OMG No DNA Match (lacross)

[sproutster]

No links yet.

[Midlodemocrat]

1. Link here:

http://abcnews.go.com/

[EVDebs]

12. Direct link

http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/LegalCenter/wireStory?id=1827739

[Neil Lisst]

2. but no DNA checked on one of the 47, right?

that's what I heard them say on CNN, that one of the 47 didn't give DNA??

[Jersey Devil]

8. Yes, a black team member, but the woman said her rapers were white

so why make the black guy submit to a test under those circumstances?

It is still possible there were guests there other than team members who might match.

[Neil Lisst]

9. I just read that, and was about amend my post.

Authorities ordered 46 of the 47 players on Duke's lacrosse team to submit DNA samples to investigators. Because the woman said her attackers were white, the team's sole black player was not tested.

[Scout1071]

75. Didn't they say that one of the (alleged) attackers wasn't on the team?

Dunno....just what I picked up late last week or over the weekend.

[sproutster]

3. Oh this makes me so angry.

It just fuels the naysayers and buries the women. :(

I hope they charge the hell out of her.

[xultar]

5. Well now we know. They should charge her ass.

[lastliberalintexas]

11. No, we still really don't know

This is simply what the defense attorneys are saying. And from the article it sounds as though the defense attorneys had the testing performed? Now that is very strange, so I'd like to hear more on this.

[xultar]

13. I read @ the link. The DNA is from the state crime lab and the results

were given to the prosecutors as well.

[lastliberalintexas]

20. Yes, I read the story below just now

I thought the blurb said delivered to, rather than by!

Very strange indeed. Though there still isn't enough evidence for me to be in favor of charging her with a crime either, as it would still need to be investigated to determine if she truly was raped, even if not by a lacrosse team member.

And I actually chastised a few posters and lectured in my horrible way about the presumption of innocence in a few of these threads, so I'm certainly not one of the pitchfork crowd. But unless this is indeed a very elaborate hoax, that young woman did truly seem to have been raped.

[xultar]

197. I just realised that I need to make sure to withhold judgement on

both parts in this case till all evidence comes in. Something tells me that the complete story isn't in the blurb released by the defense.

[LostinVA]

98. This doesn't prove she wasn';t raped, nor that some of the players did it

LOts of people in both DNA threads REALLY eager to jump on the "hoax" bandwagon.

[LostinVA]

97. Why charge her??? This doesn't prove she wasn't raped

All this proves is that there was no DNA evidence present to link the players to the rape. It doesn't even mean THEY didn't rape her. The odds are very good she was raped -- rape injuries aren't something you can easily fake well enough to fool medical and legal professionals. The DA said days ago there was plenty of evidence showing rape had occurred.

So, take your anger out on whomever it was that raped her.

[jukes]

134. still w/ you lost

DNA isn't the only evidence to convict on.

[LostinVA]

139. Thanks, Jukes -- I like a law enforcement POV

on these threads

[Savannah Progressive]

278. Certainly True

However it would be difficult to convict if the DNA evidence showed no match with any of the named suspect so far. I can say if I was a member of the Jury, I would likely believe that the woman was attacked, even raped, however the identity of the attacker would be in question. I for one would have to think that the DNA match, or no match, would be significant enough to create that widely sought after "reasonable doubt" that the accused is the guilty party.

Like most people, I am willing to affix guilt to someone, I just try and affix it to the right someone.

[LostinVA]

286. Many people on this and the other thread are saying rape didn't happen

This proves the woman is a liar, a scammer, a whore who didn't get paid, or whose pimp raped and beat her. It's disgusting. It should be a huge leap between the DNA results and claiming any of that.

[ThomCat]

292. Far too many people get offended

when anyone is convicted of rape. As an immediate knee-jerk reaction they're attacking the victim and protecting the accused.

They demand impossible levels of proof they would never require in other situations. How many of these people who think conviction is impossible without DNA were possitive OJ was guilty?

No wonder there is no justice for people who have been raped.

[LostinVA]

296. You're a good man, Thomcat... I mean that

You put it perfectly...

[Savannah Progressive]

294. Rape is the one criminal offense where the tables are turned

Instead of the Jury presuming innocence, society is conditioned to assume guilt, at the mearest claim of Rape.

When I have been called to serve the jury, I try to keep an open mind, and assume the accused is innocent until PROVEN GUILTY BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT. By Reasonable doubt, all the possible other senarios except Extraterrestials has been examined and rejected.

Now, I've stated that I believe the crime was committed, the woman has claimed it, and the Prosecutor states that he has medical evidence, which I take to mean a medical exam of the young woman.

I don't know WHO DID IT. I don't know means I don't know. It doesn't mean she is a lying, nor that she is a trollup, nor a whore, nor anything else. It means I DON'T KNOW.

What always bothers me, and pardon me for going off on a rant here, is anytime a claim of rape is offed, that far too many immediately condemn the male, long before ANY much less ALL evidence is in. I like our legal system as intended, if not as practiced. I like the ideal of presumtion of innocence for ALL ACCUSED. I like the idea of the PROSECUTOR PROVING THE GUILT OF THE ACCUSED, not of society, nor of the gender. If someone once hurt a person reading this, I am very sorry. I don't know what happened, and honestly it wouldn't matter in this situation, I am again sorry to say.

We have conflicting stories of what happened, and DNA evidence is one part that may help find the truth. It could prove the young ladies case, and it hasn't. If I were Juror, and your DNA evidence is inconclusive at best, you had better have something else. A statement from one of the boys admitting to the event would be good. I understand that we have no such statement. Short of that, the medical evidence indicates that the woman was raped. Not who, not when, not where, but what.

I would like to address this last part specifically to LOSTINVA. I replied to your post, but this is not directed solely at you. It's a comment on our society, that you opened the door to. I am hoping to speak to the room at large, not just the person opening the door. There must be an equitability to criminal cases, the victims are justly represented, but the accused is also justly represented, and convicted not because of outrage at the nature of the crime, but because of the EVIDENCE OF THE SPECIFIC CRIME that he is accused of. Thanks for reading, and thank you for your imput and opinion, they are valued.

[LostinVA]

298. I understand your POV, Savannah

I guess Thomcat put it best -- sometimes it does seem there's the opposite reaction you described when teh victim has a "past" or a "dubious present" -- where impossible levels of proof are demanded. It's been especially upsetting when this happens on DU, as it has in some of these threads. I'm not meaning you, btw - peace! This is very societal, and I hope to the gods it disappears soon...

[jukes]

306. although

DNA evidence is the trendiest fpom of evidemce extant, it cam be defeayed by the use of condoms, etc.


many other forms of evidence are quite as telling, esp eye-witness accounts of the parties NOT involved in the rape, the circumstance of the grotesque threatening emai, et al.

at this point, only a jury can decide.

[Richard Steele]

4. Durham Herald-Sun link:

http://www.herald-sun.com/firstnews/37-722531.html


DURHAM, N.C. -- There is no DNA match between members of Duke University's men's lacrosse team and an exotic dancer who told police she was raped at a team party, attorneys for the team said Monday.

Citing DNA test results delivered by the state crime lab to police and prosecutors a few hours earlier, the attorneys said the test results prove their clients did not sexually assault and beat a stripper hired to perform at a March 13 team party.

No charged have been filed in the case.

"No DNA material from any young man was present on the body of this complaining woman," said defense attorney Wade Smith.

[rocktivity]

6. That's what the defense is saying

I'm waiting until the prosecution concurs.

:headbang:
rocknation

[blondeatlast]

14. Great minds, RN. I had to be writing mine as you were posting yours. nt

[elehhhhna]

26. Yep. Wake me up when they drop the investigation.

[genie_weenie]

7. As always the innocent until proven guilty didn't matter...

The worst thing is how unfortunate this whole issue will be for the many women who have been victimized by athletes.

[blondeatlast]

10. And the source for this information is.. get ready for it.. hope you're

sitting down...

THE DEFENSE LAWYER.

Who would have no interest in trying this case in the media, obviously...

:sarcasm:

Until I hear the same from the prosecutors and/or the police, I'm unconvinced of their innocence--or guilt.

[WinkyDink]

15. No DNA doesn't disprove penetration per se, does it?

[Jersey Devil]

19. No, it doesn't and DA says he may prosecute anyway

"District Attorney Mike Nifong stopped speaking with reporters last week after initially talking openly about the case, including stating publicly that he was confident a crime occurred. He went on to say he would have other evidence to make his case should the DNA analysis prove inconclusive or fail to match a member of the team."
http://www.herald-sun.com/firstnews/37-722531.html

As a practical matter, however, there would have to be some pretty strong forensic evidence to bring a case with no DNA matches, maybe something like one of the perps having scratch marks on his body consistent with the victim's fingernails, etc.

In a rape case though where the victim was beaten, etc., you'd think there'd be some kind of DNA found at the scene like blood, skin scrapings, hair, etc. It is entirely possible that there were guests there who were not team members who might match the DNA. If they tested for a DNA match, doesn't that also mean that investigators DID collect some DNA other than that of the students tested and the victim?

[cali]

21. No, it doesn't, but it sure as hell

casts reasonable doubt that there was a rape. I stayed off the Duke/Lacross/rape threads because too many people were so damned sure that the athletes were guilty. I preferred to wait for an investigation. I'm glad I did. If she did make a false accusation, she's made things immeasuably worse for the next young woman who does get raped by college athletes.

[Richard Steele]

30. "DNA" from 2 accused was found in bathroom where she claimed rape

occurred...

DUer LEX saw the live conference here on local tv, no transcript yet.

So it looks like the Defense might just be splitting hairs
when they said there was no DNA on the victim.

And the DA has said all along that his case did not need DNA,
that he already had other evidence to move foreward with.

[Jersey Devil]

31. Would also depend on where in the bathroom

Obviously if they found it on the sink or toilet bowl it would mean nothing. BTW, what do you mean by "2 of the accused"? I thought no one had been accused yet.

[sproutster]

37. 3 men using fake names are "accused" dna to sort them out, I think.

This case is hell in a handbasket. Three men - names of lacross players, just not their own names, dna, no arrests, no dna on stripper.

I thought they needed the dna to prove who the three men were?

[Jersey Devil]

42. The real question - Was there ANY DNA on the victim's body

If there was no DNA at all that could be tested found on her either of hair, semen, blood, skin under her nails, etc., that doesn't mean she wasn't raped, just that there were no samples available, though I think the case would be very, very difficult for the prosecutor. On the other hand, if there was DNA that belonged to someone other than the players on her body they should be completely exonerated for rape (though not necessarily for covering it up if they had knowledge of it).

[joeunderdog]

182. According to this part of the longer article, "None."

"They swabbed about every place they could possibly swab from her, in which there could be any DNA," he said.

Cheshire said even if the alleged attackers used a condom, it's likely there would have been some DNA evidence found suggesting an assault took place. He said in this case, the report states there was no DNA on her to indicate that she had sex of any type recently.

