...I was being snide...

and aiming for a little ironic since as you point out, it's usually women who get tagged with the whole "delicate sensibilities" nonsense. Mea culpa.

I guess I'm a little put out by the whole notion that discussing women's private parts is somehow unseemly and not a fit topic for public discourse.

[jgraz]

46. But Velma, Bluebear has just told you that he finds such talk to be offensive

Aren't you, by your own definition, being an "asshole" for not apologizing to him?

[VelmaD]

49. I wasn't the OP in the thread we're refering to...

I'm discussing why the OP may have chosen to discuss the topic in gory detail.

If something I specifically said offended Bluebear, he can tell me so and I'll apologize. I don't like to offend people unintentionally. And that's what my little maxim on offending people is all about. There are karmic consequences for offending people...even accidentally...but moreso when you do it on purpose. If I'm going to offend someone and actively take on that karmic debt...I want to do it on purpose and make the most of it. :evilgrin:

And that's about as philosophical as I can be at 2 in the morning. :)

[Bluebear]

57. Please...

Vagina away. I'm not offended. :)

So, it comes down to the old "politically correct" thing. If you ask nicely that someone not use a term, and that is not good enough for them, well that's just plain rude. And no amount of historical perspective is likely to ring in their ears. I don't have a dog in this hunt anyhow, it's not a term I have used, and the only thing I know about it is memories of some menacing red plastic bag and hose that my mother hung from the shower. :hi:

[VelmaD]

59. I may have to borrow something you just said...

"If you ask nicely that someone not use a term, and that is not good enough for them, well that's just plain rude."

Probably says it better than my rant about being an asshole. :)

[jgraz]

43. you said it yourself -- etymology DATA

Not "Just So" stories. There are no citations of "douchebag" ever being used as a slur against women, just tenuous connections drawn by a writer who seems to have an axe to grind. The attack on "bag" is laughable on it's face, since most douches have an actual bag as part of their construction.

What I really object to is the kind of black-and-white statements that you're making: either I give in to every offense anyone may take at my use of language, or I'm an asshole. In reality, it really isn't that simple. Offensiveness is often very subjective, and calling someone names just because they don't share your sensitivities is just as counterproductive as the activities you're attacking.

That having been said, I draw a strong distinction between simply saying something that you may find offensive and saying something to you that I know you find offensive. In the first case, I'm just speaking as I choose. In the second, I'm being a ...well... I'll just say "jerk" and leave it at that.

[VelmaD]

47. I don't understand why it is so difficult for people to understand...

why calling someone a douchebag is offensive to women? It's not about whether the term is used at a specific woman. I'll concede that it's most often used at men. But that's the point...you're insulting a man by calling him the stuff that comes out of a woman's vagina...gee, why would that be offensive to women? :eyes: It's like calling a man a "pussy" or telling him he "throws like a girl" only with a more disgusting connotation...you're the nasty stuff that comes out of a giiiiiiiirrrrrrlll...eeeeeeeeeewwwwww.

Get it yet?

And why is it y'all seem to think our vaginas are so disgusting? Especially since so many straight men seem to devote so much energy into getting into them? I don't get it.

I'm going to bed. I've got work tomorrow. And if you don't understand it now after me explaining it as bluntly as I know how...then it's a pointless conversation.,

[jgraz]

50. douchebags come out of your vagina?

Seriously, you might want to get that looked at. At the very least, you should probably read the instructions on the package a bit more closely.

[VelmaD]

53. now you're being intentionally...

obtuse. I know you know what I'm talking about. And you know I know you know. :P

[jgraz]

54. just getting too tired for anything but undiluted smart-assery

I think I'll take your advice and turn in for the night... g'nite!

(though I still don't agree with you... :P )

[VelmaD]

55. it's ok...because...

I just replied in your D'Souza thread...and realized yet again that it's possible to disagree with someone on one thread and find them freakin' hilarious on another at the same time.

[jgraz]

56. funny, cuz I've decided that instead of calling someone a "douchebag"

I'm just going to call them a "D'Souza" -- Basically says the same thing.

[Quantess]

61. I'm a woman! And I don't understand.. The big deal!

Of course I do understand, though. But I don't really know why you are so afraid of men (or, any human) finding out what goes on in your daily-to-weekly-to-monthly regimen.

[Der Blaue Engel]

45. Well, I respectfully disagree

:)

[Quantess]

30. Being sensitive to feelings is a great gift.

Righteous indignation is something most people feel. Sorry for being so honest.

[greyl]

33. Was that to Amanda Marcotte? nt

[Quantess]

51. I don't know.

what do you think? You're a male, so what's your guess?
I will tell you right now, no, that was not my intent.

[EdwardM]

66. Its all stupid PC crap.

I don't give a fuck if people are called dicks, douches, cocks, cunts, or any other word referring to private parts of either sex. I really don't care. But the PC police here are bothering me.

[Eurobabe]

67. Gotta agree with you on that one...

As long as someone is not hurling personal, racist or bigoted insults, WTF is the big deal?

Methinks we have bigger fish to fry in this world than worrying about every word that we use.

Peace out -48

[Quantess]

69. I absolutely agree! I like everyone who has anything offensive to say!

uh, I guess I have to do something in good faith to get the love started

[natrat]

72. some fem attacked me for calling so and so thug a douchebag

my first reaction was what a tight assed old rat---you see i always considered douchebag a non sexist insult--unlike cunt and to a lesser extent dick-i still think douchebag is not offensive in a sexist way but what do i know

[Quantess]

68. I don't think "douchebag" is a sexist term. At all.

Oh, like the usage "he's such a douchebag!" I personally don't have any reason for any Mc.Lubiexyo to be doing anything im

it makes me want to go to bed (actually it does)
Goodnight!

It does worry me just a little bit when you talk about "god bag". Is that like, "the god warrior"?

[BoneDaddy]

70. It really isn't about the word

It is about the OP who wrote the original "douche-bag" thread in the first place and her continued blathering. Couched in most, if not all, of her threads is this pseudo feminism that is filled with anti-masculine ideology that borders on fascist ideology. Take her with a grain of salt, she is on her own personal victimhood crusade.

[Moderator]

76. Locking....

Please do not continue arguments from other threads.