I Just Don't Get Hunting

[ruggerson]

I have no desire to take away someone else's guns; I do believe in the Second Amendment and think we have the constitutional right to gun ownership.

But I just don't understand killing innocent animals for sport. When times were different and it was a survival thing, that was a totally different story.

But the folks who think of it as a sport? Shooting and killing innocent birds and elk and deer?

The people who can do that are not people who I can even pretend to understand.

[Mythsaje]

1. I don't consider it a sport...

But, then again, I don't understand the martial arts as a sport either.

Hunting is something you use for survival or to pad your larder. Sport hunting is something I don't get either, frankly. Though, I have to admit, I do understand the taste some people have for game. And at least game animals aren't injected or fed steroids or who knows what other kinds of crap.

[Road Scholar]

102. I think golf sucks, but to each his own I say.

[Mythsaje]

118. I enjoy golf on the computer...

does that count?

LOL

[SammyBlue]

2. Because I like the taste of Deer meat.

And there's only one way to get it.

I like the taste of bluegill and Striped Bass and the only way I can get that is by fishing them out of the ocean.

I don't sport hunt. . .those people piss me off. I use every usable part of what I kill.

The meat goes in the freezer, the entrails go to the dogs. . .the bones to fertilizer for my trees, the head is mounted and the felt is used as a throw rug.

[phylny]

51. Depending upon where you live, you don't have to hunt deer

to eat venison:

http://www.koshervenison.com/

But I have no problem with people who hunt to eat. I just don't get the attraction, but whatever floats your boat.

[SammyBlue]

88. Let me think about this: 52 pounds of deer for $9.00 per pound

Plus NY sales tax, plus shipping and handling.

Hmmmmmmm. . .$600 for venison to be shipped.

Here in Arizona. . .all I need is a tank of gas, 2 bullets, a hotel room in Flagstaff and a license that costs between $25 and $44 dollars.

Hmmm. . .$600 versus, at most, $250 for what I just said. Hmmmmm. . .I wonder what is more economically feasible for me. Hmmmmm. . .oh yeah, hunting for the venison I will eat.

Cheney sport hunts, which is disgusting. I hunt for meat. Don't belittle hunters! Some of us hunt because we use every usable piece of the kill!

BTW, Goshen, NY is near where I used to live. The only way to get deer there is to either factory farm it or hunt it. Orange County NY is part of hunting country. . .but better hunting is one county northwest in Sullivan, where I was from!

[phylny]

94. Hmm...I was rebutting the statement that the "only" way to eat

venison was to hunt it and kill it.

I wasn't belittling hunting, as you know since you read my post. I don't have a problem with other people hunting. I don't get it, wouldn't do it, but to each his or her own.

[upi402]

3. me either OP, but I've learned to love things that I never thougt I would

[Yupster]

52. Same here

I just don't get the pleasure in hurting or killing animals.

I know I'd probably hunt if I was starving too, but to just to go to an animal's habitat who's minding his own business, blow him away and then go back home satisfied, I just don't get it.

[upi402]

61. yep

arm deer and now we have a sport!

[SammyWinstonJack]

71. Good idea! A fighting chance. I don't get hunting either. I have a

hard time squishing a bug.

[Yupster]

156. Support the Right

To Arm Bears

[flvegan]

4. Well, for starters

it's not a sport. "Hunting" for survival, is hunting. "Hunting" for pleasure or, *guffaw*, "sport" isn't hunting. It's simply shooting and killing, slaughtering an innocent lessly armed.

I can understand and almost appreciate the person that kills an animal, uses every single part for food or whatnot, and justifying same as not contributing to the factory farming of other animals. I can't support it, but I get it.

You're not "getting" this whole "hunting" thing...you've evolved.

It's February, so I hope any flames keep me warm.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

10. The look on the faces of some of those (sport hunters) on the

I don't know (sport hunting channel?) is enough to scare me silly. It's like they have rabies or something.... beaming on the outside... and possibly feeling bad for what they just did on the inside. Proving something to themselves, or perhaps a peer, a father, I don't know. It creeps me out.

[flvegan]

12. I see absolutely no difference

in the killing of an animal for a reason based in desire. Those that kill puppies/kittens via drowning because they don't want to take care of/deal with them are of little difference of those that kill a buck, in sport, to put antlers on a wall to show how (not) manly they are.

[Marr]

64. "Evolved"?

Come on now- that's silly. You may have some personal aversion to hunting, or eating meat, but it doesn't make you any more "evolved". It makes you a vegan. That's not inherently better than other dietary choice.

[Hosnon]

83. I agree...the idea that our species has evolved in about 5000 years, which

is a liberal estimate since most of us were still hunting 500 years ago, is probably not scientifically sound.

[LiberalUprising]

5. I asked a a hunter aquaintance of mine

Why he did it, his reply was "so I don't kill people" and talked endlessly about the rush of killing.

People are screwed up

[bliss_eternal]

9. Whoa--

that response would have blown me away. :wow:

[buddysmellgood]

13. This is exactly why we need to control guns. Your aquaintance shouldn't

drive either, and sharp objects should be kept a safe distance away. I would also recommend keeping your hands and feet away from his mouth.

[EstimatedProphet]

30. Wonderful guy

That's not why I do it

[sandnsea]

31. Never heard that in 40 years,

Not even among some of the most right wing drunken bastards you can imagine. People hunt because its their tradition, because humans are hunter/gatherers, because we are part of the food chain and taking food is part of what we as humans do, because its a riot to manhood or adulthood, all those things.

But not because it's a rush. Either you're making that up or somebody made that up for pure shock value.

[LiberalUprising]

43. Could be he was just making it up

but it could also be he was being honest, or could be your reasons are just made up B S rationalizations to cover the real reasons for killing animals, whatever makes ya feel better though.

I'm pretty sure there are lots of things you haven't heard of in 40 years.

Don't many serial killers say that killing is a rush?

[sandnsea]

48. Hunters = serial killers

Right. I'd say that about clears up your agenda.

[LiberalUprising]

49. Your words not mine

But thanks for twisting them for me

Now get on back to your kerry worshiping threads, I hear they are needing a live sacrifice.

[Behind the Aegis]

62. Are you serious?!?!

Boy...talk about backing away slowly! Yikes!

[NMMNG]

129. He sounds like a sociopath

Getting a thrill out of killing animals is one of the characteristics of the Sociopath, aka, Antisocial Personality Disorder. :scared:

[Vektor]

148. I believe it.

In fact, it makes perfect sense that a sick asshole would say something like that.

Maybe this waste of oxygen will have a karmic "hunting accident."

:evilgrin:

Hopefully a "When Animals Attack" type situation will ensue. That would be sweet justice.

[MercutioATC]

6. "Sport" is when both sides know they're playing.

I have absolutely no problem with responsible hunting and/or gun ownership, I just don't classify hunting as "sport".

[RebelOne]

66. Yep, it can't be called a sport because the other side

doesn't know there is a game going on.

[zanne]

140. Well put.

I've always known that hunting wasn't fair, but you just pointed out why.

[bliss_eternal]

I don't either.

I understand there are some that must do so--hunt their food to live. I don't know that the numbers of such people are many, but I understand on that level--doing something for survival.

Ted Nugent, Dick Cheney and others...don't get it. Though Ted does claim to hunt for food, more so than as sport--he doesn't NEED to, though.

[seabeyond]

7. i dont either, but respectfully i see my husband and my oldest

son see it totally different than i. i see the good for both of them, and i support them. they clean and cook it, i dont want anything to do with it and have a hard time eating it, being game..... but i certainly respect what i see my boys get from it and i have heard the stories my husband has told, about the bond and only real time he had with his father on hunting trips

i dont have to get it

i dont have to judge it

i will just allow it to be a guy thing, for the most part, except the handful of girls that like to do it, and the handful of men that dont like it

[rodeodance]

19. for our family it is a gal thing. My aunts taught me. Was fun bring the

nieces out teaching them how to track and will do so again next year.

