Conservative versus Liberal on the family--and national--scale.

[Ladyhawk]

I love natural history, but whenever I bring up evolutionary theory my mother gets nervous. It makes her uncomfortable that fossils of dinosaurs with feathers have been found. It makes her nervous that tiny relatives of Homo erectus were found on an Indonesian island.

These topics came up naturally. I have been drawing dromaeosaurs with feathers in my notes, possibly in preparation for a "real" drawing. Also, I like the fact that my parrot Gabby is, in fact, a dinosaur--with a temperament to match the most vicious Utahraptor.

I loved Peter Jackson's remake of King Kong and took my mother to see it as a Christmas present. Afterward over coffee we were remarking that it was obviously fantasy, but that good fantasy makes you buy into it, suspend incredulity and just watch (or read). Besides the obvious fact that King Kong's existence is impossible, I pointed out that the whole island ran counter to evolutionary tendency. Animals on islands tend to get smaller, not larger.

In both instances, I noticed my mother got quiet and didn't say much.

The final straw for her came tonight. When she came over, I was looking at Flying Spaghetti Monster t-shirts. When she finally asked what FSM was all about, she absolutely DID NOT WANT to hear Bobby Henderson's open letter to various school boards.

My mother likes to hide from reality. She doesn't want to hear about things that would shatter her fragile world view. In all honesty, I think she's too old to handle the shattering of a world view. I went through it alone and it hurt like hell. No one was there to help me pick up the pieces. I'd be there for her, but again, I think she's too old to change.

At the same time, my mother's absolute certainty that her way--fundamentalist Christianity--is the ONLY WAY directly endangers the freedoms we all hold so dear. She believes Falwell, Robertson, Limbaugh, Hannity--the screwballs who enable her delusion.

How do we deal with people like my mother who vote against basic freedoms and our right to believe as we choose--even our right to believe what is obvious fact? I go back and forth between fury and pity. Neither helps the problem on either the micro or macro scale. Good-hearted liberals all over the country find themselves unsure of what to do. I've tried cutting off all ties; full-on persuasion; dropping little "bombs" that will rock confidence in her world view (the fact of evolution works well); but nothing seems quite right. Nothing bridges the gap. Nothing really works.

She doesn't want to listen to what I have to say and at this point I've almost decided what she believes is none of my business. Unfortunately, she and others like her do not return the favor. She tries to re-convert me. She votes Republican, thereby curtailing science and the civil rights of those who don't think and feel (and look) the same way she does. My mother's willful ignorance does not make herless human. I'm hesitant to use the same tactics she cheerfully uses on me.

This is a real moral dilemma for me. It is a moral dilemma that is being played out all over the United States in families, in counties, in states and on the national level. How do we deal with the willfully ignorant? They are our family members and our fellow Americans.

[Warpy]

1. Rule #5, you can't change another person

especially when that other person is a parent. Change has to come from within.

That doesn't mean you have to grit your teeth and give tacit agreement. You're allowed to say they're wrong, just don't launch into a harangue of why they're wrong unless they invite you to.

The only word that I've ever seen have any sort of an effect on fundies is the word "unchristian." Since that describes this gang of thieves perfectly, and since even fundies have read the teachings of Jesus, it will pack a punch if you use it.

Just don't elaborate unless you're invited to.

[Ladyhawk]

6. I totally agree with you, but part of me wonders if I'm neglecting my duty

as a citizen of this country to try to change the minds of those who would lead us into fascism. That's my dilemma. Psychologically, it's better for me to leave it alone. :shrug: I'm really in no condition to push the issue, but I wonder if leaving it alone is the right thing to do as well as the emotionally healthy thing to do.

Why Rule #5 for that one? :)

Rule #6 You can only change yourself...?

Both of them have become part of my rule book, but part of me balks.

Other rules (for me only):

1. Question everything.
2. Trust no one completely.
3. Don't rely on others for your own happiness.
4. You can't change someone else. (I guess it's rule #4 for me :shrug:)
5. You can only change yourself.

I have more...I suppose I should write them down. :D

[gratuitous]

9. Toss in this rule

Number it wherever is convenient: You don't have any effect outside of relationship. If your mom wants to spit, cuss, fume and holler, let her spit, cuss, fume and holler. But stay in relationship. You need her to survive. She needs you to survive. There's no way around it. You don't have to be a doormat and just take it, and it sounds like you're not a doormat. I suspect that the reason your mom gets quiet about the subject is because you've demonstrated a greater mastery of the facts than she has available to her. She also probably realizes that the simplistic argument "God made it so" just isn't going to fly with you.

