Deceased miners were within 2,000 ft of breathable air.

[ladjf]

According to an article in the AJC this morning, the SAGA miners were within 2,000 ft of breathable air and there were no physical obstacles between their position and the surface exit. In other words, they could have walked out easily had they chosen to do so. And, it also means that rescuers could have easily walked directly to their position for relief.

The rescue operation seemed to be very fearful of another explosion. It was hours before anyone ventured into the mine. One attempt to introduce a robot failed. The rescuers could have walked in good air to within 2,000 ft of the trapped miners, put on their breathing apparatus and moved within minutes to the location. It even appears that the rescuers could have ridden down to the site on the regular shuttle vehicle. They probably rejected that idea due to the possibility of setting off another blast.

A well designed robot probe, stationed at the mouth of the mine (and all other mines) could have rolled to their location in minutes. I suggest an eight individually articulated knobby rubber wheels for a neoprene two ft tall robot-probe that carried on board (1) lights, (2) two-way communications, (3) TV and infra-red cameras,(4) supplemental air,(5) air quality testers, (6) small doppler radar for forward scanning,(7) breathable air supple and (8) various other supplies that might be needed by the trapped people. The entire gag lian of equipment could be bundled in a eight inch diameter slippery tube that would be towed down the passageway by the robot-probe. All of the electronics would be designed with adequate shields to avoid and static charge of possible methane in the atmosphere. From the surface to the end of the shaft, br eatable air stations would be stored along the walls of the shaft every 500 ft in small recessed alcoves.

Meanwhile as the robot-probe progressed, rescuers on foot would follow as long as the air quality was good. Then as the air became unbreathable they would go on breathing apparatuses that could be plugged into the probe gag lian. In the case of the Sago incident, the probe would have crawled directly to the site, followed by the rescuers on foot. All could have walked out within a hour or two. Had the robot encountered physical debris along the shaft, the recurs on foot could have attempted a debris removal before proceeding or sending for heavier equipment if necessary.

This incident may go down in history as the most needless and stupidest loss of life in the history of American mining. Whoever was in charge of mine safety and rescue, including the company owner, should be prosecuted, heavily fined and banned for life from the mining industry.

From a Federal standpoint, everybody is well aware the the Bush administration has been doing everything in their power to remove any safety processes that cut into the company profits. This, just like the Katrina disaster, is just another example proving the America has become a fascist dictatorship. Nothing less than that. And this fascist dictatorship has been sanctioned and supported by the religious right wing fanatics and the Dixie-cans.

With all the drivel that's been on the cable news, I've yet to hear one word to the effect that the deceased miners could have simply walked out or that the rescuers could have gone straight in. All I've seen is interviews with the grieving families, questions like "how do you feel about losing your loved one"? Please!

[enki23]

1. i think you mean miners

.

[ladjf]

2. Of course I meant miners. Aside from the spelling lesson,

what about the content of the post.

[Winston702]

3. They were also within 2000 ft on UNbreathable air

Try to hold your breath and close your eyes, then walk/run a half mile without taking a breathe.

[Maiden England]

4. I think they could have gone 2000ft with their 1 1/2 hour air supply

and taken quite a few breaths doing it....

[ladjf]

6. They could have walked to the surface in an hour and a half.

[ladjf]

5. I'm sorry. I can't understand your point.

According to the news article, they were within 2,000 ft of breathable air toward the exit of the mine. The place that they chose to occupy was not good air. Their respirators were going to expire within an hour regardless. They should have proceeded toward the exit until either the air quality got worse or they were blocked by debris.

[mountainvue]

28. I was curious as to why they didn't try to walk out. n/t

[Midlodemocrat]

37. My take on it is that they didn't know they were that close to

breathable air and chose to stay put in order to wait for rescue.

[ladjf]

41. That's exactly what happened. But, they could have sent

one of the twelve toward the exit. If he died in the attempt, it probably wouldn't have been any worse because they were all likely to die in that case. They had atmosphere testing equipment that could have told them whether the air was getting worse of better.

But, more important than whether they should have tried to exit is what was being done from the topside. As it turned out, one rescuer could have simply ridden the shuttle cart to the site of the miners. If they feared another explosion, one rescuer could have walked to their location.

Fearing that, a well designed robot-probe, towing rescue items could have motored to the site.
(No sparks for compressed air drive to eight individual knobby tired wheels) A vehicle such as this should be required by law to be placed at the mine entrance.

It appears that no one was willing to take the slightest chance in order to rescue those who were trapped.

The same federal group that was in charge of the rescue is in charge of investigating itself. Sweet!
Fascism.

