I think the Shrine Bombings were the USA's doing.

[benburch]

I just cannot see any observant Muslim doing this.

Whose interests are served?

Ours. Or, rather, Bush's.

Sunni and Shiite were too close to being allied against us, and that had to be stopped.

Am I just in need of my Reynolds Wrap chapeau? :tinfoilhat:

[janx]

1. God only knows...and whoever did it, of course.

;-)

But we are in a state of insanity, that's for sure. Very Strange Times.

[PassingThrough]

2. They blow up Mosques, why not a shrine?

[zanne]

3. I don't see how a civil war in Iraq benefits Bush.

Could you elaborate?

[benburch]

6. In a Civil War, one side has to side with us because we have the weaponry.

We play one off against the other, and wind up with a puppet government that CANNOT ask us to leave, rather than a united government that was ABOUT TO ask us to leave.

[Just Me]

16. An "excuse" for permanent US military presence. That's what PNACers

,...want, you know,...don't you? Their plan IS permanent military presence. What ways can they justify a permanent presence when they lied to the public about going in and out?

Think about it.

[Tulum_Moon]

21. I think you are right

That is the reason for most of what has gone on over there for many years. And it is all for oil.

[Twist_U_Up]

53. Ding ding ding........ we have a winner. nt

[Avalux]

4. Well, chaos is the name of the game.

I don't know who did the bombing - at this point, I am beyond trying to figure it out. However -
I have always thought it's to the neocon's advantage to perpetrate as much chaos in the Middle East - makes it easier for us to gain control. Lives lost and destroyed on either side are of no consequence. That's why I'm convinced we will stage a bombing campaign against Iran and obliterate their infrastructure. We've got ships, jets and bombs doing nothing right now. Rummie's licking his chops for the OK to use them.

[Nederland]

5. Yes

...you are in need of your Reynolds Wrap chapeau.

It's unsubstantiated rumors like this that make us all look like kooks.

Please stop.

[benburch]

9. Who the fsck was pushing a rumor?

Unless you cannot tell the difference between a rumor and an opinion?

[Nederland]

13. Fair enough

Let me re-word:

It's unsubstantiated opinions like this that make us all look like kooks.

Please stop.

[benburch]

24. Nope.

Won't.

Deal with it.

[cali]

26. Thank you.

I detest this kind of stupidity. The OP provided no rationale as to how this would benefit the US in his original post. And his hasty explanation that one side would be forced to side with us is fine example of faulty reasoning. Iraq devolving into a 'hot' civil war (it's already in a low level one) in no way benefits bushco and the repukes. To the contrary, it makes mincemeat of every argument for the war that they've put forth.

[MadMaddie]

7. At this point anything is possible....

* has no control over what is happening. * Didn't know about the port deal until it was closed, which leads me to believe each department head is making decisions on their own. Rumsfeld is capable of doing something like this.

So loosen up your Reynolds wrap...you are one of many logical people who are in disbelief that we even have to contemplate that our government is involved. :banghead:

[Skidmore]

8. I can't see a Muslim doing this either.

As many problems as I had with the woman, I'm thankful my ex-mother-in-law, who passed away a couple of years ago, did not live to see this. She was a devout Shi'a and went on a hadj to the shrine once when she was a young mother. Rest her soul.

[BushOut06]

18. Why not? There are different factions of Muslims

It's like saying one can't understand why Catholics or Protestants would attack each other. Muslim factions do this to each other all the time.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

22. but devout Muslims that follow the Qur'an cannot

because it is expressly forbidden to destroy a mosque or fight a brother Muslim. These people may be using religion as an excuse, but they aren't following the faith.

Sufis who have been arrested, beaten, tortured, and whose place of worship was bombed and burned and bulldozed in Iran have not fought back, because it is forbidden. They have called for international censure of Iran for these actions.

