Who in their right f'n mind would argue the Confed flag is "heritage"?

[Taverner]

I can understand the Southern respect for their culture, and way of life.

But I just got finished arguing with someone from Georgia on how the Confederate flag is part of their history, and should be respected.

Respected? Respected my ass!!! It's literally no different than German-Americans flying the Nazi flag to honor their German roots. It is the flag of TRAITORS. Yes, Virginia, the Confederates took up arms against the USA and committed the act of TREASON.

And besides that, it's basically saying you're OK with Slavery, our own home grown genocide and ethnic cleansing.

[arcane1]

1. "basically saying you're OK with Slavery ... genocide and ethnic cleansing

that pretty much sums up the views of everyone I've ever heard defending the confederate flag

[frankly_fedup2]

135. That is NOT what the flag stood for. It was going to be the Southern

United States Flag once they separated from the rest of the U.S. and became their own country. That is what started the war. Slavery was one of the issues but there were others as well.

I agree it was wrong and no one has a right to "Own" another person; however, the French and the British were a lot worse than the U.S. was back then. The Irish were slaves at one point in time as well as the Jews.

Most women from the last generation are still slaves (for lack of a better word) to their husbands. Just watch some of your mothers and grandmothers and aunts wait on their husbands hand and foot.

I told my husband that I would "Obey" (in church vows was forced to use that term or could not use that church) when he made enough money to support the whole household alone and my check is free and clear money for us to save some and blow some and buy some extra things, then I would obey. Until then, he can fix his own plate at the family reunion. (His mother makes me do it every year).

[arcane1]

166. I'm failing to see your point..

after all, the Nazi flag stood for more than just gas-chambers

on edit- there is no woman in my family (and I knew them all the way back to my great-grandmother) who ever waited on or obeyed ANY man

[northzax]

2. oh goodie, we haven't had one of these in a while

:popcorn:

[Richard Steele]

15. Mind if I squeeze in?

:popcorn: :popcorn:

[MazeRat7]

18. Hope three is not a crowd... but Mondays are generally so boring....

:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

[northzax]

22. you get one of these as well

trust me, they help.

[frankly_fedup2]

136. Northzax, could you tell me what you did to get your mixed drink

picture to post? I have followed the instructions and never can I get any picture to post.

Help . . . anyone?????


Oh yeah, I wanted to be in with the watchers after my comment. I know somebody is going to attack me in some way, shape, or form.


:bounce: :woohoo: :popcorn: :rofl: :applause: :shrug: :patriot: :woohoo: :rofl:

Looks like the alcohol has kicked in pretty quick on some people. :beer:

[northzax]

153. well, to post an image

simply right click (if you're in Windows) and go to "properties" or "copy shortcut" and get the url of the image. then post that url in your message.

Of course, you should never use someone's image or bandwidth without their permission.

and it ain't the booze that's kicking in, some topics just make people batty.

[Jawja]

35. Let me in.

Ah, South bashing flamebait. Move over.

:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

[northzax]

19. you'll need some of this as well

[Crazy Guggenheim]

114. How ya doin'? I got some cigars and brandy.

:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

[NoPasaran]

3. Ethnic cleansing?

:popcorn:

[Taverner]

12. Yep

Just take a look at the Dred Scott laws.

[NoPasaran]

34. Dred Scott was a Supreme Court decision

And as wrong and dreadful as it was it had nothing to do with expelling an ethnic group and forcing them to become refugees.

[mdmc]

4. I would

if you care to listen! I would really enjoy discussing this with you.:kick:

[Taverner]

9. OK...take your best shot

And don't say that the Civil War was not about Slavery. To thousands of Northerners and Southerners it was. And if you argue the war was about economics, I'll agree with you - the economics of slavery.

[mdmc]

20. Yes, the war was about slavery, if you need that as a starting point

but I would not have started there. I would have started far earlier. With all due respect, we all have ancestors, we all come from somewhere. And if I had come from a southern family, I would have had ancestors that fought in the Confederate Army. The truth is that I had ancestors that fought in the American Revolution, but my family was able to avoid fighting in the civil war. I am descendant from a northern family. For the record, the part of my family (paternal grandmother's side) that was in America during the civil war supported the north and opposed slavery.

So, I would start there. Some good people served on both sides of the civil war. We can agree with this one point, can't we? (I am leading up to something, and want to make sure that you are with me on this):kick:

[Taverner]

30. But by that starting point...

...we could argue that some good people faught for Nazi Germany as soldiers in the Reich Army.

[mdmc]

44. we could, and we do. They were victims of the reich, but their

families will still honor them and display medals, pictures and such.

Now, returning to The War Between the States, good people fought and died on both sides. Both sides had honorable and dishonorable reasons for fighting the war.

While I think that continued manufacture and display of the bars is racist, I think that historical flags and artifacts are noble and honorable things to display.

I know that if I had burial flags from the death of a confederate ancestor, I would display it with other flags (such as my grandfathers wwII flag, and my uncles Vietnam flag). It would not be a racist thing at all.

[manic expression]

168. There is a difference

between proudly displaying symbols of racism and oppression and displaying the same thing for historical reasons.

The southerners who died during the war were victims of the Confederacy. This was especially apparent when rich southerners were practically made exempt from Confederate military service.

The fact is that the South had a much more dishonorable reason for fighting the war, one that was very important to their cause: the preservation of slavery of human beings.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

45. Not to put too fine a point

on it, but yes, some good people fought for Nazi Germany as soldiers. Including my father-in-law, who was also a Jew.

[mdmc]

48. In 1989 I visited with family friends in Munich, they were in the

same boat as your father in law. They still had nazi issued fine china (because they were poor, and could not purchase new fine china, not because they are still (were ever) nazis.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

60. Our Opa's situation

was fascinating and tragic. He was illigetimate and never had "Jew" on his birth certificate and therefore able to hide it throughout the war. His family was not as lucky, however. He was a Jew by blood but not practicing. As you can imagine, he has a lot of emotional neuroses and such. I wish we could get him to share more, but we can't.

[mdmc]

62. he must be very old

I don't know if you are near other wwII survivors, but that might help. The German people are so beautiful...it makes me sad to think that fascism could overtake them....or us here in the usa.

[Taverner]

64. It can happen ANYWHERE

Look at Cambodia, a peaceful people with a rich Buddhist history - some of the nicest people ever to grace the Earth. Along comes Pol Pot and he kills 1/3 of his own country.

[mdmc]

110. awful

:kick:

[TallahasseeGrannie]

65. He just turned 80.

He was captured near Normandy and spent the next few years in English POW camp, then he was sponsored to come to the US by a pair of Jewish doctors. He went back to Germany only long enough to make his arrangements. (and get his girlfriend pregnant!)

[mdmc]

111. well, a kick for his quickie!

hopefully he can find someone that enjoys talking with him about this stuff. It is hard:kick:

[Charlie Brown]

67. There were many decent people who fought in the Wehrmacht

There are veterans groups that hold commemoration ceremonies constantly, and even Heads of State like Schroeder have commemorated fallen soldiers of the Reich. His own father was killed in action in Romania five months after D-Day.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1922524

http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0509/p10s01-woeu.html

A Jewish professor of his in Hamburg, a concentration camp escapee, helped Gribkowski come to grips with his decision to fight for the Wehrmacht. After he became a psychology teacher in Germany's postwar army, he passed the professor's lessons of tolerance on to the next generations of German soldiers. "It would be good if people in the future dealt with history more objectively - that they don't see everything in black and white," says Gribkowski.

In 1999, he joined a group of survivors from Paarmann's regiment. They now meet every four weeks to reminisce over dinner, and talk of educating future generations.

In 2003, they were finally able to build their own memorial, with the help of private funds. "Not forgotten" reads the beginning of the inscription, in bronze letters on black African granite. At the bottom, so that their intention isn't misinterpreted, are the words "Pray for peace."

[mdmc]

112. thank you for your post

on tolerance!:kick:

[Yupster]

102. Do you have a problem with the

Sons of Confederate Veterans organization holding the flag?

They are the ones most offended by the groups like the KKK using their symbol. I was friends with the general of the group for this area for many years. He was a wonderful man who was killed tragically in a car crash while going to visit his triplet grandchildren.

If there was ever a Klan presence in this area, he always made sure his group was there to protest the Klan. He felt he had to do that to defend his group's symbols which he felt had been taken over by the hate groups like the Klan.

Anyway the SCV organization is still very active throughout the south.

It's not really that surprising when you consider the impact that the war had on the south.

Of the approximately 1 million adult, physically fit for military duty white males in the south at the start of the war about 250,000 of them were killed and 250,000 of them were wounded. We've never had losses anything like that in any war we've ever had.

So it's supposed to be surprising that counties put up memorials to the dead or formed organizations to honor them? I wouldn't think that would surprise anyone.

The losses were even more damaging because of the way the Confederacy formed its units. Regiments were formed by county. In effect the entire adult male population of the county marched to war together usually with the preacher or mayor elected as their leader. Just as an example, the 26th North Carolina was from Crabtree North Carolina which back then was a farming community. At Gettysburg, they lost 71 % of their men. Can you imagine the news of that reaching the community? Three out of the four men of the whole community were killed or wounded on the same day. And we would be surprised if the survivors put up a memorial or joined a veteran's group to honor the fallen? I don't see why anyone would be surprised by that.

