You are a woman walking in a building...

[jsamuel]

You are talking on your cell phone. You feel a male presence behind you. Suddenly a strong man grabs your arm from behind you. What do you do? Scream for help? Try to break free? Submit?



Given all this I don't know the whole situation, but this is what I think about when I hear of something like this.

[Never Forget]

1. I hope we get to see the tape...

The tape will tell the story. I'm hearing he called to her several times to stop, but who knows? He was in uniform. Since she hasn't been charged with anything as of yet, perhaps the tape proved her version of events.

[mondo joe]

2. Which building are you walking into?

Is it a security check point staffed by armed guards?

[jsamuel]

16. yes, a building where terrorists would love to take a congressman hostage

also

[mondo joe]

18. All the more reason to be VERY careful with security check points

and observe the rules.

[johnnie]

20. Yeah but rules are for suckers

Plus she was on her cell phone, so obviously she didn't have time for a stupid checkpoint.

[mondo joe]

22. She's so worried about security that she doesn't even notice

when someone calls out for someone to STOP at a security checkpoint.

[jsamuel]

32. I don't know what happened and neither do you, but you assume her guilt

I am assuming innocence until proven guilty for BOTH the officer and the woman.

[mondo joe]

35. What did I assume she is guilty of?

Guilt is a legal determination.

[radwriter0555]

26. Terrorists????? TERRORISTS??? ROFLMAO!

LOL... oh that's FUNNY!

Terrorists...

*snarf*

[jsamuel]

29. that is the reason they have the checkpoints, isn't it?

[radwriter0555]

42. No. The checkpoints are to keep the fear level as high as possible even

though the potential for terrorism is virtually non-existent.

[verse18]

56. Yeah, Cynthia McKinney looks like a "Terrarist" to me...

:sarcasm:

[MADem]

54. Too hard a target, with Cap police there

The only way a terrist is headed to that building is in a plane.

[Ecumenist]

3. I know I would yank away, fighting, scratching and biting ....

and trying to do some serious bodily harm to whomever it was trying to attack me, probably hitting a rather sensitive area with the phone. It wouldn't be pretty, trust me. You'd be reading about it.

[Rich Hunt]

4. wait a second...

Which incident are we talking about here?

[davsand]

5. I'll try to kick the shit out of him.

You ALWAYS have a free hand or leg. If you do have a free hand or foot, you can try and fight. Far better to avoid that situation to begin with, but if it comes up use your head and use what you can to fight.

Now if he holds a gun to my head it is a different story.

Many women really do not stop and think about what they would do in this kind of situation. Literally, I have also seen women say they would not fight back. As you can tell from my response, I do not share that attitude.

I studied martial arts for a time, and while I am not still in regular training, I would try and fight if faced with the kind of situation you describe.


Laura

On edit: How are you supposed to KNOW he's in uniform if he's behind you?

Further, I don't mean to be rude, but even IF he's in uniform, how are you suposed to know he's NOT a crazy anyhow? You don't have to be a cop to even buy uniforms. I have also known some rent-a-cops that were a few bricks short of a house...

[patdem]

6. I am a totally innocent woman fast walking in a building and I hear STOP

POLICE..I pick up the pace or lay flat down on the ground..and IF a MAN touched me I would figure I am in for being a hostage, cause I KNOW I am not the subject of the police STOP..so I could only be in line for being held hostage...just my take?

[Katherine Brengle]

39. You would run if someone yelled "Stop!"?????????

That doesn't even make sense.

[flyarm]

78. i am onto that take with you!!..its eactly what i have posted all day..

and any woman who has been through any security training would most likely do exactly the same thing...

fly

[Rainscents]

7. Mike Malloy will be at the Rally (Atlanta) with Cynthia and told his

listener (Friday night), he would personally will be talking with her and let us know the FACT! I will wait before I accuse someone.

[TomInTib]

8. Try slapping someone in a courthouse, airport, federal building...

I don't care who you may be or who you may be slapping, you will find yourself in serious trouble.

