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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-19-06 03:41 PM
Original message
Debating evolution/creation with a preacher.
This has been going on for several months on another message board. The preacher does nothing but attempt to poke holes in evolution, thus making creation the default "truth" (in his mind), a fairly common tactic in this debate. And he has also made stupid comments about humans "not evolving from fish." No shit.

I decided to have a little fun today, so I posted this:

If humans didn't evolve from fish, then how do you account for the active liposomes and boswelox particles on the Bohr Radius hemisphere of the brain? I bet you'd say something like it's the Van de Graaff Generator disengaged from electron capture, right?

And that of course means NOTHING. But here's how he responded:

Ughhhhh....God put them there? Simple explanation for a complex question.

:rofl:

Science just doesn't matter AT ALL to some of these people. Without even bothering to look up some of the terms I used, he just declared it the work of God.


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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-19-06 03:48 PM
Response to Original message
1. Sticking god into any inquiry stifles more inquiry, which is why
"god did it" has no place in science. Once got sticks his long blue nose into the equation, all reasoning stops, all curiosity stops, and any study that tries to go behind that answer to find out how such a thing was accomplished gets denounced as blasphemy.

Religion gave us the dark ages, the witch burnings, the Inquisition. Science gave us medicine, dishwashers, airplanes, and plastic. Both contribute to war, alas.

Personally, I'll take science. Its contributions have improved my life, overall. If believers want to call an uneasy truce, that's fine with me. However, when they try to insert "god did it" into any discussion, that discussion is OVER.
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Mythsaje Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-19-06 03:49 PM
Response to Original message
2. Probably the hardest people to reach
Edited on Sun Mar-19-06 03:50 PM by Mythsaje
through the use of facts. The complexities of the question don't matter, because these people break things down into their simplest expressions. "God" as the ultimate architect, scientist, and law-giver.

Never mind the sheer superstitious absurdity of a divine being fashioning a human in whole cloth out of mud, or forming them bodily from the rib of another. It's as absurd as the Norse myth of the recreation of the human race performed by a person throwing stones over their shoulder after THEIR version of the Great Flood.

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rockymountaindem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-19-06 03:49 PM
Response to Original message
3. I think that these debates often miss the point.
I believe in God and the theory of evolution. To me, it is obvious that evolution has taken place, but personally I also see a role for God in that process. I belive that God created the universe and life on Earth through observable, what we would call "natural" phenomena. Other people will not be able to convince me otherwise, because for me it is an article of faith.

However, I admit that faith is all I have. I can neither prove, nor can you disprove, that my beliefs are correct. Now here's the part where I think we need to shift the debate. I have my beliefs, but they are not scientific. "Science" is not mere knowledge, but a method an process by which ideas are tested and verified. One cannot create a test to prove or disprove "creationism" in its many forms. Therefore, it does not belong in a "science" classroom. It belongs in a theology classroom.

I do not begrudge anyone their personal religious beliefs. However, I do not think they their thoughts on God, nor mine, belong in a biology classroom, as they cannot be tested. That is what we are really fighting for, not to get people to "believe" in evolution, just admit that "creationism" and science aren't the same thing.
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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-19-06 03:56 PM
Response to Original message
4. That was brilliant.
But everyone knows that the Fehlion fractal assymmetry of the cerebral cortex, due to it's direct inverse proportion to the Bohr Radius liposome dispersal, has a negating effect on the synaptic firing patterns de Graaff's constant emulates in that radius...

DUH!!!
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Xeric Donating Member (586 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-19-06 03:57 PM
Response to Original message
5. It's like debating a rock, a particularly dumb rock
There is nothing I find more pathetic than some Jethro attempting to argue his creation "science" with the full weight of the vast majority of scientific fact against him. Who should I believe, some bozo with a sixth grade education who thinks science is some evil conspiracy against his confused religiosity, or Nobel prize winners? It's not surprising your "preacher" wasn't able to discern that you were mocking his ignorance. He's simply incapable of seeing reality, except through his filtered lens of superstition. No amount of facts will dissuade him. The fact that more than half the population is like him is truely sad. This is what happens when science and math are not taught adequately in schools and when a society allows the religious extremists to indoctrinate its children.