[AndyTiedye]

5. People Like This Guy

[pocket]

33. Isn't that Senator Byrd?

heh, j/k

[AndyTiedye]

37. Someone Posted This Gem on DU a While Back & I Grabbed It

[Hatalles]

78. LOL!

[Left_Winger]

123. ROFLMAO

The cost of a lighter: one dollar,
the cost of a gallon of gas: about two dollars...
a racist bigot setting his ass on fire: priceless!

[seabeyond]

6. lots of people in my neck of the woods. and they are ALL racists

and they will out loud admit to it. but then tell me they fly the flag cause of heritage. anyone flying the flag or putting on car is doing it for one reaon only

[mdmc]

23. there are many people that are racist where I live as well

but you would never see an overt sign of these feelings. It is the dirty little secret of the north. I must admit that I had forgotten what it was like to see blatant signs / sounds of bigotry like the ones you describe.

[FreedomAngel82]

104. What gets me

is how they claim to be the most patriotic and all that but the flag we have as our country's symbol today was the flag of the north in the civil war with just less stars and all that. So wouldn't they only be patriotic to the old southern ways? It seems to me they like to stay in the past where they are in control and nobody else is equal. I guess it's a power trip thing. :shrug:

[La Lioness Priyanka]

7. dont get that either

its like germans trying to argue that the swastika is symbol of a heritage of pride :eyes:

[Donald Ian Rankin]

36. Actually, it is, albeit not a German one.

The swastika has a long and honourable history; it's been turning up in all sorts of cultures all over Europe, India, and America for thousands of years - as a symbol of luck, the sun, or Brahma in Hinduism, often used in marriages ant the like, for example. If you read the works of Rudyard Kipling in older editions you'll often find them decorated with swastikas, to make them seem more Indian.

Even today, it's not exclusively used by Nazis. Several times I've been walking through central Cambridge and been momentarily horrified by being confronted by groups with banners with swastikas on them before I spotted the people meditating under them and realised that it was only Falun Gong.

Generally, most although not all non-Nazi swastikas are arranged horizontally/vertically, whereas Nazi ones tend to be on a diagonal, although it's not a hard and fast rule and I wouldn't recommed using even a square-on one unless you're doing so in a context it's specifically relevant to.

[Taverner]

38. The Swastika is not the same as the one used in Eastern Religion

It is the "working man's cross", basically a christian cross made with the tools of the industrial German worker.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

42. i know. just making an analogy.

and yes the non-nazi swastika is still a very imp symbol to hindus

[Odin2005]

75. My understanding is that the Nazis used the swastika...

...because they associated the "master race" with the spread of horse-riding nomads who spoke Indo-European languages (sometimes called the Proto-Scythians or Kurgans) from what is now SW Russia into Europe and India. We know from Hindu epics these people called themselves Arya, meaning "noble". The Nazis then misused this linguistic and historical data to promote thier sick mythology.

[FreedomAngel82]

105. The Nazi swastika is turned backwards

from the real swastika. The real one is very positive and spiritual. The Nazi's turned it backwards and used the negativity energy.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

119. Are you certain?

More than half of the non-nazi swastikas I've seen have been going anticlockwise (in the sense that that's the way they'd turn if they were waterwheels).

Is there a good term to distingush between swastikas pointing in the two directions?

[manic expression]

169. They can be both ways

so it makes it more difficult to say. At least, I've seen swastikas that are positive both ways. Sometimes the ones that are diagonal are more oftentimes Nazi-related, but it's hard to tell from just looking at it. Actually, there is really no sure-fire way to tell from just the swastika itself, so you have to get it in context.

Also, the Greeks, Romans, Celts and even MesoAmericans (I'm pretty sure) have used swastikas as well.

[misternormal]

40. The swastika...

... Predates the Nazi's by a few thousand years...

Of course it took a fascist to bastardize the meaning.

http://history1900s.about.com/cs/swastika/a/swastikahistory.htm

[La Lioness Priyanka]

41. i know. i was born hindu,

[manic expression]

170. If

this applies in any remote way...

Jai ma!

If not...

Sorry, carry on. :blush:

[Yupster]

97. When I got my master's from New Mexico State University,

the school yearbook was called the Swastika.

[RubyDuby in GA]

8. I am from the South and have a degree in history. Here's how I look at it

Yes, it is a part of the South's past, but that's also where it belongs - in the past. If various groups want to drag it out on the weekend and play dressup and wave it around, that's fine, but don't fly it over the damn state capital.

Just my two cents worth.....

[Taverner]

11. I would tend to agree with you Ruby

Civil War re-enactments are a different dog altogether.

[bleedingheart]

10. yeah...when we know this is the flag of the winner

<>



:evilgrin:

:popcorn:

[rd_kent]

13. While I agree with you.......

that the Confederate flag seems to stand for all the things you listed and are dispicable, it is the right of any American to fly any flag they want. IMHO, if someone wants to advertise their ignorance, let 'em. Makes 'em easier to identify!

[Taverner]

14. Also agreed

But When I see the Stars and Bars I am looking at a racist, plain and simple.

[rd_kent]

16. Correct! No argument here!

But I will be the first one to defend the idiots rights to show that flag, or any other for that matter.

[Clark2008]

21. Then you're just as biased as you claim Southerners who

respect this flag to be.

It wasn't about racism or slavery. It was about states' rights.

Black people, for what it was worth, didn't get equal citizenship until the 1960s Civil Rights movements, a full 100 years after the Civil War.

The flag is a part of Southern heritage. Do I fly it? No. Why would I?

But I do understand that it's about a lot more - much, much more - than slavery. And I'm in my correct mind, thank you very much.

[AndyTiedye]

25. States Rights To Do What?

It was about the states' rights to deny any rights whatsoever to people who were born and raised there,
and to treat those people as property, just because of the color of their skin.

States rights, My :kick:

[Taverner]

29. "It was about the states' rights to deny any rights..."

"...whatsoever to people who were born and raised there,
and to treat those people as property, just because of the color of their skin."

Very true!

[mdmc]

51. it is possible that the Confederacy, if victorious

could have arrived at the same place the Union did, race wise. It is possible.

[northzax]

106. I would say inevtiable

had the Confederacy succeeded in sucession, (wow, say that three times fact) Slavery wouldn't have lasted past about 1900. That's what's so really pathetic about the Confederacy attempt to fight to keep it, after several millenia of slavery in the human experience, a critical mass of humans was beginning to realize how awful of an institution it really is (I use 'is' because there remain small pockets of slavery on the planet) At best, the confederacy could have kept slavery for 40 years before collapsing from international pressure.

[mitchtv]

108. n a book of the 60's called "If The South had won the War"

They claim that the defeated Union wouldn't have been able to afford Alaska and e would have entered the cold war with USSR on our doorstep. They also claim that a reunion would happen in the 20th century. Interesting thoughts

[Radio_Guy]

156. Possible? Yes. Probable? Are you kidding?

"it is possible that the Confederacy, if victorious could have arrived at the same place the Union did, race wise. It is possible."

Have you spent any time in the rural South? I have and most of these people still look down at African-Americans as second class citizens.

[AndyTiedye]

176. Yes, It's Possible

[Clark2008]

173. Don't know much about the war, do ya?

Read a book, please.

And not one written by a Northerner. I know, I know, those who win wars write history, but, seriously, read one written by a Southerner. Most Southerners didn't own slaves, you know.

[rd_kent]

27. Well, I wouldnt say biased...

I understand what the "original" meaning of the flag is, but I think one would be hard pressed to find very many people who support displaying the confederate flag to give the answer you did. IMO, most folks who want to display this flag are bigots at least and would look at funny if you suggested to them that the confederate flag stood for states rights.

[ieoeja]

53. Clark2008 is right!

The southern states did not secede because of slavery, per se. They left the union because the federal gov't usurped individual state's authority. Before you react, just consider the following small sample of federal actions prior to the outbreak of the Civil War:

o struck down the various northern states laws forbidding slavery (see Dred Scott);
o struck down the Missouri Compromise (see Dred Scott);
o struck down the ban on slave trade in federal territories (see Dred Scott);
o made it illegal to assist an escaped slave in the northern states;
o authorized southern law enforcement to seek out slaves in northern states;
o gave southern slave hunters the power to draft local officials and citizens when operating in the north.

You can see where the southern states would have tired of this abuse of federal power being done in their names. They probably figured the only way to stop the spread of slavery into regions where it was clearly unwanted was to separate themselves from those regions. The northerners should have been grateful.

Clearly, the south was trying to STOP THE SPREAD OF SLAVERY. The northerners just got it all backwards.

[Beelzebud]

141. Then why, after the war, did they practice segregation?

A whole lot of Southern White Wash going into this history lesson...

[CTLawGuy]

148. Stop the spread of slavery???

please tell me you are kidding?

Also, what northern state laws forbidding slavery did Dred Scott strike down. It said that a northern state could not take a slaveowner's "property" just because the owner entered the state with his slave.

[Mnemosyne]

56. They also dehumanized the slaves, I believe, to salve their

consciences for what they had to know to be very wrong deep down in their hearts and souls. Just something I have always felt to be true. Maybe I am naive and see good human traits where none actually exist though. It has been known to happen.