You probably have had a more profound effect on her than she lets on or than you realize. Stay in relationship.

Stray thought: Watching King Kong and the battle the ship's crew had with the giant insects, I was reminded of one of Isaac Asimov's essays he wrote for the magazine Fantasy and Science Fiction. Some horror movie had come out with oversized bugs, and Asimov considered the physiology of an insect: Exosekeletal, without developed internal organs, which is to say no lungs. Lungs are essential for an animal to gain any appreciable size at all. He rounded off the essay with the observation that there would be nothing quite so frightening, quite so potentially lethal or quite so DEAD as a giant insect. You had to read the whole essay, but the payoff line was laugh-out-loud funny.

[madeline_con]

2. FWIW, I've used this:

If God is all powerful, couldn't he make species evolve? It might at least ease tensions and open the door.

Personally, I talk long and hard to those who are sitting the fence on certain issues, because there's more of a chance of reaching them.


:shrug:

[TygrBright]

3. Madeline, that's been the view of the Catholic Church and...

...a good many other Christian sects. Evolution is a process that is part of God's plan for creation. FWIW, I think (from a Christian viewpoint) the idea of a God who could create such an incredibly intricate, yet functional, self-correcting web of life, and release it spin itself through billions of cycles of change and growth (with, presumably, an overarching purpose on a level so 'meta' we can only dimly perceive it--'through a darkened glass') is a much more powerful and moving Deity than the guy with the white beard who sez "poof" and makes stuff "just the way it is."

But hey, whatthehell do I know...

philosophically,
Bright

[madeline_con]

4. Gosh, I didn't know that....

seriously, about the Catholic church.

Thanks! :hi:

[Ladyhawk]

5. Yes, she doesn't have to give up her religious beliefs at all,

just the dogmatic part of it. That's very hard for fundies to do. :shrug:

I personally decided there was no deity involved. I'm an atheist. But in the world we want to create, we want a place where I can say, "I don't agree; you're wrong" and you can say the same thing back to me and no one pulls out a gun or tries to pass laws mandating that religion be taught in public school or strict scientific atheism be taught in homes and churches. Exactly where the wall between church and state should be erected is open for debate, but--sweet Jesus--I'm tired of the hostility. I just want to be free to think and be and let others do the same.

Damn, I get emotional about this. :cry: I just wish things weren't so hostile. :cry: A wedge has been driven into our society and we can all thank the hard right.

[kineneb]

7. My two cents

As to willfull ignorance and the so-called christians:

I portray Elizabeth Cornwallis, Lady Kytson (a real person) at one of the CA Renaissance Faires. Lady Kytson is an old-guard Catholic living in very Protestant Elizabethan England. One day, while visiting one of the merchants at the faire, she was confronted by a frothing (and somewhat out of period) Puritan who was doubting the belief of the Queen and some of her court. Lady Kytson calmly looked the madman in the eye and said, "But you, good man, are the heretic." Which left the Puritan sputtering and speechless.

To wit: These self-styled christians are heretics, and deserve to be called such. By the standards of the Catholic or mainstream Protestant sects, their belief system is so whacky that, indeed, they should be called Heretics to their face.

Just my two cents. (Or what happens when one has a extensive grounding in early Church/medieval history.)

[Ladyhawk]

8. I agree they are heretics, but calling my mother a heretic

certainly wouldn't be productive. I don't think any other folks on the Christian right would be persuaded by such an argument. :shrug:

I've gone from fury to pity and other emotions and tried various approaches, but nothing I do seems to make a difference.

Just within myself I'm leaning toward letting the fundies be. It's up to them to change. A small part of me wonders if this is a cop-out. Am I letting my nation down by allowing these crazies to get away with their stupidity? I don't know.

[kineneb]

11. Pity is what I used

But I don't think we should give the rabid fundies an inch, otherwise they think they are winning. Arguing doesn't work because they have closed minds. Likewise education doesn't work. And they are already full of anger. But gentle pity at least lets them know that they will be unable to convert you. Leave them unable to reply. I try to think of what a Buddha would say to a fundie: "Gee, I am so sorry that you are totally deluded. Perhaps in your next life you will learn into what errors you have fallen. Peace be with you."

