I just spent a half hour talking to a former Gitmo guard....

[cdsilv]

...and it appears that according to him, things are less dire than we think they are.

He and his wife live in the apartment next to me.

I'm still digesting it, and will probably talk more with him over the next few days to get the whole story.

I'm just pursuing the truth.

I'm sick and tired of left and right distorting the truth!

I really think that like in 1994, we need to 'throw the bums out', we need a new crop of legislators and executives in Washington, D.C.

It's time for new blood.

Revolution.

[Warren DeMontague]

1. "like in 1994"?

1994 was an unmitigated fucking DISASTER for this nation.

Or perhaps you don't agree?

[cdsilv]

2. Oh yes, I agree....but perhaps a swing the other way??? n/t

[Warren DeMontague]

6. Gotcha. It's well past time. Clearly.

What I want is our party to get some traction. The GOP has given us more than enough ammo. Party of corruption, cronyism, greed and lies. If we can't win some elections now, we're in bad shape.

:)

[FloridaPat]

27. Why was it a disaster for the nation?

[greatauntoftriplets]

29. Democrats lost control of the House and Senate....

and we got Newt Gingrich as Speaker of the House.

[FloridaPat]

38. I was misreading it as 1944! Sorry. I was wondering why that date

so long ago.

[Warren DeMontague]

54. Yeah, that wouldn't make a whole lot of sense, now, would it...

:) :patriot: :)

[Warren DeMontague]

34. What?

The election of 1994?

[Avalux]

3. Please expound on your 1994 comment

Because as I recall, that 'revolution' gave us the worthless fucks in office now.

[jmowreader]

105. Call it a counterrevolution

At the beginning of 1994, the Democratic Party controlled both houses of Congress and the White House, and the Republicans thought that one-party rule was the worst thing in the world. They went into the election season selling this concept with the strangely-named Contract with America, which was actually a contract ON America. In December 1994, the Republicans were set to open Congress in January with a majority in both houses, and they chose Newt Gingrich, who is the last individual a Democrat would ever want running anything, as their leader and face-to-the-world.

It's the beginning of 2006. The Republican Party controls both houses of Congress and the White House, and it turns out that the Republicans were right--one-party rule is the worst thing in the world...if the Republicans are in charge.

If we do things right--and that's a massive "if"--we can flush the Republican majorities out of Congress and start working on George Bush.

[mdmc]

4. Thanks for the info...

still glad that I am not detained there.

[greatauntoftriplets]

5. How are "things less dire than we think they are"???

Please give us details.

i.e., are there human rights abuses or not?

And do you feel that this person is just covering his ass?

[pocket]

9. of course hes' covering his ass

rape and torture are war crimes!

[greatauntoftriplets]

10. Oh, I know that....

;)

[JWS]

49. Can you rule out the possibility that what he is saying is true?

Gitmo's a pretty big place after all and I doubt personnel have free reign over the entire base. I wouldn't say that this guy is covering his ass, necessarily, but that he didn't see any evidence of wrongdoing and possibly had a biased opinion to begin with.

[pocket]

55. Auschwitz was a big place too

some ppl just guarded the gate. just following orders.

[JWS]

124. Are you comparing Gitmo to Auschwitz?

Something tells me you aren't a concentration camp survivor. I think it is wholly offensive to start comparing every injustice that occurs to what happened in Nazi Germany.

First of all it lessens the impact of the holocaust, secondly it makes anyone on the other side of the aisle who is willing to listen immediately unwilling to do so.

It isn't just in this case but in most partisan issues.

I don't mean to offend you, but don't be lazy and make poor arguments, but think it through a bit and don't rely on inclusiveness fallacies.

[Pastiche423]

58. Yep, Gitmo's a pretty big place

where hundreds of human beings have been held for YEARS w/o charges, against the Geneva Convention !

The wrong doing is evident w/o seeing a single "enemy combatant".

[cdsilv]

12. He certainly could be.

...and probably is. I'm just trying to relay what the 'common' soldier is telling his neighbors and his wife.

Based on what he was saying to me, I think it might be true, or he may be parroting what his commanders told him to say.

Like I said, I plan to shoot the shit with him for awhile and see what the real story is.

IF you don't like the truth as told by soldiers, (and I don't know many that lie), ignore my posts about this.

Most of them are in their early 20's and have yet to learn to lie effecttively, unlike GWB who learned at his daddie's knee.

[bpilgrim]

13. lol

"IF you don't like the truth as told by soldiers, (and I don't know many that lie)"

sounds like you never served...

peace

[bryant69]

14. You're really laying it on thick

But we'll see what other information you pull out of your soldier buddy.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[greatauntoftriplets]

15. I talk to an ex-soldier every day and every night....

It took him a long time to tell me what really happened, because he had such difficulty talking about it.

[w8liftinglady]

76. I hear you...

I am actively looking for a support group for my son,when he is finally discharged...

[Pastiche423]

21. You don't know many soldiers that lie?

How old are you?

When you write next, please explain how holding hundreds of human beings w/o charges is not "dire".

Holy fuck! I can't believe you even typed that!

[laura888]

30. "Holding hundreds of human beings w/o charges"

AMEN to your post!

[cantstandbush]

131. "less dire" if you are not a prisoner there. n/t

[bpilgrim]

7. less dire for who?

the guards, the inmates... :shrug:

peace

[Webster Green]

8. They are being held without charges, counsel or trial...

That's plenty dire!