Try talking on your cell phone next time a cop pulls you over, even if you don't know why you are being pulled to the side of the road. For that matter, try to not show him your license and then explain that you are refusing to do so because of some personal hang-up you have.

She is fortunate to not have a big dent in the side of her head.

This is so silly it hurts.

[LostinVA]

27. Who got slapped?

I haven't seen any video tape. All I've heard is, first: she PUNCHED him... then, it was she hit him with her cell phone, then it was struck, now it's slapped. I believe her version -- she pushed him/straight-armed him. They keep on changing what happened, and I DO NOT BELIEVE IT. Because, if she did ANY of those things to a cop, she would have been at least detained right then. Period.

THis should have ended then. I bet everything I own that stuff like this has happened on occasion before, and that's it -- end of brohaha.... but hey, it's McKinney.

[TomInTib]

31. I didn't say she slapped him, that was just for illustration.

No matter if she pushed, punched, kicked, hit with purse/umbrella/neighbor's dog or whatever, it was a dumb stunt on her part.

Do you truly believe this was all made up?

And no, they would never detain a member of Congress on something so minor. If she was merely Jane Citizen, she would have been in a world of trouble.

And not wearing her Congressional Pin (the ONLY member to refuse to do so) is just so... McKinney.

Please don't get me wrong, I really like her. Hell, I donated to her last campaign and I live in California. I was so pissed at the way she had been mistreated.

But this was one dumbass stunt and just feeds the racist hate machine.

And you can bet your whatever that there is video.

[LostinVA]

40. Video that the cops have said they refuse to release

Isn't THAT interesting???

And, yes, I think the incident has been dramatically spun and spun and spun.... until it bears little resemblance to the actual incident...

[TomInTib]

41. Yeah, it has turned into a circus.

I hope the McKinney camp doesn't let anything do them any political harm on this. And I am glad the issue has the weekend to cool down.

[flyarm]

84. maybe it seems to be to you..you are a man and not trained like women are

to defend themselves!

and if a cop tried to pull me over and it was dark or night time..he is damn well going to have to follow me to a gas station or a police station because i am not stopping for anyone at night..

remember..many women have been raped by fake cops in fake uniforms..and for that matter some terrorists have been known to have stolen cop uniforms..and pilot uniforms!!

and i do not care who comes up from behind me..if they touch me or grab me..they are going to pay for it dearly with the training i have now through my employer..and personal training..

i will agressively attack like my life depends on it..because it just may...its how women are being taught today and socialized ..and more times than not.. it will save that womans life!

fly

[johnnie]

9. You are a Capitol police officer working a security checkpoint...

..at a House office building in D.C. You get paid to screen people as they walk past your checkpoint and if you fail, someone could get killed or worse. A person walks by that you don't recognize and you tell them to stop, you tell them twice more and they ignore you. Do you shrug your shoulders and let them pass?

Given the information I have seen so far, this is how it appears to me.

[BuyingThyme]

10. The next time you're waiting in line at the post office,

and somebody taps you on the shoulder to tell you there's an open window at the end of the counter, just smack them with your cell phone. Call it the McKinney standard.

A proud day for a few DUers.

[johnnie]

11. Shoot and ask questions later

The new DU mantra.

[mondo joe]

12. And to THINK so many on DU were so opposed to laws that let

people do just that.

[oasis]

38. Excellent (anal)ogy.

:eyes:

[BuyingThyme]

43. I see you're staying with your anything but honesty approach.

[oasis]

49. Yeah, being abused by a cop is somewhat like getting a tap on the shoulder

at the post office in a non-confrontational situation. Now there's honesty for ya. :think:

[BuyingThyme]

52. She wasn't abused.

McKinney's argument is not that she was abused, it's that she's above the law. She doesn't understand how somebody as important as herself is can be detained and "touched." That's her whole argument, and it's shameful.

Why do you feel that you have to make things up?

[oasis]

57. In Cynthia's position she can't use the word "abused" so I'll do it for

her. Her description of events coupled the malicious intent of the cop has lead me to that conclusion.

Harrasment is a form of abuse.