"The experts will tell you that if there was a condom used they would still be able to pick up DNA, latex, lubricant and all other types of things to show that and that's not here," Cheshire said.

[LostinVA]

103. It was a towel and a bath mat... and Lex seemed to get that it was semen

[jberryhill]

110. Not to be indelicate, but...

...if traces of semen were found on a towel and a bathmat in the bathroom of a house occupied by college-age men, it would be a very unsurprising find.

[Jersey Devil]

116. after a party with strippers no less

The only DNA that will prove anything in this case is if it was found on the alleged victim.

What I want to know is if they found any DNA whatsoever that did not belong to her on her body. If so, that should completely exonerate the players from rape charges.

[LostinVA]

137. I personally think the Defense attorney would have said that

Because of that every reason. He didn't. Also, the "not on the body"? Does that mean some WAS found on her clothing?

[Jersey Devil]

143. That certainly would be strong evidence for the prosecution

but if that were the case I would think the prosecutor would have said something. That he is silent does not look good for the prosecution.

[jberryhill]

235. The longer quote...

"None of the students' DNA was found on the woman or on any of her clothing or possessions or under her fingernails, the lawyers said."

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/10/sports/othersports/10cnd-duke.html?hp&ex=1144728000&en=23db13610da90402&ei=5094&partner=homepage


So that settles it. They must have found DNA all over her shoes, because they didn't mention shoes.

[LostinVA]

129. I understand that, I'm just saying semen was found at the crime scene

[BrownOak]

201. and you base that on???

Let me get this straight - because another poster, who has no more knowledge of the case than anyone else who has listened to the news conference, states that the in the presser the defense attorneys admitted there was DNA from two of the suspects in the bathroom, you're now stating that semen was found at the crime scene? Where the **** do you get that?

Here's what the information from the state's report said today -

*There was no DNA from any of the tested individuals on the body, in the body, on the surface of the body, or on the clothing or other possessions of the alleged victim.

*There was no DNA from any of the accused young men on the fingernails of the alleged victim.

*There was no DNA from the alleged victim in the room where she claimed she was raped.

*There was no DNA on the alleged victim that would indicate she had engaged in sex recently.

Offsetting that we have Lex's read on the press conference. Hey, full speed ahead!

[jberryhill]

246. No. What Lex Said in LBN was...

"He didn't say what kind of DNA he was speaking of but I figured semen but he didn't say so."

On which basis you then asserted it several times in this thread as fact.

There is an insanely simple fluorescence test for semen traces on environmental surfaces, but I still can't for the life of me figure out what finding evidence of semen on towels or a bath mat, or frankly anywhere else in a college males' bathroom would demonstrate. I'd be shocked if there wasn't evidence of semen in there.

Elswhere you "guarantee" she passed a lie detector test, even though neither the DA nor the defense has mentioned such a thing.

I want to get on the psychic evidence channel here, because obviously it would make this case a lot clearer.

Evidence from the hospital of physical injuries to the victim demonstrate that the victim suffered injuries prior to being in the hospital. It does not demonstrate injuries sustained at the party. The defense claims to have photographs of the victim arriving at the party with injuries already evident.

There is something odd about the claim that no DNA was found on her clothing. If she had removed her clothing to strip, then one might expect it to pick up hair, dander, and whatever else from furniture, carpet, or upon whatever else in the house the clothing was placed.

[LostinVA]

259. Why are you being so personally sarcastic?

No reason to be. I never fucking said I was psychic. Oooh... sorry if I misunderstood what Lex said... sorry I'm not sooo perfect like you.

I do guarantee she passed a polygraph, and that she has injuries consistent with gang rape. I have an ex who works in an NC DA's office, and that's their SOP. ESPECIALLY if the rape victim has "a past."

My point is, she was raped.

Get over yourself, Mr. Shedding Skin Cells.

[jberryhill]

260. Sarcastic?

"Oooh... I just felt a billion skin cells rejuvenate as I wrote this"

And that was what? Informative?

I'd like to know what the facts of this situation are.

As I mentioned above, if she had stripped in the house then it seems odd that her clothing picked up nothing.

What are the "injuries consistent with gang rape" and how do they differ from injuries otherwise consistent with rape by a single assailant? I hadn't seen that distinction in earlier reports, so what did I miss?

[blondeatlast]

43. Note that the defense attorney is choosing hios words VERY carefully.

"No DNA material from any young man was present on the body of this complaining woman," said defense attorney Wade Smith.

All emphasis mine.

"..this complaining woman."??? What interesting phrasing, but again, the defense would never try to try this case in the media, would they? Naaaah... :sarcasm: /end sarcasm.

This part of the story, NOT from the defense attorney's statement, DOESN'T rule out DNA recovered elsewhere.

The alleged victim, a 27-year-old student at nearby North Carolina Central University, told police she and another woman were hired to dance at the party. The woman told police that three men at the party dragged her into a bathroom, choked her, raped her and sodomized her.

[Jersey Devil]

47. How would DNA in a bathroom be relevant other than on her body?

A house full of students drinking beer and if they find their DNA in the bathroom, say on the toilet, sink or floor, that proves they are the rapists?

[blondeatlast]

65. Let me make this perfectly clear--I'm parsing the

defense attorney's very carefully chosen words.

I've studied linguistics and it's a hobby and it's very, very relevant in terms of public statements.

I do that with what GWB says, too, you know.

[jberryhill]

89. then learn the relevant vocabulary

...because a person who files a criminal complaint is the complaining party. If that person is a woman, then the person filing the complaint is a complaining woman. But you seem to have a problem with the normal vocabulary.

I really doubt the defense attorney is going to say "victim", and this isn't a civil case, so he isn't going to say "plaintiff".

Obviously, they took swabs from the team, swabs from the bathroom, and swabs from all over the house. Obviously, and of course, they found DNA from the team on the swabs from the team and from the house. So the attorney said that none of the team's DNA was found on the body of the complaining woman.

Does any of this prove/disprove there was a rape? No. But it is a perfectly unexceptionally phrased and accurate statement. DNA would only be relevant if they found it on her.

Did they find the teams DNA somewhere? Of course they did. In the cells of the team members and likely on every environmental surface of the house in which they live.

You are continuously shedding skin cells, and you replace your entire epidermis about every month. Think about it. Your entire hide rubs off in your bed and falls all over your house every single month. You'd have to be some sort of crazy obsessive-compulsive housekeeper for your DNA not to be found all over your house, including your bathroom, and your typical college student is not that.

[Kailassa]

118. "Complaining woman" is not a term generally used in legal matters.

Neither is "complaining man". Complainant, plaintiff and complaining party are frequently used, but try finding another case where the plaintiff is referred to as a complaining woman. If you do, I guarantee it is another case where the person using that term has an interest in besmirching the woman's character.

You are being disingenuous to try to persuade us the term is used because of its legality.
It is a highly emotive term, and is very insulting to the woman to whom the prosecutor is referring.

[blondeatlast]

152. Precisely--the accepted legal term (I've done legal writing and research,

btw) is "camplainant" and it is used almost exclusively in CIVIL cases, not criminal.

The way the defense att'y used it was quite intentional. It's intended to paint the alleged victim as a whiner (she was bruised and cut, for pity's sakes) and overly sensitive.

I'm still not choosing sides here, just deconstructing the defense attorney's public statement, in which he chose the language so very carefully--kind of like GWB and friends do...

[jberryhill]

166. Congratulations, so have I

In fact, I am an attorney.

Commonwealth v. Bohannon
376 Mass. 90, 378 N.E.2d 987 (1978)
http://www.law.harvard.edu/publications/evidenceiii/cases/c-v-bona.htm
Nor should this decision be viewed as indicating any adherence to that "part of a legal tradition, established by men, that the complaining woman in a rape case is fair game for character assassination in open court.'' Commonwealth v. Manning, 367 Mass. 605, 613-614, 328 N.E.2d 496, 501 (1975) (Braucher, J., dissenting).

Brian Gunderson v. Sheryl Ramstad Hvass, August 6, 2003
UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS
8TH CIRCUIT
The police investigation clearly established a lack of sexual contact between Mr. Gunderson and the complaining woman.

How many do you want? Clearly you know more than the Supreme Court of Massachusetts and the 8th Federal Circuit so far....

It's a common phrase in criminal cases where the complainant is a woman. The one on the "prosecuting" side of a CIVIL case is a plaintiff.

[blondeatlast]

169. I stand corrected. But I still maintain it was a bizarre use

in this context.

I bow to your attorneyness, though--I know my place.

May God have mercy. I made a mistake before an attorney. I'm doomed to the Seventh Circle of Hell.

[jberryhill]

179. It WAS carefully chosen...

...but put yourself in his place and think of what else you might use:

anything with "victim" is off the list.

"accuser"? That would also sound a bit tinged, like a character flaw.

I'm of the school that attorneys shouldn't make ANY public statements about their cases, and I haven't been watching this story closely, but I have seen plenty of pictures in the media of protestors making quite a case in the media.

The lack of any of the accuseds' DNA "on her" (yes, as opposed to anywhere else you'd normally expect to find it) doesn't prove the case either way, but I really don't know how else the defense attorney would phrase it.

[Kailassa]

186. It's easy. The common terms are complainant,

complaining party and plaintiff, none of which are emotively tainted.

I expect you are still looking for instances of "complaining man" being used.
Don't worry, I can wait for as long as it takes. :smoke:

Calling someone "the accused" is not ideal either, as people tend to equate accusation with guilt, but there is no other term possible that I know of.

[jberryhill]

206. Already posted below...

...but you didn't like it.

Get your own Lexis account.

[Kailassa]

222. Rudeness makes your words less convincing.

[jberryhill]

240. Rudeness?

Oh, I was just apologizing for keeping your snarky smiley waiting up there.

First you say the term "is not generally used", and then you switch to suggesting it IS generally used, and indicative of bias.

Bottom line - "complaining party", "complaining woman", "complaining man", "complainant", and all forms thereof are unexceptional.

[Neil Lisst]

247. What you get for letting people know what a "complainant" is!

The complainant IS the proper term, as you've noted. She's the person who filed the complaint. She could also be called the accuser. Defense side is unlikely to call her "victim," however.

At this point, we don't know if she's a victim, but we do know she's the complainant - the complaining woman, in this case.

[NVMojo]

266. jberryhill, are you working on this case? just wondering after looking

at the number of posts you have listed.

[jberryhill]

270. No

I'm a patent attorney in Pennsylvania.

Just bored at the end of the day.

If you have any other personal curiousities or insinuations to make having nothing to do with this subject, do feel free to ask.

[Kailassa]

175. And, as I expected, both your examples refer to rape cases.

As the posts on this topic have shown, many men automatically look down on anyone claiming to be a rape victim, and, consciously or unconsciously, the language is chosen accordingly.

How many legal cases can you find in which the complainant is called: "the complaining man"?