[BushOut06]

23. True, but same could be said for almost any religion

The Quran also teaches that Muslims are to treat Christians and Jews as non-infidels, because they all are descended from Abraham and worship the same God.

And Christianity teaches its believers to love their neighbors as themselves, to turn the other cheek, stresses humility and meekness, and preaches against judging other people. Notice this didn't stop Catholics and Protestants from engaging in horrific acts of violence against each other.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

25. But Islam

has followed the Qur'an in the past-think back to Moorish Spain, or Saladin the Great, who did not slaughter the families of the Crusaders. I realize there have also been times of fighting between Sunni and Shia, but it has been quite a while since fighting like this has taken place.

[Posteritatis]

30. There are a billion of 'em, remember

No religion is a monolith. Christians aren't exactly encouraged to fight one another, too, but they spent almost two centuries putting Europe to the torch after the Protestants emerged. All you have to do to start is decide that the other guy isn't a real Muslim (or Christian, Jew, Democrat, Martian, whatever), and suddenly a lot of bad things become a lot easier to do.

[BluGrl]

32. Who decides who is a Muslim?

"it is expressly forbidden to destroy a mosque or fight a brother Muslim."

That may be true but you are also assuming that all Muslims are viewed as brothers (sisters). Sadly, that is not the case and that is how they justify the violence.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

43. But they are

this is what the Qur'an teaches. That is why so many Muslims are looking at what is happening in horror.

[bunkerbuster1]

20. What kind of "Christian" bombs a church or temple?

Why, an American "Christian," of course.

come now, certainly it's more than likely that this was a Sunni nutter's plot. Doesn't make us any less culpable for sowing the seeds of civil war with our idiotic Operation Enduring Clusterfuck.

[Beelzebud]

10. Religious freaks will do anything. That includes Muslims, or Bushists.

I have no idea, as someone else said: It could be anyone at this point. And at this point, none of it would suprise me...

[bryant69]

11. I'd like to see more proof than a vague accusation

To anybody - i will say that if nobody claims responsibility it will makke this theory more likely.

But anthing is possible at this point.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[fujiyama]

12. Who said they have to be "observant"

And who said the shrine was really that important for Sunni extremists?

And since when were Sunnis and Shiites "closely allied against the US"?

Sorry, but there havee been historical conflicts between the two sects. Sunnis have frequently persecuted Shiites in Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Afghanistan, etc.

All that said, the US did exploit this tensions and has grown to be hated by both sides.

But until I see a coherent explanation and evidence that 'black ops' did it, I see it more likely to be some sort of extremist Sunni Al Qaeda type that did this. I don't really even know how this helps the administration. They've been trying to milk the "progress" made with the elections all they could. Well, we know there is no progress and instead the nation is spiralling toward civil war.

[The_Casual_Observer]

14. In the sense that the mosques were untouched by Saddam and

all who came before, yes the USA seems to be responsible.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

15. 29 recent attacks...

on Mosques. This was the most important shrine, but not an isolated incident. Your questions are still valid, we just have to remember that it's far bigger than one attack.

[gatorboy]

17. I would've marked this tin foil territory until this came out:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060222/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_060222150138;_ylt=AkCLsBREPwCE6_FuSSK6lehX6GMA;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl

U.S. Says Will Help Rebuild Bombed Shrine

BAGHDAD, Iraq - Top U.S. officials strongly condemned the bombing of a revered Shiite shrine Wednesday, calling it a desperate and despicable act designed to foment sectarian strife.
ADVERTISEMENT

"Given the historic, cultural and religious importance of this shrine, this attack is a crime against humanity," the U.S. ambassador and the commander of U.S. forces in Iraq said in a joint statement. "The Shrine should be rebuilt and the United States will contribute to its reconstruction."

A pair of bombs Wednesday morning caused extensive damage to the golden dome of the Askariya shrine in Samarra, triggering protests and reprisal attacks against Sunni mosques.
---------------------------------------

Wow. That was quick. How many Shrines have been damaged or destroyed by U.S military power up to now? And suddenly they care?

