Poll: Victim Mentality

[distantearlywarning]

This poll was inspired by these two threads: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x3140018
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=3138874&mesg_id=3138874

I'm curious to see the numbers - this would be a "dealbreaker" for me with DU if you all endorsed this statement. Anyway, here goes...

I believe that many or most social problems could be cured if people would take responsibility for their own feelings and experiences and "get over" their persistent victim mentality.

[Warren DeMontague]

1. I think a far more accurate statement would be; "Those who don't remember the past

are condemned to repeat it".

We have a lot of problems in this country- but an excess of critical examination of the wrongs and injustices committed in the past is not one of them.

[HappyWeasel]

2. This reminds me of the joke that...

those who cry are abortion are just big babies.

[Warren DeMontague]

3. I don't get it.

Seems to me, the folks most up in arms about abortion aren't worried about babies so much as they are about "Ungodly" fucking. That's why they're trying to outlaw birth control as well.

[porphyrian]

4. I reject the premise of the poll.

I'll not have my opinion used to justify your staying with or leaving DU, especially not on the basis of a single poll. If you're that easily manipulated, perhaps you should go. Or don't, but make that decision for yourself.

As for "victim mentality," while I believe there is something to it, I don't think it can be applied as universally and conclusively as those other posts suggest. This poll only serves to strengthen its apparent "with us or against us" binary, and I'm not buying it.

[uppityperson]

5. While people do need to take responsibiltiy for their feelings TOWARDS their experiences,

they cannot take responsibility for all their experiences as sometimes things are just out of your hands. And, this will not cure most social problems since that is not the cause of many social problems.

[rpgamerd00d]

6. I view "Responsibility" and "Fault" as two different things.

I believe all people are responsible for their own lives.

For example, if you're at a red light, and someone rear-ends you, I think YOU are responsible. YOU chose to drive your car, YOU knew the risks, YOU drove to that particular light.
HOWEVER !!!!
That other person is "at fault" for the accident, and must pay for the repairs, damages, injuries, etc.

Not many people view "Responsibility" in this way, but when you stop and think hard about it, there does not exist ANYONE on the face of the planet that is responsible for you, except you. (applies to adults only, obviously).

[distantearlywarning]

12. This is an extremely disturbing viewpoint.

I've heard it before - I'm a social psychologist, and I've heard the clinical people talk like this.

CHOICE. That's the crux of it right there, I think. If I drive my car to work, I may get rear-ended at the light, and be held personally responsible, because I made the CHOICE to drive my car that day. However, if I choose not to drive to work, I may get fired and be held personally responsible for that, because I made the CHOICE not to drive to work. So either way, I get screwed, and am held personally responsible for it, at least in my own mind, and probably the mind of the neocons, my flaky therapist, and some posters on DU. Tell me, what driving CHOICE should the sensible, intelligent person make in the future given these two potential alternative endings?

That doesn't sound like a very healthy or sane way to think about the world to me. It sounds like a good way to develop a good sense of guilt and learned helplessness. And the driver who shoulders the responsibility for every unforseeable circumstance or injustice in life is taking on a heavy and unnecessary burden.

Now imagine the same driver who gets rear-ended. Instead of "taking responsibility" psychologically for her twist of fate, she decides to demand justice from the person who's REALLY responsible - the driver who hit her. She takes the guy to court and gets enough money to fix her car and pay her medical expenses. Now she feels powerful and good about herself, and the justice she received from the person who is REALLY responsible for this circumstance gives her renewed faith in her country and the world in general. Now that's healthy and productive.

To take this one step further, imagine the bystander on the corner when this accident happens. If he believes the driver should "take responsibility" for being at that corner when a bad driver just happened to come along, he may not be particularly interested in witnessing for her in court. Why bother? The driver should just move on and choose not to feel violated, right? But a bystander who believes in justice will take her side and help her fight for her rights.

Sound familiar? It should. It's one of the major differences between the left and the right. Freepers spend a lot of time justifying their own smugness and inaction by demanding that other people "take responsibility" for themselves and every situation they face in life. Many of the people I've met at DU, on the other hand, recognize that not every situation can be controlled, that having to "move on" from or "get over" injustice is psychologically damaging (sometimes for generations), and that a choice between two bad alternatives isn't really a choice.