You have a good point about the civil rights and the 1960's.

I live in NW Pa. and I have lived in the deep South, Alabama. The open racism I witnessed in the South shocked me, but at least they were honest bigots.

Here in the North it is more subtle most of the time, though there are some disgusting loud mouth racist pigs here also.

The subtle quiet racism is almost worse. Many of those I know that are racist have never met a single black person in their entire life! Or they may have met only a few when they were in the service.

It makes me crazy!

I like it here at DU much better. ;)

In hope of peace,
V

[bleedingheart]

24. that is the way I view it...

makes it easier to know who is playing with a full deck...

[Swamp Rat]

17. Whose and what "heritage?"

The heritage of genocide and hate, perpetuated by psychos.

[triguy46]

26. Heritage per se does not have to be positive and good.

In this case, IMHO, it simply states that the individual claims a racist tradition as a family legacy. Respect is not automatic just because one claims it. By this same logic, polygamy among mormons should be "respected," because it represents generations of tradition.

Probably no need to argue with these types, ya' ain't gonna win them over.

[RandiFan1290]

28. This sums it up pretty well

http://www.slate.com/id/97606/

With the rise of racial liberalism in the mid-20th century, historians revised their assessments of the Civil War and Reconstruction, and support for the Lost Cause mythology waned. But, paradoxically, the advance of civil rights also contributed to the revival of symbols and language of the Confederacy, as white Southerners saw their system of legalized segregation endangered. During Strom Thurmond's 1948 campaign for the presidency, his Dixiecrat supporters brandished Confederate flags and photos of Robert E. Lee. Within a couple of years, the rebel banner became, in one historian's words, "a nationwide fad, foreshadowing coonskin caps and hula hoops."

The Supreme Court's 1954 Brown v. Board of Education decision, striking down segregated schools, fueled the backlash. Confederate lore and imagery accompanied a widespread Southern campaign of "massive resistance" to federal desegregation orders. Dozens of U.S. congressmen signed the "Southern Manifesto" pledging to fight federal intervention, and federal troops and Southern whites faced off at schools in Little Rock in 1957, Montgomery in 1961, and the University of Mississippi in 1962. The star-studded X of the Confederate battle flag began appearing on redesigned Southern state banners, and demonstrators waved the Dixie standard at anti-integration protests.

In response to civil rights advances, new Southern heritage groups also sprang up, devoted to such efforts as schooling children in their own version of Civil War history. One 1954 "catechism" discovered by author Tony Horwitz taught kids that slaves "were always ready and willing to serve" their masters and that the "War Between the States" was caused by "the disregard by those in power for the rights of Southern states." That language was telling: for although many Southern whites openly espoused white supremacism, they nonetheless insisted—again like their Lost Cause predecessors—that they were really championing the cause of states' rights. The new Southern resistance was most famously epitomized by Alabama Gov. George Wallace, whose defiant defense of segregation shocked liberals but found unexpected legions of followers in Maryland, Wisconsin, and elsewhere outside Dixie.

Wallace's popularity highlighted an unusual divergence in American values in the '60s. On the one hand, the civil rights movement succeeded smashingly—not just in dismantling segregation but also in making the belief in equal rights and the tolerance of differences a broadly accepted national creed. Racism had been routed, discredited. Yet at the same time, as Wallace realized, resentment toward Washington and the welfare state was burgeoning around America, and the ancient call of "states' rights" now resonated with those whose complaints had little to do with forced desegregation. In particular, Westerners such as Barry Goldwater, Richard Nixon, and Ronald Reagan realized they could tap into the anti-Washington ardor of the once solidly Democratic South to build a new Republican coalition. Goldwater's inroads in the South came at the expense of his popularity elsewhere (his opposition to the 1964 Civil Rights Act, for example, hurt him), but Nixon and Reagan—and later Bush père and fils—brought the South decisively into the GOP tent.

[Kingshakabobo]

100. So true.

The heritage meme is bull-shit. The flag crawled back out of the sewer during the civil rights and anti-segregation fights of the 50s and 60s.

>>>>>But, paradoxically, the advance of civil rights also contributed to the revival of symbols and language of the Confederacy, as white Southerners saw their system of legalized segregation endangered. During Strom Thurmond's 1948 campaign for the presidency, his Dixiecrat supporters brandished Confederate flags and photos of Robert E. Lee. Within a couple of years, the rebel banner became, in one historian's words, "a nationwide fad, foreshadowing coonskin caps and hula hoops."<<<


>>>The star-studded X of the Confederate battle flag began appearing on redesigned Southern state banners, and demonstrators waved the Dixie standard at anti-integration protests.<<<

[SemiCharmedQuark]

118. Perfect. Thank you.

[Skidmore]

31. Maybe we need to ask them, if you are so uberpatriotic, why

do you need to have two flags flying over you--especially one of a nonexistent nation. That is treasonous.

[RB TexLa]

32. If they really wanted to use heritage they could fly this one

The flag of Scotland with Saint Andrew's cross on it, which many believe is where the "Southern Cross" came from. There are some that say the saltire comes from Saint Patrick's flag, could have been, but it would have come from someone with high British leanings if there was no harp on it. I was always told a St. Patrick's flag without the harp is nothing more than a f***ing union jack without the blue.






I however chose to simply fly this flag

[MrBenchley]

39. The Confederate Flag was also all but forgotten

until the civil rights movement began...when it was dredged up as a symnbol of white supremacy....

[W_HAMILTON]

46. It's basically an "accepted" form of bigotry..

Hateful people go as far as they are allowed.

Bigots will spew hate towards gay people now because it's "accepted." They can get away with doing it in public. They can't really get away with insulting black people like that anymore, so they instead use stuff they can still get away with, ie this Confederate flag issue. If anyone questions them, they can just say they are showing appreciation for their heritage, when in fact most of the people who show this flag off couldn't even name one damn Confederate soldier, MAYBE save for Robert E. Lee.

I've lived in the South all my life, and I haven't seen anyone that doesn't fit into this criteria. I'm not going to say there aren't people out there that really do believe it is part of their heritage, but far and away most of them just use it as like a "wink-wink, nudge-nudge" way of showing their disdain for black people.

[MrBenchley]

47. Exactly so....

"most of them just use it as like a "wink-wink, nudge-nudge" way of showing their disdain for black people."
Right on the money.

[frankly_fedup2]

144. Are you kidding me? I have lived in the south all my life and you

are right about how the bigotry is still there; however, I also have friends that live in the North and in bigger cities and some of them don't even limit themselves as far as name calling is concerned. The races hate each other, albeit the Asians hate the blacks, the blacks hate the Whites and the Asians, the Whites hate everyone but other whites (not true but that is the way all of the other cultures as well as the Caucasians look at each other). Especially the Somalis (sp) that they are sending over so many a week or month. This is in Columbus. Look at the rioting they have had in Cincinnati.

What I hate the most is that if one say Asian person acted like they were prejudiced toward a white person, then automatically everyone is talking how ALL asians are bigots. Same with whites and blacks. One ignorant person can get a lot of people fired up (Louis Farrakhan) and then suddenly all of the Jews are out to get the Muslims and visa versa.

We will never have a society without some kind of bigotry, i.e. skin color, class bigotry, religious bigotry, sexual bigotry, I know there are a lot more but these are the ones that come to mind right now.

As far as "Justice" being blind . . . that is BS. "Justice" isn't blind and worst of all, she has her hand out. That has been my experience with the court system when my son got into some trouble. It's pathetic.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

59. Really?

I'm not sure about that. My mother was a transplanted southerner (I was raised in NJ) and she had a rebel battleflag framed in our hall. It belonged to her grandfather. This was many, many years before Civil Rights.

I'll be honest with you. "Racism" is a word I don't cotton to, no pun intended. I work and live with black folks and I have black family members. What I experience daily is people working together towards common goals. We have cultural differences, but we spend a lot of time exploring each other's worlds, attending parties, funerals, etc., and learning so much from each other. And we laugh. Or my, we laugh at ourselves and each other. The truth of the situation here is that the most crude "cracker" down here probably works with a whole LOT of black folks and believe me, he will try to get along with them. Yeah, he might spout the N word when he's together with his huntin' buddies, but he's not out riding with the Klan. In almost 30 years down here I have never heard of any Klan activity, parade, or anything similar. Maybe ole Bubba, who has been a drunk for years and sits on his front porch on County Road 12, flipping off anybody he thinks is not his kind, does his thing. But he is by far the exception...a loser without a job or hope for one, and not a working member of a very integrated society. I mean, geez..I have a black doctor, a black dentist, a black boss and black friends. I have next door neighbors who are black and so are two families across the street. And we survive somehow down here in the evil south, even though there are Klan members under every bush...or so we're told.

Now, I also have a lot of relatives way up north in PA who see five black individuals a year. And they have no appreciation for the black culture because they are not immersed in it like we are. And they are the first to assume that the south is all about racism and they don't know what they are talking about. It is an abstract concept to them. And they are the first ones to point the racism finger.