Go from the presence of a foolish man, when thou perceivest not in him the lips of knowledge. Proverbs 14.7
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IsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-19-06 04:01 PM
Response to Original message
6. I never could see why god couldn't have created man through evolution.
The two ideals are not mutually exclusive in my mind.
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0rganism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-19-06 04:03 PM
Response to Original message
7. Whoa -- you've got this guy out on a limb, now saw him right off the tree
See how much bullshit you can get this guy to explain with "Goddidit", one or two more such posts (but not too many -- eventually you may stumble across a buzzword the guy actually knows...)

Then declare that it's all BS, and show how his misguided "faith" prevented him from discerning an actual question from a fake one.
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-19-06 04:08 PM
Response to Original message
8. If they want the scientific community to accept creationism as fact
they will need to allow it to be tested by the scientific community. If they have any evidence that can be tested, bring it on.
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Dr.Phool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-19-06 04:20 PM
Response to Original message
9. The best source of information is at this site.
www.infidels.org

There is a whole treaure trove of information there. But this is about as likely to impress this preacher, as .......
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ThoughtCriminal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-19-06 04:24 PM
Response to Original message
10. Relavitity - A fun math problem
If you travel VERY close to the speed of light, time slows down for the traveler. This has been proven experimentally.

Q: How much time passes on Earth if you leave and travel around the universe at just a tiny fraction under the speed of light for six days?

A: 13-15 billion years.

I made the calculation a few years ago, but don't remember the exact values (billionths of % under light speed as I recall).
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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-20-06 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. That is correct.
-To the best of my knowledge.

The cool part is that when you achieve the speed of light, you leave the universe by going straight to the 'end' of it.

My question is this- What experiment are you referring to that proved this?
Astronauts with watches and subsequent extrapolation?
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nuxvomica Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-19-06 04:34 PM
Response to Original message
11. Even if that's the correct answer, wouldn't God respond with
"Good. Now for full credit, show your work."
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Vetinarii Donating Member (32 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-19-06 04:39 PM
Response to Original message
12. My favorite question for creationists:
Why would a good and benevolent God pepper His creation with such things as Brugia malayi (http://maven.smith.edu/~sawlab/fgn/pnb/brugmal.html)?

If God created the world, I suggest that gives us ample evidence that God is not benevolent, or even neutral - He is actively malignant and enjoys nothing more than seeing humans suffer.

Please try to answer without using the word "ineffable".
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Kailassa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-19-06 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. God needs many means at his disposal to punish the Heathen.
It is obvious to any committed Christian, (or Republican,) that anyone who contracts such a repulsive disease must be a thoroughly evil person, and actually deserve far worse than they are getting. Therefore, by helping such people, we are defying the will of God. This is proved by the fact that, in His great wisdom, He made so many diseases contagious, ensuring that those who cared for such sinners would end up sharing their afflictions.

Or, from a Buddhist viewpoint, it's just the karma they have earned, and if you alleviate it, you will prevent them learning necessary lessons.

Do I need sarcasm tags here?
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-20-06 04:37 PM
Response to Original message
15. I would tell these guys that I don't accept the Bible as
a valid source for science. If he can come up with some solid proof for his assertions from credible scientific sources then he has my attention. Of course they can't and that's why the work of God argument ends all discussion.

Don't waste your time.
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Sapere aude Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-20-06 04:41 PM
Response to Original message
16. The whole reason for "God did it" is so they don't have to think.
see below:



Immanuel Kant:
What is Enlightenment?, 1784


Enlightenment is man's release from his self-incurred tutelage. Tutelage s man's inability to make use of his understanding without direction from another. Self-incurred is this tutelage when its cause lies not in lack of reason but in lack of resolution and courage to use it without direction from another. Sapere aude! "Have courage to use your own reason!"- that is the motto of enlightenment.