[jberryhill]

184. Are you serious?

You are joking, right?

Oregon v. Black
6/17/1986
1986.OR.42021 ; 80 Or. App. 12; 721 P.2d 842
In State v. Lindstrom, supra, on which both parties rely, a man flagged down a police officer during an early morning patrol and reported that the driver of a yellow Ford pickup truck was driving recklessly and had nearly run him off the road. He also stated that he had argued with the driver and that the driver appeared intoxicated and had aimed a rifle at him. The complaining man declined to give his name, and the police officer was unable to record his license plate number.

So, like, I get it... any normal guy should be just fine with a drunk pointing a rifle at him, but this "complaining man" must have been a pansy, so we unconsciously use condescending language.

Good golly.

[Kailassa]

194. I'd say exactly the same in this case.

The term is rarely used, and it is insulting.

Many police are already overworked, and can get quite annoyed at people who make a complaint but then won't give any details which would make an investigation possible.

So yes, it's quite possible that a policeman would use condescending language about a man who stopped the policeman's car to make a complaint, but then would not give a name, and somehow prevented the policeman from getting his license plate number.

[jberryhill]

Gee, I hope you don't start looking at medical case histories

...because every single one of them starts with someone complaining about something.

Damn patients and their complaints....

[joeunderdog]

189. I agree, and the same is true when the tables are turned.

We see cases (just this week) when a 34 year old female teacher "has sex" with a male student. They don't call it molesting or rape. Just "sex." If the genders were reversed, would the perception or penalty be the same?

Yes, I believe that there are gender-based double standards in courts...in many instances.

[sproutster]

192. The absolute WORST I have seen is calling a 12 year old boy "the lover of"

the perpetrator. It was on EVERY G'DAMN NEWS CHANNEL. Two boys and a molester -- They couldn't decide who killed the dad, so they tried the boys together and the molester seperately to see "what would stick."

[Kailassa]

203. I couldn't agree more.

Many men in the relevant threads were saying it was all fine because they would love to have had a spunky teacher do that to them.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I would think a boy could be just as damaged by that as a girl could.
There may be some boys who would not have problems afterwards, just as there may be some girls who might not, but to let perpetrator off lightly in either case is ridiculous.

Nobody who is in a position of responsibility with children and who betrays their trust in that way should ever get away with it. And they should never be allowed to work around children again.

I have vulnerable sons, so I have very strong thoughts on the matter.

And I know a man who claims that being raped by a young woman when he was 14 left him messed up for life. The ridicule he has experienced when he's tried to confide in friends about it has certainly not helped.

[Name removed]

265. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

271. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[lastliberalintexas]

283. You can laugh at the fact that precise language is expected

in legal matters? I guess I'm not getting the big deal here, or why such disdain was shown to a member of the bar who simply pointed out that the language used was a legal *term of art* rather than the vernacular. :shrug:

[Name removed]

285. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jberryhill]

291. Irrelevant personal attack.

It merely explains why some common legal terms don't strike me as "loaded".

The quote under discussion, which was truncated, included unexceptional terms for a legal proceeding, and pointing that out hardly calls for an empty stereotypical insult.

[LostinVA]

155. I thought that when I read it -- they were being "cute"

[blondeatlast]

156. It's worse than that--read my post just above yours. nt

[LostinVA]

172. Yup n/t

[NVMojo]

264. jberryhill, are you an attorney? If not, watch them closely ...

good attorneys are good at playing with words.

[jberryhill]

269. Yes, I am; and so is the DA who is running for re-election.

The DA certainly had a lot of words for the press and TV appearances.

The DA office's words in the court application for the DNA testing were:

"The DNA evidence requested will immediately rule out any innocent persons, and show conclusive evidence as to who the suspect(s) are in the alleged violent attack upon this victim."

Those are the words of the prosecutor, not a defense attorney.

[Neil Lisst]

297. This DA is in way over his head, and he's about to get the same ..

... the same beatdown that loser in Colorado got when he faced off with Kobe.

Any rational person who (1) read his affidavit, and (2) read the DNA results, and (3) read the warrant's affidavit regarding how she described the "rape" could only conclude she lied, it didn't happen, and the DA thought the DNA would be there for sure.

The lack of DNA to support her version of what happened is the reason this case is over. The DA may keep it alive for months, but it is OVER unless there is a video tape of her being raped that suddenly appears.

This case will never pass the smell test in front of 12 jurors. Those who argue there is no DNA in most cases are worshipping a false god. There IS DNA evidence in this case - exculpatory evidence - and it is coming into evidence in this case.

Given the email the one player sent, something may have happened in the house that was a crime, just not the crime alleged. Maybe he will be found guilty of something, but the case as it has been alleged is probably over. It may take months to die on the vine, but it's taken a fatal hit, IMHO.

[jberryhill]

299. The job has awesome power, and responsibility

"the same beatdown that loser in Colorado got"

No need to characterize the prosecutor that way.

On the one hand, a DA has the awesome power of the state to deprive you of life, liberty, and property, and must wield it responsibly. On the other hand, the DA has a duty to zealously represent the public interest.

As this DA has correctly stated, a conviction can be obtained on the mere basis of a jury believing the testimony of a victim. That is all one needs to proceed with a case, theoretically.

Well, that AND a reasonably identified defendant.

This investigation is incomplete. What's being discussed here are second-hand accounts of one piece of that investigation. Given that the DA himself raised expectations of the DNA testing, one wonders what else he might have, but the facts of any situation never line up as neatly as one might think they do.

What is unfortunate is that apparently some people have been hounded out of their home by protestors when there do seem to be real and legitimate questions about what happened. To the extent I care about one of these "baby down a well" news pieces that should be of local interest at best, I would like to know what happened without a lot of wishful thinking one way or the other, but this looks like one of those things that will be picked at for years without any satisfying conclusion being reached.

Surely it can be discussed by rational adults without insults or hyperbole.

[Neil Lisst]

300. I think that DA was a real loser.

The DA in Colorado, that is. That's my professional opinion, and you're entitled to yours.

He was a recent appointee who had never tried a serious case. He didn't have a clue what he was doing, he let the police lead him around by the nose, and he did things for political reasons.

And please stop being so preachy. You're making lawyers look bad, and since I'm one too, that matters to me. That habit you have of giving your opinions and telling others not to do likewise is downright annoying, and its presumptuous.

[jberryhill]

301. Sorry

"stop being so preachy"

It's a habit, that was my OTHER career option...

"You're making lawyers look bad"

Having had it flung at me as an insult, there's probably nowhere to go but up.

[Neil Lisst]

302. well, that will happen here

You will have it flung at you here. Lawyers are the one essential part of the Democratic party posters can freely bash here. Find any right we have, and at the center of it will be a bunch of lawyers working for free to keep it. Women, gays, blacks, hispanics, immigrants, blue collar workers, Jews, unions - we go to bat for everyone in the party, but the things people say here about lawyers are ... provincial.

[Richard Steele]

69. Dunno. It might be relevant to her claim that she was "sodomized"...

That word means 2 different things, and one of them
just might end up with DNA being spat onto the floor.

But as it was THEIR bathroom, how could you ever prove that? :shrug:

[TheWraith]

76. In that case, if there was DNA from the dancer present as well.

Saliva contains DNA, the same as most other things.

[Richard Steele]

83. Ahhh...I forgot the saliva!

And the lab report supposedly found NONE of her DNA there.
Good catch!

[Left Is Write]

187. As horrible as it is to think of...

she could also have been sodomized with something other than a human body part.

[Kailassa]

67. And she would not necessarily know if they were using condoms.

It's perfectly easy for a guy to take care his DNA is not left behind.
This is why the towels and bathmats had to be tested.

[Jersey Devil]

70. There are a lot of things we don't know

Yes, they could have worn condoms. But at the same time for all we know they DID recover semen when she was examined at the hospital. I think we should be more patient.

[TheWraith]

79. They would have to have recovered evidence

Otherwise, there would be nothing to compare the team's samples to. Therefore, someone not on the team would have had to leave the DNA, which opens up a whole host of questions.

[Jersey Devil]

82. Yes, it would have to be SOMEONE's DNA, wouldn't it?

The only possibility other than the DNA tested matching someone else is that it matches a non lacrosse player or that it all matches the victim.

[TheWraith]

119. Modern techniques can sequence enough to determine gender

So they could rule out any DNA from the victim.

[LostinVA]

108. And their DNA was found there

[jberryhill]

114. Yes, if you walk barefoot on a bath mat...

...your DNA will be found on the bath mat.

If you dry your hands on a towel, your DNA will be found on the towel.

Both of these things are very likely to occur in the house in which you live, unless you are in the habit of using your neighbor's house to bathe or wash your hands.

In the time it has taken you to read these sentences, you have shed another couple million skin cells. Many of these skin cells accumulated in your clothes. So, if you remain fully clothed in your bathroom and do not do things like rub your skin on towels, you MIGHT limit the amount of your DNA in your bathroom, but it is highly unlikely.

[LostinVA]

131. You're hung up on the skin cell thing

Skin cells aren't semen.

[Richard Steele]

151. Yeah, you'd think he would know more about it, being so obsessed!

The ONLY person talking about skin cells is him:
the guy who claims humans renew their entire dermis
every month!

It's very odd, IMHO.

[LostinVA]

157. Oooh... I just felt a billion skin cells rejuvenate as I wrote this

[jberryhill]

176. I gather that the two of you don't know much about DNA testing

It doesn't matter if the DNA was from semen or from skin.

You'll find semen in bathrooms used by college age males, too. But for the purpose of DNA sequence comparison, it doesn't matter - you take a swab, you then put the swab in a chemical that bursts the cell membranes, and you then replicate DNA sequences in that soup.

I realize you think there are "kinds" of DNA, or that it is unusual for semen to be on a bath mat or towel in a bathroom.

You are well on the way, Sherlock, of cracking the case of the missing Vaseline from the cabinet.

[Richard Steele]

199. You "gather" incorrectly, then.

And when you say, "I realize you think there are "kinds" of DNA",
well, that's another mistake on your part.

Everyone else here seems able to determine from context that
the statement you are referring to actually meant
"different kinds of EVIDENCE from which DNA may be recovered".

Everyone but YOU.

So, did you REALLY misunderstand, or do you simply
find it convenient to pretend that you did?
I gotta admit, it sure provided a nice lead-in to your
oh-so-witty "Sherlock" crack! :rofl:

But I digress;
I really wanna hear more about how humans replace their
entire skin every month.

Those idiots in the medical profession seem convinced
that it takes 7 or 8 YEARS to do that, can you believe it?
I guess they aren't as smart as you.

[jberryhill]

215. "different kinds of EVIDENCE from which DNA may be recovered"

And so there are.

The DNA from the suspects was taken from a suspect kit that involves samples of head hair, pubic hair, epidermal skin, and a cheek swab. No, they didn't collect semen from any of the 47 suspects, of which a subset of 3 are alleged to have committed the assault.