I don't want the flag flying over my state capital..because it isn't the state flag. But a lot of men died for that flag and that is very important to many people. Abraham Lincoln said that the only reason he signed the Emmanc. Proc. was to stop the war. He said if he could have done it without ending slavery he would in a minute. In other words, it was the union that was the most important to him. George Washington and Thomas Jefferson had slaves. Slaves helped build the north until slavery was abolished, and even then slavetraders often lived in the northern port towns. I don't think there is any civilization, past or present, without things to be ashamed of. God knows, our stars and stripes are covered with blood of innocent people.

Now, I am not going to dispute that there IS an element in the south that uses the Stars and Bars as an in-your-face proclamation. But there is more to it than that. It just isn't so simple.

[Taverner]

61. The South is not the same as the Confederate Flag Wavers

IN fact, I see more Confederate flags in Oregon than I ever did in the South. Most good Southerners have come to be ashamed of that part of their past, and seek healing.

However, the folks who do wave the flag are not honoring Southern heritage, but racism and the American Genocide.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

63. So really what we have established

is that there are two groups for whom the Stars and Bars have emotional significance. And one group is a bunch of fuktards.

That about right?

[Taverner]

66. Perhaps, but I still liken the act of waving the confederate flag

in honor of Southern Culture like waving the Nazi flag in honor of German Culture.

Honestly, someone needs to develop a better flag for Southern Culture.

[W_HAMILTON]

69. It's called the American flag..

It strikes me as funny how alot of these people would argue that they have the right to respect their heritage, even if what they are respecting signifies one of the darkest moments in US history, a time when our nation literally was split in two.....

.......yet they'll tell you to your face you are being unpatriotic if you dare to question anything this president does.


Wear a Confederate flag bumper sticker on the back of your pickup? Good times, we're just honoring our heritage!

Question this administration? Bad, you evil traitor!

Just more idiotic hypocrisy from Republican types I guess...

[TallahasseeGrannie]

93. It has kind of turnd upside down

hasn't it? You would think a culture that wants to wag its flag would still have some major differences with the federal government. But most of them love GWB.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

70. That's a great idea

it could incorporate stars and bars, but have other symbols. Well...actually most of the state flags do that.

One other point about the south and the flag representing slavery, remember there were a whole lot of southerners who didn't own slaves. I have a whole passel of southern folks on my maternal side and only one of the branches had enough to own slaves. The rest were Florida dirt farmers.

[Taverner]

72. Personally I think Georgia's flag should have some nod to all the bands

That came from there...REM, B-52s...etc....

[Charlie Brown]

73. Don't forget the Indigo Girls n/t

[RagingInMiami]

91. And the Black Crowes

[RagingInMiami]

90. More than 90 percent of southerners did not own slaves

[Beelzebud]

145. What percentage WERE slaves?

[RagingInMiami]

171. Good question and I don't know

[Yupster]

177. Hope this helps

According to the 1860 Census, the eleven states which would become the Confederacy contained 9,101,090 people.

Of this number 5,447,220 were whites. That was 59.9 % of the total.

3,521,110 were slaves. That was 38.7 % of the total.

132,760 were free blacks. That was 1.5 % of the total.


Of the 5.5 million white men, women and children, it's thought there were about 1 million men physically fit enough to serve in the Confederate armed forces. About 750,000 of them did serve or about 75 % of the total adult male population. Of the 750,000, about 250,000 were killed and 250,000 were wounded. They fought until there was no one left to put into the battle lines.

The population of the states which remained in the union was right at about 22 million. Of that num ber there were about 429,000 slaves.

The states with the highest slave populations were
Virginia 490,000
Georgia 462,000
Mississippi 436,000
Alabama 435,000
S Carolina 402,000

The states with the highest free black populations were
Maryland 83,000
Virginia 58,000
N Carolina 30,000
Delaware 19,000
Louisiana 18,000

It's thought the number of free blacks reported was slightly lower than real as it was common especially in Virginia for free blacks to buy their relatives' freedom one after another. Researchers have found that it could take years or never that the records were ever changed at the courthouses though. That's a minor point though. It might have moved the free black number to 2 perent instead of 1.5 % and the difference would be mostly small children of free blacks who had been bought by their parents but the courthouse records still showed them as slaves.

There were two states, South Carolina and Mississippi that the majority of the state's population was slave.

With just 140,000 people, Florida was much, much smaller than any of the other Confederate states population wise. Still, while it needed men to defend its long coastlines, Florida still provided an entire brigade of three regiments that fought with the Army of Northern Virginia and was in the thick of the fighting at Gettysburg.

For those who don't know, the Army of Northern Virginia at Gettysburg was made up of three corps of three divisions each. Each division had between 4-5 brigades (Pickett's division only had three of its five brigades there at the battle with one guarding the trains and one left in Virginia) and each brigade was made up of from 3-6 regiments. A brigade should have had about 2,000 men, but there was no telling in Lee's Army as the numbers were very fluid. The whole army was about 75,000 at Gettysburg and was about one out of ten men in the entire Confederacy there with Lee in Pennsylvania.

[NuttyFluffers]

121. i think the souther culture flag should be a cozy looking front porch

and nice tall glasses of tea and lemonade next to some inviting chairs on the porch. don't have anyone sitting in the chairs in the front porch, just nice empty chairs with welcoming tea and lemonade. oh, and a shady tree nearby, willow, magnolia, doesn't matter, let it be each southern state's own state tree. hell, it'd be a nifty way for people to remember their state trees and stuff. speaks for all the values that want to be remembered, on all sides of the racial spectrum, about the hospitality of the south.

[Virginian]

150. Thanks, You said it about right in all your above posts, TallahassGran.

I personally would not touch the Stars and Bars with a ten foot pole, but I can understand why some call it heritage. They don't seem to realize that because the symbol of the South during that war, has been adopted by the hate groups it has come to represent the hate groups more than the heritage groups. It can have a proper place as with reenactments or memorials, but not as an everyday banner.

If I remember my family history correctly, my linear ancestor who fought in that war was defending his home and family from the armies marching on Petersburg. He was captured and spent the rest of the war in a union prison camp in City Point, not far away. His family didn't own anybody, they couldn't even afford a mule or horse for transportation much less a human servant.

Most people in the South were NOT slave owners contrary to the misconceptions spread by Hollywood. We were like a third world country with a great chasm between the rich and the poor. There were middle class business owners, but the working class, middle class didn't come until later.

When people cite the economic aspect in lieu of the slavery issue, they were tied together in the minds of the working class. Just as the working class today feels threatened by cheap foreign labor, the Southerners were afraid of competing with the freed slaves for the available jobs.

The previous slave owners made out OK with the abolition of slavery. They were no longer responsible for feeding and housing their workers. It was as if a business today could drop the health insurance and retirement plans on its employees. It was so much cheaper to pay a substandard wage and let the worker fend for himself than to make sure the worker was healthy and able to work. Labor was cheap. Someone else would take the job if a worker was too sick or malnourished to work.

The working class of either color had no rights. There were no labor laws in the mid and late 1800s. Virginia (and probably the other southern states) is a right to work state. Unions didn't pop up in the South, they were founded elsewhere and imported to some of the factories in Virginia.

I remember hearing of my great-aunts putting little confederate flags on the graves of their grandfather and other veterans on Confederate Veterans' Day, June 9. THAT is heritage, not hatred. I have watched these same old ladies (only one is left and she will be 98 this year) work side by side with people of any color. I watched them attend the same church they had always attended after the neighborhood changed and the church was more black than white. From what I could determine, they noticed the difference, but it didn't matter, people are people.

Did I mention that this family has voted Democratic ever since that war? Sure, there have been some defectors, but if the Democratic party remains the party of the common man, I hope they are smart enough to return some day. That is, unless a bunch of insensitive Dems call them racist and bigots just because of where they were born. People tend to not vote for people who insult them.


edited to acknowledge this is more than a two posts response

[MrBenchley]

76. Really....

"The dais in the ballroom of the Francis Marion was festooned with Confederate flags when Sen. John D. Long, who had sponsored resolutions that placed the flag over the House and Senate rostrums, warmed up the crowd: "Out of the dust and ashes of War with its attendant destruction and woe, came Reconstruction more insidious than war and equally evil in consequences, until the prostrate South staggered to her knees assisted by the original Ku Klux Klan and the Red Shirts who redeemed the South and restored her to her own."

Sen. Strom Thurmond, elected in 1956 on a staunch segregationist platform, and fresh from a run for president as a state's rights Dixiecrat, also spoke at the opening ceremony. He told the whites-only crowd that nowhere in the U.S. Constitution "does it hint a purpose to insure equality of man or things."

He said that the Founding Fathers created a republic rather that a democracy, "where everyone rules and majority rule is absolute." Thurmond warned the crowd that integration was a Communist plot designed to weaken America. "It has been revealed time and time again that advocacy by Communists of social equality among diverse races… is the surest method for the destruction of free governments.

"I am proud of the job that South Carolina is doing ," Thurmond said, "and I urge that we continue in this great tradition no matter how much outside agitation may be brought to bear on our people and our state." "

http://www.scpronet.com/point/9909/p04.html

[TallahasseeGrannie]

94. But hasn't it always been popular

in the South? Do you mean just country-wide, as a symbol for segregation? Because I will agree with that. There really wasn't much reason for an ant-integration symbols until the Civil Rights movement, I guess.