Laziness and cowardice are the reasons why so great a portion of mankind, after nature has long since discharged them from external direction (naturaliter maiorennes), nevertheless remains under lifelong tutelage, and why it is so easy for others to set themselves up as their guardians. It is so easy not to be of age. If I have a book which understands for me, a pastor who has a conscience for me, a physician who decides my diet, and so forth, I need not trouble myself. I need not think, if I can only pay - others will easily undertake the irksome work for me.

That the step to competence is held to be very dangerous by the far greater portion of mankind (and by the entire fair sex) - quite apart from its being arduous is seen to by those guardians who have so kindly assumed superintendence over them. After the guardians have first made their domestic cattle dumb and have made sure that these placid creatures will not dare take a single step without the harness of the cart to which they are tethered, the guardians then show them the danger which threatens if they try to go alone. Actually, however, this danger is not so great, for by falling a few times they would finally learn to walk alone. But an example of this failure makes them timid and ordinarily frightens them away from all further trials.

For any single individua1 to work himself out of the life under tutelage which has become almost his nature is very difficult. He has come to be fond of his state, and he is for the present really incapable of making use of his reason, for no one has ever let him try it out. Statutes and formulas, those mechanical tools of the rational employment or rather misemployment of his natural gifts, are the fetters of an everlasting tutelage. Whoever throws them off makes only an uncertain leap over the narrowest ditch because he is not accustomed to that kind of free motion. Therefore, there are few who have succeeded by their own exercise of mind both in freeing themselves from incompetence and in achieving a steady pace.

But that the public should enlighten itself is more possible; indeed, if only freedom is granted enlightenment is almost sure to follow. For there will always be some independent thinkers, even among the established guardians of the great masses, who, after throwing off the yoke of tutelage from their own shoulders, will disseminate the spirit of the rational appreciation of both their own worth and every man's vocation for thinking for himself. But be it noted that the public, which has first been brought under this yoke by their guardians, forces the guardians themselves to renain bound when it is incited to do so by some of the guardians who are themselves capable of some enlightenment - so harmful is it to implant prejudices, for they later take vengeance on their cultivators or on their descendants. Thus the public can only slowly attain enlightenment. Perhaps a fall of personal despotism or of avaricious or tyrannical oppression may be accomplished by revolution, but never a true reform in ways of thinking. Farther, new prejudices will serve as well as old ones to harness the great unthinking masses.

For this enlightenment, however, nothing is required but freedom, and indeed the most harmless among all the things to which this term can properly be applied. It is the freedom to make public use of one's reason at every point. But I hear on all sides, "Do not argue!" The Officer says: "Do not argue but drill!" The tax collector: "Do not argue but pay!" The cleric: "Do not argue but believe!" Only one prince in the world says, "Argue as much as you will, and about what you will, but obey!" Everywhere there is restriction on freedom.