The anecdotal evidence suggests that a lot of these people were not even terrorists, or Al Qaeda fighters, but just got swept up or even sold by warlords.

[gimama]

57. thank YOU for sayin' it

I was once in a juvenile detention house,at 5-6 years old,for 1 day.
(to this day,I don't know why,maybe parents' law prob??)*
For most of that 1 day, I was left alone,locked in a metal cage. I cried for momma the whole time. Although grown-ups passed by,looking sideways at me,hours passed. Only 1 woman came out of her way to come speak to ME. I have no idea what was said, but I remember her HUMANITY,her kindness. Metal cage wall between us,SHE reached out. I BLESS HER, to this day.

At dusk,taken out of the metal cage for an hr.or 2 for other shocks to a little girl psyche,I was led outside,FINALLY,OUTSIDE! I joined a big circle of kids,sitting on the lawn of the facility,who were singing songs.
To this day,I have flashbacks when I hear "Take Me Out to the Ballgame". I was at some point taken out of the circle of singing kids,MY PARENTS picked me up,and took me home..but they wouldn't tell me WHY.*

I functioned really well,most of my adult life,but have dealt with Major Depression for the last 10 years.. But I have had so many 'triggers'in the past 6 years,I am either avoiding a flashback,having a flashback, or recovering from a flashback.

EVERY time I see gitmo detainees in those cages(It's the SAME freakin' metal grid.)it affects me. I lived alot of years without seeing that metal grid ANYwhere, these days it's very noticable to me. And when I see the prisoners,in a strange place, no understanding, no RIGHTS, no HOPE, it freaks me out.
It's like it's ME in there,and I had been INNOCENT, surely I can't assume the detainees are all guilty of..what? File some charges,somethin',that might hint of AMERICAN standards of basic Rights & Law. I KNOW I am my Brothers keeper, when I see the wrong being done by the guys doing all this.

PLEASE do not judge the Soldiers on the ground, altho not all are blameless,I'm disgusted with the scapegoating of Soldiers,when things are bad. ANY leader of any HONOR will take responsibility for what happens under THEIR watch. Hell's Bells! cnn showed Saddam at his trial, this week,saying HE was responsible for crimes he's charged with, not to try his fellow bad-guys he's on trial with. This is a LEADERSHIP ISSUE.


So when Rep.Duncan "2 kinds of fruit"hunter came out so strongly defending gitmo,it has sure brought up some issues for ME. I was traumatized FOR LIFE,because of 1 day,in some kind of juvy-gitmo in Southern California. I have been thru some amazing things,& no regrets,but I might have been more 'productive',if not for that 1 day.

2-kindsa-fruit needs to understand: holding detainees without counsel,charges, facts of what is going on, notifying family member,family communications, INDEFINITLY..all that IS cruel.
As a little girl in a metal cage,I just needed to know basic stuff: where am I, where's mom, and what's going to happen next??? THAT is TORTURE,whether it's a little kid in Cal, or an Arab dude in gitmo. Ain't AMERICAN,either.

Despite my difficulties,I get thru the panic attacks,& I am NOT afraid. I insist we call these guys on their awful,dreadful policies. I'm spilling my personal business here,just as an example of how the ripple effects of 1 day of this effected ME. Didn't mean to work out my stuff here, but maybe it can help someOne understand. We just can't treat People this way.

[DearAbby]

85. ((((((gimama))))))))

Your Story touched me, my heart aches for that little girl :hug: call it the grandma in me...You're Right...It is not AMERICAN to torture, to hold people indefinitely without due process. WE used to be the good guys...just why did we lose our way?

[gimama]

89. Thank YOU & feel this HUG :)

I FELT Yours!
We were DECEIVED,& busy raising OUR Families.
At least NOW we KNOW what's what,&
can work to Get OUR AMERICAN Values back.

and I can deal with anything,but I can NOT abide bein' lied to.
I WONT. ;}

[w8liftinglady]

88. there is a large communty of people who can relate...if you want links..

I can post it(I don't want to trigger)
Remember-we care,and you are loved.

[gimama]

95. I would REALLY appreciate it!

thank YOU. I'd mentioned somewhere earlier,that collecting links was a coping method of MINE. One of'em. :] Thank YOU,again!

[w8liftinglady]

99. I'll post them here,in case anyone else might need them,and PM you

http://gentletouchsweb.com/links/

These links relate to people who have suffered any number of traumas,with personal pages,medical pages,and support groups.I hope you can find peace.

[Webster Green]

111. "PLEASE do not judge the Soldiers on the ground, ...

...altho not all are blameless"

Yes, and thank you for your story. It's very moving.


I think Tom Robbins explains it very well here:

“When a man confines an animal in a cage, he assumes ownership of that animal, but an animal is an individual; it cannot be owned. When a man tries to own an individual, whether that individual be another man, an animal, or even a tree, he suffers the consequences of an unnatural act.”

“Have you ever watched visitors at a managerie or zoo – the fools they make of themselves, the way they leer and snigger and vex and demand entertainment and taunt? A caged beast, like an excess of alcohol, reduces man to his most banal dimensions. And he is only slightly better behaved when observing human inmates of prisons and institutions.”