[seabeyond]

45. i had to remember to clarify, cause my mom did with her uncle

her parents were a mess. and again, it was very good memory for her spending the time with this man that she really respected and taught her to hunt, was good to her, and spent the time with her.

[Yupster]

54. That's what I hear mostly

It's a father son thing. Good to spend time outdoors together in nature.

I can understand that, but geeze, bring a camera, not a gun.

[PassingFair]

59. "and the handful of men that don't like it"

I truly believe that in our society, it is only a handful of men who DO enjoy it.

The VAST majority of my male relatives, friends and acquaintances DO NOT hunt.

[Carni]

79. My father was a hunter for years

Oddly enough the only thing he ever appeared to bag was a hangover!

How do you hunt for that long, yet never shoot anything? LOL

[Arugula Latte]

82. Mine either. Not one male in my family hunts.

I don't care if the pro-hunters think I'm judgmental, I AM judgmental. I think hunting for anything other than eating is fucked up, and so does the rest of my family.

Frankly, I think it's pathetic if causing untold pain and suffering and death is the only way males can bond together.

[StellaBlue]

134. Maybe because I am a Texan...

but NONE of my male relatives DON'T hunt.

This reminds me of why I don't want to get married.

[badgerpup]

8. yup...

Venison (deer meat) is not only better FOR you than beef, it has a helluva lot more flavor. Makes killer chili and spaghetti sauce. Rabbit's good too...and if you are on a fixed income, those packages in the freezer sure come in handy in the wintertime...

[driver8]

42. Absolutely right, badgerpup. I grew up in an area of upstate NY

that is not what you would call one of the wealthier areas of the state. A lot of the people depended on the deer they shot during hunting season to feed their families.

I do not hunt, but I do understand why some people do it.

One other thing, a couple of years ago the winter in upstate NY was very, very mild. There was a lot of food available for the deer and the population exploded. Once the deer population got so big, you could hardly drive down any road without seeing deer that had been hit by cars.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

76. oohhhhhhh Venison Chili!!!!

It's been sooooo long!

/insert Homer drooling smilie here/

[buddysmellgood]

11. Until the new court says otherwise, the second ammendment does not give

individuals the right to own guns. Doesn't say we can't have them either. As for innocent animals, are there guilty animals? If god didn't want us to eat animals, she wouldn't have made them out of meat.

[flvegan]

16. Your last sentence about "god" (sic) was funny

10 years ago when I first hear it. They aren't made of meat, but flesh, which you, poster, have to cook to turn into meat to, in turn, eat.

Pathetic. I think I saw this on a sticker on the bumper of a...nevermind. Not worth it.

[buddysmellgood]

28. No, cooking is not a requirement. Your logic is flawed.

[flvegan]

38. So, you don't cook your meat?

At all, ever?

Flawed logic? Have at it.

[buddysmellgood]

47. It's not debatable. You posted:

"...10 years ago when I first hear (sic) it. They aren't made of meat, but flesh, which you, poster, have to cook to turn into meat to, in turn, eat."

Cooking is not part of what defines meat. Sorry.

[mzteris]

106. No - cooking isn't -

eating is.

To Jeffrey Dahmer - you're meat.

[rodeodance]

17. I only eat game meat--I think the animals have a chance that way-as

are not grown in a cage or herd just to be herded to a stockyard. Grew up on a small dairy farm where meat was scare unless you went out to get it or fished.

Turtle stew was on the table at least once a week.

[toddaa]

18. That assumes there's a god

Evolution, on the other hand, doesn't judge based on innocent v. guilty. It's called the food chain. On the other hand, people who eat meat wrapped in cellophane have no argument.

[1620rock]

21. Anyone who experiences joy....

...or pleasure from the act of killing an inoffensive animal is sick. Yes there are people who work in slaughter houses....but, the difference is if the guy in the slaughter house gets his cookies from the killing he needs to check into a psychiatric hospital. Go vegetarian, live long, live well. :-)

[darkmaestro019]

22. hmmm...

then why are people made out of meat?


(ponder)

[Lorien]

36. .

:puke:

[buddysmellgood]

37. I appreciated that. :) Best response so far.

[Lorien]

44. I wonder how you taste

after all, you are nothing but meat.

[tkmorris]

55. People are made of meat as well

What was your point again?

[Vektor]

153. People are made of meat too!

Maybe she intended for cannibalism as well?

:-)

[Poiuyt]

14. The way Cheney hunts is hardly sport

It's more like live skeet shooting. It's just slaughter

[rodeodance]

26. he gives hunting a bad name (letting birds out of a cage).

[H2O Man]

15. I think hunting

is fine when done for the correct reasons. Many people eat meat, and there is something about either raising your own/hunting that I think keeps one in closer touch with the "real world" than buying packaged meat in a grocery store. I am also aware of what happens when, for example, there are too many deer. At the same time, I find hunting for "sport" odd.

[rodeodance]

24. the 'commercialization' of hunting by weekend warriors has giving

hunting a bad name. I have seen this happen over the last 20 years. most do it for 'sport'--

[H2O Man]

35. I live in rural

upstate New York. There is a growing tension when every year "city" folks come up to go hunting. This has increased over the past two decades, as old multi-generation family farms have gone out of business, and much of the land was sold through "developers" to people from the NYC/LI/NJ area. A larger percentage of these fellows than "locals" invest heavily in all types of totally unnecessary gear, often hunt in large intoxicated groups, show little regard for property rights, and often have what are considered aggressive mannerisms in our laid-back region. I pride myself in being able to identify any and all noises in the deep forests, though they make it easy, because there is nothing that makes as much noise as a hunter driving a 3 or 4 wheeler into the forest in search of deer.

Of course, we produce plenty of rather obnoxious and often intoxicated hunters locally. Still, the majority of people I run into, either "locals" or "city folk," are decent people who hunt for the right reasons.

A couple of my neighbors harvest about 10-15 deer per year. They give large amounts of it to the growing elderly population around here. I haven't hunted in over 20 years myself, and actually identify closer with the deer that browse under my apple trees than I do with most people.

[ruggerson]

25. What is interesting to me

is how a lot of conservative Christian types have a very strong belief that animals do not have "souls."

I wonder if that somehow, in their bizarre spiritual code, grants them moral license to kill or maim them rather indiscriminately.

I could no more kill a deer than I could kill the dog lying at my feet staring up at me.

[H2O Man]

40. Well I guess

that would indicate their being unfamiliar with Ecclesiates 3:18-21.

[crowcalling]

119. I think that is interesting too!

And then I try to look for their souls when they say that.. and I think they must have misplaced it somewhere. I mean you try digging around to look for that spark yah know, and you can't find it. But look in an animals eyes.. And voila! There it is!

[H2O Man]

132. I always liked this:

"I said in my heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and they might see that they themselves are beasts. For that which befalls the sons of men befalls beasts; even one thing befalls them: as one dies, so dies the other; yea, as one breath they are, so that a man has no preeminence above a beast, for all is vanity. All go unto one place: they are all dust, and all turn to dust again. Who knows that the spirit of man goes upward, and that the spirit of the beasts downward to the earth?"
-- Ecclesiates 3: 18-21

[stepnw1f]

27. What He Said...

Killing is serious.... not a sport, unless you have a few screws loose in my book. From a ceremonial perspective, I can understand, but not as a sport. Play video games...

[Bzzzz]

67. I agree with you...

a few years back where I live in Indiana, the deer population was so bad in a State Park that they were starving. A hunt was allowed to thin the population. I think this was more humane than letting them starve to death. I have a brother-in-law who loves to hunt and I once asked my hubby why he didn't hunt with him...he stated that once you've hunted man, I would understand. He's a Vietnam Vet...summed it up for me.