Let the heretics know that you know where they are coming from, but completely disagree with the belief system. Something like (in a very calm and ominously quiet voice): "I love you, Mom, but I think your religious views are heretical, and I do not wish to hear about them ever again." And then remind her when she brings up the subject.

One of my shrinks gave me a communication formula that diffuses hostility and yet allows one to get the point across. It goes like this:
"I feel ___ when you ____."

[Ladyhawk]

12. Absolutely correct. One has to own one's feelings.

When you're angry, it sure is difficult to do it that way, but every wise person I've ever known has agreed that owning your feelings is important. Instead of a "You" statement it's an "I" statement. Unfortunately, the feelings that wash over me because of my crazy upbringing have made wisdom...elusive.

I have learned I cannot be vulnerable in relationships with fundies. It provides an in-road to a "you need Jesus to fill the hole in your life" confrontation. So, I've learned the hard way that I absolutely cannot ever get too close to a fundy. :( It's sad, but it's the only way to maintain sanity, boundaries and perspective.

I could try the pity angle, but my mother knows too much about my own physical and psychological ailments to ever respect anything I have to say. Of course, fundamentalism led to many of the struggles I face in my personal life, but a fundy will deny that with his or her dying breath.

Buddhism is a religion I rather respect. I could not be a Buddhist because I do not believe in reincarnation, but there seem to be fewer radical Buddhists than, say, radical religionists from any of the Abrahamic religions. I could be wrong simply because I was raised in the West where Abrahamic religions prevail, but Eastern religions seem more tranquil and full of much more wisdom. :shrug:

[kineneb]

15. more thoughts

And as an aside, even though I call myself a Buddhist, I don't believe in reincarnation, so much as recycling. We all come back as something, even if it is just compost. The earth and its atmosphere, for practical purposes, is a closed system.

One of the major tenents of Buddhism is "do no harm." Also, Buddhism does not have a supreme deity, so one could say that it is an atheist system, but its answer to that is- the existance or non-existance of a deity is irrevelvant to the individual's enlightenment. So, no god, no real heaven or hell as rewards when you die, only the here and now. Mindfullness in the now is the emphasis.

As far as the dead, the ancient Egyptians may have had it right: To speak the name of the dead is to cause them to live again. The dead will always be with the living who remember them.

Hang in there, and don't let the relatives get you down.

[Ladyhawk]

16. Thanks. :)

One of the reasons I've found Buddhism attractive is that it is an atheistic system...an atheistic religion, if you will. If you don't believe in reincarnation then your beliefs are probably pretty close to mine, even though I am not a Buddhist. :) It's been in the back of my mind to check out some of the Eastern religions because many a Buddhist or Taoist has brought me "enlightenment" without being preachy about it.

Yes, we are recycled. At one point I wanted my ashes scattered at sea because I love it there, but I've decided my body shouldn't go to waste. I'd like to donate my brain to science. Maybe it can tell us something about people like me and depression. I'm donating my body as well. Hopefully the embalmers won't get to it, first. :D

[DanCa]

10. I remember my grandma blanche saying

"I didn't come from no God dang monkey." To this day I see the anger in her eyes - may she rest in peace. I hate the way the chimp has managed to capitalize on that intensity and turn it into his base. Can anything be done to unite the country?

[Ladyhawk]

13. That is the question I'm asking, Dan.

I know of your struggles with your sister and other right-wing, fundy members of your family. Every day you live out the national dilemma on a personal level. You know the conflicting feelings of wanting to love and cherish fundy family members that are actively working and voting against your very existence.

In your case it is so very personal. You have Parkinson's and it's possible that stem cell research could give you some relief. There's no guarantee, but there is that hope. Fundies seem to think that a zygote is a human being. Rational thought and science point out the absolute FACT that a zygote is not a human being. A zygote has no heart or lungs or brain. A zygote cannot think or feel fear or pain. After the embryo has developed past a certain point, I do not personally support abortion, but I feel that debate needs to be deferred to another time. Right now the things the Republicans are doing are affecting real, thinking breathing human beings with hopes, fears, dreams and life experience. Jesus. It seems like Republicans only care about people before they're born or when they are (for all intents and purposes) dead. I am, of course, speaking about the Terri Schiavo case.