“A creature, human or otherwise, that has had its freedom compromised, has been degraded. In a subconscious reaction that combines guilt, fear, and contempt, the keepers of the cage – even the observers of the caged – are degraded themselves. The cage is a double degrader. Any bar, whether concrete or intangible, that stands between a living thing and its liberty is a communicable perversity, dangerous to the sanity of everyone concerned.”

Tom Robbins
‘Another Roadside Attraction’
copyright 1971 Bantam Books

[Marie26]

114. It is cruel

Thanks for posting that. Most of the time we don't think about how the detention is hurting & damaging the prisoners psychologically, but your post really brought that home. :hug:

[BlackVelvet04]

11. What do you expect him to say?

I tortured prisoners for a living?

[cdsilv]

16. I'm just repeating what he said. That's all.

All I am saying is that MAYBE we, the US, have NOT pulled out fingernails, put electrodes to genitals, and done other unspeakable things to our prisoners.

Do the people on DU insist that our military has done this? How many of you have talked with individuals who have supposedly done these sort of things? I have talked to two of them.

They say that it did not happen. MAYBE they are lying. I do not think that they are. Check out my previous posts - I'm not a freeper, but I do believe in truth.

Good night, and good luck.

Dave.

[bpilgrim]

23. we got the videos and images to prove it, hello...

http://nobravery.cf.huffingtonpost.com

peace

[tnlefty]

52. Thanks for posting this video link.

When I get less sick feeling I'll pass it around to the locals who will be at our peace rally on 3/18.

[Solon]

24. Because we did that shit before, just a guess...

No offense, but, as far as the troops in Abu Graib, Gitmo, etc., I wouldn't want to live near them, I value my and my families's lives too much.

[gimama]

74. Say WHAT?? "THEY" ARE FAMILY

offense taken.
Soldiers taking orders are being scapegoated.
Where do You live that You think 'these' Soldiers aren't living?
Please value Your family by holding the LEADERSHIP accountable,
and we're ALL Family.

I gotta go breathe..

[Solon]

79. Soldiers are obligated, under current military codes to NOT follow...

orders that violate the Geneva Conventions nor their own USMJ codes. When they do both, the whole "I'm just following orders" excuse doesn't cut it. This is like asking if I want Ted Bundy to live next door to me, thanks but no thanks. These people, the ones who did the crimes, should do the time, from the commanders on down to the foot soldiers.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

83. I know someone who is to this day wracked with guilt for the

things he did as a "military advisor" in El Salvador in the 1980s.

[Marie26]

115. Just be glad you're not in their position. nt

[Karenina]

39. My first bit of unsolicited advice to you, cdsilv

is to grow a VERY THICK SKIN when posting on a public forum.

Second bit, inform yourself well.

"...MAYBE we, the US, have NOT pulled out fingernails, put electrodes to genitals, and done other unspeakable things to our prisoners."

There are no maybes about it, American troops have DONE ALL THAT and WORSE. It's a matter of public record. They have been used and abused to commit horrific acts against people whose only crime was being anywhere near them or abducted by them. They've been convinced of absurdities and commanded to commit atrocities. As they return and resettle into their communities it will become clear to you, as you're probably too young to remember Vietnam.

I have heard the wails of normal, everyday people receiving a cell phone call as I walk up the stairs to visit a neighbor. THEY are the victims of America's "foreign policies." It is FAR WORSE than you will ever hear in your controlled media or from those returning who are *under orders* to keep a lid on it. F-A-R. W-O-R-S-E.

[Swamp Rat]

40. Hey!

:hug:

[Karenina]

44. Na Du! Geht's Dir gut?

Hast Du endlich zu rechts gekommen mit dem NYC Bullen? ;-) :hug:

[Swamp Rat]

46. Traurig, Ich folge nicht Basketball.

:D

Ich bin mit irgendeinem DUers wütend. Sie sind in der Leugnung! Überprüfen Sie Ihr P.M. :mad:

[gimama]

68. Thank You Baby, I hear YOU!!!

gotta reality check 'em,
'they' need more Understanding ~g

[JWS]

48. He is right.

Accurate information is the most important thing right now. If the left says that abuse is widespread in Gitmo and they are wrong then they lose credibility. But if the left focuses on how unethical it is to lock people up without a trial and throw away the key, and run a prison without public oversight then maybe we can fix what needs to be fixed at Gitmo and focus on prisoner abuse at Bagram and Abu Graib.

After all prisoners who have been transferred from Bagram and Abu Graib have said Gitmo is a paradise compared to the hell holes they came from.

[bpilgrim]

50. we know there was and is TORTURE practices, daily, being followed there

AND many other places... on going... right NOW, from many documented sources of those who have been there, even from our own solders.

that this is not WELL KNOWN by now is due to our M$M and mis-information (i.e. your post)

i know, i know... you reserve the right to go with your gut.


more...
http://GlobalFreePress.com

peace

[JWS]

123. I am interested in learning about the torture you speak of

I am sorry if I come off as ignorant, but so far I have only heard compelling evidence of torture at Bagram and Abu Ghraib.

If I am wrong about this please point me in the direction of this well-documented evidence of torture at Gitmo that I am unable to find.

Thanks,

An Open Minded Democrat

[converted_democrat]

103. Gitmo needs to be shut down period.. There are many well documented

cases of abuse from many sources.. To suggest otherwise is ridiculous..