There is nothing, nada, zilch, zero, about any collection of semen from the bathroom in the video or in any press reports. There is plenty about DNA, because you wipe a swab on an environmental surface and then proceed with suspending it, busting open any cells in there, and replicating the DNA. The "evidence" from which the DNA is recovered is a cotton swab.

You lose two to three billion skin cells a day. Any swab of a surface in your bathroom is going to recover your DNA. Whether a dimly-remembered factoid about skin cells fascinates you or not, I really wanna hear more about the evidence in this case that semen was recovered from ANYWHERE.

[Richard Steele]

254. Well, if I got nailed on everything I ever remembered "dimly"....

Better let's just not go there, lol! ;)

What I am SERIOUSLY wondering about is:
what info our intrepid Durham DA has up his sleeve
that we haven't heard about yet.

I've watched that video several times now, and I don't
buy what the Defense Attorneys are selling.
I don't think they believe a damn word they are saying;
the total absense of semen is (somehow) NOT
the 'get out of jail free card' that they are trying to
convince us that it is.

Our DA has said all along that he didn't need DNA
to make this case. And he actually seems to mean it,
since he didn't drop it today.

Now there's no way in hell ANYONE would take this case to
a grand jury on the woman's testimony alone;
frankly, it would be a hard sell even if
they had found DNA from half the damn team.

He HAS to have something else to be acting the way he is.
So, what is it?
Corroborating photos? Video?
A team member who is secretly cooperating with his investigation?
Or perhaps just a subconscious desire for early retirement?

[jberryhill]

275. You are as misinformed as you are sarcastic

http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761569048/Skin.html

"Healthy epidermis replaces itself in a neatly orchestrated way every month."

Contributed By:
Richard L. Edelson, B.A., M.D.
Professor and Chairman, Department of Dermatology, Yale University School of Medicine.

Go argue with him.

[Lex]

50. Link to the video of the Defense Attorneys' Press Conference

is in this story: http://www.wral.com/news/8600601/detail.html

Don't know if it is the full press conference and the information about 2 of the accused men's DNA on a towel and on the bathroom floor is toward the end of the conference.

[jberryhill]

52. Splitting hairs?

Ummm... my DNA, and quite a few of my hairs, are all over my bathroom. Of that I'm certain.

Your DNA is wherever you shed dead skin cells, which is pretty much everywhere you go.

[Lex]

61. But no young woman has claimed to have been raped in your

bathroom, ended up with injuries that put her in the hospital that same night, or had witnesses see her running from your house while you yelled racial ephithets are her, either.

That is the difference.

[jberryhill]

74. I don't understand that at all

So, let me see if I follow the logic here.

My DNA is all over my bathroom, because, duh, I spend time in there. My DNA is in my car, in my living room... my DNA is all over the house.

It would normally mean nothing, but if a woman accused me of having committed a rape in my house, and if my DNA was found in my house, then it would mean.... uh, what?

I mean, go ahead and accuse me. You'll still find my DNA in my bathroom. That fact doesn't prove or disprove the allegation, but it would sure be a silly thing to argue.

[Lex]

81. You're correct. Depends on what kind of DNA we are talking about.

And if the kind of DNA found is consistent with the accuser's story about being raped in the bathroom.

[jberryhill]

117. How many "kinds" of DNA do your cells have?

The "kind" of DNA? WTF?

[Lex]

123. No, you misunderstand. DNA can be found in semen or hair or skin cells.

Sorry if I was too imprecise for you to understand.

[jberryhill]

148. All of which you would expect to find...

...in the bathroom.

I have no idea why the other poster things there is some sort of difference between DNA from live or dead skin cells, but of course you find both in a bathroom, or else you go somewhere else to clip your hangnails.

If you take swabs from a communal bathroom in a house inhabited by males, you will indeed find samples of semen, hair, live skin, dead skin, boogers, nail clippings, blood, athlete's foot fungus, (why do you think they CALL it "athlete's foot"?), and all manner of intimate ooze and secretion.

And that is even if it looks relatively "clean".

You tell me what "kind of DNA" would corroborate a rape in my bathroom?

[TheWraith]

173. It's not different kinds of DNA, it's different kinds of evidence.

DNA is the same whether you pull it from skin, hair, blood, saliva, whatever. But it would mean very different things if you found a room covered in dead skin cells, versus a room covered in blood. You see what I mean? For instance, in a normal bathroom, you'd expect to find a certain amount of all those things. However, if you found--say--blood mixed with semen, or blood in unusual places such as the floor or the walls, that would be potential evidence.

You're quite right that alone, most of those things mean nothing, at least in this case, and in many others. It's context that matters. For instance, if you found a sample of a victim's saliva mixed with semen from a suspect, you'd have evidence of a sexual assault. Either one alone would really only be proof that they had been in the room.

[TheWraith]

125. I'd presume that refers to the carrier.

Semen, blood, saliva, dead skin, live skin--all these things can yield DNA. What material is found, and where, helps to piece together what happened. For instance, dead skin found on the floor means nothing, since it's constantly shed. But live skin or blood could indicate a struggle.

[Lex]

130. Thanks.

I didn't think I was being all that confusing, but one never knows.

[LostinVA]

174. No, you were making sense

[Warpy]

16. Fascinating

Unless her rapists used condoms, this is not making the accuser look very good.

I would hope they did the complete kit for hairs and fibre.

[Jersey Devil]

23. Obviously there was SOME kind of DNA collected

Otherwise, how could there even be any tests that produced anything other than the victim's own DNA? You'd have to know more details about the results of the tests. Did the tests show only the victim's DNA or was there some other DNA present that was not hers? If so, it could be she was raped but not by the lacrosse players.

[sproutster]

39. That would be mitochondrial dna (fast testing too I believe) from root ...

hair

[YouthInAsia]

17. If this is true, will the coah be reinstated? Will the players

get an apology?

[BrownOak]

32. Things That Won't Happen

1. The DA won't release the DNA test results because they make him look like an idiot for the way he handled the case in the first place - screaming "gang rape" in a crowded theater and rushing to grant every media request that came in. This sure looked like a good idea at the time, what with that tight election on the horizon and all.

2. The coach won't be reinstated - the numerous alcohol violations from the players are enough to send him on his way. The players may not have raped anyone, but their behavior wasn't what any university should tolerate.

3. Nobody will apologize to the players for the reasons stated above.

4. Those who rushed to judgment around here won't admit that these guys could be innocent and instead will quickly denounce the results of the tests.

[YouthInAsia]

68. sadly, I agree with you.

too bad, cuz those guys were really treated like shit. Oh well.

[LostinVA]

112. Aren't you jumping the gun? No one has been proven guilty or innocent yet

This certainly doesn't mean the woman is lying... nor that the players are being truthful.

And, anyone here who doesn't think the medical evidence showed she was raped, or passed a polygraph, isn'
t thinking things through. No way the DA would even investigate a case like this without all of this PLUS the outside witnesses.

[lumberjack_jeff]

133. What exactly is the legal process for proving someone innocent? n/t

[YouthInAsia]

135. notice that I started out by saying 'IF THIS IS TRUE"

[me b zola]

18. Whow, slow down everybody

Let me remind you of that rape/murder of a young criminal justice major in NY. The guy that the prosecutors had a hard on for prosecuting was a black man on parole. THE DNA WAS NOT A MATCH. The man is still being held and charged with her murder on circumstantial evidence.

WHY ISN'T THIS VICTIM BEING GIVEN THE SAME RESPECT?

[blondeatlast]

27. Good point. While many DUers are falling all over themselves

celebrating the Duke team's "victory" as determined so far entirely by the defense attorney, others wait in jail on even flimsier evidence.

Where's the concern for them?

Ah, irony--thy name is Democratic Underground. Or General Discussion.

Or something...

[TheWraith]

48. Excuse me? You're spinning this for the prosecution?

The DNA results were performed by the official police forensics lab. You don't think that the attorneys can lie about something like that, do you? Of course they would release it first. The DA would never admit something like that, because it undermines his entire case.

And DUers are "falling all over themselves" to "celebrate?" Huh? I think you're mistaking a well-justified sense of "I told you so" from the people here who got the crap beaten out of them a few days ago for not jumping on the conviction-without-trial bandwagon. Cases like this are never so simple that you can just divine guilt on the part of the accused. That's why we have investigations.

[blondeatlast]

64. I'm referring here specifically to the post above.

And there are plenty of arguments against the defense presented in this thread. I suggest you read through them.

[TheWraith]

140. I've read all the arguments for and against both sides.

At this point there's very little evidence for anything that would hold up in court. What we've got is the medical report of the dancer's injuries, not available to the public; an unknown DNA contribution, not belonging to any of the current suspects; and the statement of the dancer.

[YouthInAsia]

71. Well said. I refrained from joinging those "discussions" cuz

I knew they'd jump all over me if I had stood up for the Duke players/.

[blondeatlast]

87. You haven't read any "opposing" (btw, I'm NOT on either side)

viewpoints then, have you?

You don't understand or approve of the concept the concept of parsing the public statement then, is that it?

But you'll happily tag-team on someone you THINK is in opposition to your side?

How very open minded of you...

[YouthInAsia]

132. what are you talking about? I didnt post on either side

cuz I saw how everyone was attacking ANYONE who stood up for the players. i read the posts but refrained from getting involved.

[sproutster]

41. I am following that case - and it doesn't pass the smell test thus far.

[blondeatlast]

46. Edit--my bad.The blonde needs to read more carefully... nt

[me b zola]

92. But where was the outrage regarding the NY case?

I'm simply asking about what appears to be a double standard.

[benburch]

22. We'll see what the prosecutor does.

If this is true, the case likely gets dropped.

If the case is not dropped, this is likely more defense lawyer spin to pollute the jury pool.

[TheWraith]

53. You can't spin DNA results.

And unless the lawyers for the accused are REALLY stupid, you can't lie about them either. Regardless of how you interpret it, this is almost certainly the way that the tests turned out.

[blondeatlast]

59. "Truthiness." The defense's statement has been widely

deconstructed both here and in LBN. I suggest you read through the defense's very carefully chosen wording.

"No DNA evidence found on the body of the alleged victim..."

That doesn't mean there is NO DNA evidence whatsoever.

[TheWraith]

72. From a criminology perspective, they're right to say that.

DNA from the house where the party occurred would be suspect because of the known presence of the players, unless it was of an incriminating nature. An example of the latter would be blood from the dancer, or blood mixed with semen, or the like. An example of the former would be semen from one of the players, which could be explained by a number of scenarios none of which require raping the dancer.

Unless something significant turns up in the house, the only hard evidence would be what was recovered from the dancer's body. Also, we have to assume that there was DNA evidence recovered from the dancer, otherwise there would have been nothing to compare the team's samples to. If that DNA isn't from any of the team members, who is it from? Unless you can identify that person and establish that they were present at the house that night, you have reasonable doubt sitting on a silver platter.