[Spider Jerusalem]

20. Well, any lack of understanding on your part aside...

it serves a necessary function of preventing overpopulation of certain species in areas where natural predators have been hunted to extinction. Without wolves, coyotes, foxes, et cetera to keep the population of herbivorous species like deer and so on down, they overbreed, die of starvation, become agricultural pests...so hunting serves a necessary ecological function.

The 'sport' aspect of it isn't something I get, either, but I'm not going to condemn those who hunt for those reasons; besides which, most of the hunters I've known have hunted for meat, not trophies. And I don't see how you can make your argument if you happen to eat meat, anyway...is it somehow better to breed a steer expressly for slaughter, keep it penned its whole life, then kill it with a bolt to the head than it is to shoot a deer or an elk in the wild? I don't see any difference.

[OnionPatch]

104. I think it's actually *more* cruel

to keep an animal penned up in the horribly crowded and disgusting conditions in factory farms. Some animals hardly have room to walk or turn around in the places where most of us obtain our meat. Chickens beaks are cut off at chicken "farms" so they won't peck each other to death, which is something they mainly do in stressed and crowded conditions. They are injected with hormones and antibiotics regularly.

You're right that if you eat meat, yet condemn those who hunt for cruelty, you're not thinking this through all the way. At least a hunted animal has had a chance to live a natural and normal animal life.

[AtomicKitten]

23. Calling it a sport is disgusting.

My father used to hunt when I was a kid. I remember waking up and seeing dead deer on the front lawn in the frost. To his credit, he did have them butchered and we ate them.

Man is encroaching on the last vestiges of the wild in this country, and hunting these creatures is gratuitous disregard for their wellbeing and place in our world.

And don't get me started on canned hunts.

[tsuki]

29. We eat game and fish, not beef. n/t

[GregD]

32. Dove McNuggets

I went on my first dove hunt last year.

We went to bed around 10pm and arose at 2am. With everything packed in the trucks and coffee cups in hand, we drove north an hour. After hiking about 30 minutes in the moonlight, we spent the next few hours waiting for sunrise.

As the light appeared, we sheltered quietly behing bushes. Eventually doves began to make an appearance and occasionally someone would break the silence of the early morning with a shotgun round. By 2pm everyone that was going to nail a few dove had done so, and we were ready to return to my buddy's home.

Now you have to realize that doves are about the size of a cockatiel. They are by no means large birds. And the only part of these creatures that is eaten is the breast. So you rip the feathers off and carve out this little dove breast that is about the size of a matchbook. The grand meal is then prepared according to the recipe of choice.

So there ya are... We got about 3 hours sleep before we headed up the road and spent the next 10-12 hours waiting for these pretty little birds to fly past us, only to blast the living shit out of them if you could possibly hit something that small and that fast. At home, assuming anyone did in fact hit some, you have before you a handful of dove McNuggets that tasted to me like little chunks of liver. A realistic snack of these things requires having taken a limit of 10...

Was it worth it? Not to me. I'll not do it again. But I thought I'd give you a first-hand taste of my first (and last) dove hunt. I'd rather get some sleep and prepare a proper meal when the mood strikes me, and that meal does not need to include dove chunks.

[EstimatedProphet]

33. The idea of hunting as 'sport' comes from royalty

Where they would hunt for amusement. The average hunter in the US doesn't do that, although they may enjoy what they are doing. No, they do it to provide food for themselves and family. It is allowed because there really is no effective way to manage large game animal populations when predators have been removed from the system.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

34. I've never understood it either

I don't really care about other people doing it but I don't think I could ever pick up a gun and kill a defenseless animal (not unless he was comin' right for me!). Hell, I feel guilty just killing spiders around the house (which I absolutely DETEST). Fortunately, for the most part we often just let our cats (who seem to have an affinity for catching and killing bugs in our household) do the dirty work for us ;-) But seriously, I just don't understand how people can get so worked up over killing something. I've heard people like Ted Nugent talk about it like it is almost a "sacred" experience but I simply can't conceive of it as such. However, like I said, who am I to say that somebody can't do it if they want to as long as they are being responsible.

[meisje]

39. Oy! Here goes a whole week of these retarded posts

[Lorien]

41. It don't understand it either. I think that much of it

comes from a feeling of empowerment-the taking of a life is the ultimate "control". I even heard one hunter on NPR liken killing a deer to the first time he had sex-but he said that watching the deer die gave him "more of a rush" than sex ever did. :puke:

Ever since I heard that interview I've avoided every person who has ever told me that they enjoy hunting (and yes, I am a vegetarian who wears synthetic shoes).

[kineneb]

46. grandpa hunted for food, not for sport

My grandparents survived the Depression by supplementing their diet with game animals and fish, and Papa taught me how to fish. He hunted clear into his 80's; and anything he bagged went home for food. I never got the "sport" aspect of hunting or fishing(catch and release fishing-huh?). I guess that is for rich people who don't need to work to eat.

As to deer, believe me, if Bambi started eating my roses, I think part of Bambi would look mighty good as a roast on my table. Deer are destructive little buggers, especially in areas where their natural enemies are gone. Elk sounds a bit intimidating- I don't have room for that much meat in my freezer. And fishing is for food; you catch it, you clean it, you eat it. Just sitting around in a boat and getting sunburnt for no purpose is not my idea of fun. I have been thinking of getting a fishing licence again, because there are trout in the lakes here, and fresh-caught trout is wonderful.

[Pavulon]

50. Generally a rural thing

If you grew up on a farm or have a strong family tradition of hunting, you will probably be brought up doing it. Bird hunts are generally social events around harvest time.

If you live on the upper east side probably not going to get this one.

Deer is tasty. There are more people killed in Wake county by deer than ever before. Because there are more deer. So hunting controls the population. Doves are great marinated in red wine wrapped in bacon and grilled.

I assure you that you and I could have a civilized conversation over coffee, wine, beer in bar and get along swimmingly.

"Sport" hunting, or killing a game animal just for the sake of killing it is pretty sorry,

[ruggerson]

60. Yep

I think you're right. Just like if you grew up in the wilds of Michigan you're not going to know how to get a cab at rush hour on 59th and Lex.

[EstimatedProphet]

109. That's a really good comparison

Maybe you're getting hunting after all...

[ruggerson]

113. Can't believe

it took more than a day for someone to react to that.

[proud2BlibKansan]

53. It is strange to me too

but I figure to each his own. I probably do some strange things others don't understand.

[applegrove]

56. All you need to know it that it is a cheap way to get meat. And meat is

a hugely efficient way of eating rich (good for brain). Same as fishing. Getting protein is the tops.

And add to this that deer do not take oil from the middle east to be put around the base of trees or leaves or brush or grass. They are the most efficient way of eating ecologically.

So it is good, cheap, ecologically efficient.

Only problem these days is that some of that meant has dangerous parasites.

Doubt Cheney regularly eats what he shoots.

[mitchum]

57. I don't get it either, but I don't begrudge hunters...

if they follow safe, sane, and legal methods.
Hell, I'm a meat eater, but not a hypocrite

[Lone_Star_Dem]

58. Where I live

People moved in and the natural predators moved out. That left an imbalance in the ecosystem. The poor deers here just go on reproducing until they out number the available food supply. They get painfully thin and even though we try and feed them they are little bigger than large dogs. Every so often they come in and "clear" out the excess. That means they trap them and haul them off to ranches which allow hunting.

Ever since I've lived here I've been torn on this issue.

On the one hand I could never kill one of these creatures that I've fed and taken on as a pet.

On the other I see how hungry they are and know they can't survive w/o relying on supplemental food. That could stop at anytime if the person they rely on were to move or pass away (this is a retirement area).