Interesting history...thanks for posting it.

[MrBenchley]

122. Not really...

It wasn't being waved around in the 1930s and 1940s....

The 1920s was the KKK's heyday....look at news photos of the period, and the flag they're marching with is the American flag, not the Confederate one,,,,,

[TallahasseeGrannie]

126. Something interesting I learned about the Klan

was that it was HUGE in New Jersey in those years! Go figure!

[MrBenchley]

127. It was huge pretty much everywhere in the 1920s....

when racism was not only open but acceptable....

"“Civilization’s going to pieces,” broke out Tom violently. “I’ve gotten to be a terrible pessimist about things. Have you read ‘The Rise of the Coloured Empires’ by this man Goddard?”
“Why no,” I answered, rather surprised by his tone.
“Well, it’s a fine book and everyone ought to read it. The idea is that if we don’t look out the white race will be – will be utterly submerged. It’s all scientific stuff; it’s been proved.”
“Tom’s getting very profound,” Daisy said with an expression of unthoughtful sadness. “He reads deep books with long words in them. What was that word we—"
“Well, these books are all scientific,” insisted Tom, glancing at her impatiently. “This fellow has worked out the whole thing. It’s up to us who are the dominant race to watch out or these other races will have control of things.”
“We’ve got to beat them down,” whispered Daisy, winking ferociously at the fervent sun."

--from The Great Gatsby, F. Scott Fitzgerald

[RagingInMiami]

88. Agreed

And I've met a lot of southerners who discriminate more against white northerners than they do black southerners.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

95. Oh yes indeed!

My dear departed southerner mother had an irrational "fear" for the Irish, Italians and Poles.

[Gormy Cuss]

147. Memory of the KKK marching was one of my grandmother's earliest memories

It was in Portland,Maine in a neighborhood on the waterfront where Gaelic was spoken just as readily as English. The KKKers were afraid of all those Catholics.

How cool that your family has a Civil War flag.

[Lindacooks]

159. BINGO!!

This is the point that proves that the flag is racist. Where was the 'longing for heritage' until it was needed as a symbol of suppression and bigotry?

[cushla_machree]

174. thats my problem

It was dug up for that purpose. Its not flown for historical purposes. How many black people have the stars and bars proudly displayed?

When i see it on a bumper or flag, i instently know i bigot when i see one. I have no problem with the flag, but flying it at state capitols is completely insenstive.

[Virginia Dare]

43. Don't judge 19th Century people with 21st Century logic..

it will never work. I'm not arguing that the Confederate flag should be respected or revered or any of that nonsense, but this is something that I've struggled with for a while, having ancestors who fought for the CSA. I've read many diaries and memoirs of the people on both sides, both civilian and soldier. What I have learned is that for the Southerners, they felt they were fighting against tyranny, and the threat to their liberty and in a way, they had a point. Very few of the Union soldiers were fighting to free the slaves, they were fighting to keep the country together, and thank God they did. We have the benefit of hindsight...always beneficial.

[Taverner]

49. Well just like I wouldn't ever bash the troops fighting in Iraq today

I wouldn't bash soldiers who volunteered or were conscripted (as many were) into service.

But the flag itself....is a different story...

[ieoeja]

54. The tyranny of the SOUTH?

See post #53.

[Beelzebud]

143. See a history book. Southern Tyranny is called SLAVERY.

[panzerfaust]

68. they were fighting against tyranny, and the threat to their liberty

Unless, of course, they were blacks owned, like any other farm animal, by these sons of liberty.

My folks fought on both sides too. Some of my ancestors owned slaves, likely - given the culture - some of them likely were slaves.

Same in WW1 and WW2: I had family on both sides, and, likely, some in the concentration camps.

Slavery was wrong: and that is, in fact, what the Confederacy was fighting to protect.

King Cotton.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

96. Very wise point

it is all about perspective. Times change, morals change.

[Yupster]

98. That's called the "sin of presentism"

Judging people in the past by the standards of todays. It's something that historians are trained to watch out for because it's easy to do.

[panzerfaust]

50. Robert E. Lee

The United States Army has a series of paintings honoring the values of a warrior. Oddly, one of these is of Robert E Lee. I cannot recall which particular value or virtue he was chosen to represent, but I believe that it was "Duty."

As in it was his "duty" to violate his oath and commission as an officer and a gentleman in the United States Army and wage civil war against the United States?

Lee was a good general, was a warrior, was well respected by his men. Because of this the US Civil War lasted at least two years longer than if he had never lived, four years longer than if he had not been a traitor.

In retrospect, except for freeing the slaves (not one of the original aims), the Civil War was a complete mistake. The free states should have simply let the South go. The United States of America would likely be better off today. Most likely the Confederate States of America would have had to have recognized the freedom of the slaves in short order anyhow.

At this point, I think that now the “Blue States” should secede. Leave the “Red States” to their bible thumping wars and heartless bigotry.

Please don't bother to flame me on this. I was born in, and live in, Texas. Not the “Heart 'O the South” but a racist state none-the-less: I well recall the “Men, Women, Colored” restrooms of my childhood. A state that proudly fought for the “Stars & Bars.” I recall my aunt canceled Time Magazine after she saw a black man on the cover. Progressive sort of place, Texas and the rest of the Old Confederacy. A place where yesterday is valued and the main hope is that it will come again. “The South Will Rise Again” ... my grandpa used to say. Seems to be coming true now.

As far as Texas, bear in mind that the main reason the Texicans revolted against the Mexicans in the first place was – Freedom, Davy Crockett, Santa Anna and the Alamo non-withstanding - because Mexico had outlawed slavery. Texans wanted to keep theirs. Had paid good money for 'em.

Wish I was in the land 'o cotton, ole times there ...

[mdmc]

52. harsh

I didn't know that about texas..

[panzerfaust]

74. Texas is a harsh land.

Hard on horses and women, the early anglo settlers noted - and perhaps in that order of concern.

Sadly, most of the histories of the Texas War for Independence sort of leave out selected parts of why we revolted against the Mexican Government.

Still, the reasons for the war does not detract from the heroism shown at the battle of Mission San Antonio de Valero (The Alamo). Although I note, now that Hispanics are the in majority in San Antone, the Mexican Army is not treated as disparagingly as when I was a kid.

There were heroes on both sides.

Just as in all wars.

[Taverner]

58. Personally, I think reconstruction failed

Mainly because of racist whites in the North.

Reconstruction should have been a healing - instead it just bred more anger.

If they were serious about reconstruction, the Union Army should have publically executed Nathan Bedford Forrest and all of his Klan, and anyone who dared join the Klan.

Harsh, but remember the Klan was, and is a terrorist organization that makes Al Queda look like a book club in comparison.

[Charlie Brown]

55. I don't see how people who simply want to respect their ancestors

can be arbitrarily labeled pro-slavery and racist. It's just the way people want to pay respect to a part of history.

"Traitors" or not, the flag represents a part of the past, and many Southerners believe it's respectful to their heritage to fly it. Many do fly it for racist reasons, but hardly all.

No one's demanding that you fly the flag. Let it go.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

57. It Is Their Heritage, But Their Heritage Was Condoning Slavery And Denying

civil rights.

If they are proud of that heritage, than they have a right to declare it. We, though, have the right to call them close-minded ignorant bigots as well though. Technically, they do have a right to be proud of their heritage in spite of it being a disgraceful one in our opinion and one we disagree with. I'm just amazed that in this day and age so many still take pride in bigotry, but to each their own.

[mdmc]

113. that is the American heritage, if you are a Cherokee

The USA is built on the holocaust of native americans. One of my own ancestors, Nathanial Gist, actually lived with indians for a brief time.

[TNDemo]

71. Treason? Hmm. Isn't that how our country got started?

It was honorable according to the American history books.

[Uncle Roy]

80. Old Yankee here: 13 colonies SECEDED from Britain in 1776

and 13 southern states SECEDED from the USA in 1861.

I agree with you. I've never been able to figure out why the first one was good and the second one was bad. People come first, not governments. People should be able to choose their own form of government.

If a country decides to break up into two or more smaller countries, this isn't the end of the world. Ask the people who used to live in Czechoslovakia, and now live in either the Czech Republic or Slovakia. They decided to split up, and they did so like intelligent adults.

[Yupster]

99. Especially confusing when you think about Texas

Texas went from Mexican, to the Republic of Texas, to the USA, to the Confederacy and back to a US state in less than 30 years.

The people voted by popular election to dissolve the Republic of Texas and join the US. Then they voted by popular vote to leave the US and join the Confederacy less than 15 years later.

And out of all those changes, they were traitors for joining the Confederacy.

They thought they were just exercising their democratic right to choose a government through the consent of the governed. But then they were traitors. Who knew?

[SemiCharmedQuark]

117. See, the colonies never ratified the British form of government.

The South had delegates who agreed on a form of government that they signed and ratified in the form of the U.S. Constitution. There is a difference.

[Odin2005]

77. The Stars and Bars not only sybolizes slavery...

...it symbolizes treason.

[Yupster]

101. That treason charge is starting to bug me

Treason is maybe the most serious charge a person can be accused of.