[blondeatlast]

95. But again, we so far only have the DEFENSE's statement.

And I maintain, regardless of my personal opinion of the case (which I don't think is actually as clear as you may think), that the defense is determined to try this case in the media.

Parsing public statements and political PR is a hobby of mine.

It's proven valuable in taking on the current administration, I might add.

[wuushew]

24. How about a national DNA database for prosecuting rape crimes?

Since a sample of DNA taken at birth or when school aged is no more a loss of privacy then finger printing and more reliable why has this not been done?

I suppose a leaked finger print would not cause your health insurance to be canceled, but surely workable safeguards could be codified into law.

[Jersey Devil]

25. Is a DNA sample taken at birth and on entering school?

That is the first time I ever heard of that.

[wuushew]

29. I am just saying if we allow finger printing then why not DNA

DNA's use as a crime solving tool is far beyond that of finger printing. If fingering printing is allowed now and is deemed compatible with the constitutional right of privacy then DNA databases should be started for the same reasons.

[lastliberalintexas]

33. Because fingerprinting isn't allowed now

At least not at most US hospitals of which I am aware. And regardless, even if the hospital does take the fingerprints, they are made as a medical record, not as part of a criminal one. The government does not get access to medical records without going through the proper constitutional channels, ie, the showing of probable cause and obtaining a warrant.

There is not currently a single database accessible by the government with every American's fingerprints in it, and I hope we never get to that point in this country.

[lastliberalintexas]

28. Most US hospitals do not fingerprint babies, though

they do take footprints of the child.

And the reason that this is a bad idea is that it is an unconstitutional invasion of privacy which allows the government to circumvent that quiant notion of a warrant by compiling and then searching a database instead. Do you trust your government that much? I don't.

[beam me up scottie]

34. Precisely.

Not to mention they can find out a whole lot more about you from your DNA than they can from a fingerprint.

I don't even like the fact they have my fingerprints.

[BrownOak]

45. Scary Stuff

I don't know how they didn't work that one into the Patriot Act.

[TheWraith]

63. Uh, because that would be HIGHLY ILLEGAL?

One, the idea of putting everybody into a database, any database, with personally identifiable information used for law enforcement would be a GROSS violation of the fourth amendment. No, DNA samples are NOT taken at birth and admission to school. The same is true for fingerprints. There is no such national database, and if there ever was, it would have to be destroyed.

Two, there IS a database of DNA samples from existing sexual assault cases, including cases where the perpetrator was caught. That's as much as is legal. To demand samples from people who are not under any suspicion of a crime would be unconstitutional in the extreme, no matter how much good intention you might have.

[Kailassa]

35. How sure can we be the DNA samples were actually taken

from the men involved? I would be interested to know exactly what the proceedure was.

Don't forget these men gave false names to the girls when they went there, and pretended to be an altogether different team. They will not be above fooling the prosecution in any way possible.

We know they are all sportsmen, and one thing sportsmen have become good at is fooling testing mechanisms.

My understanding of the normal DNA test is that a scraping is taken from inside a person's cheek. So if you get a friend to roll up and have his cheek scraped for you, you are going to come out of this smelling of roses.

[dsc]

38. because Barney Fife is a fictional character

We know how to take samples, even here in the unenlightened South. The team members are swabbed by a forensic technician. They don't go somewhere and jack off.

[Kailassa]

49. And how do you know that similar looking replacements

did not stand in for the rapists, if there were any?

A technician can only test the DNA of the person who presents for the test. I would like to know how they can be sure the correct people were tested.

[dsc]

51. you have to bring your id

and both the person who came in the person's place and the person who was supposed to be tested would be jailed if caught. The arresting officer is often there as well.

[Kailassa]

57. Well, of course. But ID can be lent, and who would know?

The team have already proved they will stand together on this.

[hexola]

78. Good call...

This does seem a longshot - but far from impossible...

good to scrutinize everything...

[TheWraith]

90. It's really not possible.

In these cases, the people are brought in by the local police, ID is checked, and they're usually also IDed by an authority from the school or the like. There's really no chance whatsoever that you could fool any but the world's stupidest cops by way of a doppelganger ploy.

[countingbluecars]

56. One can't help being a skeptic

at times. Do you recall the case of the boy who died at the boot camp in Florida? The official coroner's report said he died of sickle cell disease. The tape showed otherwise.

[Blue_Roses]

36. I've always heard that it takes a long time to get DNA results back

How can they have results for 46 people this fast:wtf: They can't.

[dsc]

40. because most of the time is growing the sample not reading the sample

It doesn't take 46 times as long to test 46 people.

[Neil Lisst]

44. it's obvious the prosecutor got the results, same time as defendants

attorneys got them, and the defendants' attorneys rushed to hit the afternoon news cycle. The prosecutor now has to think about what he does next, and that means bringing his witnesses back in.

My concern is that she really was assaulted physically, perhaps, but not sexually, maybe even threatened, and that she reported a rape that didn't happen. Something happened to her that was ugly and probably racist, and it may have been assault without being sexual assault.

[blondeatlast]

54. Absolutely. No woman makes an assault charge without

careful consideration.

She was undeniably injured somehow and the prosecutors and the police clearly have some damning evidence.

[lastliberalintexas]

62. I wouldn't go so far as to sanctify all members of our sex

There really are some women who make false charges, unfortunately. I am not saying that this was one of those cases, just that it does happen. For money. Or revenge. Or for attention. And it horribly undermines those cases in which a person really was assaulted.

[TheWraith]

84. Not really.

As LL pointed out, there are plenty of false charges for various reasons. Law enforcement figures suggest that 20% of all rape reports are later either proven to be, or confessed to be, false.

And the prosecutor doesn't neccessarily have to have much in the way of evidence in this case. If he did, he's already have filed charges. In a case like this, with all the media attention both locally and nationally, he's in a position where he has to go on the attack and try to hang somebody for the crime, whether they did anything or not, simply to make himself look like he's doing something. That's why media attention is pretty much always bad for a criminal investigation.

[blondeatlast]

99. Sit down--I'm about to agree with you.

Believe me, I know from a family experience that prosecutors make stuff up.

In the family case--they had my family members car--but said family member was driving my sister's car that day, not his own. They had no evidence of the car he was driving (the dimwit police diodn't even take a picture), so they searched said family member's registration. His car was in the shop and we presented evidence to that effect to no avail.

He was convicted anyway. Later, he got a call from a jury member asking forgiveness--he felt pressured to vote guilty even though said family member's case should have been thrown out.

OTOH, I have a friend I took to a rape crisis center. I knew the alleged attacker and he got off on a technicality.

I got no love for either side of the judicial "equation."

That being said, I'm reserving my judgment until I hear what the DA has to say about the DNA.

[VelmaD]

105. I hope you have a source to back up that number...

because every stat I've ever seen on false rape reports puts them at around 2%...the same rate for other crimes.

[LostinVA]

113. It is about 2% -- and rape is a very underreported crime

[Neil Lisst]

127. that 2 percent number was one the FBI pulled out of their ass

decades ago, and it's been repeated as if true since.

There are studies that indicate otherwise, easy to locate.

Also, it's one that a couple of authors picked because it supported their position.

Here:

http://archives.cjr.org/year/97/6/rape.asp

Sometimes the figure is attributed to a particular source, but that's still no guarantee the numbers can't be challenged. Marcia L. Roth, the author of the 1996 op-ed article in the Louisville Courier-Journal, attributed the 2 percent rate to the 1993 book Rape, the Misunderstood Crime, by Julie Allison and Lawrence Wrightsman. But Allison and Wrightsman weren't so unequivocal. Noting that the frequency of false rape reports is difficult to assess, they didn't do their own study; instead they looked at a synthesis of research findings from a 1979 book, Understanding the Rape Victim, by Sedelle Katz and Mary Ann Mazur. Katz and Mazur, it turns out, had reviewed studies dating back to 1956 that showed the frequency of unfounded and false rape reports ranging from a low of 1 percent to a high of 25 percent. Allison and Wrightsman simply chose the study that showed 2 percent.

[TheWraith]

146. Not all false reports are at the same rate.

The number came from a university study done on a cross section of police reports from various areas over a period of something like 4 years. Sorry, but no, I don't carry a link with me. But rape is falsely reported far more than most people want to admit.

[Lex]

58. In her statement she said they threatened her with a broomstick initially

but I don't think she ended up saying they raped her with it.

[BrownOak]

60. Except...

Except that if you buy into the photos the defense is stating they have, there's likely ample evidence that this woman already had the bruises on the police report before she arrived at the party. If that's the case, and you want to get into the game of speculating on what happened, it's just as possible the alleged victim was sexually assaulted before she arrived at the party in the first place. Think about how many women in this world live with an abusive relationship and have had domestic rape with someone they won't report.

[sproutster]

66. I think it's only in DP trials

If you are faced with two senarios, one innocent and one guilty given the same weight, you must veer to the innocent.

I tend to follow that in felony trials too.

[lastliberalintexas]

73. Not true

In ALL criminal cases, from the lowliest misdemeanor to death penalty cases, the government is taxed with proving its case beyond a reasonable doubt. All other things being equal, preponderance of the evidence and more likely than not are impermissible standards of proof in criminal trials.

The government has the burden of proving your guilt beyond a reasonable doubt- not byond all doubt, but beyond any *reasonable* doubt. "Veering to the innocent" would thus be appropriate for any criminal prosecution.

[enid602]

55. players

Maybe the the players were all Republicans, and could not get it (them) up.

[phrenzy]

80. Ugh... I know you're kidding but...

This post, and it's timing is just one more thing to make me shake my head. We really do sound no different than the freepers sometimes.

[OzarkDem]

77. Defense atty is amazing

He keeps getting by with murder, releasing so much BS into the news.

Is he trying to taint the jury pool?

Is he trying to get the trial moved?

Is he trying to put political pressure on the prosecutors office?

How much IS the university paying him, anyway?

[lastliberalintexas]

85. Sorry, the defense attorneys are doing their job

So long as they are within the code of ethics adopted by the state bar, they are doing nothing more (or less) than zealously representing their clients. The prosecutors don't get a pass just because this is a rape case, and their feet will still be held to the fire to prove who actually raped this woman.

The defense attorneys are doing their job- nothing more, nothing less. And in our adversarial system of criminal justice, a vigorous defense is most necessary.

[blondeatlast]

102. You need to sit down too--I agree.

I'd rather see some rich scum get off on a technicality (I'm not saying that's what happened here, though) than to see anyone go to prison on a false allegation or faked or tainted evidence.

I've seen the ugly on both sides of the justicve system so I have no love nor hate for either one.

[lastliberalintexas]

109. LOL!

Though I do dislike the term "technicality", since when most people use it in connection with criminal prosecutions they are really talking about that technicality known as the US Constitution. It isn't a technicality when a defendant is acquitted after evidence is thrown out by the judge because it was seized illegally, it's our constitutional process (and a screw up by the cops, very likely). I'm not saying that's how you're using it, though, since I don't know the details of your friend's case.