[JWS]

127. Once again

I don't mean to be ignorant so if it is possible, please direct me to this evidence.

thanks

[converted_democrat]

132. Here..

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/11/02/60II/main652953.shtml
This first link is a story about a service member that was mistakenly beaten in a "training exercise." He was dressed up as a detainee so they could "practice" an exercise, but they didn't tell the interrogators that it was an exercise.. They thought that he was a real detainee, and they beat the hell out of him.. They didn't realize that there had been a mistake made until they started to strip him and they noticed his uniform on under the orange jumpsuit.
-------

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1217973,00.html
This link is about video evidence that exists that they refuse to turn over.. If they aren't guilty of anything, why won't they turn over the tapes that they admit exist?
--------

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2004-09-09-pentagon-probe_x.htm
This link is about retired military brass that want an independent investigation into the issue, because they think it's important to get to the truth.. "We cannot ignore that there are now dozens of well-documented allegations of torture, abuse and otherwise questionable detention practices" eight former generals and admirals said Wednesday of prisons in Iraq, Afghanistan and Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. "


--------

http://talkleft.com/new_archives/011485.html
This link talks about how the torture techniques that were used at Abu Ghraib started out at Gitmo..

----------------

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/052305B.shtml
This link talks about the FBI witnessing abuse in Gitmo..
(The meat of it is about half way down the page, under- Torture at Guantánamo Prison) "A high-level military investigation concluded last month that several prisoners at Guantánamo were mistreated or humiliated. The findings were based on FBI agents' accounts that were never meant to be made public. The agents saw female interrogators forcibly squeeze male prisoners' genitals, and witnessed detainees stripped and shackled low to the floor for many hours.

Psychological torture has also been documented at the Guantánamo prison. "At least since 2002," according to Physicians for Human Rights, "the United States has been engaged in systematic psychological torture" of Guantánamo prisoners."



-------------
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/04/28/60minutes/main691602.shtml
This link is about "The story that Sgt. Erik Saar, a soldier who spent three months in the interrogation rooms at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, tells Correspondent Scott Pelley paints a picture of bizarre, even sadistic, treatment of detainees in the American prison camp."

[leesa]

108. It is very well documented in photos, testimonials and videos. Why are

you and this poster pretending the LEFT is pushing unsupported information? Quite often only the RIGHT refers to normal human beings as The Left.

[JWS]

125. Please direct me to this evidence

I am very interested in learning about this issue, but I am unable to find anything more than force feeding. I do not wish to remain ignorant about this issue so please help me out.

Thanks

[converted_democrat]

133. See post #132.. n/t

[Karenina]

120. All the "fixing" Gitmo needs

is to be SHUT DOWN.

[JWS]

126. Hey, I agree

It does need to get shut down.

[Karenina]

121. The world is a bit bigger

than your silly ideas of left/write "credibility. The "accurate information" has been a matter of GLOBAL PUBLIC RECORD for years. Your last sentence leaves me speechless. Excuse me, gotta run... :puke:

[JWS]

122. I think you mistook the context of my last sentence

The last sentence wasn't to say that guantanamo is a nice place, but to show that Bagram and Abu Ghraib are truly horrible places compared to it.

I am open to information regarding the rampant abuse and torture that you say goes on at Gitmo, however the most scandalous thing I have heard of so far is forced feeding of hunger strikers, which doesn't hold a candle to chaining inmates to the ceiling of cells for days on end, repeatedly striking inmates in the leg "to hear him scream" or the waterboarding that was approved by the DoD.

I am not saying that Gitmo is a great place, but that it seems to me that there is a groupthink that is going on here which is distorting the evidence about torture at Gitmo.

If by chance you take the time to consider what I am arguing, then I hope this post clears things up for you.

[NoSheep]

63. I fear for you and your kind. But I fear for those of us who must live by

the rule of the lowest common denominator even more.

[mmonk]

72. Are you serious?

The pictures I've seen from Abu Ghraib were bonified torture and murder. I personally don't know or haven't seen Gitmo.

[Thtwudbeme]

17. Well, you just gave us zero information

until you post something concrete to discuss, why bother?

[cdsilv]

18. OK, I'm full of shit, happy now? n/t

[Thtwudbeme]

20. ummm dude

I didn't write that you were full of shit.

I wrote that you gave us NO information whatsoever.

"Things are not as dire as they seem."

Well, dear, they rarely are.

Now, tell us what this person actually said, maybe.

[AX10]

22. I too want the details.

[cdsilv]

25. I'm not really sure how much I can say without getting dinged by ...

...national security interests.

Anyway.

What he told me is that the prisoners are not tortured - at least as far as he knew, and that those who go on hunger strikes do so to be included with the others who do so, so that they can communicate and plan whatever it is that they want to do as an organized group.

Admittedly, (and I suspect this is the case), our forces let them do this so they can listen in on what they are planning.

In any event, the rumour is that the gitmo detainees are going to be farmed out to other prisons in order to separate them.

Tempest in a teapot.

[laura888]

33. "Farmed out" to other NON-U.S. Prisons, no doubt

does that somehow make us less guilty?

[AX10]

19. There are pictures that prove that torture occured.

It is a FACT. Do you really expect a guard to admit to any that they tortured someone? :eyes:

[cdsilv]

26. Nope. I'm not defending them, just him.

Admittedly this guy was telling me his experiences in front of his wife.

I just guess I don't want to think of my neighbor as a torturer. Is that so wrong?