As I said, I'm torn on this issue.

Now when it comes to say, quail I don't understand it. We have few quail left in the wild and people actually raise them (think incubators and hand raising) to release for hunting. To me if your natural population is almost gone there's NO reason to release ones you've raised just to be killed by thrill seekers. That I don't get.

[XemaSab]

96. The quail population depends on where you live

There are HORDES of quail in California. Valley/Cali Quail, Mountain Quail, Gambel's Quail, Chukar, pheasants, and several species of grouse.

[Jack_DeLeon]

63. I dont care much for hunting either...

but I'm glad the 2nd amendment is not about hunting. Because I like shooting.

I would like to one day go hunting just so I can say I've hunted, and so I can know what to do if it ever becomes necessary for me to do so in the future, but I dont think I would particularily find pleasure in killing an animal, if the meat is cooked right though I'm sure I would find some pleasure in eating it though.

That being said my guns are mostly for killing paper and other targets, of for the chance that I might need them to defend myself.

[benEzra]

72. My sentiments exactly... (n/t)

[Raine]

65. I don't get it either

any of it BUT.... birds!?! :cry:

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

68. Shooting animals, no...

Shooting Republican lawyers, I'll get back to you...

[benEzra]

69. I don't hunt, and have little interest in doing so, but I know a lot

of hunters, and almost everyone I know who is a hunter eats everything they take. Venison is popular down here (NC).

I don't hunt and I'm not sure I'd have the heart to shoot a deer, but I don't see much philosophical difference between hunting a deer and paying a Tyson employee hunt a cow or a chicken for me, so I can pick it up at the grocery store. The deer that is taken by a hunter probably lived a better and more humane life than the cow you had for supper last week.

Humans are omnivores; we have the teeth and the digestive tract to prove it (unlike that of most primates, our GI tract is set up for meat). So I think there's not much of a moral difference between a cougar hunting a deer for food and a human hunting one. Now shooting an animal kept in a pen, just to mount the head on your wall--I'd have a problem with that. But not hunting something that you're going to eat.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

70. Killing defenseless animals is a well known jock strap expander.

Not to mention a "traditional American value".

[NickB79]

150. My cousin would be a bit confused by that

Considering she doesn't need to wear a jock strap....

Let me guess, for women it's a bra expander?

[Bridget Burke]

73. I don't hunt, but I'm not Vegan, either.

I know some hunters & have eaten game they killed, prepared & cooked. From their discussions, I've heard what kind of behavior is frowned upon by "real" hunters. And there is a big deer surplus in Texas.

Again--I have no desire to hunt. But I do eat meat, so I have no room to criticize hunters--the ones who know what they're doing, that is. They drink AFTER the hunt!

[MadHound]

74. The thing is that for many many people in our country,

Hunting isn't for sport, it's still all about putting meat on the table for their families. It would be nice if everybody could afford to buy that hormone pumped, antibiotic drenched, mad cow infrested beef and other meat in the grocery store, but many people can't. And a 60-06 shell is a hell of a lot cheaper than a rump roast.

In addition, there are many many places in this country where deer and geese have become not only a nuisance, but a down right health risk due to the lack of predators. Deer here in the midwest are entirely to numerous, leading to car crashes, tens of thousands of dollars lost in crops, and an epidemic of diseases, including a version of mad cow. Thus the need to thin out the deer population, not only for the good of the human population, but the deer population as well.

Now I do agree with you about people who simply hunt for the trophy and leave the meat. That is criminal in my opinion. But many many people are hunting out of neccessity, for that is the only way they'll put food on the table for the next year.

[noamnety]

87. yep, it's about providing for the families

at least in my neck of the woods.

I don't hunt, but I've fished before when I lived on a boat, I've eaten roadkill (freshly hit by the husband's car), and done a fair amount of gathering - picking wild blueberries, filberts, raspberries, etc. And now that I own some land, I do a ton of gardening. I didn't feel much of a difference between gardening, foraging, fishing or hunting. There's a sense of satisfaction that comes from living off the land with honest food instead of relying on third parties to inject, cage, artifically color and wrap my food in plastic. It's like the difference between baking your own bread and eating wonder bread.

The canned hunt, however, is ridiculous - cruising around in an SUV caravan paying someone to provide farm raised animals for you to shoot is not the same thing at all. That's like trimming the crust off the wonder bread and then bragging that it's homemade. If the animal is farm raised for food (and I have friends that do that, too), then it's your obligation to kill and butcher it in the most humane painless way possible.

[Joe Fields]

75. Hunting Grizzly with a knife is a sport

Catching fish by sonar, setting up duck blinds and waiting for ducks to land on a pond that's fifty feet away, or putting a deer stand in a tree and waiting for hours for a buck to walk on by, I do not consider sport. It is nothing more than stalking.

[LiberalUprising]

77. Hunters also use automatic

feeders around their stands to feed deer until the season opens, no need to wait that way, plus you get a well fed trophy. Not much of a sport either.

[CornField]

78. Hunting isn't just about killing something

Most (but sadly not all) of those who hunt use what they shoot (either eating or donating to charity).

For me, hunting was a bonding experience. My father taught me how to handle a gun and bow just as he did my brothers. I think he actually spent more time on me than on the boys because was the youngest in the family (and dad was retired) and because I was the only girl in our family he taught.

I feel especially blessed that I was able to sit in a deer stand with him, even if I had to spritz myself with animal urine to do so. I'm also very blessed to have been given my father's respect of weapons, respect of nature and respect of all living things. I no longer hunt, but I've no doubt that I could feed my family if it was necessary. I rarely shoot anymore either, but I bet I'm still a fairly good shot. Above all else, I'll never forget the truly special times I spent with my father and brothers. In those moments, I was not the little sister, just one of the group and it was the greatest.

[Nye Bevan]

80. Hey, some of those birds aren't so "innocent".

One time one of them pooped on my head.

[TX-RAT]

81. With all this mentioning of sport hunters, i have to ask.

What is your description of a sport Hunter? Anyone?

[Nordmadr]

91. I would define sport hunters as

folks that hunt specifically fo the thrill or for the trophy. They do not consider the utilitarian survival purpose of the skill.

Olafr

[Odin2005]

84. Many of us hunters are fervent enviromentalists.

Waterfowl hunting organizations are very vocal about protecting wetlands, for example. Hunting gives people who would otherwise not give a damn about the enviroment a stake in protecting it.

[XemaSab]

97. Word.

Most hunters have more of a connection to the land than most big-city members of the Sierra Club do.

[marions ghost]

133. your kind of "protection"

will be obsolete one of these days.

How about the fact that hunters don't allow others to enjoy the environment. You can't go near it where I live--the "hunters" control it.

[Odin2005]

143. If people weren't hunting there...

...most people would wave no reservations about plowing it over or builidng McMansions there, so you still wouldn't be able to enjoy it. If you try to get people to stop distroying wilderness on moral or metaphysical grounds you will lose. Too many enviromentalists are too idealistic, which just turns other people off and creates totally unneccessary "lumberjacks vs. enviromentalists" brawls.

[marions ghost]

144. you might as well

put Mc Mansions there as nobody I know can enjoy the environment anyway with all the gun nuts out "hunting." (Mostly these are just shooters, not hunters who actually need the food and eat their prey). Sorry but I don't buy that hunters are protecting anything.

How about let's not get into tired rants against "environmentalists." Let's just be "people" and look at what is really happening out there in the woods and fields and marshes. It is NOT environmental protection. That is just gun luv spin. It is all about displaced feelings of power and control.

[XemaSab]

159. Land that's used for hunting

is still habitat for the plants and critters.

McMansions are habitat for trash birds and weeds.

Why do you believe in protecting the environment only if you're allowed access?