[BuyingThyme]

59. Okay, tell us why Cynthia McKinney can't use the word ABUSED.

Make it good, you're really out there now.

Then, if you have time, explain the "malicious intent."

[oasis]

62. Like any politician, Cynthia has to watch her words. I don't. If the cop

didn't recognize her,(which is unlikely)he should have asked another guard to ID her before going into his macho, "I'm so in charge" act.I get the idea that his general attitude stunk from the very beginning.

edit for spelling

[mondo joe]

65. Interesting question. I hadn't thought of it before, but in terms of

relative power and authority, McKinney outstrips a security guard by quite a bit.

Usually if a superior hits someone with less power THEY are considered the abuser.

[oasis]

70. "relative power" man vs. woman. Was the guard Danny Devito?

[mondo joe]

73. I don't know how things work where you live, but in my country relative

power in the workplace is not determined by gender or size.

[oasis]

79. I'm talking about real life situation. Size and gender would matter to a

jury, not technical terminology. Common sense also comes into play here.

[mondo joe]

81. We ARE talking about a real life situation.

I wasn't talking about them being alone on a desert island.

I was talking about them in the context of their working relationship and potential power for retaliation or damage.

Those would be among the standards in consideration of workplace harassment.

[mondo joe]

53. Please describe the ways in which she was "abused".

Thank you.

[oasis]

58. Harassment is a form of abuse.

And you're welcome.

[BuyingThyme]

60. What evidence do you have of any harassment?

Where do you get this nonsense?

[oasis]

64. Read the account of what happened. Like a Supreme Court judge

said about obsenity, "I know it when I see it". Same with harassment. You probably need to get around more.

[mondo joe]

67. It was a lame ass thing for a judge to say too.

[oasis]

74. Perhaps the judge was applying his "judgement".

:think:

[mondo joe]

76. You remember that the next time some art is censored or a protest

is deemed illegal because it's some sort of threat -- no need to argue the law or the merits, they just "know it when they see it".

[oasis]

83. I'm just using the judge's ruling as an example. Anyway, I gotta go

see the rest of the UCLA game. I'm sure we can come to some agreement on other issues.

Nice talking to ya. :hi:

[mondo joe]

61. Playing fast and loose with language, I see.

And asking to see ID - ID you are supposed to be wearing - is not harassment.

Though it may be that she is harassing the officer.

[oasis]

69. Chasing her down when he should have known (and probably did know)

who she was, is harassment. He just wanted to be the big macho cop in charge.

Now tell me why this guy didn't know who she was when that's supposed to be part of his job.:think:

[mondo joe]

72. I can think of a whole lot of reasons he might not have recognized her.

But even if he should have and failed to do so, that's a mistake and not harassment.

I know people who are required to wear an ID badge to get around their workplace. Even though they are known to the security people they have to comply with the requirement and it's security's job to limit access of they don't.

[oasis]

86. Your workplace is not the capitol. They are trained to know who you are.

Anyway I'm missing the UCLA game. Catch you later.

:hi:

[mondo joe]

87. The Capitol is a workplace.

[DS1]

88. Bingo

She was out of line, literally and figuretively

[MrPrax]

13. Submit of course...

The State will protect you!!

Using 'violence' to defend yourself is illegal...you must submit to the authority of the 'state's monopoly' of violence.

Don't use violence to defend your person...have blinding faith in the State to protect you.

Don't question 'power' and the 'use of violence'; if you don't submit, then society will break apart.

Do Not Resist!!

[mondo joe]

14. Yes, and carry a gun annd shoot at anyone who looks funny - otherwise

you're just an unquestioning dupe. :eyes:

It's bad enough when Freeps suggest violent responses when a civil one will do just fine. It's worse when Dems do it.

[MrPrax]

17. No kidding...

I found it disturbing as well that no one seems to want to question whether the 'violence' employed by the 'guards' was appropriate in this small matter.

I wonder how many of these patriots would so 'forgiving' if they got grabbed by, say, some fat thug in a store, who thinks he saw you shoplifting.