[norml]

7. I wonder how much exposure this information will get?

They'll probably just want to stick with the story that nothing could've been done to save them in time.

[wallybarron]

8. Link please? nt

[ladjf]

10. I read the article in this morning's Atlanta Journal Constitution.

I'm not sure that there is an online version of this newspaper.

[high density]

14. Link

http://www.ajc.com/print/content/epaper/editions/today/news_34fb379650fc3146004d.html

Requires online registration, go to bugmenot for login info.

[ladjf]

18. Thanks.

[mountainvue]

29. This could certainly explain why the first

report said that they were alive.

[ladjf]

9. I don't know. Personally, I was so upset that I could hardly finish

eating my breakfast when I read about it in the paper.

1. They could have simply walked out.

2. Rescuers could have walked right up to them or even ridden down on the cart.

3. A well designed and pre-placed robot-probe could have made the rescue with NO risk to anyone.

4. Breathing and supply stations could have been place in locations down the mine shaft.

5. There were no physicians in the rescue team to determine the condition of the miners. They could have still been alive but with retarded respiration and heart rates due to the conditions.

6. The lack of preparation was mostly due to greed by management. Plain and simple.

[wallybarron]

16. Found it

http://www.ajc.com/search/content/auto/epaper/editions/saturday/news_34fb379650fc3146004d.html

That's very upsetting.

[ladjf]

20. It is the most flagrant violation of safety I've ever heard of in

American mining history.

[Waya]

15. I don't know....

...if something could have been done to get to those guys in time or not.
However, living in 'Coal Country' myself, I know that Miners don't go into the direction of an explosion, they go away from it, logically. The dust, the heat, the darkness, they don't know what is behind it, so they go in the opposite direction. You have limited air supply, so you don't want to come across a Rockwall or anything like that, which has you turning back.
According to the reports here (Ohio-WV Border) the miners were found approx. 12,000 into the mine. Movement in a Coal Mine is slow, you can't just run around and find a safe place. It is dark, you fight for air, not wanting to use up your emergency oxygen supply to quickly, and light (if any) is pretty dim. I'm sure the miners did the best they could with what they had. It just wasn't good enough. For exact details, I guess we just have to wait - if they will ever be known entirely at all.

[ladjf]

22. Valid points. However, I don't believe that the 12,000 ft distance

is correct. That would be almost six miles. I haven't seen that number anywhere else.

[Tace]

30. More Like 2.27 Miles

1 mile = 5,280 feet

[ladjf]

31. Bad arithmetic by me. thanks

[stray cat]

11. Whats the link?

[ladjf]

13. I read the article in this morning's Atlanta Journal Constitution.

(Jan 7,2006) I don't think they have an online version. I should have kept the paper but didn't.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

12. Suggestion for the WV legislature

Enact a law that states that when a mine has had violations posted on it, it must be shut down, and the CEO of the company that owns the mine must be among the first back in the mine to make sure it is safe.

As for the guys walking out-they didn't know where good air was-could they see so that they knew where they were even going? It would seem to me that the air would last longer if they stayed where they were instead of walking around. As I recall, they followed procedures. It was the lack of safety measures and making the mine safe that killed them, imho.

[ladjf]

17. You are correct that walking uses up more air. But, their

supply was going to be gone in 90 minutes regardless. They also had air quality analyzers. They could have progressed toward the exit, monitoring their air quality readings, using as little from their respirators as possible. They might have sent one person up the shaft but withing shouting distance for air tests.

They did follow regulations. But, those regulations depended upon an adequate rescue operation. A well designed and preplaced robot-probe could have immediately marched to their positions and effected the rescue with NO risk to anyone. All mines should be ordered by law to prep lace workable probes at the mine entrance.

Yes, Sago should have already been shut down due to safety violations.

[Divernan]

19. At least the mine manager should be the first one in .

Perhaps you read my account earlier this week. My dad graduated from NOtre Dame in 1933 with a degree in electrical engineering. Being at the height of the depression, the only job he could find was going back to his old hometown in southern Illinois and into the coal mines where his Dad worked. He worked there for several years before getting a teaching job, and he learned first hand what it means to risk your life at your job every single day, to make a living and support a family. Eventually he ended up as plant manager for a large manufacturing facility. He gave standing orders to the union shop steward that as soon as a worker reported a problem with any machine they were operating, that machine was to be taken out of operation and repaired ASAP. Once it was reported repaired my Dad was the first one to operate it. YOu can be damn sure that all those machines were absolutely repaired - no patched up or half ass repairs. The union bargaining committee came to my Dad's funeral and told my Mom and me of this practise. They said this, and his overall honesty with the unions was the reason there was never a strike during the nine years while he was in charge. After his death, the parent corp. brought in new management & new policies, and after several crippling strikes, the plant was closed.