How do you feel about ANWR? :shrug:

[Odin2005]

165. You'd rather have McMansions rather than wilderness...

...just because you hate hunting? please excuse me while I puke.

:puke:

[unblock]

85. innocent?? they all GUILTY!!

many animals that hunters hunt are MURDERERS!

for instance, birds murder worms on a daily basis, using that feeble "oh, i just need to survive excuse"!

:sarcasm:

[Vektor]

86. I don't either.

I could never do it, and I have a really hard time imagining how somebody could shoot an animal. It's beyond my ability to comprehend.

[Silverhair]

103. How? It is easy. Line up the sights, pause breath, squeeze trigger. NT

[Vektor]

145. Easy for

some one with no conscience, and psychopathic tendencies, maybe.

[Silverhair]

149. Are you a vegan?

If not, then hunting is more honest than buying the meat in a store. When I hunt, I have to understand the animal and it's life to be able to successfully hunt it, unless I get lucky. I must participate in it's life. If you are buying meat in a store, or wearing leather, you are paying someone else to do your killing for you and then you claim a moral superiority. But it is the hunter who is morally superior, because the hunter has to share the animal's life and is honest about where his meat comes from.

If you are a vegan, then you are being consistent, and we simply disagree.

[Vektor]

151. If that's the case,

then don't try to bait me and get my goat by implying that "it's easy" just to get a rise.

Your most recent post implies that you hunt carefully and respect the environment and hunt only what you plan to eat. If you DO hunt and also acknowledge that animals are living creatures who feel pain and killing them is in fact a sacrifice, then fine.

However.

If you are honestly going to tell me that you have absolutely no sympathy, remorse, or respect for the life you took to nourish yourself, then, there is no moral superiority that you can claim. So don't even try. If you have no respect for the animal, or the life you are taking, and can kill without a drop of sympathy, then that is straight up cold-blooded killing.

Also, I used to eat meat. I no longer do. Your argument that that is worse because I am "hiring someone else to do my killing" is nonsensical. Anything I bought in the past was already dead, and could not be saved. It would either be bought, or rot in the trash after the grocer discarded it. Nothing I could do at any point would have made a difference in that particular animal's life. Not eating it after the fact would have only succeeded in wasting food. It would not resurrect the animal. If there were no grocery stores, and it were up to me to shoot my own cows, then no, I would not have done it. The only way I am personally responsible for the death of an animal is if I shot it myself. So yeah, if one can claim moral superiority solely based on whether or not they kill animals, then I surely could, hypothetically. However, I never claimed "moral superiority" at all, so that's a bit of an irrelevant red-herring.

Remember, I never said that it was psychopathic to hunt, I said it was psychopathic to be able to kill without feeling or remorse - if it was "easy".

Luckily for me, the taste and smell of meat began to sicken me later on, and I no longer cared to eat it, anyway, so this debate is pretty moot now, anyway.

I am however HIGHLY reluctant to even discuss this with you, as I noticed that out of the multiple posts on this thread you singled me out to take a jab at, and have done this before on other threads.

You didn't take issue with anyone else on this thread who agreed that they "didn't get" hunting. There were many.

[Silverhair]

154. I've responded to you before? Sorry, but I don't remember.

I really don't. I rarely notice the name of the author of the a post when I respond. (Except for the "Guns" forum were the small number of regulars causes me to notice.) I couldn't respond to all the similar posts in this thread, and somehow yours struck me as more self-righteous. Since I don't know what other of your posts I have responded too, I can't speak to why I responded to them. Please be reassured that I am not cyber-stalking you. In fact, I don't stalk any DUer, although certain individuals on certain topics I disagree with so much that it must seem that way. (Mostly in the "Guns" forum.)

As an early teen-ager I was indeed very bloodthirsty, and would shoot anything that moved that was legal to shoot. By my late teens I had abandoned that and would only shoot an animal if it was in one of four catagories: Food (Game Animals), Suffering (Livestock that had to be put down), Pest (Rats, Livestock Predators), or Danger (Back then that included any rattlesnake - on sight. Today I would let a rattler go his way.)

You are not precisely correct regarding the meat in a store. However, the effect of one person on a market involving hundreds of millions is like the effect of one raindrop in a flood. The effect is there, but it can't be measured.

[Vektor]

158. There was

no self-righteousness in my post at all. It's a pretty commonly held belief that anyone who kills for fun, or who sees "ease" in killing isn't quite right in the head.

I think I am absolutely correct about the meat in the store. You see, if I killed a man for a kidney that I needed to survive, I'd be a murderer. If someone else I'd never met killed a man, and his kidneys were there for the taking, and I received one, I'm hardly responsible for any wrongdoing. Should I refuse a kidney because a man had to die, even though I didn't kill him? Probably not. Should his kidneys go to waste? Definitely not. Same with the animal. Would I kill one for a burger? No. If someone else killed one and that burger ended up in a restaurant, should I let it go to waste?

Well, now I would, but back in my "burger days" there was nothing I could do to save that cow.

Regardless, I no longer eat the stuff. I doubt any less cows are dying, but I'm finding I like the soy stuff better anyway.

[Nordmadr]

89. I don't enjoy killing the animal. I like the meat and I do it for

the skill should the "times be different" again. There is a whole world full of people that no longer know how to do for themselves. What would these people do if they could no longer go to the grocery store? Starve, that is what they would do. You can't eat money.

Additionally, this is exactly why I do not fish. I don't like the taste of fish, don't eat fish, so I don't go fishing.


Olafr

[Yollam]

90. It's a perversion.

No other way to look at it. A sick way to get your kicks. If I was lost in the woods and hungry, I'd be the first to kill, skin and boil a rabbit for dinner. But for FUN? Hell no.

I can appreciate the fun of shooting - at targets, skeet, whatever. But not a living thing.

That being said, a lot of animals are overpopulated and would starve if it weren't for controlled hunts, so these folk do serve a purpose. Not everything in nature is pleasant, obviously the same goes for humanity. And at least they're not taking potshots at people. (Except for Cheney)

[jdadd]

92. Sounds like my freeper brother in law

My brother in law considers himself the mighty hunter, every year he travels to Montana to hunt Buffalo on some Indian reservation. From what he tells me he pays
A large sum of money to be hauled out to the herd so he can kill a marked buffalo.
The tribe marks the ones that can be killed with paint balls. To me this sounds about as sporting as shooting Angus down on the farm. He even pays the Indians to skin and freeze the meat for shipment home. Picture this great white hunter weighs over 400 pounds and has a hard time walking from the living room to the bathroom, He pictures himself as some king of rugged survivalist.

[TX-RAT]

95. Reservations make good money on these hunts.

With the price of these hunts going for 3000 to 5000 dollars apiece,hunters pays for food and lodging, processing and transportation back home. The reservation makes much needed income.Their making allot more money than raising cows.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

93. When the animals can fire back...

with their own rifles and have a shot at equal shot at killing the hunters, then I will consider it a sport.

Until then, it's just bloodlust.

[XemaSab]

98. I'm pro hunting, even though I'm vegetarian

It's a lot more honest than buying meat from the store.

Most hunters have a great stake in protecting the environment and open space. They're our allies in the fight against sprawl and ecosystem collapse.

Also, animals in the wild don't die happy, peaceful deaths. People say hunting is barbaric, but a bullet from a gun is a fast death. Last year I saw a coyote kill a fawn, and it was GRUESOME. It took HOURS and it was a VERY nasty death.

[slestak]

99. I am an elk hunter

I grew up in a family that did not hunt. I married into a family that does.

Two years ago my father-in-law invited me to go elk hunting with him. I had never been before, and didn't really see much appeal in it, but I knew it was his way of reaching out to me, trying to find some common ground, so I accepted.

He bought me a bow, as he no longer hunts with a rifle. I set up a target in the backyard and started practicing. It took a while to build up those muscles to draw that bow (55# recurve), but soon I could do it, and I got pretty good with my accuracy, too.