He turns out to be completely wrong, but that still doesn't stop him from insinuating that 'your twisted and bruised arm' is a necessary adjunct to 'store security' or he, because he is NOT MAN enough to admit a mistake, decides to harass you anyway and 'perp' walking you to the back of the store 'just to sort things out'.

So you end up injured and humilated because some fat stupid thug says it's his job to hurt and humilate you--this happens all the time, especially to black people.

(Keep in mind of course that since Bush is so roundly hated, their are a lot of 'newcomers' to the DU family; they are not trolling, they are now democrats.)

[mondo joe]

19. The guard did his job - he first asked her to stop and when that

didn't work he grabbed her arm.

If he was excessive or inappropriate, the Congresswoman should address it through the legal channels available to her.

[lpbk2713]

15. Reflexes should take over with a kick to the groin.

That was a real bad move on the part of the so-called security guard.

[OnyxCollie]

21. Do I look really hot?

Because if that's the case, it's my fault for leaving the house without my burka. Please commence with the beatings. Always blame the victim.:sarcasm:

[johnnie]

23. Yeah, no shit

So far this cop has been accused of being a racist, a misogynist, a women beater, an out of control cop, stupid for not knowing all 500 plus faces of people there, working for the pukes (bribed) and we haven't heard from this person yet. Yes, always blame the victim. Who is the victim?

[KittyWampus]

24. RIGHT- We haven't heard from the cop. So how do we know he yelled STOP?

[johnnie]

25. Exactly

We don't know many of the real facts, but yet it seems easier for many of the people here to blame the cops automatically based on only one side of the story.

[jsamuel]

28. did i blame the cop? NO F*CKING WAY! I said that those who ignore the

fact that a woman being grabed from behind may be EXPECTED to react the way she did. I don't think anyone has the right to attack me like they did on this board. I am very disappointed in many of you.

[mondo joe]

30. I'm very disappointed that anyone thinks physical attack is the

appropriate response to simply feeling someone catch your arm mid day in a very public secure building.

[jsamuel]

33. well then I guess you have never been attacked by someone like many have

in a public building/area

If she knew it was a cop, then that could seriously change the story.

[mondo joe]

34. I'm sorry but if your first response to being touched in that setting is

to attack there is something really wrong with you, IMO, and you ought to not put yourself in settings where you'll have inappropriate responses.

[jsamuel]

36. Right, like don't wear a short skirt if you don't want to get raped, right

?

[mondo joe]

37. What a stupid false analogy. Very, very low of you.

If you can't stop yourself from having inappropriate reactions from perfectly normal contact, don't put yourself where that's likely to happen.

I have several times visited similar areas of my state capital. They are bustling places in session, and you'd expect to be bumped into and touched.

Attacking someone in a place like that as a response to being touched is completely inappropriate.

That has NOTHING to do with your fallacious "short skirt" analogy. You should be ashamed.

[jsamuel]

44. you said if you don't want to be attacked (because you are scared) you

shouldn't go out in a public place

That is nearly the same thing as what I posted.

This is basically what you were saying:
Someone who is scared of being attacked shouldn't go out in public if they interpret someone grabbing them from behind as a possible attack.

[mondo joe]

45. That is NOT what I said. Try actually reading what I wrote.

"I'm sorry but if your first response to being touched in that setting is to attack there is something really wrong with you, IMO, and you ought to not put yourself in settings where you'll have inappropriate responses."

I didn't say anything about fear -- I said something about the ability to behave appropriately.

If your response to being touched in a busy area in a secure, guarded in mid day is to physically attack whoever touched you without regard to who they are or why you were touched, then you are a menace and should seek to avoid such areas.

That has zero to do with blaming innocent victims for being attacked.

[rpgamerd00d]

46. "You are a cop guarding access to congressional chambers..."

A person you do not recognize bypasses the metal detector and heads for the inner chambers. This person does not have the proper ID to bypass the detector (the pin).

You scream "STOP!" but the person is on a cell phone and doesn't respond.