Which restriction is an obstacle to enlightenment, and which is not an obstacle but a promoter of it? I answer: The public use of one's reason must always be free, and it alone can bring about enlightenment among men. The private use of reason, on the other hand, may often be very narrowly restricted without particularly hindering the progress of enlightenment. By the public use of one's reason I understand the use which a person makes of it as a scholar before the reading public. Private use I call that which one may make of it in a particular civil post or office which is entrusted to him. Many affairs which are conducted in the interest of the community require a certain mechanism through which some members of the community must passively conduct themselves with an artificial unanimity, so that the government may direct them to public ends, or at least prevent them from destroying those ends. Here argument is certainly not allowed - one must obey. But so far as a part of the mechanism regards himself at the same time as a member of the whole community or of a society of world citizens, and thus in the role of a scholar who addresses the public (in the proper sense of the word) through his writings, he certainly can argue without hurting the affairs for which he is in part responsible as a passive member. Thus it would be ruinous for an officer in service to debate about the suitability or utility of a command given to him by his superior; he must obey. But the right to make remarks on errors in the military service and to lay them before the public for judgment cannot equitably be refused him as a scholar. The citizen cannot refuse to pay the taxes imposed on him; indeed, an impudent complaint at those levied on him can be punished as a scandal (as it could occasion general refractoriness). But the same person nevertheless does not act contrary to his duty as a citizen, when, as a scholar, he publicly expresses his thoughts on the inappropriateness or even the injustices of these levies, Similarly a clergyman is obligated to make his sermon to his pupils in catechism and his congregation conform to the symbol of the church which he serves, for he has been accepted on this condition. But as a scholar he has complete freedom, even the calling, to communicate to the public all his carefully tested and well meaning thoughts on that which is erroneous in the symbol and to make suggestions for the better organization of the religious body and church. In doing this there is nothing that could be laid as a burden on his conscience. For what he teaches as a consequence of his office as a representative of the church, this he considers something about which he has not freedom to teach according to his own lights; it is something which he is appointed to propound at the dictation of and in the name of another. He will say, "Our church teaches this or that; those are the proofs which it adduces." He thus extracts all practical uses for his congregation from statutes to which he himself would not subscribe with full conviction but to the enunciation of which he can very well pledge himself because it is not impossible that truth lies hidden in them, and, in any case, there is at least nothing in them contradictory to inner religion. For if he believed he had found such in them, he could not conscientiously discharge the duties of his office; he would have to give it up. The use, therefore, which an appointed teacher makes of his reason before his congregation is merely private, because this congregation is only a domestic one (even if it be a large gathering); with respect to it, as a priest, he is not free, nor can he be free, because he carries out the orders of another. But as a scholar, whose writings speak to his public, the world, the clergyman in the public use of his reason enjoys an unlimited freedom to use his own reason to speak in his own person. That the guardian of the people (in spiritual things) should themselves be incompetent is an absurdity which amounts to the eternalization of absurdities.

But would not a society of clergymen, perhaps a church conference or a venerable classis (as they call themselves among the Dutch) , be justified in obligating itself by oath to a certain unchangeable symbol inorder to enjoy an unceasing guardianship over each of its numbers and thereby over the people as a whole , and even to make it eternal? I answer that this is altogether impossible. Such contract, made to shut off all further enlightenment from the human race, is absolutely null and void even if confirmed by the supreme power , by parliaments, and by the most ceremonious of peace treaties. An age cannot bind itself and ordain to put the succeeding one into such a condition that it cannot extend its (at best very occasional) knowledge , purify itself of errors, and progress in general enlightenment. That would be a crime against human nature, the proper destination of which lies precisely in this progress and the descendants would be fully justified in rejecting those decrees as having been made in an unwarranted and malicious manner.

The touchstone of everything that can be concluded as a law for a people lies in the question whether the people could have imposed such a law on itself. Now such religious compact might be possible for a short and definitely limited time, as it were, in expectation of a better. One might let every citizen, and especially the clergyman, in the role of scholar, make his comments freely and publicly, i.e. through writing, on the erroneous aspects of the present institution. The newly introduced order might last until insight into the nature of these things had become so general and widely approved that through uniting their voices (even if not unanimously) they could bring a proposal to the throne to take those congregations under protection which had united into a changed religious organization according to their better ideas, without, however hindering others who wish to remain in the order. But to unite in a permanent religious institution which is not to be subject to doubt before the public even in the lifetime of one man, and thereby to make a period of time fruitless in the progress of mankind toward improvement, thus working to the disadvantage of posterity - that is absolutely forbidden. For himself (and only for a short time) a man may postpone enlightenment in what he ought to know, but to renounce it for posterity is to injure and trample on the rights of mankind. And what a people may not decree for itself can even less be decreed for them by a monarch, for his lawgiving authority rests on his uniting the general public will in his own. If he only sees to it that all true or alleged improvement stands together with civil order, he can leave it to his subjects to do what they find necessary for their spiritual welfare. This is not his concern, though it is incumbent on him to prevent one of them from violently hindering another in determining and promoting this welfare to the best of his ability. To meddle in these matters lowers his own majesty, since by the writings in which his own subjects seek to present their views he may evaluate his own governance. He can do this when, with deepest understanding, he lays upon himself the reproach, Caesar non est supra grammaticos. Far more does he injure his own majesty when he degrades his supreme power by supporting the ecclesiastical despotism of some tyrants in his state over his other subjects.