But still, I was apprehensive. Getting up at 4:00 am to go sit on a rock in the freezing cold for hours still didn't seem appealing to me. But I was still willing.

Opening day arrived, and we piled in the truck and bounced up the mountain in the dark before dawn. We saw our first wildlife that morning -- a black bear cub dash across the trail about 40 yards in front of us. I grinned. Bears are my favorite animal, and I had never seen one in the wild before.

Once we got up on the mountain, we spilled out of the truck, and set out. We followed tracks and sign. We cow-called and bugled. We set up and waited. The mountain was very quiet and peaceful -- a wonderful place to witness a sunrise, despite the frigid weather. The aspen were starting to turn, and the breeze made the leaves rattle. Then, we saw elk.

Three cows and a calf were down in a large clearing, about 70 yards ahead. If we had rifles, it would have ended right there, but with bows, you need to get close. We crept our way around the edge of the clearing, but they spooked and fled when we were about 30-40 yards away.

I was hooked.

You see, it's not about bloodshed. That's not the thrill. The thrill is in the pursuit. It's about close encounters with wildlife. Not only that, but there is camaraderie with your friends/family. Perhaps more importantly, it allows people to connect to each other in a certain way. You can really learn alot about someone by hunting with them.

Hunting is a sport. It takes skill and perserverance to cleanly take game. It takes physical ability to hike all over a mountain at 9,000+ feet.

Hunters are environmentalists. Though a lot of them might find that label offensive, they are indeed conservationists, and care about preserving natural habitats. Also, your state employs wildlife biologists, who closely monitor game populations, and annually issue permits based on their research.

Also, there are many hunting organizations, such as the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation, that work towards preserving habitat, education, and co-existance issues.

However, there are hunters who give the sport a bad name. I think it's wrong to set up tree stands over feeders. I think it's wrong not to fully use your kill. I think it's wrong to hunt while intoxicated. I know a guy who has a motion-activated camera pointed at his automatic feeder, to let him know when the deer are coming. That's not hunting, that's gathering.

I would also like to mention that my in-laws are ardent, repug-hating Democrats. Many hunters are, and they shouldn't be alienated from the "big tent". I'm not saying you have to like it, or even accept it, but just be aware that many hunters are good people.

[Nordmadr]

100. Some mildly graphic detail in this post, skip if your squeamish.

Like you, I have only been hunting for a few years. I got my first deer, a spike horn buck, and felt nothing but guilt after having shot the animal. Furthermore, it required a second close range shot to finish the animal off after it had settled down to the ground from its wound. You see, I did not want the animal to suffer, and once you've reached that point, if you are going to be a "man" about it, there really is no other choice. The animal was going to die either way. I looked the animal straight in the eyes and apprehensively pulled the trigger. A close range 12 gauge shotgun slug has quite an impact. As a military man that had fortunately never had to fire a weapon at another human being, this had quite an impact on me. I hope to never forget it. I had a sense of awe at what I had just done. I whispered up a word of thanks to whatever spirit/God/entity that was listening for what I had been provided. I cleaned the animal myself (removed the internal organs) but did have to have someone else butcher the deer for me as I lacked the skill at the time to do that efficiently myself.

There was no joy in it. Just a sense of pride in having been able to accomplish something for myself. I find the most enjoyable aspect of hunting simply being in the woods and witnessing nature first hand. I do this as well when not hunting. Watching the sunrise as you wait for game. Observing the patterns of behaviour for animals. I think it puts you more in touch with your food source and your environment. You can learn alot just sitting silently in the woods and observing.

I think it is more humane than the commerical slaughter of animals raised specifically for food in the retail world. Like it or not, we are animals, and this is the way we are "wired" to obtain our subsistence. I think the arguement put up that people that do not hunt are more civilized is just a bunch of horseshit. It just means they are more disconnected from the process. Eyes wide shut if you will. If you eat meat and are critical of hunters that hunt for food and use the various parts of the animal for utilitarian purposes, you are a hypocrite in my mind. You're just letting someone do your dirty work for you while you go about thinking how righteous you are. Please.

Critical vegetarians are at least putting their money where there mouth is, so I can respect their view more, even if I decide that is not the path for me. I would expect them to have the same perspective. They have decided that they prefer not to eat meat, because they prefer to not be responsible for another creatures death. Fair enough.

Unless you live in a bubble though, separate from the modern conveniences of this world, do not delude yourself into thinking you are not at least indirectly responsible for the deaths of thousands of creatures that never did a thing except to be unfortunate enough to live in this time.

If I ever lose that sense of respect for the animal, I will quit hunting that very instant.

Hunting is a skill when done right. There are hunters that give the rest of us a bad name, but that likely applies to virtually any actitvity you can find.

So if you want to think me a murderer as you stop and pick up your Big Mac at the drive-thru, go right ahead, for your opinion means naught to me.

Olafr

[Gregorian]

108. Thanks to elk hunters,

I have a dozen elk on my property where there used to be hundreds. Thanks to people who shoot geese, there are two dozen where there used to be dark clouds of them. Thanks to duck hunters, I have TWO ducks in my pond where there used to be hundreds. Thanks to the loggers, I have ZERO fish in my creeks where they used to team.
And this goes for the other properties I've had. In fact, one property, next to the town of Elk in California, had the Garcia river running through it. They used to supply salmon to San Francisco in the early part of the 1900's. There isn't a fish in the thing, thanks to logging.
To me, logging and hunting go hand in hand. Same mentality. These things were fine when the population was small. But that changed. And now they are no longer acceptible things to do. It's not "me" anymore. It's "us". All 6.5 billion of us.

[XemaSab]

160. A lot of the problem is habitat loss

I've got a book on ducks, geese, and swans from 1942 (Kortright) and in it he talks about the observed decline in waterfowl populations due to loss of habitat.

The Central Valley of California used to be a giant marsh!!! Tulare county was so named for the extensive tule marshes!!! There were waterfowl flocks there that would block out the sun!

Now you're lucky to find a wetland patch in the Central Valley, and you're lucky to find ducks in the existing small wetlands. It's got little to do with hunting, and everything to do with loss of wetlands habitat.

Don't blame the hunters for the decline in waterfowl.

[IronLionZion]

101. Wild game is better for you than hormone-ingested factory farm animals

I don't hunt, but love getting wild game and birds from friends who do. It works out when someone's whole family likes to hunt, but they can't eat all the meat themselves.

Oh yes, and I've seen lots of deer starve to death in the winter because there just isn't enough food. Deer are not even remotely endangered because there are so many of them.

Wild birds are much better than chicken.

It's OK, because I don't "get" lattes. Whatever happened to coffee flavored coffee? :shrug:

[dr.strangelove]

105. I've never hunted, but I get it

For purposes of this post, I am limiting the definition of hunting to using guns to kill animals. Other may consider hunting to be broader or more narrow, but that is the basis for my post. I see two parts to hunting. Using a gun and killing an animal.

I'm not really into guns. I have shot handguns and rifles but never enjoyed doing it.

That said, the idea of hunting makes sense, at least why some people would like it. Shooting a gun is a powerful thing. The energy, explosion and power from the weapon results in a feeling unlike any other I have experienced. I am not partial to this feeling, which is why I don't shoot more often, but I can see how that part of hunting would be enjoyable.

The next part, taking a life. The ultimate taboo is murder. It is the action that we almost uniformly as a species forbid. The idea of taking a life is wrong. Then we carve out an exception to this rule for killing non-humans. I can understand why creating an exception to the ultimate wrong is enticing. Some people will no doubt find it exciting to do something that runs so far against the natural order. I again don't find this interesting, but I can see how someone would.

