My problems with the Cheney story

[EstimatedProphet]

The last couple days I have watched a number of DUers taking apart the story, and I couldn't figure out some of the questions that were being asked. It finally occurred to me (it's been a very rough couple days here, so I'm a bit slow) that the problem is several people here don't know what bird hunting is like. Maybe I can help fill in the gaps.

One of the questions I had was why it is Whittington didn't let people know where he was. One of the responses I got was that he was trying to sneak up on the quail, so announcing out loud would scare them away. It may be that the mouthpieces are trying to imply this with some of the things they are saying, so that might be where they are getting the idea. However, that's not how bird hunting, especially quail hunting, works. You don't sneak up on them-you try and get them to flush so that they fly away and you have a shot. What this means is that there is no reason why Whittington should have not announced his position.

Now, this is where it gets really interesting: this kind of hunting is done in open fields usually. There may have been some crops, but from the video I've seen of the interviews there wasn't. So, we have someone approaching the hunting party in an open field from behind in this case. This means a very important fact is being left out-THE FIELD OF VISION ISN'T OBSCURED. Why wouldn't Whittington announce himself? Because he was clearly visible! Why should he?

Now, the cover story is saying that the shooting took place at 30 yards. The fact that he was wearing a hunting jacket and vest means that it was MUCH closer. 28 gauge 7 1/2 shot doesn't penetrate heavy clothing at that distance in such an amount that it goes through multiple layers of thick clothing, skin, muscle, and end up in the chest cavity causing 3 days in ICU. Not happenning that way, no way. I'd believe 10 yards, not 30. And if someone is standing in an open field 10 yards away, you are going to see him.

My conclusion: Cheney saw this guy, but being the trigger-happy novice he-man type cityboy hunter, he shot anyway.

[Wickerman]

1. 10 yards it is

Several other analysis have estimated same. Good review, EP! :hi:

[EstimatedProphet]

2. dupe

Dupe

[EstimatedProphet]

3. That's what gets me, and that's why I think this is being covered up

the wounds indicate 10 yards or less, and at that distance there is no excuse other than blindness to not see someone!

In other words, THIS DOESN'T QUALIFY AS A HUNTING ACCIDENT!

[tulsakatz]

7. even if it's not a cover up.........

...the way it's being handled makes it look like a cover up!!

EVERYONE in DC has been saying this was the worst way to handle this. When something like this happens, the best thing to do is to voluntarily come out and tell the truth about what happened. The fact that they didn't do this makes it look they ARE trying to cover something up!

[Karenina]

35. Cheney's EARS were covered up!

Maybe someone can post a picture of the HEADSET he wears while hunting.

[tulsakatz]

4. I'm having a problem with the distance too.........

....and bear in mind, I'm not a hunter but quite frankly, I don't see how there was that much damage. How could a pellet become lodged in an inner organ like the heart if the guy was wearing hunting gear at 30 yds away!!

Clearly, it wasn't superficial wounds as we were first being told.

[caligirl]

5. Maybe he did announce himself, prematurely flushing out the birds

and Cheney, being the hardass and imperialistic type he is, shot him for it.

[EstimatedProphet]

6. That makes more sense than the official story

[caligirl]

9. I have a Bush is Sauron tshirt. Your picture is cool.

edit for one more comment. That theory was my hubby's who spent his youth in Idaho and did some hunting for birds and other stuff.

[EstimatedProphet]

15. Thanks!

[Tulum_Moon]

11. Works for me

He seems like a very short tempered man.

[Avalux]

8. I'm with you on the 10 yards.

But I'm not sure if he was trigger-happy; I'm thinking he stumbled and his gun discharged - for whatever reason. Some seem to think he was drinking, maybe he was.

I also have a problem with the time of day this occurred - 5:50 pm. It gets dark here at 6:20. The sun would have been low on the horizon and it would have been difficult to see the birds. No way they should have been out there.

[EstimatedProphet]

13. Hadn't thought of that

But if it was due to stumbling, why not say so from the beginning, rather than imply the far worse situation of Cheney following a bird 180° and shooting outside of his field into someone he should have seen?

Also I agree with the time of day thing. They should have been wrapping it up at that point.

[Avalux]

18. He appears more manly with the current explanation?

Then he'd have to explain why he stumbled....the whole thing is just bizarre. :hi:

[EstimatedProphet]

20. That's a very good point

Rather than this being a cover-up for irresponsibility, Cheney may be trying to cover up his lack of "macho." I hadn't thought of that!

[Art_from_Ark]

22. If he'd stumbled,

he would have had some sort of dirt or scuff marks on his clothing (knees, etc.), no?

[EstimatedProphet]

23. Yeah, but he probably would have anyway

It's hard not to pick that kind of stuff up when hunting.

[Art_from_Ark]

26. I'm not talking about burrs or that sort of thing

I mean dirt/grass stains on knees, etc., caused by a fall. It's not like these guys were really out in the woods climbing rugged terrain.

[EstimatedProphet]

28. True

[sandnsea]

29. loaded guns in vehicles

hunting from a vehicle. Illegal and just plain tacky, unmanly stuff. That's why they concocted the hunting accident story.

[caligirl]

14. His gut sure looks like a beer gut.

[FearofFutility]

33. I read that the sun was behind poor old Harry

therefore in Cheney's eyes. Too late for safe hunting.

[EstimatedProphet]

34. True, but the silhouette should be a big stop sign

and would be for anyone other than Cheney.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

10. There has been a suggestion that the quail's wings were clipped.

Why didn't they just have a quail nailed to a board that Pepper could blast away at?

This is the GREAT mystery.

[Wickerman]

12. that's a great idea

if you actually have staff that did that you could just have them bring them into the bar. You'd never have to get off your bar stool but still have the satisfaction of "going hunting".

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

16. Just make sure the quail has a pulse

that Pepper can take away. Wouldn't be any fun, otherwise.

[EstimatedProphet]

19. Sometimes things like that do happen

I heard of a hunting organization that got a number of farm-raised quail as an effort for restocking a population. They barbecued them instead of stocking them.

[VOX]

17. Or perhaps Cheney fell, discharging his shotgun into Whittington...

Who would have been standing (or walking) only a few yards away. The shot pattern would not be inconsistent with this scenario.

[tyedyeto]

21. My problem is that from the beginning...

the 'official' witness (landowner) said that Whittington was coming up from behind. Any seasoned and responsible hunter or gun owner knows that you never turn and shoot. Announcing presence should not be any sort of defense if they are behind the shooter.

[EstimatedProphet]

24. BINGO!

[tyedyeto]

25. The other problem is that when hunting quail ( I've been there)

once a gun goes off, all coveys in the area scatter. It will take a long time before they covey up again and the hunters take a break and let the coveys re-form (beer is usually involved at this point).

[dweller]

36. and this?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x435314#440090?az=view_all&address=364x435314

dp

[sandnsea]

27. It was a gun discharge

Jumping out of their vehicle. That's why the Armstrong woman was in the vehicle, a witness, and had a hunting accident story that doesn't add up, all at the same time.

[Mme. Defarge]

30. What if ...

Cheney wasn't the shooter, but the fall guy? I can't help but think that the White House, at this point, is divided into "camps", with Cheney in one and Rove/Bush in the other. This whole affair has been a spectacular diversion. In that case, who benefits?

:tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat:

[Swamp Rat]

31. My conclusion: Cheney saw a Harry Whittington Quail

:D

[EstimatedProphet]

32. Good pic!