In my case, my family and certain friends think I need JEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEZUS to save me from my depression, diabetes, sleep apnea, OCD and PTSD when in fact the stress surrounding being brought up to worship JEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEZUS might have contributed to the development of these illnesses. :shrug: Unfortunately, because I am ill and have suffered greatly from depression, no fundy is going to listen to anything I have to say and take it seriously. This saddens me, but what am I supposed to do? They do not respect me and nothing I can do will earn their respect.

Yet--and here's the crux of the issue--I love my mother and have found that I still (gulp!) actually like some fundies. I don't trust them, but I don't want to throw them on a dung heap even though their actions have betrayed everything I hold dear. No matter how much I'd like to think otherwise, they are people and have some good qualities.

I've heard talk on DU and other places about a hot civil war. Some say (geez, I sound like Faux News) that we already exist in a cold civil war and that a hot civil war is a virtual certainty. Rhetoric from acerbic left-wing talk show hosts like Mike Malloy don't do anything to heal the gap. I used to listen to Malloy religiously and he is full of hatred toward the right wing. Yes, they've caused some very serious problems, but do I need to harden my heart and say, "Have I told you tonight how much I HATE these people?"

I can vote differently from the fundies. I can even (occasionally) engage them in political discourse. Once I cut off all relations with family for a period of some months. But could I ever engage in a hot civil war with people I know, even if those people are doing evil things? I don't think so.

Mike Malloy says that these people are not going to change their minds, that they're eventually going to sell us up the river. He says that we can't join hands with them and sing "Kum-bay-yah." Maybe he's right, but can we resort to violence?

Does anyone know of a way to heal this horrible wound without causing even more damage?

[DanCa]

14. We have to fight back a bit

The reason that the fundies have so much power is because that there bullies in a group. It's a group think tank. I can't tell you how offended i get when some mouth breedere says i am not christian because i wont be pro life. They Believe that nonsense and they dont care who they hurt with that bullcrap.
I think it's time that why start to physically protest the fundies. You know the chicago way, if they have a pro life chain link outside thier church we should have twice as many counter demostrating. We should be outside the dobson hq and demand that they should stop demonizing gays and any one different than them . Untill we start fighting back the bullies are in control. And how do you stop a bully you bloody it's nose.
The problem is that we ignored them and wrote them off as kooks. Now we have to fight back with protests of our own. Note I am not saying that we should protest the people in the pews mind you but the policy makers of the church. I still love Jesus but some of his followers, especially the ones that fear him scare the hell out of me.

[Ladyhawk]

17. Fighting back when they are behaving badly is not a "bad" tactic.

I think you've got something there. We should only protest and fight when they are behaving badly. We counter-demonstrate and send LTTEs to the local papers when Falwell, Robertson, Hannity or some other fundy cretin develops foot-in-mouth disease.

In another thread, Lerkfish posted thoughtfully about why left-wing Christians aren't more active in fighting the religious right: "Many chide the progressive christians that they must 'make a stand' against the religious right, as if they would listen to us...but if we DO 'make a stand', it puts us into a prickly conundrum regarding our strongly held views that no one should be coerced by the beliefs of another."

That echoed some of the thoughts in this thread. Most of me is convinced that it's impossible to change others anyway and that my responsibility is to change myself and live my beliefs to the best of my ability. :shrug: The left--religious and non-religious--are reluctant to force their ways on others; therefore, those who have no scruples are the ones with the loudest voices. What a quandary. :(

We do have to start taking a stand, but that doesn't mean we have to be pricks about it. We shouldn't use the religious right's tactics. That would mean picketing their churches, demonizing them as individuals, etc. I think you have the right idea. We need to point out the misdeeds of the righties when they overstep the line.

(But boy! I don't know about you, but I'm suffering from outrage fatigue. I'm so tired. We're getting attacked from all angles.)

[annabanana]

18. dear Ladyhawk

She is your Mom, and she always will be. You know you can never make inroads in a direct or confrontational way. It sounds to me like she is afraid. If a single brick in her worldview building is nudged, the whole house will come tumbling down around her ears. This is why she gets nervous when the subject of natural science comes up.

There may come occasions, in casual conversation, where you might posit a gentle question or two..(like the all encompassing nature of God) and let her get to a new perspective on her own. If a thought resonates from within, it isn't quite so scary. The tiniest little concession is a huge big deal.. if you can bring yourself to just let it lie. It will sit there in her subconscious when she's thinking about something else and, like sand in an oyster, attract layers.