In a lot of ways, calling someone a traitor is worse than a murderer. You sure wouldn't want to call someone a murderer without him being convicted of such in a trial. Or I sure wouldn't think you would anyway.

But back to the Civil War.

After the war, President Davis and General Lee were each indicted for treason.

Davis hired a high-powered group of northern lawyers who were abolitionists to defend him. Money was no object as Cornelius Vanderbilt and Horace Greeley, also abolitionists were paying for his defense.

His defense was a simple one. Since secession was Constitutional, the southern states had every legal right to leave the union. They did it by a vote of the people or by a vote of their state legislatures which was the same way they joined the USA originally.

Therefore Davis could not be a traitor.

Davis demanded a speedy and public trial where he could prove his innocence.

The man who was president when Davis was indicted was Andrew Johnson. Davis and Johnson knew each other for decades before the war and hated each other with a passion. When Davis found out about Lincoln's assasination, he was aghast because he knew Johnson would be a hard enemy of the south.

Anyway, back to the trial. It never happened. The government kept delaying it and delaying it and delaying it until it was years after the war. You see there was a problem.

The Constitution was silent on the rights of secession. It was clear from the original debates on whether the Constitution would be ratified by the states that they thought they would have the right to leave if things didn't work out. The Constitution was a difficult debate to get passed among the states as it was. If states thought they were making a permanent decision, there's no way it would have ever been ratified.

But back to the tial. Davis was in prison and he was demanding his trial so he could prove he wasn't a traitor. The government continued refusing to try him.

The problem was that what if the issue got all the way to the Supreme Court, and what if the court ruled that secession was legal? Then what?

Was the army supposed to leave the south, apologize and put Davis back in power?

There was no need to ever put that to a test.

So the government just left Davis indicted. Eventually he was given bail and Vanderbilt and Greeley paid for his release until trial which never happened, and Davis never did get his Constitutionally guaranteed right to a "speedy and public" trial.

So we have a guy indicted for a horrible crime who is refused a trial where he could prove his innocence, and now people 150 years later are declaring him guilty on the internet.

What the $%$##% kind of a progressive value is that?

What if you were indicted for sexually abusing five young girls. Front page news and all over town. You say that you look forward to your trial so that you can prove your innocence.

The county never tries you. They just leave you indicted forever and every once in a while the district attorney has a quote in the paper about that "well known child molestor Odin2005." You think that would be okay?

I'd prefer not to declare people guilty without trial especially if they begged for a trial and were denied one. Maybe that's just me.

[mitchum]

79. Only the delusional

[JVS]

81. AMEN!

[Rowdyboy]

82. I live in central Mississippi and see fewer than 2 or 3 a month......

including bumperstickers. Many of the people with those bumperstickers are not so much bigots and racists as they are very young and very ignorant. They're not evil, they're not even particularly mean-they're young kids adopting a "rebel" pose who simply need educating.

There are too many serious issues to worry about in Mississippi (like unfed children and pathetic schools)to waste much time worrying about the state flag and what it stood for in 1861...

[Maddy McCall]

125. Ditto, except I'm in south Mississippi.

[Uncle Roy]

83. "If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it"

"My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that."

- Abe Lincoln, 1862

Arguments about the Civil War frequently mix up the slavery issue with the secession issue. It helps if you keep them separate.

[iamthebandfanman]

86. indeed

lincoln hesitated to even free slaves from my understanding.
did't he ultimately do it so that freed slaves could fight in the war ?
seems to me i heard that on the history channel, i might be mistaken.
correct me if not please

[Uncle Roy]

103. The Emancipation Proclamation did NOT apply to the Union slave states

of Delaware, Maryland, Kentucky, and Missouri, and it did NOT free the slaves in those parts of the Confederacy that the Union already controlled. It ONLY "freed the slaves" in those Confederate states that were still fighting against the Union on January 1, 1863, and as a practical matter, even those slaves weren't really freed until the Union Army took control of the area they were living in. Then they were free to join the army, if they wanted to, and many of them did.

The National Archives has a good article here:
http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/featured_documents/emancipation_proclamation/

Complete text here:
http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/featured_documents/emancipation_proclamation/transcript.html

[SaveElmer]

140. Technically this is true...

It is all Lincoln felt he legally could do...but he was well aware, as were abolitionist leaders, and leaders of free blacks that this meant the end of slavery everywhere. A reunified union where only three states could legally hold slaves would have been untenable...and they knew it!

[SaveElmer]

139. He did it as a war measure...

To weaken the south and strengthen the north. He had also been rethinking his position on the place of blacks in society, and was beginning to see the war not only to preserve the union, but as a fight for freedom. He abandonded earlier notions of recolonization etc, and after Fort Wagner, began to more assertively defend a more prominent role for blacks after the war. At the end he advocated suffrage for educated blacks and those that served in the army.

Like ant great man, he learned to overcome his initial prejudices and to accept the necessity of doing the right thing.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

116. Why don't you print the whole thing, not just the part that is handy ?

Also, why don't you post the articles of secession. The South knew what they were fighting for, even if you don't.

[theHandpuppet]

84. Sure it's heritage

If you happen to think the only heritage of the South is a white one. Funny how the "heritage" of the South never seems to include the four million black slaves.

[iamthebandfanman]

85. well i think i see both sides

I can definitely understand why people are offended by it, because of what the confederacy itself stood for, but its really hard to say they cant have their dumb flag, its kinda part of the whole freedom thing.
also, it should be known that alot of white folk were to poor to own a slave in the south.
so, its not like everyone was fighting for slavery per say.

i know that'll make people angry by me saying that, but ive found from the reading ive done on the civil war that this is to be true(unless the writers were somehow bias).


what REALLY erks me tho are people from above the mason-dixon line flying them. i mean, thats just blatant racism in my opinion. Why would some one in say, ohio or...pennsylvania... want to fly a confederate flag?
at least if you live in the south you have A LITTLE validity behind it by proclaiming heritage.
people amaze me.

[AX10]

87. Confederate Flag "Rag" = Toilet Paper.

[yellowdogmi]

89. The south's going to do it again.

I just got done reading "Confederates in the Attic" it tries to answer that exact question. It is a complex and divisive issue. Tony Horwitz tries to explain that there is a lot of ignorance concerning what the confederacy stood for. Many support the flag because they like the idea of being a maverick/rebel type person. For some it is just a fashion statement. There is a small portion that attach racial connotations to the confederate flag. In short there is myriad of reasons. Being a damn yank I don't have a dog in this hunt. I think it is a no win for the dems to take up. Plus once you start banning items where do we stop? I think anyone with taste and decorum would have to be aware of the issues surronding the flag. Anyone that wasn't aware probably isn't going to listen to reasoned argument anyway.



Editted: To fix the Authors name. oops!

[AndyTiedye]

107. The South Already Did It Again, And This Time They Won

They're running the country now, in case you hadn't noticed.


(I'm not out to ban the Confederate flag, and neither is anybody else.
This forum is far more likely to be banned than the Confederate flag).

[leftofthedial]

92. Well, me for one. But I'm not in my right f'n mind.

I would argue that your last sentence is non sequitor.

[Skittles]

109. you are correct, Taverner

that piece of SHIT flag is a f***ing DISGRACE

[SemiCharmedQuark]

115. Someone who never read the Articles of Secession?

:shrug:

[dorkulon]

120. People who are still hanging effigies...

...of Abe Lincoln.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x533934

[Virginian]

152. Reconstruction would have been better with Lincoln.

Johnson, even though he was born in the South was no friend of the South.
Perhaps if Lincoln had lived to oversee reconstruction, the nation wouldn't be so red and blue today.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

124. Symbols are not interpreted the same by everyone

Those that want to see the flag as a symbol of racism will continue to do so.

Those that want to see the flag as a symbol of their heritage will continue to do so.

Let's all bang our heads and demand that we are right. That will solve the problem.

[jeffrey_X]

128. Interesting article from Tim Wise on the subject at hand....

http://www.lipmagazine.org/~timwise/rebelsclue2.html


Here's a little experiment, in two parts.

First, pick a white person, pretty much any white person; then go up to them and mention the subject of slavery, and its consequences for blacks in the United States. Then pull out a stopwatch and time how long it takes for them to say something to the effect of, "All that was a long time ago. Why can't we leave the past in the past and move on?"

And here's the second part: come and spend a little time in my neck of the woods -- the American South -- and watch how long it takes for you to spot someone waving, wearing, or otherwise displaying (perhaps on their car) a confederate flag.** Now, having seen several, go up to their respective owners and tell them, "All that was a long time ago. Why can't you leave the past in the past and move on?"

And as they look at you blankly, or even angrily, and perhaps call you a Yankee or some such thing that they consider the vilest of slurs, ask them about slavery, and watch how quickly they turn to the very same "all that was in the past" line you just used on them--not realizing the irony, which was, after all, the point of this experiment in the first place.