[rpgamerd00d]

13. I agree with everything you said.

Except I call that "Fault".

Responsibility is different to me.

[distantearlywarning]

16. I see.

So what should we tell victims who don't understand your semantic difference between "fault" and "responsibility"?

When people say to a Katrina victim, "take responsibility for your choices", will they hear responsiblity or will they hear fault? How about random right-wing dude who hears Dr. Laura on the radio asking single mothers to take responsibility for their choices - will he assume that she just means responsibility, or will he assume she's advocating victim-blaming?

And what does the word responsiblity even mean if you take away an accompanying connotation of fault? I've never heard anyone who advocates the "take responsiblity for your choices" lifestyle ever explain that difference in a way that made sense to me.

[rpgamerd00d]

18. I'll explain.

Say you're the victim of something (doesn't really matter what it is).
Say that this event harms you in some way (financially, physically, emotionally).

OK, so here you are, harmed by an event.
Got it?

1) Who is Responsible for your life ? You.
2) Who is at fault for the harm? The person (or entity) that caused the harm.

Q. What should you do now?
A. You are Responsible for your actions. Make a choice, its all in your hands. Prosecute those at fault? Fine, do that. Let it go? Fine, do that. Anything you want, its your Responsibility as to what happens in your life. No one elses.

That is the difference.

[distantearlywarning]

19. Ok.

After the harm has been caused, it's my responsibility to make a choice to prosecute or not. Or forgive or not. Or whatever other action I choose to take. Ok. I'm totally on board with that. (Although, I do want to ask - does that mean that whining and doing nothing is a valid choice, so long as I admit that my choice is whining and doing nothing?)

But what about the thing happening in the first place? It bothers me a lot that there is still this statement floating out there that my choice to drive my car to the red light in the first place makes me accountable for what happens next. That's what I have a problem with. The person who should be held responsible is the person causing the harm, not the person living their life in a totally reasonable way by just driving their car to work in the morning. It's impossible to not make choices in life, and the best we can do is try to foresee potential bad consequences and account for them (e.g., wearing a seatbelt while you drive). Just because we were forced to make a choice should not make us responsible for things that are truly beyond our control (e.g., a bad enough accident that the seatbelt is useless), and certainly not for things that were caused by someone else (e.g. a inattentive driver).

The problem in society is that other people take "you're responsible for your own life" thing, and interpret it to mean, "I guess you shouldn't have made the choice to drive your car to work this morning, and sorry, we can't help you get car repair money in court from the really rich asshole who rear-ended you with his BMW SUV. Next time choose a career path where you make enough money to fix your car yourself."

Also, I still don't get the distinction between responsible and fault. I am responsible for my own life. Somebody else could also be partially responsible for how my life turns out if he rear-ends me and I end up paralyzed from the neck down. In that case _I_ didn't make myself paralyzed, he did. He was the catalyst, he caused the accident, in some sense he's even responsible for some portion of my negative emotions about it because I wouldn't have had any of those emotions without his actions. It's just simple cause and effect.

[rpgamerd00d]

20. Hmm, not "accountable", "responsible". Hard to explain...

:::: "(Although, I do want to ask - does that mean that whining and doing nothing is a valid choice, so long as I admit that my choice is whining and doing nothing?)"

Yep.

:::: "But what about the thing happening in the first place? It bothers me a lot that there is still this statement floating out there that my choice to drive my car to the red light in the first place makes me accountable for what happens next."

Not accountable, responsible.

People should not think "Ok, I got rear-ended, someone should be responsible for getting this problem resolved." and then proceed to not be proactive and take care of everything that needs to be taken care of. What if the guy fights in court? What if he has no insurance? What if he refuses to pay? You need to figure out what you're gonna do, what your options are, and how to make due in the mean time. Did you save enough money to buy a replacement car? Can you set up a carpool with a co-worker? Can you take public transportation? All of these things are the Responsibility of the individual, and have little to do with "legal recourse, and reparations due to fault".

That's all I'm sayin.

[lumberjack_jeff]

7. "Many"? Yes.

One need look no farther than "the war on Christmas" for a good example.