[ladjf]

23. Excellent points. I believe that a strong union at Sago would

have seen to it that adequate safety measures would have been taken.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

25. Hats off to your dad

He walked his talk. Having lived in "Egypt" for several years, I am familiar with the mines and the strong union tradition-and the tradition of walking your talk.

[wallybarron]

21. Unfortunately

the WV legislature is pretty much owned by the coal mines.

[ladjf]

24. Exactly. Hello fascism. Wake up America. You are being

ravaged by greedy and cruel corporate sons of bitches.

[Maddy McCall]

26. Terribly sad.

:-(

[uppityperson]

27. Tragic. Miners were very much let down.

The miners did what they were supposed to do and died. I first read your OP as complaining that they should have known better, but rereading it I see your real point. Hindsight be damned, they did what they were supposed to do, but were let down by the higherups who didn't care enough to have decent safety measures in place and died. IF the safety and rescue people HAD been doing their job, they might have lived. Yes, you need to wait and make sure it is safe before rescue workers proceed in. Robots could have done that and are available to do that and weren't there to do that but could have been but weren't. And the miners died.

Buses and boats and NG should have been available for evacuations, aftermath of Katrina and weren't. Soldiers in Iraq don't have adequate safety equipment (begging the question of why they are there). And they all suffer. It is all the same crap.

No, the miners could not have known they should just walk towards the explosion. They did what they were supposed to and were let down by the safety/rescue/management/etc and died. Tragic.

[ladjf]

32. They need some lawmakers in their corner and a good union

as well.

[Lindacooks]

33. I want to know why in the hell they are only give one hour of oxygen

and an air purifier that lasts for 8 hours. It can't be that difficult to give each miner 48-60 hours of breathable air, whether from equipment they carry on them or safety stations in the mine walls.

But I probably already know the answer - money.

If I were one of those miner's families I would force the billionaire owner of that mine into the mine by himself and make sure he stayed there for a couple of weeks.

[ladjf]

34. I agree. Also, air supplies could be stashed all along the

main shaft. These safety stations could also be equipped with water and phone lines. Say each station costs 2,000, for $100,000 trapped miners would have an excellent chance for lifesaving air, water and communications. Further, a robot-probe, preplaced at the ground entrance could be sent with needed supplies and equipment.

The Saga tragedy will go down as one of the most senseless losses of life in mining history.

[Dr Batsen D Belfry]

36. I don't think the extra oxygen is an issue of cost

but one of safety. Oxygen is highly flammable, and if it is stashed around the mine, you have an additional problem. I am not sure how they would store it in such a way as to not add risk to the miners while they are underground. Bad enough they have to worry about methane, but an accident with an oxygen tank would be seriously devastating.

I believe part of the problem was the type of mine as well. Read my other post on longwall versus room and pillar mining.

DBDB

[ladjf]

38. I didn't mean that the breathing stations would have oxygen.

There is no need for oxygen. Good breathing air, which is not highly combustible is what they need, like what is in SCUBA tanks. Further, auxiliary air lines, with plug ins could be strung from the entrance to the terminus of the tunnel. That kind of air is no more of threat than what is present in the mine on a regular basis. Or, air scrubbers, if that would be safer. Some form of prep laced supplies would be most helpful.

[Lindacooks]

45. I did hear on CNN about mines that do have safety stations

with oxygen in several different areas.

"In 1915 more than 170 mining companies (out of a total of some 3,000 large coal-mining companies and 12,000 smaller coal-mining companies) had individually, or through the association of two or more companies, established 76 mine-rescue stations at which there were some 1,200 sets of oxygen breathing apparatus besides the auxiliary equipment for first-aid and fire-fighting work."

http://www.msha.gov/MineRescue/EARLY.htm

And here's the law in Saskatchewan:

"Every underground mine in Saskatchewan must install, equip, operate and maintain such refuge stations as are necessary to protect the workers.

Permanent refuge stations must be provided with food, water, air, first aid supplies and telephone communications to surface. Temporary refuge stations contain more limited supplies, but communication with the surface is also required.

Refuge stations vary in size and should have the volume to provide air for a large number of people without any additional supply of fresh air or oxygen. As a general rule, where there is no source of compressed air, a worker at rest will require 1 cubic metre of air per hour. In the hard rock mines, refuge stations are smaller than in the potash mines but they are supplied with compressed air lines from surface."

http://www.labour.gov.sk.ca/safety/mine-rescue-manual/chapter-6/survival-program.htm

[K-W]

40. Miners have been trying to do that for centuries.

But the mines still belong to profiteers, and human saftey continues to be a line item on a balance sheet.