I'll simply say that I hope the cops are able to determine who really raped this young woman (since I personally do believe her claim of rape).

:hi: and thanks for the civil discussion!

[TheWraith]

86. How is it BS?

This is the report of the state's own DNA lab. How is it BS?

[BrownOak]

88. Yeah, that mean old defense attorney...

The right thing to do here, especially after the DA stood up and yelled to any media outlet that would listen that there was no doubt in his mind that a rape took place and he was going to get DNA tests to show it, would be to just sit quietly and let his clients continue to get ripped apart in the media.

Maybe if the DA had half a spine he would have released the results himself.

[sproutster]

91. He is NOTHING compared to the bastard in the Heidle(sp) case

that f*ckwad screamed her name on her collage campus naming her as the rape victim (who wanted to be a porno star), he had one jury believe she was awake and participating in the torture of herself... He will rot in hell.

[Jacobin]

101. Yes. His job is to help the D.A. convict his client

He should be disbarred.

/sarcasm

[OzarkDem]

288. Its not his job

to leave out pertinent information and try his case in the news media.

[ecstatic]

93. The tests may have been tampered with

Priviledged kids tend to be above the law... Do you really think if Dubya was in a similar situation, the police would have been able to get anywhere near his real DNA?

[TheWraith]

104. Think about what you're saying for a moment.

You're saying that the DA, whose entire career could be destroyed by failing to prosecute this case, would compromise the evidence that he's loudly been proclaiming to be proof of guilt. That the state police would risk their own imprisonment to allow evidence to be tampered with; that the DNA lab would endanger their entire existence by allowing such an error to occur.

You're starting from an assumption of guilt, and constructing elaborate theories to back it up. That's not how criminal justice works.

[ecstatic]

121. No... but Duke has a history of covering up rapes

So it's not that far fetched to think the police would be used to fabricating/destroying evidence for them.

[hexola]

180. I went to high school with a guy that went to Duke and raped...

lost their frat charter...as I recall...

Thats was the first thing I thought of...sadly...

edit: come to think of it he played LAX in school too - not sure if he played at Duke though...years ago...

[Rich Hunt]

183. oh they have a 'history'

Honestly, your word games are getting old real fast.

This racial provocation stunt failed miserably.

[Pavulon]

128. Have you ever been to Durham?

Seen the police. Durham's police has a large minority representation. Most of the city officials and political structure is black.

Try again.

[Ksec]

94. Hate to say I told ya so

but I told ya so. I saw many willing to convict because they were white and supposedly priveledged.

[ecstatic]

96. So case is closed for you? Well, its not closed for me

I eagerly await the trial.

[Ksec]

191. Yea, like you awaited the DNA evidence.

[Richard Steele]

111. No "supposedly" about it, they ARE priveledged.

And sorry if your wise words of caution went unheeded this time,
but some of us here at DU just don't pay much heed to a member
with a racist avatar who complains about how the "poor white males
are being picked on".

I know I sure don't.

[Ksec]

190. Ya know, racists are usually the first to call others racist

And over a Cleveland Indian avatar. Thats funny coming from someone who convicted a whole Lacrosse team because they were white and priveledged.

[Richard Steele]

209. So when did I "convict" anyone? I don't seem to recall that happening.

In fact, I'm pretty certain I've been trying
not to express any opinion of their guilt or innocence.

[blondeatlast]

136. I'd SO hate to see you eat your words, really I would...

:sarcasm:

Got proof of that?

I agree that many were far too quick on both sides, but this hardly closes the matter. If there were no evidence whatsoever, the DA would be shutting the case in a heartbeat. He isn't.

A case tried by one side in the media doesn't close the matter (see The People of the State of California vs. Orenthal James Simpson, for one).

[Ksec]

188. Eat yer words?

You mean like you folks have had to do?

No problem. I never said they were innocent btw but you and others of your ilk DID assume guilt. That is all/ End of gloat.

[blondeatlast]

213. I have "ilk?!"

What the hell ilk are "mine?"

Would I really want to claim them?

"My ilk?"--PRICELESS!

:bounce::bounce::bounce:

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

I'll begin my gloat here, thank you.

[Kailassa]

244. I think it's those big reindeer things.

When they get sick they become ilk.

[blondeatlast]

268. Good one!

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

[sproutster]

100. From a transcript with DA

From Dan Abrams interview 04/07/06:

ABRAMS: Now, the police at the time had said, and this is in their
effort to get DNA tests from the 46 of the 47 players, they said DNA
tests would show conclusive evidence as to who the suspects are in the
alleged violent attack upon this victim. Do you stand by that comment?


NIFONG: Well, you have to understand how DNA is used. Obviously the
first step that is involved in DNA testing is determining whether or
not there is any DNA evidence that is left with the victim that does
not belong to her, and so the initial tests are to determine whether or
not DNA foreign to the victim can be detected on the samples that are
taken from her body.

Now, if there is no DNA left, then there is obviously nothing to
compare. For instance, if a condom were used, then we might expect
that there would not be any DNA evidence recovered from say a vaginal
swab.

ABRAMS: But she would have told you, would she have not? I mean
you've spoken to her. She would have said either they used condoms or
they didn't.

NIFONG: Well, if you are being forced to have sex against your will,
you may not necessarily notice whether or not somebody behind you is
using a condom. This was not a consensual sex situation. This was a
struggle, wherein she was struggling just to be able to breathe. So
I'm not sure that she would really have much way of knowing whether a
condom was being used.

Under any circumstances, the first step is to determine whether or not
there is DNA that can be identified, foreign to the victim, and then
once we get past that stage, we could then compare any DNA that was
found. Now obviously if there is a DNA match, then that's very strong
evidence, but the absence of DNA doesn't necessarily mean anything
other than no DNA was left behind.

ABRAMS: Right. Because that's what I was going to ask you. So the
bottom line is if there is no DNA match in this case, you're saying
that is not going to be the death nail for your case?

NIFONG: Well, you have to remember that DNA is a relative latecomer to
the forensic scene. There have been many successful rape prosecutions
involving nothing more than the statement by the victim that she was
raped by a particular individual.

ABRAMS: Yes.

NIFONG: Obviously, we would always prefer to have forensic
corroboration for the victim's statement, but the fact is that we have
enough to go forward any time that the victim identifies a particular
person as the perpetrator of a sex crime against her.

[TheWraith]

115. He's omitting something.

You would know whether DNA was recovered from the victim. Presumably there was, otherwise there would be no use in ordering the samples from all the players. In that case, no match means that you have an unknown contribution, not that there was nothing there.

[BrownOak]

221. Also from the DA

From his filing with the court (paraphrased):

"The DNA evidence will conclusively prove who is guilty and clear the innocent."

Of course, all of that was before he found out the players were embracing the DNA tests with confidence.

Also notable from the Abrams transcript - "the fact is that we have enough to go forward any time that the victim identifies a particular person as the perpetrator of a sex crime against her."

The problem is, the alleged victim hasn't identified a particular person - she's identified 46 suspects and said it was three of those guys.

[ContraBass Black]

106. I'll wait for something from the police or the judge

Rather than the defenders or prosecutors.

[Jersey Devil]

124. Neither the police nor the judge have anything to do with it

Evidence is not submitted to a judge during an investigation and once turned over to the prosecutor's office the police have nothing to do with it either.

[ContraBass Black]

126. They don't have enough to take it to trial?

[Jersey Devil]

149. First a grand jury would have to bring charges

The prosecutor presents all the evidence to a grand jury and if 12 of 23 votes to indict there are charges brought. Only then does a case go before a judge.

[sproutster]

107. Thinking about this, if it's unfounded...

I hope she IS CHARGED.

I do not wish to loosen the already loose rape laws that exist.

If nothing else this case shows that the technology and forensic evidence regardless of the spin, will and can show guilt without ABUSING A VICTIM.

If there are harsher perjury, and false claims penalties... I can't see this being a "trend"

I'm not saying she's guilty (yet), but I am certainly leaning in that direction. 3 unnamed men with fake names, she couldn't identify them (speculating) from images, and now there appears to be no DNA to back it up. What was the DA thinking when he went on record?

[blondeatlast]

120. "What was the DA thinking ..?"

The same thing the defense attorney was--try this in the media and taint the jury pool. The defense just seems more arrogant about it.

As I've said several times in this thread, I've got no love for the ugly on either side of the courtroom.

[sendero]

122. "Unfounded"

The absense of DNA PROVES NOTHING. They could have been wearing condoms, they could have pulled out, they might simply not have ejaculated.

The presence of DNA would prove something, the absence doesn't prove jack.

[Jersey Devil]

138. It definitely WOULD mean something if

some DNA was found on her body other than the DNA of the players. From what I have read I was led to believe some DNA was found on her person. If so it has to match someone.

So, if as you opine, they wore condoms or did not ejaculate, and if when she scratched at them so hard it tore her fingernails off it left no skin under them, just what sample DNA were they comparing that they found on her to compare against the athletes' DNA?

The only way they could proceed with this case imo against the players if if there were absolutely NO DNA found on her person at all. But in that case, again, where was the sample they tested the athletes against taken from? Towels? Sorry, that won't do it.

[sendero]

142. Well..

... I'm not sure where you are getting that idea. Is she claiming she had sex with no one else in the proximate timeframe?

[sproutster]

144. Not only that - BUT WHO WOULD THEY BRING TO TRIAL?

It's my "assumption" ... (speculation) that they don't know who the perps are THERFORE they took DNA from everyone on the team?

[sproutster]

141. The absense of DNA... when her wallet and fingernails were found...

http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-duke10apr10,0,662063.story?coll=la-story-footer

Attorney Joe Cheshire, who represents one of the team's captains, said
the report indicated authorities took DNA samples from all over the
alleged victim's body, including under her fingernails, and from her
possessions, such as her cell phone and her clothes.

"They swabbed about every place they could possibly swab from her, in
which there could be any DNA," he said.

Cheshire said even if the alleged attackers used a condom, it's likely
there would have been some DNA evidence found suggesting an assault
took place. He said in this case, the report states there was no DNA on
her to indicate that she had sex of any type recently.

"The experts will tell you that if there was a condom used they would
still be able to pick up DNA, latex, lubricant and all other types of
things to show that -- and that's not here," Cheshire said.

[TheWraith]

159. One would then have to question why they took samples from the players.

If there were no DNA on her, then there wouldn't be a whole lot of point in testing samples from the players, because you'd have nothing to compare them to.

The only thing I could think is if they were looking at possible DNA samples recovered from the bathroom to determine who from the team was in there, but that wouldn't do much good in a criminal proceeding. Any good defense attorney would point out half a dozen ways that DNA, even semen, from the players could end up in the bathroom without a rape occuring. To get a conviction, you need to put together the accused, the victim, and the crimescene, all at once.