While some hunt for pleasure, others hunt for reasons. Some believe they are helping a species by thinning the population. Others hunt for food. Me, I do my "hunting" at the supermarket. without a gun or the killing of an animal.

Though I must admit, I "hunt" for "sport" at the supermarket too. Normally I just buy chicken or beef, but when there is a sale on bison or some other exotic meat, I buy it. I certainly don't need to eat meat and I certainly don't need to eat exotic meats, but I do these things because I get pleasure out of the taste of the meat. I don't buy meat for survival, I buy it and eat it for enjoyment.

With all that, I don't have a problem with hunting. I choose not to do it, but I understand why some do hunt.

[OnionPatch]

107. I don't get it in the way

that I don't get the attraction to, say, video games or model airplanes or golfing or football.... It's just not my thing. But I don't condemn hunting and think can I understand a little why some people like it. I think it is actually a more noble way to get your meat than obtaining it from factory farms like we do today. Unless, of course the species is in decline or you "hunt" it in an unethical way or something. I can understand there's a sort of pride in knowing you can take care of yourself and in the skill of using your weapon effectively.

The only thing I don't understand are people who do take joy in killing and the ones who hunt only to seem macho or whatever. I can't admire those types at all. I don't think all hunters are like that, though. My husband and his friends hunt and are all environmentalists! They only hunt abundant animals, like deer. They even say a little prayer/blessing when they make a kill to thank the animal!

[ryan_cats]

110. I'm with you on this.

I'm with you on this and I'm a gun owner as well.

I don't have a problem if people hunt for food and use all of the animal.

I DO have a problem if you shoot for trophy's or shoot for 'sport'. I don't like killing a spider let alone a beautiful animal. I just don't get killing things for sport. You wanna kill stuff? Enlist to go fight in Iraq.

Canned hunts and car hunting are the ultimate poser hunting and should be outlawed.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

111. Man w/ Gun v. Deer isn't really a fair fight.

It's not sport...it's murder. Granted, there are some people who need to hunt. But let's face it: those people are not the majority. Today's people can barely be bothered to microwave some Stouffers. True, if people are going to eat meat, I'd rather they hunt than support factory farms. But it's still the lesser of two evils.

What sport is there when you use scent and camoflauge and calls? Man likes to crow about his higher intelligence. So admitting that, why does the hunter have to resort to all kinds of cheap tricks? I've seen people say that the thrill is in the chase. But the chase ends before the kill so that excuse doesn't fly. Take out the "chase" and you are left with "I hunt for the thrill" and the only thing that can mean is "the thrill of killing".

[happydreams]

112. What about hunting chickenhawks. Could that spark your interest?

I just found out from some savvy folk in the lounge that the season is open all year. :bounce:

[IowaGuy]

114. This thread was apparently inspired by Chickenhawks foibles,

but let's just try and understand something. Cheney is a thrill killer, a shooter. He does not "hunt". He just blasts away at animals that were placed in front of him to shoot at.

Whether you agree or not with "hunting" is one thing, a personal choice, let's not confuse that with what Cheney does - it is not hunting

[Beaverhausen]

115. Hunters should "hunt" each other. It's a win-win

A sport means both opponents are equally armed and prepared.

Hunters hunting hunters is only fair. And it would thin the herd.
Works for me.


What Cheney does is cowardly and ignorant.

[cynatnite]

116. We eat what we hunt...

anything else is not hunting, IMO.

[Paladin]

117. You Know When I Find Hunting Obnoxious?

It's when hunting advocates try to cloak it in some sort of creepy, naturalistic nobility which it's not entitled to---like in this thread, for instance. Jeez, the leading exponent of sport hunting today is Ted Nugent, with Dick Cheney a close runner-up; that pretty much says it all, doesn't it? Go shoot animals if you like, just don't try to cop a superior attitude about it. Hunting licence sales are falling off, and with good reason.....

[slestak]

121. Superior attitude?

Hope that wasn't directed at me. I tried to explain what I enjoy about hunting.

Sorry you're so intolerant.

[Nordmadr]

128. I think it was more directed at me, since I described how it can have

a degree of spirituality in a sense, yet this person prefers to think of it in another way. I had not expected to find such intolerance regarding this on this board either, and when the difference was explained between hunting, and what Cheney was doing, most still seem not to get it. I now know what it is like to be irrationally persecuted. So much for open-mindedness. I put forth what I believed to be a very logical explanation, and it was completely ignored.

How very Freeper of you all.

Flame away.

BTW, while hunting may not be "fair" in the sense that a hunter has a weapon; it is fair in the sense that virtually all game animals have skills, ablities and instincts we do not. The human animal, without its brain, would be minced meat in the wild. That is our benefit. We can't fly, we don't have super vision, hearing, or sense of smell. We don't run as fast, etc. That evens it out a bit if you will. I put on warm clothes when I go out in the winter to hunt, how barbarically unfair of me. People forget, that probably with the exception the last 80 - 100 years this was how virtually everyone obtained their meat supply, or from slaughtering farm raised livestock. The intent when I go hunting is not make it a 50-50 shot that I'll end up dead. Wouldn't be much of a survival skill if I did, nor would it be a very good use of our supposedly superior brains.

I keep telling myself I won't post to this topic again, and then I keep doing it. I am just struck by the intolerence. It caught me completely off guard, and it disappoints me to no end. Oh well.

Olafr

[slestak]

146. Yeah, me too.

I understand that not everyone likes it. What I don't understand is the broad-brush tarring that is happening.

Most hunters are not blood-crazed hillbilly psychopaths. And to lump all hunters in to that category is wrong.

What's most surprising is that this attitude is coming out during DU's quarterly fund-raising drive.

This is my last post in this thread. I promise. :)

[Beausoir]

120. How much does a hunting license, a gun and a box of shells cost?

Serious question. I don't hunt so I don't know.

[TX-RAT]

141. serious answer

In TX a super combo license runs just over 60 bucks

You can pay as much as you want for a gun, but 400 to 500 would probably be average.

Anywhere from 3.50 a box for 12ga field loads, to 25 a box for waterfowl loads.

[hopeisaplace]

122. I totally agree. Hate guns. Hate killing. Hunting is wrong.

that's my opinion til the day I die,
so shoot me :)

[calmblueocean]

167. So you're a fruititarian, right?

Can't eat vegetables without killing them.

[Hippo_Tron]

123. I think it's like playing a first person shooter but for real

You get to dress up in camo and shoot a gun. That's just my guess, never really hunted and don't really care that much about whether others do it or not.

[eridani]

124. It's about having a personal relationship with your food

Real hunting, anyway. The fake kind that lazy rich spoiled sociopaths like Cheney does certainly doesn't qualify. What kind of sick fuck gets off on blowing tame birds away?

If you ate beef, pork or chicken at any meal today, what do you know about how the animal you are eating spent its life? Assuming you aren't blowing away tame birds like Cheney, you know at least know that the duck, quail or pheasant you shoot probably had a normal animal life looking for food, mating, raising young, etc., all while not in a cage.

If you are a vegan, you have some basis for criticizing hunting. All others should just STFU.

[Greyhound]

125. I've never been impressed with hunting, and I'm a "gun nut"

You want to hunt, go out and bring back that deer with only a knife, now that would be impressive. Hiding in a tree stand with a rest while you lure a deer to the kill spot with bait and doe urine is just mindless slaughter. IMO

[DemonGoddess]

126. I will simply say

what many others here already have. Lotta people hunt to SUPPLEMENT their food. For that matter, those of you who are against hunting, have you ever done something on a farm where it required to slaughter an animal? Specifically, an animal raised for food? That's something I don't get. People get all bent out of shape over hunting, and never give a second thought to the fact that in order to eat your steaks, chicken, etc, GEE that animal has to DIE. Same as the deer that is hunted.