[cdsilv]

28. I give up. The mass of DU is right, my neighbor, who was there is wrong.

You guys/gals know all.

[bpilgrim]

32. why do you think DU is so popular

:evilgrin:

peace

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sandnsea]

36. Some people support torture

They don't see intimidation and humiliation tactics as torture. They don't see threatening with dogs or putting underwear over someone's head as a big deal, especially when they're in a closed environment where everybody has been indoctrinated to believe they're fighting the most dangerous threat to our country since Hitler. They don't believe their commanders would tell them to do something illegal or immoral, so they justify what they do. And minimize and rationalize. It's really not complicated.

Your neighbor believes he's doing right, and others believe those same actions are torture. Maybe your neighbor is right and that stuff really shouldn't be defined as torture. Or maybe not. That's why it should all be transparent, so we can decide these things as a country.

[Marie26]

118. Rationalization

No one wants to think they're doing a bad thing, so it's easy to rationalize & justify anything. Like saying it wasn't torture, because nobody died. I'd rely more on photos, NGO's & direct evidence rather than a soldier's opinion of whether something qualifies. Probably the Abu Ghraib soldiers didn't think it was torture either.

[Hissyspit]

47. "Gitmo is a NIGHTMARE" is what I heard from someone who has recently

returned from serving there, and that it is worse than what Americans already think. I heard this second-hand, but have no reason to think it is not true.

[Raster]

61. that's right, because you saw it on the Internets. I suppose the fact

that just about EVERY human rights organization ON THE PLANET is calling for Gitmo to close. Or just the fact that the United States has refused EVERY UNBIASED, NUETRAL ORGANIZATION the opportunity to inspect and verify. So, your buddy live next to you on base, or what?

[Zhade]

69. Well, when you start off with a bullshit premise...

...like "the left distorts things", what the fuck do you expect, a hearty welcome?

Sheesh!

Besides, your 'evidence' is strictly anecdotal, and hence unverifiable. Useless, in other words, except to yourself.

[gimama]

80. don't give UP, debate is good..

good way to process this stuff, this heavy stuff.

I mostly hope YOU will be as REAL,honest,& open-minded with Your NEIGHBOR as You can. He may never want to give You details,or hang with You. Don't take it personal, but send Your Neighbor some positive Energy, pray for him, if Your inclined that way.
Keep Yer Heart in the Right Place,and just be his NEIGHBOR.
Thanks for makin' the effort to Understand & share.

here's a good site for him to ck out:
www.veteransforcommonsense.org

[JWS]

130. If they are right I am open to that

But all I have read so far is alot of heckling and claims of evidence of torture, but not one poster has said where to find this evidence!

[bobbieinok]

43. NOT saying/implying anything about you BUT your comment

"I just guess I don't want to think of my neighbor as a torturer. Is that so wrong?" reminded me of a discussion I listened to on a first class train compartment in Germany in 1974

I was using my Eurail Pass (therefore first class), having just arrived at the Frankfurt airport and traveling to Marburg (one of my most favorite German towns).....I told the 3 elderly women (well, they were probably my age now; then they appeared OLD) I had just arrived from the US; we talked a little (all this in German; that's the language I did grad work in), and then they continued their conversation and I just listened

one of the women was nearly crying.....she was upset about information that had been coming out for some time about the actions of many/some? German soldiers in WWII, especially on the Eastern Front.....she told the others that her (older?) brother had been a soldier on the Eastern Front and that she just couldn't believe her brother would have ever done anything like that

I found it fascinating that I was able to listen to Germans discussing this.....and I was struck again about how hard it can be to accept that your country has done evil things and that someone you know and love might have done these things or seen them done by others

in that same visit to Germany, I spent some time with a German family I had met while the husband was on a sabbatical in the US......one evening we were travelling back to their home after having spent the day with some of their relatives.....the husband, wife, and I were talking about the Nazis, the concentration camps, etc, and how so many Germans even in the 1970s wanted to deny these things......and then their 7 year old son, whom everyone thought was asleep, asked from the back seat 'Did we Germans REALLY do that, Daddy?'......this question (and the problems of raising children in a society with such evil in its past) haunted me
for a long time........now, of course, it's not THEIR problem, it's OUR problem

[Mnemosyne]

51. Did you hear the father's answer to his 7 yr. old, bobbieinok? n/t

[bobbieinok]

59. he was clearly upset that his son had heard some of his own bitter

comments about the German actions, but he tried to be honest about the past AND honest that he, the boy's mother, and other adults were working very hard to see that nothing like that would ever happen again

I remember feeling that he did a very good job answering the child's question in a way that was both honest and reassuring

the whole thing made me think in a way I had never done before that it is very important for young children to BE ABLE to believe they live in a 'good' country with leaders they can admire......that poor little boy sounded so lost and afraid when he asked the question

[Mnemosyne]

98. I'm glad the father could ease the boy's mind, but

at the same time it raises another thought.

We must be careful to not raise children to be blind to others suffering nor to blindly believe that our country is and our people are superior to others. "USA! USA!" I think that has gotten us into the mess we are in now.

Children should be able to have light hearts, not worry and fear. While honesty is important with our children we certainly do not want to give them unnecessary nightmares, reality as they grow older will do that soon enough.

I have never understood why we as Americans should have such a superiority complex. Why are we better than someone from Iraq or Iran simply because we were born here? It boggles the mind!