You see, white Southerners (and, truth be told, whites generally in the U.S.) love to live in the past, so long as it's a past that makes us feel good and venerates us as heroes. So whether its waxing emotional about the greatness of our founding fathers, or waving an American flag on Independence Day, or prattling on about some ancestor who died in battle at Gettysburg, the point is the same: to lift up the past and to remain stuck there, at least for a while. But let anyone suggest the less noble side of that same past and watch how quickly history gets relegated to the ashbin of the irrelevant.
<snip>

[Toots]

129. While I agree with you to an extent the flag of the USA is the same

A flag of Traitors. Of people that took up arms against their country and committed treason. In fact many of our Heroes were hung for treason. "I Regret I have but one life to give for my country" Patrick Henry. Those were different times as were the Civil War days but in todays world the only possible reason to fly the confederate Flag is to cause insult and injury. If that is the Heritage one wishes to claim then have at it..

[Yupster]

130. "the only possible reason"

So if a chapter of the Sons of Confederate Veterans near a major battlefield takes on the task of tending to the 150 year old graves, and they have a Starry Cross, you'd say the only reason they had it was to cause insult and injury?

You wouldn't really think that would you?

[Bandit]

163. No I don't and I guess I misspoke

But most people displaying the Stars and Bars are not doing a reenactment of any sort. They are doing it to show they are rebellious and could care less if they insult people or not and in fact probably relish in the fact that they do indeed insult.

[malmapus]

131. I would argue that it is

Normally I haven't touched anything with the Confederate Battle Flag or the Stars n Bars debates. But I'm getting tired of it coming up.

My family back then were poor Welsh farmers making a living in Georgia. They had no slaves, weren't fighting to keep slaves. They fought to protect their home and family. We're lucky to have letters that one of six brothers from one side wrote home, he never mentions how great it is to be fighting to keep slavery (only mentions slaves once about building the defenses for Atlanta). From this one family, six sons went off to fight for their home / state, only two made it back. The one who wrote home to his parents, had to bury three of his brothers himself and write back to let the family know. In fact one of his letters he told his mom not to worry about making a heavy woolen coat for winter because he didn't think he would live long enough to see it.

It's from that, I say the flag is my heriatge, because my family fought and died under it.

[Minnesota Libra]

149. Your situation is why I DON'T think the confederate flag should.....

.....be destroyed or gotten rid of. As you rightly point out not everyone was into slaves.

[theHandpuppet]

132. The forgotten side of "Southern Heritage"

In case anyone's interested: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x537347

[MadHound]

133. There is only one appropriate place to fly a Confederate flag

And that is over a cemetary of Confederate vetrans.

Anything else is just putting racism, bigotry and hate on display.

[frankly_fedup2]

134. It wasn't just VA was it? I think there were other states like the

Carolinas and some other ones (could look it up but cannot take the time right now and plus, this is just my opinion).

I feel it is a flag that is from a bad time in our country. The country was divided over a lot of things and the sounthern states wanted to separate from the rest of the U.S. and Lincoln wouldn't have any of it. He even asked Robert E Lee to lead the Union Troops. Lee, reportedly told the president that Virginia was his home and he could not fight against it. Then I suppose Lincoln got Grant.

From one of those CSPAN Book specials, a man was reading in the old papers after Lincoln was assasinated. Pretty much every "comment" all across the country was, basically, the SOB deserved it and wish someone had done it sooner.

Just think in 100 years, * may be considered the best president we've ever had.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

167. Considering Lincoln's Funeral was one of the biggest events in U.S.history

The thousands of people that turned out...I'd say, that 1.) That CSPAN book special was full of shit. and 2.) No, Bush will not be considered the best president we ever had.

I suggest you look up the North's attitudes towards the Lincoln assassination for yourself rather than relying on "some CSPAN book special". Surely, some of the pro-confederate papers had the "he deserved it attitude", but not as many as you'd think since it was pretty clear who would win. Secondly, the North certainly didn't have that attitude in general. So I have no idea where you pulled the "across the country" from.

Also, please read the Articles of Secession and see for yourself why the South felt it had to secede.

[Yupster]

172. "Then I suppose Lincoln got Grant"

Actually, then Lincoln got McDowell, then McClellan, then Pope, then McClellan again, then Burnside, then Hooker, then Meade, then Grant. He found himself a winner in Grant.

[izzybeans]

137. It's the cousin of the swastika in my mind

Others will disagree but whatever...

[Minnesota Libra]

138. Here we go with the Confederate flag thing again, must be a slow day.....

......all I can say to all of this is "get over it, that was then and this is now". :eyes: There are much bigger issues to deal with these days.

edited to add: If you need to get some tension out have fun flaming me.

[Beelzebud]

142. I would be EMBARRASSED if my state flew that disgrace.

slavery and treason

Great heritage you have going there.

And enough with the fucking White Wash that says the south was against slavery. That shit might work with the freepers, but it won't work with me. Yeah the south wanted to end slavery so bad that they kept the blacks segregated until the 60's.

Fuck the south.

[Virginian]

154. Thank you.

We in the South will consider ourselves Fucked.

There were some Blue counties in this Red state, but at your direction, we see how the Democrats think of us so we are now solidly Red. :sarcasm:

Sorry Bub, you don't carry that much weight, but your attitude could.

[Brewman_Jax]

146. Declarations of Secession

and other messages and papers of the Confederacy are found here http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/csa/csapage.htm

Read why they fought in their words.

[TNDemo]

151. Man, no wonder we had a civil war.

We can't even discuss what happened in history 145 years ago without absolutely going ballistic. If emotions are this high over something that happened that long ago, it was definitely a powderkeg that was destined to blow.

[ReadTomPaine]

161. Well, it seems quite a bit of that powder...

is still dry.

[stevietheman]

155. Well, a heritage can be negative, and history cannot be denied.

Like it or not, the Confederate flag is a historical symbol, and to take it out of view entirely for fear of offense is anti-historical.

But that doesn't mean that we can't despise that flag for what it stood for... of course, we can.

[VOX]

157. Author Shelby Foote had it right: What was once a symbol of valor...

(for many Southerners) was transformed into a racist symbol in the 1950s and 60s by what he termed "yahoos."

In 1970 he wrote of the Klansmen who had appropriated the flag: “I tell them to their faces that they are the scum who have degraded the Confederate flag, converted it from a symbol of honor into a banner of shame, covered it with obscenities like a roadhouse men’s room wall.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/28/AR2005062800723_2.html
Washington Post
June 29, 2005
Shelby Foote Dies; Novelist And Historian Of Civil War
<snip>
Entering the debate over the Confederate battle flag, he denounced the "knotheads down home -- the Ku Kluxers and the rest of them" who "misused" its significance. He added: "I know that flag really pains black people. It was used against them in a dastardly way, and they hate it. And I understand their hating it..."
<snip>

[Ladyhawk]

158. A discount store here in my little redneck town has been displaying

a big confederate flag blanket for the past couple of months. Every time I drive past the store I just shake my head.

When I was younger, I bought both an American flag and a Confederate flag to display in my dorm room. I thought of it as representing the Civil War. Even then, I was on the side of the North, but I didn't see any harm in displaying a Confederate flag. I wasn't aware of the baggage because, hey, they were all over the place near DC, especially in little shops near Gettysburg and other battlefields. *shrug*.

I should scan and post a pic of myself holding a gun and a Confederate flag. I really didn't know what I was doing. I was more naive than hateful, I think.

[Virginian]

160. Rove could never hope for a topic more divisive.

If some of you don't quit buying into the stereotype of the bigoted Southerner, we will never take back the South. Insulting an entire region is no way to win their votes.

The South is just like every other region of this country. We have bigots everywhere, not just below the Mason Dixon line.

We have fine people everywhere, too. That is not a regional thing, either.

Quit trying to find people to hate and this nation may vote for the right candidate next time. A condescending attitude loses the election.

We are the big tent. We have all kinds. Learn to respect others so we can all get along. Consider "hate" the property of the other party. Don't take what is not yours.

[CTLawGuy]

162. if a researcher finds a cluster of cancer citings in one area

should he think nothing of it, because there is cancer everywhere?

yes, we want the South to vote for us, but that doesn't mean ignoring the history of the political and social establishment of the South fighting racial and social progress at every turn for over 100 years after the end of slavery.

THe South, more than any other region has had problems with racial integration and equality, and the confederate flag symbolizes their refusal to progress.

[Virginian]

179. Thank you for the insult.

Turning up your nose at us and adhering to Hollywood stereotypes is not going to bring this country together.
Yes, the South, more than any other region, has had a dual population. That is why we need to work harder on race relations. Because of state laws, schools were segregated until 1964. Integration was a big turning point. Most of the people here have worked out our problems, and continue to work on them. Things aren't perfect as they are in your region of the country, where ever that might be, but for the most part, we get along.
We still have some high school dropout rednecks who, like you, know everything there is to know. Those are the ones who like to wave the Stars and Bars and try to find someone to be superior to.
Most decent people don't want to have anything to do with them or with that flag, but don't let me destroy your image of us. You just keep on with your regional discrimination. We expect it from you. That's one of those things we love about you, how superior you are to us. Please feel free to tell us how to act and think and what to have for dinner. We could never figure that out for ourselves. We are far too stupid for that. :sarcasm:

Virginia is notable as a Southern state because so many Civil War battles were fought here, but it is not in the Deep South. I do not live in a black and white town, this area is about as diverse in races, nationalities and religions as just about any place in the world. The elementary school near me needs translators for seven different languages for parent teacher conferences, only two of them are European languages.
I ran across one of your confederate flag wavers last month when I monitored an election. He was the token Republican poll worker at a precinct that went 85% for the Dem candidate. I was so astonished this cave man still existed that I felt like I needed to study him to see why he was so primitive. I hadn't encountered anything like him in years.