[ladjf]

42. It's called fascism. We have a country this is run by big business.

The rest of us are no more than dupes and slaves. We obviously are angry enough about it.

[Lindacooks]

46. Sadly, you're right.

[ohio_liberal]

44. They're using 30 year old technology

Wheeling Jesuit College has recently been commissioned by OSHA to update the technology. It's at least a year off.

[Dr Batsen D Belfry]

35. While I agree the operators of that mine should

be held accountable (but won't), there is an awful lot that goes into the issue of the failed rescue that is not covered in the above post. I am no miner, nor am I an expert on mining, but I did spend a fair amount of time learning from mine engineers some time ago when I called on them.

1) When there is even suspicion of a mine explosion, I assume the first thing that is shut down is power. This would be done in order to prevent any sparking that would cause further explosions. This would limit not only visibility, but communications. If the power was intentionally turned off or was even off above ground, this would affect the ventilation in the mine.

2) The first thing anyone near a mine, whether above or below ground, worries about is methane. You always assume methane is present. Assuming methane is present, you don't send anything electronic near the area until you can verify through non-electronic means that the methane is at sufficiently low levels as to not flash.

3) Unlike Quecreek, where they knew the miners would head to the highest point in the mine, gas is different. You have no idea where good air and bad air is located short of exploring around with portable detectors. In a room and pillar mine, such as Sago, this is extremely difficult. In a longwall mine, the safety zones are far different, and as such, locating miners in a longwall mine would, I assume, be far easier.

4) Just because they were within 2000 feet doesn't really mean anything. 2000 feet is over 1/3 mile, and underground, in the dark with no communications and no idea if there is good air ahead, the likelihood of a successful outcome is slim. If that 2000 feet is toward the entrance, and the explosion was between them and the entrance, I doubt they would walk toward the area of explosion.

5) It is unlikely, but possible, that a series of lightning strikes could knock out power to ventilation and then subsequently ignite methane. It may not have been the violations at all, although they did probably have a part in the tragedy.

I agree based on the violations they had, I would think the mine should have been shut down. I also agree the miners died needlessly.

DBDB

[ladjf]

39. A well designed pre-place robot-probe could and would have

bypassed all of your objections. It would have walked within minutes to the location of the trapped miners, testing the air all along the way for breath ability and methane. The miners could have talked to the surface and followed the robot out.

I know that some type of robot was tried but that failed as the robot was not designed and tested for the Saga situation.

I have mind, a 2 ft. tall, eight independent knobby tired, plastic vehicle dragging an umbilical that contained needed life saving and communications equipment. This vehicle would be designed with great care to avoid sparks due to the methane threat. The hard parts of the vehicle would be neoprene type plastic. The power would be a geared air compressor drive. All electrical components would be heavily shielded to avoid sparks. The machine would be on standby 24-7 at the mouth of the tunnel.
It might cost a million. But, that is peanuts compare to the life saving capabilities.

As it turned out, the rescuers could have walked right down to where the miners were located and led them out. As for the methane and bad air, the rescuers could have continually monitored the surrounding air for those noxious elements. Bad air was no problem as they would have been on auxiliary anyway. Methane was no problem as long as no igniting elements were present.

One doesn't have to be a mining expert to see that virtually no pre planning was involved in this rescue operation. It was ad libbed from start to finished as though there had never been another mining explosion. Mining is a very old form of engineering. There are hundreds of Americans who the knowledge and skill to put together equipment and plans to minimize the loss of life. In cases where the miners are actually killed immediately by the event, nothing could be done. But, where they are uninjured by the event are in a waiting situation, numerous forms of relief MUST be initiated IMMEDIATELY. They were only 260 ft. below the surface. Numerous air and communications holes should have been started and completed within a few hours. Isn't that possible?

[ohio_liberal]

43. Good point!

I talked to my uncle today who is also a WV coalminer. He wondered why they didn't walk out. There were no reports of an ongoing fire that would've been an obstacle, nor any reports of a major collapse. I imagine there was unventilated smoke from the blast but of course we don't know how bad it was.

This is not an attempt on my part to blame the victims. I want to understand what happened.

I also want to know why the hell it took 11 hours for a rescue crew with full breathing apparatus to even get into the mine.

And why, oh why, did they not pump clean air into the first 6" ventilation shaft? I realize that their attempt to make contact with the miners met with no response and they decided to dig other shafts, but damn, by all reports the miners were so close to the first shaft. Even if incapacitated they might've still been alive.