Yeah, they're playing sides...

[Posteritatis]

29. That's a good question, actually

How many Shrines have been damaged or destroyed by U.S military power up to now?

How many have? I honestly don't know whether it's a few, a great deal, none of them, all of them, whatever. Can anyone fill me in, there?

As for this particular one, it's not just any site - it's closer to the equivalent of Notre Dame, or maybe St. Peter's, getting destroyed.

[genie_weenie]

37. Actually, the US always offers aid/money

to help construct repair Mosques. In fact, a general fund was set up which basically gave money to some Islamic Groups to fund mosque repair. (Little known is that alot of this money was siphoned off by insurgents).

I think the DUers on board the "Black Ops did it Theory" need to stop, take a deep breath and reevaluate why they believe that theory and see if perhaps they are allowing their anti-* stances to affect their thinking.

[WilliamPitt]

40. This is smart politics

Currying favor with the majority. Doesn't mean they blew it up.

[gasperc]

19. that's dumb, it's a civil war over there

sorry to be so blunt, but the US has ZERO to gain by blowing this thing up. and for the Iraqii government to come out and say it was Al-queda was also stupid since the average muslim knows al-queda wouldn't do any thing like this. They are about creating a new religious Caliphate that spans the entire middle east.

No, this was the action that has resulted from the on-going civil war between the Sunnis' and Shittes'.

check out Juan Cole for more info.

[paulk]

27. since the Sunni and Shiite have been at each other's throats

for over a thousand years, I don't know what you base your "observant Muslim" bit on.

The idea that a full blown civil war would benefit Bush is the most absurd thing I've read on
DU in quite some time. As other poster's upthread have pointed out.

Throwing out nonsense like this makes this website look like crackpot central.

You're gonna need a neckbrace for that tin hat...

[Posteritatis]

28. Can you see an observant Protestant bashing Catholics? Or vice versa?

I could, and the Shia/Sunni split's at least as fundamental as that.

I'm not exactly unwilling to completely dismiss the US as a suspect (though, to be fair, they've been good about holy sites so far - really, really bad about archaeological ones, but good about "contemporary" stuff), but I'm rather more willing to believe some sectarian jackasses were behind it.

[BluGrl]

31. One thing you have to understand about the divisions in Islam...

"Sunnis are kufr because of abc, Shia are kufr because of xyz." It goes on and on. They have serious disagreements with each other, to the point of claiming one or the other are apostates that should be treated no better than atheists, christians or jews.

Why wouldn't they bomb a shrine? Especially if they felt it was somehow disrespectful to their religious beliefs.

[GrpCaptMandrake]

33. I'm not at all sure about some things

but about some others, I am:

I am certain that a regime that started this war on false pretenses would do almost anything to continue it. Wars started on false pretenses are not meant to be ended.

Please recall that Jafaari stood on his hind legs just a few days ago and told off the Bush Regime and the Blair Government.

In an Iraq where a majority of the population sees it as acceptable to attack us, the occupiers, we are far better off setting them on themselves.

But of course, the Iraqi Religion Industry is involved and, like all religions, insanity is in the mix. Fundies are fundies the world over, whether it's American fundies killing doctors or Iraqi fundies killing other fundies.

If I had the money, I'd mass produce and Arabic translation of Dr. Seuss' "The Sneetches" and drop them from airplanes all over Iraq, for it is the perfect paradigm for the Sunni/Shi'a model.

Read it for yourselves. You'll see what I mean.

[genie_weenie]

34. The *TRUTH* of who destroyed the Shrine (a must read)

Unrepentant descendants of the Society of Assassins, begun by the Old Man on the Mountain, and their current leader Hasan I Sabah XII, together with a secret clan of Warriors of Tamerlane, were contacted by the Ghost of Deep Throat, who informed them via Ouija Board to blow up the Shrine in order to stop the Return of the Mahdi (who will be portrayed by the bones of Laurence Oliver). The Mahdi, upon receiving instructions from the Skull of the Black Madonna will institute the Creation of the Canals, which metaphorically will combine all mankind...