[SmokingJacket]

8. I don't really know -- can only speak for my own experience.

I don't feel comfortable accusing people of having a "victim" mentality, though certainly I've secretly thought it about people. I know that a positive attitude helps me get through the day, so I make a real effort, but I also know that it was impossible to maintain back when I was depressed.

[TerdlowSmedley]

9. That's the sort of poll that I would never participate in. Way too

simplistic. I don't even know what the hell it means. Who asks this question, anyway, Tony Snow? Rush Limbaugh? Our Fearless Leader? Are you wiff us or agin us?

[IndyOp]

10. Personal responsibility IS necessary. It is NOT sufficient. (n/t)

[rpgamerd00d]

11. Ooo, I like that phrase, I'm gonna steal it. :) -nt

[walldude]

14. While I believe there are people who live the victim mentality,

people like the Christians and the Republicans who live in this fictious victimhood that causes them to start wars, the two threads you cited were about slavery. These are two different issues. As I pointed out in the first thread you listed, the Virgina resolution for a Slavery Apology was not a call to victimhood but a call for closure, a call for the state to denounce what happened and make it understood that it won't be tolerated again. Here's a quote from the bill's sponsor: Donald McEachin, D-Henrico County.

“It is meant to be a resolution that is part of a healing process, a process that still needs to take place even today in 2007,” said one sponsor, Del. A. Donald McEachin, D-Henrico County.
“No one is asking any individual to apologize, because certainly there are no slaveholders alive today and there are no slaves alive today,” said McEachin, whose great-grandfather was born a slave.
“But Virginia is alive and well, and Virginia was built on the backs of slaves, and Virginia’s economy boomed because of slavery, and it is Virginia that ought to apologize,” he said.

Apparently there are people everywhere who equate this with "victim mentality". Did you see the Michael Savage "victim mentality" statement on Media Matters? Check this out:

"But basically, if you're talking about a day like today, Martin Luther King Junior Day, and you're gonna understand what civil rights has become, the con it's become in this country. It's a whole industry; it's a racket. It's a racket that is used to exploit primarily heterosexual, Christian, white males' birthright and steal from them what is their birthright and give it to people who didn't qualify for it."

See according to the freeps..it's white heterosexual Christian males who are the victims here.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

15. I Think Many Could Improve To Differing Degrees; But Cured? That's A Bit Of An Exaggeration IMHO.

[Pithlet]

17. No I don't. I don't even think the statement makes any sense.

How are those social problems eradicated simply because the people suffering from them have a positive attitude. Can a positive attitude help an individual? Sure it can. Is it some magical cureall for society at large? Of course not. For instance, through no fault of my own I lose my medical insurance and then get very sick. I'm bankrupted from all the medical bills. A positive outlook sure may help me as an individual as far as coping with it all, but it sure doesn't change the fact I'm still sick and financially ruined, and it certainly didn't help anyone else in the same boat. It doesn't do anything to actually solve the problem at large. People expressing that viewpoint are just wasting time at best, and propagating a myth that hurts people at worst. Basically, it's right wing bullshit.

[crispini]

21. I think it's irresponsible to conflate larger ills with personal responsibility.

Should a person take responsibility for their own feelings and experiences? Yes. But all that's going to get you is a better attitude while you are still in the same negative situation that society has created.

In the context of the original two threads: I am a child of a solidly middle-class family. My great-grandfather had a good job and a house. I reap the benefits of that TO THIS DAY by dint of my excellent education. Of course, I ALSO took responsibility for my own self by GETTING that education and WORKING at that responsible job, but there's no mistaking the fact that when I wanted to go to school, my family had enough money to send me there and I only had to work part time to pay for extras like books and clothes, not all of my living expenses. And that, to a very great extent, is due to my grandfather. In some respects I get "PLUS PLUS" -- the benefits of my family is a PLUS and the "taking responsibility for myself" is also a PLUS.

On the other hand, the great-grandchild of a slave does not have that first PLUS: a long history of saving and managing money and accumulating a cushion which is there for your children. It does not matter HOW much "taking responsibility" that great-grandchild of a slave does. It doesn't matter how much of a "good attitude" that person has. The fact remains that HER parents do not get the "cushion" which has been handed down from my family.

A good attitude, in other words, is helpful, but it sure doesn't take away the very real economic disadvantages some people have.