[CTLawGuy]

180. Hollywood stereotypes?

I know not every southerner is a bad person, just like not every Republican I know is a bad person.

I am taking a constitutional law class and we just studied the 14th Amendment and civil rights cases.

The south's resistance to civil rights was not Hollywood exaggeration but was real. The confederate flag symbolized firstly a banner under which a group of people tried to break away from the US rather than, in part, giving up their slaves.

Then it came to symbolize opposition to civil rights when it resurfaced in the 60s.

That flag is tarred with both those meanings, and there's nothing anyone can really do about it.

[Virginian]

181. That is your Hollywood stereotype in your own words.

a banner under which a group of people tried to break away from the US rather than, in part, giving up their slaves.

Your statement reads like you believe "Everyone in the South was a Slave Owner."

Ask your instructor just how many slave owners there were and what percentage of the white population owned people. Slave ownership was concentrated in a very small percentage of only the wealthiest families. Some of these slave holders owned multiple real properties, distributing their wealth over several states.

These agra-businesses were similar to the large corporations of today in that their owners had unfair influence over their politicians. The common man in the South really had very little say in how he was governed. A woman having a say -- we were all still chattel in those days. We had no rights at all.

I don't support the confederate flag, I said I didn't in my earlier post. I forfeited my right to it as heritage when a bunch of hot headed holier than thou people decided to adopt it as their hate emblem. I have no nostalgia for that era because, unless you had money, it was a very hard life.

Now, if you want to call someone a bigot, look at Senator George Allen. I am embarrassed that he is a Senator "representing" Virginia. He is not originally from Virginia so he could not argue that the confederate flag was a part of his heritage. As a lawyer, he displayed the flag in his office and as a high school kid in California, he had confederate flag decals on his car. Also as a kid in California, Allen tried to start a racial incident by writing graffiti on his own school to look like it had been written by the students from the predominately black school they were going to play in football that week. He was caught and his penalty was having to publicly apologize to the students of his own school. Supposedly he spelled the name of the other school incorrectly in his graffiti, so if he runs for president in '08, and allows questions from the audience, I would like to ask him to spell "Morningside."

[CTLawGuy]

182. I know not everyone in the south was a slave owner

but it wasn't like no one supported slavery except the elite, or that only elites were bigoted toward blacks.

Did the elite force MS, SC, AL, and LA to vote for Strom Thurmond for president in 1948?

Did the elite force AR, LA, MS, GA, and AL to vote for George Wallace?

How do you explain massive protests of integration, and church bombings in the south, and separate water fountains and separate waiting rooms? Is that all the elites' doing?


My grandmother's family is from GA (not particularly wealthy) and they owned one or two slaves alongside whom they worked. Am I proud of that? No. Am I proud that ancestors of mine fought for the South in the Civil War? not really. They're my ancestors, but I don't approve of their beliefs.

Along the same lines, I don't hold the problems of the South against you personally. I am happy there are progressive forces in the south, such as yourself, but you have to accept that the history of the South is not progressive, but say, there's nothing we can do but make our world better today. We shouldn't whitewash or excuse that history.

[Virginian]

184. Ok, now let's discuss

how we have treated our native population.

-- but not on this thread.

You have good arguments.

A lot of things have changed in my lifetime, I started my K-12 education in the segregated 1950s and graduated from an integrated high school. Integrated was better. One thing I learned in that span of time was that you really can't judge history through the ideals of today. Society changes. Taboos rise and fall.

I remember what it was like to have separate lunch counters and drinking fountains. We didn't know any one of any other race. The blacks we saw were working and identified by their vocation. I was taught to be respectful to Miss Jane the Smith's cleaning lady or Mr. Joseph the school janitor.
I, like any other child, did not question the way our society was set up until
I saw my first demonstration in the early 1960's. That was my first clue that "colored people" were not satisfied with their lot in life.
I moved to the Washington, DC suburbs during Camelot and became a fan of the Kennedy family. All of them. (I don't understand why people call Teddy a liberal, to me he is reasonable and logical.)
Anyway, schools became integrated around 1964. No one in my household made a big deal about it.
There was a lot to learn about getting along with people who are like you but not like you. At first we saw only the differences. About that time "colored people" became "blacks," Cassius Clay became Mohammed Ali and the Beatles toured America.
So much happened in those years, Reserection City and the March on Washington, Teddy Kennedy was in a plane crash, my friends, dating, school, clubs, parties. Ahh the music was sooo good even through our little transistor AM radios.
Time blurred between 1964 and 1968. Around Eastertime 1968, I believe it was a Thursday night, we heard MLK had been shot. Friday was not normal at school at all. Rumors, Rumors, Rumors. Anger, lots of anger. There were riots across the river in DC. Parts of DC were burning. Classes could not follow lesson plans. Teachers somehow managed to keep us in order and kept violence from erupting. Most kids left school early. When I look back, maybe I should have been scared, but I wasn't. I watched some of the funeral on our black and white TV, it made me sad like JFK's funeral in 1963. I had gone from seeing the differences to seeing the similarities. I had started evolving.

If attitudes evolve and mature this much in my lifetime I can only imagine how much they have changed in a century or two. You just can't look at history through today's values.

Oh, I wish I could tell you that my ancestors were abolitionists who ran an underground rail road, and saved enslaved people from their horrible living situations, but that isn't the truth. I accept them for whatever they were as they were products of their environment and were good people by the standards of their day. If they lived in today's society, they would probably think more like I do.

[riona]

164. confederate flag

it's a hurtful symbol to a large segment of our citizens and for good reason. that flag should not be flown.

[riona]

165. confederate flag

it's a hurtful symbol to a large segment of our citizens and for good reason. that flag should not be flown.

[hullbert]

175. Southerners are very strange about that war....

...as Shelby Foote once said. It really is hard to explain to those outside of the south. We grew up with stories about it-"Great Granddaddy Such and Such fought with Jackson at First Manassas" or "Great Great Uncle Such and Such was killed at Gettysburg." Most of the battlefields are in southerners backyards. The south, has also been historically a poorer place than many others in the country. So what you get is this mentality of "Well, I may be really poor, and my job sucks, but once upon a time the south had leaders like Robert E. Lee, and we whupped up on some yankees, and we were a place of chivalry, and ladies in hoop skirts, etc, etc. Also, and this should not be underestimated, because we lost, the Confederacy is like the ultimate "what if" scenario. It is easy to romanticize it because it only lasted for a short time-"The Lost Cause" rationale. It's also interesting because for many, remembrance of the Civil War has become this vicious cycle. Many southerners feel that the rest of the country looks down on them as ignorant hicks, so they cling tighter to those things that they consider unique to the south-thus causing many in the rest of the country to consider them ignorant hicks. For right or wrong, the Civil War was and still is a very personal issue for those in the south.

[Yupster]

178. It's been remembered so hard because

it was such a disaster for the region.

In most of our wars we've put 5-10 % of our adult male population in uniform and lost 1-2 % of them as casualties.

The Confederacy had 1 million adult men. They put 75 % of them into uniform and 250,000 of them were killed and 250,000 wounded.

Three out of four men fought.

Of the ones who fought one third were killed, one third were wounded and one third were neither.

Those are just devastating losses which took generations to ameliorate.

To make matters worse, the livestock was pretty much completely wiped out which to an agricultural society was devastating. The transportation system was completely ruined. Factories and cities were burnt.

People had their wealth in either Confederate currency or Confederate bonds both of which were made worthless overnight so everyone became destitute at once.

Add to this the fact that at the end of the war the southerners still felt they were right. They felt they had every right to form their own country as government's power came from the consent of the governed. So they felt like even though they were right they were beaten down anyway.

And they were beaten down. They fought until there weren't any men left to fight.

If the federal government was smarter they would have handled Reconstruction so much better and the world would have been a better place.

One thing that needed doing was to cash in the Confederate money for federal notes at some exchange rate so the entire population didn't become destitute and prey to the carpetbaggers who came down to steal their land for pennies.

Anyway, there are good reasons why the war was remembered with more passion in the south than in the north. It was fought there, they lost more, and they were left devastated and occupied by an enemy who they still thought was wrong.

[LanternWaste]

183. As per "Rise and Fall of the Great Powers" by P. Kennedy

As per Paul Kennedy's, "Rise and Fall of the Great Powers"...

The Civil War was the world's first (!) industrialized war AND the world's first (!!) "total" war. These two factors alone would explain a greater amount of casualties than in previous wars worldwide. Now, add to this te point that this first "industrialized, total-war" was fought with Napoleonic tactics on the battlefields and you have a recipe for death totals unheard of prior to '61.

[cynatnite]

185. No, that flag isn't saying you're okay with slavery...

People look at it with different perspectives and that's where you'll see varying reactions. I see it as a historical symbol, but don't consider it racist, divisive or anything else. It's a piece of history. That's it.

Many blacks view it one way, southerners another and so on.

It's all dependent on a person's point of view and I don't believe there is a right or a wrong to it.