[Posteritatis]

35. OMG! It's all so clear now!

:yourock:

[WilliamPitt]

38. I just wet myself

[reDEMption]

36. Whoa...

You need to have some real facts behind you to make this kind of accusation. God knows Bush & Co. have made their mistakes--there's lots of substantiated material there... However, to say something like you did just makes us ALL looks like nothing more than vicious little kids.

We've GOT to be more grown-up than that. Let's not be as immature, nasty, and unfair as we think THEY are.

:blush:

[WilliamPitt]

39. Um

Muslim-on-Muslim violence is as old as sand. They're people, too.

[benburch]

44. You may be right.

But seems to me this is like the Druids blowing up Stonehenge, or the Protestants blowing up the Vatican. It just doesn't make sense to me, even though cynical political motives do.

I guess it is a mark of how evil I think Bush is that he is my first consideration when something evil happens on this planet.

[onenote]

45. it makes no sense for chimpy to foment civil war

Public sentiment regarding this war continues to turn against chimpy. And its pretty well understood by the repugs in congress that if we don't start bringing troops home by the 2006 election, a lot of repugs are going to be looking for new jobs. If the reason chimpy can't bring troops home is that the country is disintegrating, it just makes more people think that chimpy screwed up by starting the war or in the way he ran it, or both.

Civil war is the last thing they want because it kills them politically at home.

onenote

[benburch]

46. But is he trying to serve Republican interests? Or Business Interests?

Seems to me that a lame duck might just be feathering the nest and to hell with the Party.

[WilliamPitt]

47. You're not evil

but you need to know the difference between Shi'ite and Sunni.

Think Catholic vs. Protestant in Ireland. They're all Christians, but once upon a time, they killed each other and blew stuff up by the gross lot.

[benburch]

48. Know that well. I have a foot in each camp.

But did they ever blow up CHURCHES? I don't recall that.

Again, I have no doubt you are right, but this makes so little sense!

[genie_weenie]

50. Think of the 30 years war

at least 8 million "Germans" died, and that was 1618-1648.

And think of the problems caused after Cromwell's invasion of Ireland.

Or the French wars of Religion, the St. Bartholomew's Day massacre in 1572.

[WilliamPitt]

55. 1993: IRA bomb devastates City of London

1993: IRA bomb devastates City of London

A massive bomb has ripped through the heart of the City of London, killing one and injuring more than 40.

The explosion shook buildings and shattered hundreds of windows, sending glass showering down into the streets below. A mediaeval church, St Ethelburga's, collapsed; another church and Liverpool Street underground station were also wrecked.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/april/24/newsid_2523000/2523345.stm

===

Hard-liners opposed to the peace attempted to undo it through church bombings and other violent acts, notably a car bomb in Omagh that killed 28 people and wounded over 330 (August 15, 1998). Strong public revulsion against the so-called Real IRA, which claimed responsibility for the Omagh attack, forced it and other Irish republican groups to suspend violent campaigns. Northern Ireland's major Protestant and Catholic parties clashed over different interpretations of the peace agreement in December 1998, while the outlawed IRA was refusing to disarm.

http://www.onwar.com/aced/data/india/ireland1998.htm

[benburch]

58. I stand corrected!

Thanks!

[MrsMatt]

41. Well the Wahhabis have a history of blowing up holy

sites, and they are Muslim.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wahhabi

http://www.nmhschool.org/tthornton/wahhabi_movement.htm

[Junkdrawer]

42. Not saying that they did, but if an attack on Iran were imminent...

would BushCo want the Iraqi Shi'a "available" for alliance with the Iranian Shi'a or locked in a civil war? :shrug:

[Disturbed]

49. Oh, yeah the US Forces respect Mosques.

[oblivious]

51. Reuters: Iran blames Iraq shrine blast on foreign forces

TEHRAN, Feb 22 (Reuters) - Shi'ite Muslim Iran said on Wednesday a dawn bomb attack which devastated a Shi'ite shrine in Iraq was orchestrated by Israel and U.S.-led foreign forces hoping to promote sectarian strife in Iraq.

Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, who has the last word on all state matters in the Islamic Republic, urged Shi'ites not to take revenge on Sunni Muslims for the attack on the Samarra shrine.

"This is a political crime and its origins should be found in the intelligence organisations of the occupiers of Iraq and the Zionists," Khamenei said in a statement read out on state television.

"The dominating powers ... have ominous plans such as aggravating the insecurity and creating religious disputes ... Today's crime in Samarra added another page to the list of misdeeds by Iraq's occupiers," he added.

... "There are definitely some plots to force Shi'ites to attack the mosques and other properties respected by the Sunnis," he said. "Any measure to contribute to that direction is helping the enemies of Islam and is forbidden by Sharia," he added.

... "It aims to insult religious sanctities, trigger turmoil, launch religious war, and create rifts among the Iraqi people," he added.

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L22716149.htm

[oblivious]

57. IRAN: SUPREME LEADER BLAMES U.S. AND ISRAEL FOR IRAQ MOSQUE ATTACK

...In a statement, the Iranian leader says those behind the attack were "the occupation forces and Zionism, which seeing their plans for Iraq dissolve, have planned this atrocity to sew hate between Muslims and fuel divisions between Sunnis and Shiites".

..."The attack this morning in Samarra had one aim, to divide Muslims" said the Iranian foreign ministry spokesman, Hamid Reza Asefi. “This attack shows on one hand that the aim is to cause divisions within the ummah (global Muslim community) trying to turn Shiites against their Sunni brothers. "On the other it is a clear sign that the occupying armies are incapable of guaranteeing the security of Iraq or fighting terrorism" Asefi added.

http://www.adnki.com/index_2Level_English.php?cat=Terrorism&loid=8.0.268169384&par=

[fishnfla]

52. Ya know, some Muslims regard other Muslims as infidels

I pretty much regard many Americans as completely ignorant, especially on ME issues

edit: "Taqfir" anyone?

[flyarm]

54. WOW! thats what i have been feeling all day!!

the minute it came on msm i was feeling sick..my gut screamed..we fucking did it..we did it ..we did it...

i thought * wants civil war..

i hate our government..i feel sick...

fly

[High Plains]

56. It seems like the obvious suspect is Zarqawi and his gang.

Unlike the Iraqi Sunnis and Shia, Al Qaeda in Iraq has no real stake in a stable Iraq. For them, Iraq is an opportunity to take it to the Americans and their position might be summed up as "the worse the better." Chaos in Iraq ties down the Americans and turns the invasion into shit.

I think the Iranians were correct to blame foreign fighters; they're just blaming the wrong ones.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

59. That was my first thought. Not far fetched. Remember the British soldiers

who were found committing a terrorist activity as they were garbed as Iraqis?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1573933,00.html

[BelgianMadCow]

61. Ding. Ding. Diiing.

Spot on. An unbelievable story, that one. Thanks for the reminder.

[BelgianMadCow]

60. this was my first consideration as well

but I'm a speculative kind of guy.

Is it feasible to orchestrate such a series of attacks? I think it would be hard to do. The truth would come out (as it may do).

Then again, asking the question who benefits, I think Bushco does. This will fan the flames of hate that fuel the war.

I surely don't put it past them, as this also rang my "Cartoon" bell. Manufacturing hate and fear is what they do.

The question upthread about how many mosques were destroyed before is very valid. Seems to me most other attacks have been on people waiting in line before a post office, a police station or the likes, not on places of worship.

[Moderator]

62. I'm locking this thread

This serves no useful purpose