Thank you for sharing your experience. It was a very interesting story.

In hope of peace,:hi:
v

[Gormy Cuss]

106. No, it's not so wrong to want to think the neighbor isn't a torturer.

He doesn't want to be associated with the word himself, obviously. He may not have witnessed or participated in events that he regarded as torture. That does not say make a compelling case that torture hasn't occurred. He may have seen nothing. He may have not recognized it as torture because it was done to serve the greater good of identifying terrorists. He may have done some things that he's ashamed to admit, too. Think back to the Abu Ghraib photos -- would any of those soldiers have allowed photos of their activity if they thought it was wrong?

I'm just saying the word of one guard who is now back in his normal society isn't sufficient to negate all of the other testimony. His assertions just add to the mix.

[Marie26]

116. Are there pictures from Gitmo?

I haven't seen any. (mostly because no one's allowed to take them, probably, but it's important to be right about this).

[JWS]

129. You keep saying there are photos etc!

what photos are you speaking of, I can only find photos of torture at Abu Ghraib!!!

Abu Ghraib is not Guantanamo!!!

[Warren DeMontague]

31. I don't believe they're free to discuss certain things.

Anyway, my bottom line is, torture or no- there's no disputing the fact that these folks are being held without charges, without any legal recourse or oversight, not being accorded the legitimate geneva convention war prisoner rights.. in essence, they've been turned into non-entities. Combine that with the large amounts of evidence saying these folks are NOT necessarily 'dangerous, Al Qaeda terra-ists', but in many cases may just be folks who were in the wrong place at the wrong time.

We should be better than torture, but we also should be better than 'disappearing' people indefinitely, too.

[laura888]

37. Exactly! Sweeping even one innocent up without a trial...

...makes us as bad as any totalitarian, fascist regime.

[NoSheep]

41. Only a half hour? And we don't get to hear any details?

How can I take this post seriously?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

42. How would YOU like to be treated like this, smartie?

Put yourself in the place of the Gitmo prisoners, if you're capable of empathy, which a lot of more conservative Americans aren't.

You're a peasant who got dragooned into service by the Taliban or Al Qaeda, and all of a sudden, some informant sells you (literally, receives a monetary reward) to the U.S. forces, and after several days in confinement, you're stripped to your underwear, have a hood placed over your head, are loaded into a transport plane, where you sit on the floor in chains and on an adult diaper, and you spend twelve or more hours not knowing where you're going. You don't speak English, and the guards don't speak your language, so you can't even ask. When you try to protest your innocence, the guards laugh at you.

When you arrive, you, who've lived in a desert mountain region all your life, are on a tropical island halfway around the world. You're put in a concrete cage that resembles a dog run. No one will tell you when you're getting out or even what you're charged with. You just get questioned and taunted all day, but you don't know anything. You really don't know anything. You're not allowed to see a lawyer, and you can't get in touch with your family to let them know you're all right.

Now, is this "bad" or not?

[gimama]

81. Yikes

Did You read my little story #57?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

82. I just did, and all I can say is "Yikes!"

:hug:

[gimama]

87. LOL! "yikes!" on You reading my Mind!

& thanks for Hug & smile!

[JWS]

45. Revolution? Try the CANVAS website and contact Pora for tips.

They are the experts at successful, peaceful overthrow of corrupt dictators.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

53. For Him, Sure. But I Don't Recall Ever Reading That Every Guard At Gitmo

was involved or given access to the TRUE going ons there. I'm convinced most guards there are actually quite in the dark as to the other realities behind the walls.

[mitchtv]

56. you're right, no torture

It's now called 'Vigorous Interrogation'
No torture in the gulag either.

[Cocoa]

60. his name isn't "Sad Little Pony" is it?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x546932

[cdsilv]

62. all I am reporting is what I've been told.

Whether I have been lied to is for the DU community to determine, evidently. Not me.

Rick, (not nick, as I initially assumed), has only told me what happened. Maybe he was told what to say by his bosses. I don't know.

Could you please quit shooting the messenger?

I've been here awhile and don't really like getting stomped on.

[Cocoa]

67. I'm going to be honest

I'm not going to believe a word he says.

[RagingInMiami]

64. 72 percent of our troops believe Saddam was responsible for 911

According to a recent Zogby poll.

http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=107

So I guess they believe what ever is drilled into their heads day and night. So if your story is true, then I trust that guy as much as I trust an anonymous person on the internet.

[cdsilv]

65. sigh - rick was a guard at gitmo...

and he says torture did not happen under his superivision.

According to others, including Sy Hersh it did happen elsewhere. Why do any of you have
a problem believeng that it might have happened where rick could not see it? Or that rick
would have been ordered to not to discuss it?

I'm just reporting what a returned gitmo guard (my next door neighbor) has told me, over a beer.

That's all.

Jeez.

[RagingInMiami]

66. sigh

The orders that rick follows are passed down from the pentagon. What kind of beer does rick like?

[cdsilv]

71. OK, I've believed that Gitmo should be closed way before ....

..this 'war'. Why the hell should we have a military base in a country we have an embargo
against?

I was just trying to express the facts/opinions of a master sargeant who is my neighbor to the DU community and I got pilloried for doing so.

..............