[LostinVA]

163. Thank you -- exactly what I keep posting

[BrownOak]

227. But

DNA evidence isn't just limited to semen. What about the skin that was supposed to be in those fingernails? What about the fact that they didn't find any of the alleged victim's DNA in the room that was supposed to be the crime scene?

The defense has stated they have expert witnesses who will testify that even with a condom there would be evidence. And the idea of three guys pulling out on not having ejaculated is not only a stretch, it still only addresses DNA gathered from semen, not other forms of transmittal.

[Lex]

145. She was hosptialized with injuries among them

were a beaten face and body, a leg pulled out of joint, and trauma indicating she had been raped.

A neighbor witnessed her running from the lacrosse house while the players hurled racial epithets at her.

No DNA doesn't mean she wasn't sexually assaulted and beaten up, it just means that there was no DNA on her.

[sproutster]

147. Ok, who ya gonna arrest? All of them? play hot potato?

[Lex]

150. That's a different question than saying her charges are "unfounded"

and SHE might need to be charged.

There is nothing proving that the 3 she accused did not beat her and rape her. I understand the investigation is ongoing, however.

[sproutster]

167. Agreed, I think I went off tangent - there are two issues that are

foremost in my mind.

1.) If there is no dna "match" they cannot arrest anyone. The dna was taken from all players because there was no identification.

2.) If ... "if" it is "unfounded" such as the images "do" show injuries, and that matches with the doctors statements - She should be charged, and charged harshly.

I am a huge supporter of victims rights. I will always be up front fighting for anyone who's abused, but one huge media circus around someone who is lying just marginalizes the very real, very frequent fight.

[Kailassa]

178. There is a huge difference between not being able to prove a charge,

and accusing the complainant of making false charges.

[sproutster]

185. But both are in play with what we know at the moment

Those are my issues as it stands. I'm not married to either one. I'm not accusing, I am however stating IF that is true, yes, I would like to see her pay for her crime.

I do however have a question for you.

If the images show injuries that are listed in the medical records AND there is no DNA that can show sexual contact. Do you think there could be a case for false charges?

I'm just curious. Please believe me I want this girl to be telling the truth, but as it stands, I have issues.

[Kailassa]

218. I would have to have a lot more information than that

before I could make a decision.

I'm sure you are aware that rape is a very under-reported crime.

When a girl has been raped, and then has to describe the incident in detail to strangers, and be examined inside by another stranger, it brings all the memories back and the rape is practically relived, and the girl can feel that she is being raped all over again.

Couple this with the disbelief, contempt and ridicule that can be directed at the girl for making accusations, and the fact that people afterwards, even if she has been proved to be correct, will often look down on her because of that happening to her, and we have a situation where the last thing a rape victim wants to do is report it. There is also the self hatred and urge to hide that such an assault brings, which makes reporting it even more difficult.

So it is vital that no girl who has been raped gets charged with faking charges.

Just as I would prefer to see a guilty rapist get off scot free than to see an innocent man convicted of rape, I would rather a girl got away with making a false charge than an actual rape victim is accused of faking it.

I know many girls who have been raped and never reported it. We don't want society making it even less likely that a rape victim will have a legal recourse.

[sproutster]

239. I too feel the same, and have created a thread on it in the past

I tried to look it up, but it was about all the hate against victims and everyone related stories.

I have zero doubt in this world that rape isn't under reported, I believe it's epidemic.

One in three. I too have stories to tell.

But that has nothing to do with the fact that what we know at this point, shows that there are definately two sides to this story, and as of yet, there are no suspects. DNA was taken from the whole team because no one was identified. Yes the pros can go forward, but forward with what suspect? The items the defense has leaked show another understandable senario. I'm not saying it's correct. I'm saying IF it's correct. Because of of my feelings above, I absolutely detest false allegations. I'm also stating what my issues are IF the defense is correct.

[LostinVA]

263. You keep on saying there are no suspects -- there are

And, the DA just reaffirmed that.

[LisaL]

253. Her father claimed she did identify the three men.

[Jersey Devil]

153. Didn't she leave the party and report it some time later?

I don't know how much later but I know she left the party before reporting it. Isn't it possible that someone else could have beat her up after she left the party?

[Lex]

158. I think it was pretty soon aftewards--within 2 hours.

There was another dancer there who probably will have testimony too about what happened.

[sproutster]

170. Timeline article

http://www.wral.com/news/8392580/detail.html

<snip>
Police say the 911 call in question was made nearly one hour after
exotic dancers entered the home to perform for a group of lacrosse
players. When police arrived at the scene two minutes later, the house
was empty. About 25 minutes later, the alleged victim ended up at a
Kroger store down the street.

The timeline in the case is also raising questions.

On March 13, police say two dancers showed up at 610 North Buchanan
Blvd. just before midnight. An hour later, at 12:53 a.m., police got a
call from a woman who says she was passing by the house.

"Hi, I don't know if this is emergency or not necessarily, but I'm in
Durham driving down near Duke's campus," the caller said.

Seconds into the call, the woman said she wasn't driving.

"It's right in front of 610 Buchanan St. and I saw them all come out
like a big frat house and me and my black girlfriend were walking by
and they called us n--------," the caller said.

[Neil Lisst]

154. reporting or having injuries doesn't mean she's telling the truth

First, the police and their agents are notorious for overstating injuries to help make a case. We heard the same things said when Kobe was charged, and those claims of serious physical injuries never proved up.

She could have been injured before she went there, while she was there, but without any sexual assault occurring, or after she went there.

Whatever injuries she has, without any DNA on her from the players, it doesn't appear they hit her unless they used another object, like a broom or a stick.

So far, the evidence is looking better for the defense than for the prosecution. It's difficult to see how she could have been raped by three guys and no DNA left behind, anywhere on her.

Did someone treat her poorly? Probably.

[Jersey Devil]

160. With no DNA, here's what the DA would have to contend with

As for her injuries the defense will probably suggest that she was beaten up after she left the party by her pimp for not turning tricks and collecting from the players during the party.

Please don't flame me for saying this, but that is what will happen.

[LostinVA]

164. She isn't a prostitute! WTF are you talking about???

If there was ANY indication she was, it would have come out by now.

Good God.

[Jersey Devil]

193. I am not accusing her, just saying what will happen

If this case is tried the defense will certainly suggest she is a hooker. In fact, they'd be saying it already if the DNA had come back to match any of the players.

BTW, according to published stories this was her first gig as a dancer. Previously she said she did "one on one" escort jobs.

You give that kind of stuff to any defense lawyer worth his salt and he'll have a field day with it.

[LisaL]

202. And it has come out that she supposedly did one one one private

dances.

[Neil Lisst]

171. we don't have the benefit of the exact information she gave police

How did the nails get off without any player DNA on them?

Were they laid out in one place, or strewn all over, broken?

Are any bruises consistent with falling down?

[LisaL]

200. Not after. Before.

The defense claims they have photos of her arriving to the party bruised, with bruises on her legs, etc. Before any alleged rape took place. I would say the DA would have devil of a hard time with this case if he decides to go forward. Chances of conviction are going to be virtually nill, considering...

[Lex]

161. I wonder if her hospital reports and pictures will be released.

So far none of that evidence has been released that I know of.

Also there was another dancer there that night and I haven't heard anything about what her statement to the police was.

[TheWraith]

168. Right now, there isn't any solid context for assumptions.

She could have been assaulted at the party more or less the way she described.

She could have left the party, been assaulted by someone else, and due either to traumatic amnesia or deliberate intent fingered the players.

She could have intentionally staged the event, faking her assault with or without help, possibly on the assumption that rich parents would offer considerable money to hush up such an event.

The evidence that we have right now doesn't rule out any of these things.

[Neil Lisst]

195. then we agree

[LisaL]

208. Defense already claims they have pictures of her arriving

to the party with injuries.

[ThomCat]

304. So even though the doctors say there is evidence that

she was raped, and their is enough evidence for the prosecutors to consider taking this to court you have already staked your ground. You're saying she made this up for some reason.

You ignore all the evidence that the doctors and prosecutors see of rape, but you have no evidence that she's lying. Somehow you don't need evidence to accuse her? Nice double standard.

Cops and "their agents" are not notorious for overstating injuries. They are notorious for telling women to go home and forget it ever happened. They are notorious for harrassing women who claim they were raped. That's why the statistics show that only a small fraction of rapes ever get reported.

You're pulling your "facts" out of thin air to defend an indefensible possition. Are there any other crimes where you demand absolute proof before ever going to trial? Are there other crimes where you accuse the clear victim of fraud right up front? Do you work hard to protect everyone who is accused of a crime, or only rapists?

[BrownOak]

228. How's she running

How's she running with a leg pulled out of joint? Again, the defense is saying that they have photos showing her with bruises when she arrived at the party. If that's the case you're left with a racial epithet and a medical report that states her injuries were consistent with sexual assault. On the other side of that, if the defense's comments are accurate, you have photographic evidence showing injuries before she arrived at the party, you have comments from the other escort that she didn't mention any sort of sexual assault to her, you have the bogus 911 call from the second escort, you have the lack of any DNA evidence, including no DNA from the victim in the room where she claims the assault took place, and you have conflicting stories from the alleged victim's father.

If I'm the defense I like my chances.

[FredScuttle]

162. Excuse me

but I don't find anything in the article that says the defense team viewed the report....only that the results were delivered to the police and prosecutors.

Until I hear from the DA, this is just more defense team attempts to poison the potential jury pool.

[blondeatlast]

165. Yep--the defense is trying this in the media. As repulsive a strategy

as it can be sometimes, the defense has an obligation to use every trick available to it.

So does the DA--but they frequently don't get paid nearly as much as a PRIVATE defense attorney.

[LostinVA]

177. And a responsible DA will not try the case in public

[BrownOak]

230. Except that they already have**

[jberryhill]

232. Why would he?

The "public" is already demonstrating outside of the house, and the team has already been punished.

[Kingshakabobo]

181. The whole team has been accused of rape.

Their season has been canceled. I don't think it is out of line for the defense to release exculpatory evidence to the media. The same media that already has tried and convicted these kids.

A DA may not make as much money as a private attorney but they usually have access to far more resources. Not to mention the "if they arrested them they must be guilty effect."

[LostinVA]

287. They often don't have access to far more resources

Sometimes very much the opposite. Because of budgets, caseload, etc. A defendant with a decent bankroll definitely has the edge over the majority of DA offices.

[jberryhill]

198. Then the defense sucks

...because all I've seen in the media are reports of how the entire team has already been punished, pictures of candelight vigils outside of their house, and protestors with signs like "don't cheer for rapists".

But that evil defense attorney wants to "try the case in the media".

[genie_weenie]

207. Good points! This was a case

of the acqusation being so henious that it *must* be true and the accused deserve no respect and should immediately be castrated, sent to a gulag in Alsaka to serve 10 years hard labor as ball-less lumberjacks!

Fuck the trial!