You rush towards the person yelling "STOP!" again, but still no response.

You manage to intercept the person, juxtaposing your body between them and the inner chambers, grabbing their arm and yell "STOP!" one more time.

The person wrenches their arm from your grasp, her hand with the phone making contact with your chest.

You demand ID. She produces a Congresional ID.

You say "Ok, you may go" and let her go.




Clearly you are part of a vast racist conspiracy to defame this specific woman, and should be fired.
:sarcasm:

[jsamuel]

50. Then, you press charges.

"Clearly you are part of a vast racist conspiracy to defame this specific woman, and should be fired."

Never said anything about the cop being wrong, race, defaming anywhere with any of my statements. You are having an argument with someone else.

[mondo joe]

51. To press charges you have to stop the person trying to get through

security. And they're not responding to your words.

[rpgamerd00d]

55. Here is the relevant law regarding Congresspeople

Section 6. The Senators and Representatives shall receive a compensation for their services, to be ascertained by law, and paid out of the treasury of the United States. They shall in all cases, except treason, felony and breach of the peace, be privileged from arrest during their attendance at the session of their respective Houses, and in going to and returning from the same; and for any speech or debate in either House, they shall not be questioned in any other place.

Just so you know.

[Zookeeper]

66. "..[J]uxtaposing your body between them and the inner...

chambers." Exactly. If you think someone can't hear you or didn't notice you, you get IN FRONT of them and get their attention.

[jsamuel]

68. ding ding ding

or you should be trained to do so

[flyarm]

94. she did have proper i.d. congressional badge and she showed it!

what part of that are you not getting????????????????????

fly

[miss_american_pie]

47. Are there people around?

Do I work in this building? Am I so engrossed in my conversation that I'm not paying any attention at all?

There are two many unknowns to be able to say how I would react.

[mondo joe]

48. Do you support the Florida "Shoot First" law?

That's the law that says if you feel threatened you can shoot someone even on the street.

[Zookeeper]

63. I don't know the details of what happened to Rep. McKinney...

So, I will answer purely for myself: If I were walking in a building that had lots of people around, I wouldn't freak if someone GENTLY grasped my arm. If someone tightly grabbed my arm, I'm sure I'd wheel around and confront them. And probably smack them if they didn't let go. So, I think a big question here is: how much force did the security guard use?

If I were walking in a place that was deserted, there is no way I would be talking on a cell phone at the same time. I would be on high alert and ready to defend myself.

[jsamuel]

71. right, and a cop should be trained to anticipate that a woman might react

that way to physical force from behind, especially if he is a man.

"situational avoidance"

[mondo joe]

75. It's quite insulting to suggest that women are irrational panics who

can't assess a situation before responding.

[jsamuel]

77. no, I haven't beaten my wife recently

Thanks for the accusatory reply to something that you are giving no input on.

It is perfectly rational to react that way. It isn't irrational at all. That is the whole point. A woman getting charged for reacting in a rational manner to being grabbed from behind.

[mondo joe]

80. Nothing rational about it.

The halls are often crowded and busy. It would often be hard to get through such areas without some physiicial contact.

This is a security check point, not a dark alley or night time park.

Hitting someone is an inappropriate response to being touched in that setting.

[jsamuel]

82. Then you are saying women are irrational, not me.

[mondo joe]

85. Not at all, since that isn't a universal female reaction.

It's an inappropriate reaction that is, fortunately, not common to men or to women.

[jsamuel]

89. Now please stop it. I said "many women" and to suggest I said "universal"

is just plain disingenuous.

[mondo joe]

90. In your last post you said I was insulting "women". Not "many women".

And either way you're wrong.

Most of the women I know are too smart to behave in the ways you described.

You're not describing women, but an irrational response.

[jsamuel]

91. you said i called women irrational, i was responding to that

you are more interrested in beating me up than trying to resolve the problem

conversation over

[mondo joe]

92. Yadda yadda yadda.

Goodnight.

[izzybeans]

93. Apparently anything except shaking your lovely lady lumps is assault.

...with a cell phone or whatever.