I live in across the street from the Navy hospital in P'cola, and most of my neighbors are either Navy or Marines. Many of them have been asked to volunteer for Afganistan or Iraq. These folks are KIDS, 18-24 years old. I have daughters in that age range (thankfully living in Texas and uneligible for military service). I'm 46, and never served in the military, never wanted to. Call me a coward if you want to, I don't CARE.

Sigh. and another sigh.

[RagingInMiami]

73. Why so many sighs

Skepticism is something every American should possess.

[Marie26]

113. Thanks

People can choose to believe Rick or not. Just because torture isn't happening where he is doesn't mean it didn't happen elsewhere. Or maybe he was told what to say. Or, maybe, it's not that bad. We'll never know the truth unless we get first-hand information. Thanks for posting this. Sorry if you feel harassed, there is reason to be skeptical of any story you hear 2nd-hand over the Internet. But I think it's interesting that people would be much nicer to you, & much less skeptical, if you had said something different. Sometimes we only want to hear what supports our own pre-conceived notions, I guess.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

90. What I'm having trouble understanding is how him saying

that torture didn't happen on his shift (as if he'd say, sure I'm guilty of a crime that's punishable by law :eyes: ) means that things are less dire than we think they are.

I'm sorry, but that's like saying things aren't as dire as we think in the US, I just had a beer with bush and he assured me we're doing great. It's not good enough to take the word of a person who by telling you the truth, if he had tortued anyone, would be admitting to committing a crime.

I know a kid whose an MP in Afghanistan. He said he'll take his chances of dying in the field rather than accept a cushy job at a detention center. He wants no part of that mess.

[jbnow]

92. I don't get it either really.

If your story is true and you have the neighbor that was a guard and told you that, why not pass it on? Just like if he said bad things did happen, why not pass it on?

There is documentation that torture occurred there, but that doesn't mean always in every area of the camp and that all troops can see. I'm sure the worst things would be done around fewer people.

Or perhaps he saw some things against geneva convention that he was told was standard/approved for this group and he has no idea he saw wrong things. bush administration have opinion papers that Geneva doesn't apply there any more then bush orders it to.

Who knows? Your post didn't say a lot, which you already noted. If a neighbor ex-guard told me something I might pass it along as well.

The administration gives us reason to be very suspicious, even certain "bad" things happen there by not following what we expect every prison camp to follow. Not letting inspectors in, letting them talk to prisoners, all their papers about how they can torture as long as they can get around being charged with torture, some legal loophole out, the information we already have that is documented...well we have reason to doubt all is well there.

That doesn't mean an ex-guard couldn't say what you reported one said to you.

[w8liftinglady]

70. Can be a symptom of PTSD

Avoidance symptoms, where sufferers persistently avoid stimuli associated with the trauma, withdraw from social interaction, or have difficulty responding emotionally to others. Because traumatic memories are very unpleasant, the individual tries to avoid situations, people or events which remind them of their stressors. Typical symptoms may include:
Efforts to avoid thoughts or feelings associated with the trauma.
Efforts to avoid activities or situations that arouse recollections of the trauma.
Inability to recall an important aspect of the trauma (psychogenic amnesia).
Markedly diminished interest in significant activities.
Feeling of detachment or estrangement from others.
Restricted range of affect, e.g., unable to have love feelings.
Sense of a foreshortened future, e.g., does not expect to have a career, marriage, children, or a long life.
Substance abuse
http://vets.appliedphysics.swri.edu/patience/ptsdfaq_ray.htm

[cdsilv]

75. All I've been trying to tell y'all is that this is what the ....

...returning troops from Gitmo (and Iraq, I guess) are telling people.

Wrong or Right, this is what their families and friends are being told.

If we want to get the message out that this is not the truth, we have to find some way to
do so. The troops I talk with daily will NOT do that for us.

[w8liftinglady]

77. it took my son three years to give me a glimpse at the truth

...and the little bit of truth he has given me is horror.

[cdsilv]

78. exactly. n/t

[gimama]

84. Thinking of You, & Yours

I hope You have a circle of SUPPORTIVE,Loving People that can help Your FAMILY process all this. I collect reSources & links AS a coping method,let me know if I can somehow help.
here's one:
Walkin' to New Orleans.. http://vetgulfmarch.org

[w8liftinglady]

86. Thank YOU....

This is a new thing for me.I hope I can help my son find someone to vent to,and absolve some of the guilt I know he feels.

[gimama]

91. I know. and YOU WILL .

Please ck these,look around,get a feel for what's available for ALL concerned.. there are LOTS of different sites coming up,trying to fill some of the needs.

First,TRUST YourSelf. Your Mother Instinct is foolproof,if nothing else fogs it up*. NO body knows him,like YOU do.
Which is sometimes the last thing a grown man or a Soldier wants.. ;)

2nd, *Take GOOD CARE of YOU, whatever that means to YOU. I KNOW MIRACLES can come from this awful,ugly time.. BELIEVE it.

Some sites to look into:
~Veterans for Common Sense.org ~an AWESOME advocate for Soldiers & Vets. They accomplish alot in DC & yet are usually NONpartisan. Lots of 'em are angry tho,they aren't so NONpartisan,any more! Excellent news Source,issues,more.. these Guys CARE.

~OpTRUTH.org ~has now changed to Iraq & Afghanistan Veterans~
I'll double ck that,but OpTruth will get You there. Also good outlet for venting,activism,connecting..it doesn't always look pretty,but it is WAY important.