If we are asked , "Do we now live in an enlightened age?" the answer is, "No ," but we do live in an age of enlightenment. As things now stand, much is lacking which prevents men from being, or easily becoming, capable of correctly using their own reason in religious matters with assurance and free from outside direction. But on the other hand, we have clear indications that the field has now been opened wherein men may freely dea1 with these things and that the obstacles to general enlightenment or the release from self-imposed tutelage are gradually being reduced. In this respect, this is the age of enlightenment, or the century of Frederick.

A prince who does not find it unworthy of himself to say that he holds it to be his duty to prescribe nothing to men in religious matters but to give them complete freedom while renouncing the haughty name of tolerance, is himself enlightened and deserves to be esteemed by the grateful world and posterity as the first, at least from the side of government , who divested the human race of its tutelage and left each man free to make use of his reason in matters of conscience. Under him venerable ecclesiastics are allowed, in the role of scholar, and without infringing on their official duties, freely to submit for public testing their judgments and views which here and there diverge from the established symbol. And an even greater freedom is enjoyed by those who are restricted by no official duties. This spirit of freedom spreads beyond this land, even to those in which it must struggle with external obstacles erected by a government which misunderstands its own interest. For an example gives evidence to such a government that in freedom there is not the least cause for concern about public peace and the stability of the community. Men work themselves gradually out of barbarity if only intentional artifices are not made to hold them in it.

I have placed the main point of enlightenment - the escape of men from their self-incurred tutelage - chiefly in matters of religion because our rulers have no interest in playing guardian with respect to the arts and sciences and also because religious incompetence is not only the most harmful but also the most degrading of all. But the manner of thinking of the head of a state who favors religious enlightenment goes further, and he sees that there is no danger to his lawgiving in allowing his subjects to make public use of their reason and to publish their thoughts on a better formulation of his legislation and even their open-minded criticisms of the laws already made. Of this we have a shining example wherein no monarch is superior to him we honor.

But only one who is himself enlightened, is not afraid of shadows, and has a numerous and well-disciplined army to assure public peace, can say: "Argue as much as you will , and about what you will , only obey!" A republic could not dare say such a thing. Here is shown a strange and unexpected trend in human affairs in which almost everything, looked at in the large , is paradoxical. A greater degree of civil freedom appears advantageous to the freedom of mind of the people, and yet it places inescapable limitations upon it. A lower degree of civil freedom, on the contrary, provides the mind with room for each man to extend himself to his full capacity. As nature has uncovered from under this hard shell the seed for which she most tenderly cares - the propensity and vocation to free thinking - this gradually works back upon the character of the people, who thereby gradually become capable of managing freedom; finally, it affects the principles of government, which finds it to its advantage to treat men, who are now more than machines, in accordance with their dignity.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-20-06 04:46 PM
Response to Original message
17. "God put them there!" (An argument for Creation 1 second ago.)
Edited on Mon Mar-20-06 04:49 PM by TahitiNut
All our 'memories' - all fossil 'records' - all that exists was created by God a mere 1 second ago (or less). This is, in effect, substantiated by the very same 'argument' for Creationism. After all, given an omnipotent God, with absolutely no limits to Her powers (and no discernible rationale, either) the possibility cannot be refuted, right?
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-20-06 04:47 PM
Response to Original message
18. I like this one; "If men evolved from apes, why are there still apes?"
Answer that, science-boy! :crazy:
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-20-06 04:48 PM
Response to Original message
19. Hit him with the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
That'll piss him off.
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Joanne98 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-20-06 04:50 PM
Response to Original message
20. I'm putting a navity scene in my yard next xmas. I'm replacing
the baby Jesus with a monkey! Ask him what he thinks about that!
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