I enjoy the tracking actually, love to fish, and have gone hunting on occasion. Usually, was my dad that did the actual kill, while I was learning to track. Nowadays of course, if I were to indulge, either my husband or me would do the kill, most likely him tho.

Now as to hunting birds, I have more fun just working my dog to do that, and just taking a picture. It's something to see a bird dog that is tracking, and then finding and pointing the game.

Now, as to "weekend warrior" types who participate in canned shoots and the like, they are NOT hunters. BLEAH

[Norrin Radd]

127. I'm more of a gatherer.

A shopping basket is my weapon of choice.

[mandyky]

130. Hunting is a rite of passage in rural areas

I don't think I'd care for bird hunting, but elk, deer and other big game provide meat for a few months and these innocent animals need to be thinned out. Deer cause a lot of car damage in upstate NY where I am from. In Arizona they made a highway underpass to give the elk a different way to "cross the road".

Anyway, rural young men are indoctrinated into this hunting culture. Our school used to let guys out on opening day of bow and shotgun seasons (2 different days). It does start with a BB gun, then rabbit and squirrel hunting at 14 and then at 16 deer hunting.

I don't understand why so many at DU are down on hunting. My dad had one deer head stuffed and hanging in our living room since I was a tyke. I can see not understanding stuff like that but equating hunting with murder is not right either.

One thing that does bug me is the sports people who just kill the animals but don't eat them. They could at least donate the birds and animals or give them to someone they know eats them.

[IronLionZion]

131. Be with nature

out there in the cold, early in the morning, with your buddies/brothers/whoever.

Personally, I don't hunt, but I sometimes like to go deer spotting for the same reasons.

[Greylyn58]

135. What this SOB Cheney and his cronies

did in TX wasn't hunting. It is nothing short of a canned hunt.

It's starting to be reported that the ranch where this evil bastard went, hand raises all the quail uses in his so called hunt. This whack-job and his friends rode up to the pen where the birds are kept and got out of their car and waited for someone to release these poor birds so they could get their manly rocks off by blasting animals who had no fear of people.

REAL FREAKING NICE YOU BASTARD DEATH DEALER!!!!!! If you can't walk in the woods and track down wild birds then you need to keep your ass at home.

This makes what this evil freak did even worse in my book. I don't like hunting...especially since with todays weapons it's not very sporting. Not that it ever was sporting, but at least most hunters eat what they shoot(I hope).

So for Crash-Cart to up and shoot a man near him--when he had to know from where the birds would be release makes this whole incident highly suspect in my book.

Damn I hate this evil excuse for a human being.

[slestak]

147. Where has this been reported?

I hadn't heard about this. Just curious.

[Greylyn58]

157. On Countdown with Keith Olbermann

and again on CNN when they showed the video of the woman who reported "the so-called accident"
she says that Cheney and the other men drove up to the pen where the quail were being kept, got out, and that was where the shooting took place.

[slestak]

164. Thanks ...

Didn't know if that was real or rumour mill. As a hunter, I find that appalling.

I quit watching TV "news" about a year ago. KO is one of the good guys, though.

Thanks again.

[Festivito]

136. Ever been hungry?

IF SO:
Ripping vegetables out of the ground is fun.
So is biting fruit.
So is a complex path of planting, pruning and harvesting.
So is a complex path of hunting, attacking and cooking.

[Mr.Green93]

137. No one has to hunt to eat

That is B.S. There are Food Debit Cards and Food Banks, the EETC and other programs and agencies available to those in need.

[DemonGoddess]

138. and to that I have to say to you that yes there are

programs for those in need, but they don't give enough to keep you from going hungry towards the end of the month.

[TX-RAT]

139. I choose to eat what i hunt.

I choose not to rely on someones to feed me or my family.

[mandyky]

155. You can only get food stamps if you have less than $2000 in assets

so homeowners and carowners are oout. So are folks with any stocks or bonds.

Yeah there are food banks but they do not provide meat, just pasta and canned goods.

Try talking to some people before you make claims...

[XemaSab]

161. But you have to kill to eat

Whether the blood's on your hands or the hands of a hired killer.

[Township75]

142. I once shared your opinion on hunting...

as far as calling it "sport", that term has been around for so long I that maybe it referred back to a time before the NBA, NFL, and multi million dollar contracts for what we now know as "sport." Im not sure.

I can tell you that there is a sense of sport in trying to track an animal with superiour senses to my own, and beating it at that.

When I was growing up I thought, much like I have read here, that it was cruel to kill an innocent animal...then I would go home and have some burgers or chicken. If you eat meat, be assured that you are doing something to animals that is cruel. Growning up in your own waste, and being feed constantly so you bulk up nicely and then to be slaughtered isn't much of a life.

Hunting can give you the real free range organic meat. The animal likely lived a better life in the woods too than on a farm...and it may even live it's entire life with out being killed by a human...that likely won't be the case on the farm.

I changed my views about hunting a few years ago, and now participate in it. I would rather get my meat from the woods than the market.

And if you eat meat from the market or when dining out, you contribute more to cruelity to animals than hunting does.

[Silverhair]

152. Basically, evolution has given us "hunting hunger".

Even a well fed cat will still go hunting. Human evolved as hunter-gatherers over millions of years, and some of us have been "civilized" for only about 5,000 years. Many of us were still hunter-gatherers in the 19th century. And in a few isolated places, some still are. Those humans, mostly men, who enjoyed hunting hunted more, and with more success and so their offspring had better survival rates. Give evolution a few millions years to work with that, and many modern men have a primal urge to hunt. Many of our other business behaviors are organized much the same way, and even use much the same language as a hunt. The hunting hunger his being fed a substitute hunt. But nothing satisfies that hunger like the real thing.

I am talking about REAL hunting. Sitting in a deer stand above a baited feeder - might as well get a job in a slaughterhouse.

When I hunt, my senses come to a level of alertness that never reached at a computer terminal. On must be aware of everything, including your own body. You must know where you are stepping so you can be quiet. You must know the habits of the specific game you are after. Nor can this be simulated by taking a walk in the woods. That is like playing poker with no money.

And in a way that I can't really explain, at the moment that I take an animal, for a split second, I become one with that animal. And old evolution program giving me an emotional payoff, I guess.

I grew up on a ranch so I have never had a city person's view of animals.

[Skittles]

162. it makes me sick

the very idea that people ENTERTAIN themselves by killing things - and I don't give a flying F*** what they do with the carcasses - it just makes me sick. I have never and WOULD never ever date a hunter.

[Hekate]

163. If a hunter eats what s/he kills, okay by me, but piling up dead critters

If a hunter eats what s/he kills, that's okay by me, but piling up dead critters as ol' Dead-Eye Dick apparently does is just sadistically creepy.

I look at it this way: I buy my protein presented on styro trays wrapped in plastic. Someone had to look that creature in the eye and kill it, someone had to skin it, etc. -- just because it was not me, doesn't take away from that reality. I don't seem to be evolved enough to be a vegetarian, but there it is.

So while hunting is not something I would do myself, I have reasoned that if some folks need to or want to, who am I to say they should not? (Game laws exist to control the process, which is a good thing, because humans have been known to hunt species to extinction, which is beyond stupid.)

My family ate a rather tough elk all one winter courtesy of one of my father's friends. As my parents were hard up for cash I'm sure my mother looked on it as valuable protein. During the Great Depression my mother's older brothers brought home jackrabbit for the family table.

So in my firm opinion -- and all of this is opinion -- if you kill it, you should eat it, or make sure it ends up on someone's plate. To do otherwise strikes me as wasteful, at the very least.

Hekate

[calmblueocean]

166. I don't get people who pick on hunting and not...

...the rest of the entire country that pays someone else to do their dirty work to eat meat. People who disdain hunting while eating a cheeseburger are hypocrites of the highest order, IMHO.