~IVAW.net ~Iraq Veterans against the war~ I'm partial to these Guys,the'Babies' of the Military Families Speak Out

and Veterans for PEACE have chapters all over, an AWESOME,caring bunch,if they don't know sumthin', they'll find out..

& VFP WILL NOT forget their fellow Soldiers, Vets & Military Families.
I have SEEN them working with Younger Vets & Soldiers,sharing, HEALING.It is PROFOUND. I sure enCourage YOU to reach out to them,even before Your Son is out,officially a "Vet".

Another note about these Young Veterans comin'up:
They blog,they write, make music, make films..the creativity is amazing.and it is a Majical, HEALING Process, when You witness it.

& MFSO.org ~Military Families Speak Out

I hope this helps. Please KNOW that as bad & lonely as it can be,
YOU 2 are NOT alone. Let me know if I am needed ~g

[w8liftinglady]

100. It just occured to me-your screen name

G I mama....bless you,too,love.

[Random_Australian]

94. Hope springs eternal (I don't mean that cynically)

Because remember, everthing happens for a reason, and if one set of experiences can change a person into a shell, into a guard of Abu Ghraib, then another set of experiences can bring them back.

Sincerely, best of luck to all of you, never forget that even the unrepentant are people too.

I wish my computer could send arms that I might hug all of you.

Healers are always my heroes.

[gimama]

96. I just got a big eHug!

thank YOU, & BLESS YOU right back.

[thebigidea]

135. no it fucking isn't. its what ONE returning soldier is telling you.

there are countless others who have testified to the horrors being carried out in freedom's name.

Maybe you just stumbled on one of the few good apples.

[alcibiades_mystery]

93. I never understand the "talking to the primary" fetish

This guy has just as many biases as anyone. Why would the fact that he was there erase his biased perception and presentation? It would seem, rather, to heighten it. That's why we have impartial observers from NGO's look at this kind of thing. The guards at Auschwitz also probably thought it wasn't that bad. Hell, they're on record saying as much.

[Pastiche423]

97. cdsilv - please read this...

McCain Law May Not Apply to Cuba Prison

By Josh White and Carol D. Leonnig
Washington Post Staff Writers
Friday, March 3, 2006; Page A04

Bush administration lawyers, fighting a claim of torture by a Guantanamo Bay detainee, yesterday argued that the new law that bans cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment of detainees in U.S. custody does not apply to people held at the military prison.

In federal court yesterday and in legal filings, Justice Department lawyers contended that a detainee at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, cannot use legislation drafted by Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) to challenge treatment that the detainee's lawyers described as "systematic torture."
....
U.S. District Judge Gladys Kessler said in a hearing yesterday that she found allegations of aggressive U.S. military tactics used to break the detainee hunger strike "extremely disturbing" and possibly against U.S. and international law. But Justice Department lawyers argued that even if the tactics were considered in violation of McCain's language, detainees at Guantanamo would have no recourse to challenge them in court.
....
"Unfortunately, I think the government's right; it's a correct reading of the law," said Tom Malinowski, Washington advocacy director for Human Rights Watch. "The law says you can't torture detainees at Guantanamo, but it also says you can't enforce that law in the courts."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/03/02/AR2006030202054.html

[Marie26]

119. Incredible

"The law says you can't torture detainees at Guantanamo, but it also says you can't enforce that law in the courts."

What kind of crazy law is that? When did this country start to resemble the Twilight Zone?

[Name removed]

101. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[elehhhhna]

102. They must keep silent on events for 25 years--in fact they're sworn to

that and sign confid. agreements with the mil.

Your neighbor ain't gonna tell you JACK. Our neighbor is a translator for the Mil (we don't even know where he's at in the ME)and says it's a 25 year deal and if you talk , they'll punish you bigtime.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

104. Which only goes to show that the only purpose of "secrecy" is

to keep the government's unsavory deeds secret from the general public.

The prisoners know, the guards know, the Islamic world knows, hell, the rest of the world knows, but the guards won't talk so that their neighbors think all is fine and dandy at Gitmo.

[cdsilv]

107. I never said it was 'fine and dandy'. I just said this is what I've been

told. Now that the 25 year secrecy clause has been mentioned, I understand why he would say what he did.

These guys are just kids, and I guess bushco has them scared witless.

[Raster]

109. I spent an hour talking to a former guard at Auschwitz, and it appears

that according to him, things are less dire than we think they are.

[Demand Justice]

110. "we need a new crop of legislators and executives in Washington, D.C"

:toast:

check it out
The following districts need Dems to run for Congress. Here's your chance
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2490459&mesg_id=2490459

[SmokingJacket]

112. No, it absolutely is dire.

Or are those people chained on their knees in cages not actually in Guantanamo?

[specimenfred1984]

117. Just ask Scumsfeld, IT'S LIKE A VACATION DOWN THERE!

"Those people never had it so good"!

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

128. How many kinds of vegetable and fruit do they get again?

[Ms. Clio]

134. I'm sure this post from just this morning is just an odd coincidence, too

Centcom's "concerned trolls" ....at least they are letting us know ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2493826

[chrisbur]

136. This is interesting because..

a couple years ago before Abu Graihb broke "a friend of mine" met a recently discharged guard from Gitmo. Evidently he was a private of about twenty years old. According to my friend's friend it was "Way worse than anybody knows."

For what that is worth!