[FredScuttle]

211. Well, there's obviously a need for an investigation and trial

because these sweet innocent young men stonewalled the investigation. I'm all for due process, but that does not give anyone the waiver to inhibit a criminal investigation and protect the guilty.

[genie_weenie]

216. Stonewalled?

It's not fun being on the wrong side of an investigation by the Godless All Powerful State, armed with a near limitless budget and resources to apply pressure to you. Then and in daily protests prior to a trial... It seems there was a rush to convict in this case.

The whole issue is a false dichotomy. I feel for the woman and the trauma she has gone through, but I also feel for the Men who have not been convicted of a crime (as far as I know).

And I never once referred to them as sweet or innocent, btw.

[FredScuttle]

225. God forbid a notorious case

have some, uh, notoriety.

I agree that the coverage is about more than the alleged assault...this is the flame point of long-simmering tensions between Durham residents and Duke students. And, on a national scale, the special treatment afforded to affluent white suspects.

My apologies for the "sweet and innocent" crack...I'm feeling snarky tonight.

[genie_weenie]

245. No worries

I AM NOT YELLING! oh wait...

Seriously, this is bad however it turns out. And I think it is a further indictment of the pampered Athlete culture that pervades american culture nowadays.

I can only hope true justice is done in this case. Whatever that may be...

I recommend the works of Jeff Benedict and Don Yaeger
Pros and Cons : The Criminals Who Play in the NFL
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0446524034/sr=8-2/qid=1144722427/ref=pd_bbs_2/102-9784748-0968125?%5Fencoding=UTF8

And

Out of Bounds : Inside the NBA's Culture of Rape, Violence, and Crime
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00076F0DY/ref=pd_sim_b_1/102-9784748-0968125?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance&n=283155

[FredScuttle]

226. God forbid a notorious case

have some, uh, notoriety.

I agree that the coverage is about more than the alleged assault...this is the flame point of long-simmering tensions between Durham residents and Duke students. And, on a national scale, the special treatment afforded to affluent white suspects.

My apologies for the "sweet and innocent" crack...I'm feeling snarky tonight.

[jberryhill]

242. Everyone got the reports

The Durham County district attorney, Michael B. Nifong, declined to comment on the DNA test results. "It would not be appropriate for me to go into those results," he said in a brief exchange with reporters before the defense lawyers released the results, which were ordered by prosecutors and given to defense attorneys at about 4 p.m. today.

[patcox2]

196. There were suggestions early on that they wore condoms.

I particularly recall a statement by police that they were looking for the used condoms. If they did wear condoms, their DNA would not be in her, but it would, if the condoms spilled or if they wiped themselves off on a towel, be in the bathroom, as it was found.

It does not exonerate them, it just doesn't convict them.

[Ksec]

204. They found her fingernails

and Im sure DNA would be in them . Anyway even if the DNA of the entire team was found in her, does that prove anything? It could have been consentual. couldnt it?

[FredScuttle]

205. Not in light of her injuries

strangulation marks and bruises are usually inconsistent with "consensual sex" unless you're Robert Chambers and have a bunch of half-wits in your jury.

[LisaL]

210. Do you know for a fact she has strangulation marks?

I recall in Kobe's case there were supposed to be strangulation marks on the victim. She actually had one small bruise.

[FredScuttle]

212. I'm going by the DA's statements

and how wonderful to reference a rape case where the defense team released the victim's name to the world to intimidate her into dropping the charges.

[Ksec]

214. I havent heard anything about strangulation marks

I have heard there were some bruises . Thats hardly proof of rape. Ive came home from a night of debauchery and I had bruises all over me. I never raped anyone.

[LisaL]

219. I do not recall DA stating anything about strangulation marks

on this particular victim.
As for Kobe's case, whether you like it or not, horrible supposed bruises on the victim turned out to be relatively minor.

[Neil Lisst]

217. Remember the original quotes leaked by the police in that one?

First, it was "he beat up her up, he choked that girl!"

Then, in time, that proved untrue.

Athletes have more than their fair share of assaults on others, but they're also more vulnerable than most are to retribution by false allegations.

[Ksec]

220. Their season was cancelled

Their coach resigned.

Their lives have been damn near ruined.

And if we find out she made it all up to get money, those things cant be taken back.

[LisaL]

223. I don't know if we are at the stage where we can say she

made it up. First of all, we only heard the defense. And second of all, they did find some sort of DNA on paper towels in the bathroom belonging to two boys. Now, if that is semen, I would say the DA might have something to go on.

[gatorboy]

224. Was it paper towels?

I thought it was bathroom towels though I could be wrong.

[jberryhill]

231. Either way

Paper towels, cotton towels... either way. It's utterly preposterous to find semen on anything in a college boys' bathroom.

[jberryhill]

229. Absolutely

Sure. I can't imagine why anyone would find semen in a college boys' bathroom. Especially not on paper towels.

I mean, if not rape, then I imagine they'd have to claim the semen was somehow surgically extracted from them, because of how rare a find that would be in a boys' bathroom.

[gatorboy]

234. Is that a joke?

Maybe I'm missing the sarcasm. I lived in a fraternity house (TKE) when I was in college and let me tell ya, we weren't the most cleanly of folks. And we generally all used the same group of towels. I can't imagine how finding DNA, even semen on a towel in the bathroom used by a large group of guys would be considered solid evidence of an assault.

Now you've got me thinking of all those potentially semen drenched towels I probably dried off with. Brrrrrrr! :scared:

[LisaL]

237. It might not be solid evidence, but it's better than nothing.

If, and I mean if, she says those particular boys raped her, and if then their semen is found in the bathroom she says the rape took place, that at least gives the DA something to go on.

[BrownOak]

257. For the 3000th time; DNA does not = Semen**

**

[LisaL]

262. No, it does not. But do you know what that DNA is?

The defense didn't say.
And my posts clearly states that IF it's semen, then it could be helpful to the prosecution. And if it's not, then it's obviously not helpful.

[BrownOak]

279. I read it differently

I thought you were saying that in the sense of a sequence of events, not as in a possibility. For example:

If, and I mean if, we fabricated evidence of weapons of mass destruction, and if then we go to war based on that false assumption, that at least gives congress grounds to impeach.

[BrownOak]

238. It would be highly unusual not to find DNA from those two guys...

...considering it was their bathroom. What is unsual is that they didn't find any DNA from the alleged victim in that bathroom. It would take a special kind of jury to convict two guys for having their own DNA in their bathroom when the accuser appears not to have been in there.

[LisaL]

252. Oh jesus christ. Even defense admits she was in there for 27 minutes.

The defense claims she was in there with the other stripper.
So, just her DNA wasn't found in there, doesn't mean she wasn't there. She obviously freaking was in the bathroom. I think this whole DNA thing is getting ridiculous. Just because her DNA is not found in the bathroom, obviously means shit, cause she obviously was in there.

[BrownOak]

255. Check again...

No, the defense stated that she was in a bathroom for 27 minutes, not the bathroom.

[LisaL]

261. Well, not to be completely idiotic. But don't you think finding

her nails in the bathroom would indicate she was in fact in there? Or do you think they magically appeared there?

[BrownOak]

280. Not to be even more idiotic but where

does it state that they found the fingernails in that bathroom or any specific room in the house?

[bloom]

233. As much as some would like to think - this does not exonerate anyone.

DNA would have made it easier to prove - that is all.

Life isn't a TV show.

I think some of the things that the defense is saying "proves" innocence - like the 27 minute gap in the photos - could actually be part of the proof of their guilt. (Of course THEY aren't going to say that).


And as far the Kobe references go - AFAIC - he's not guiltless just because he wasn't found to be guilty. Same sort of thing though. The defense sure got a lot of doubt out there.

[Lex]

236. Like fingerprints, DNA is one kind of evidence.

No fingerprints on an item doesn't mean a certain thief didn't steal it. It doesn't mean a theft of the object didn't occur at all.

It just means other evidence will have to show a theft occured by that person.

[Ksec]

241. True

But the fact that no players DNA was found is pretty weighty. Real hard evidence like that is golden to a case.

I honestly dont know if someone raped this girl, but if they did I hope they burn. If she lied I hope she burns.

[Blue_Tires]

243. just clicked in.....let's be honest here for a second....

for the sake of argument, let's put guilt/innocence aside for a second...

Unless some kind of video surfaces of the patrons at the party committing said crime, there is NO WAY WHATSOEVER any Duke student is going to swing for this...Anyone that truly believes that needs a refresher course on how rape accusations against athletic teams are handled on the college campus...

There are too many things working in their favor...For starters, the Duke kids (and their parents) are too rich and well connected and have too high a standing in their communities to allow this to progress to trial...Secondly, Duke University is "one of those schools where this isn't supposed to happen." Thirdly, the accuser is an outsider (even worse, a student from one of those 'black colleges')...

Granted, there are plenty of schools whose athletic programs have reputations for a more rowdy, 'anything-goes' partytime atmosphere (NOTE: I'm NOT trying to slander any possible alums from said schools) like Colorado, Miami, Florida St., Michigan St., Arizona St., etc etc...The point I'm trying to make is, these are schools that no one would raise an eyebrow if the incident occurred there, and even with that reputation, the vast majority of rape accusations at football schools and elsewhere are quietly swept under the rug without anyone finding out...Expect Duke to do the same thing, to protect their sterling reputation, of course...

I'm not trying to make light of the situation; it's just how things are handled at most universities, in my experience (my mother is also a longtime college administrator, so she's told me some stories over the years as well). If you really look, stuff like the team-stripper-party-getting-out-of-hand happens at least once a year at your local college; it's just that some schools are better at the cover-up than others....In the mid-90s, I went to college at a small Div. II school of 3,000 students (in a major city, I might add), and a girl accused five players from the basketball team of gangrape in a dorm room---Not only did her accusation garner ZERO media coverage, she clammed up altogether once the team and their friends smeared her reputation with the 'slut' branding all over the area...

For grad school, I went to a large school with a nationally known athletics program (see us every year on the road to the final four) One year one of the football players got way too drunk and sexually assaulted a player on the women's soccer team....soccer player went to her coach, her coach went to the athletic director, and the athletic director went to the football coach and told him to handle it...Want to guess what he did? He made the accused player run extra laps after practice as punishment, and that was it (and of course, the football coach at that time was a true 'famblee values' fundie that always quoted the bible)...It was only when the soccer player went to the school paper that any real outrage from the students started (and after all the back-and-forth hand wringing, nothing was really solved, and the player escaped any real punishment...)

these are just two stories i personally know about how some crimes against women are handled on campus when the accused play sports...I'm certain that other DUers here have their own....

[Lex]

248. *****Update****** / DA Plans to Prosecute, Despite No DNA Matches

DA Plans to Prosecute, Despite No DNA Matches

RALEIGH, N.C. -- Durham District Attorney Mike Nifong said he plans to move forward with his case against three members of Duke University's men's lacrosse team, despite DNA results that do not match evidence collected from a woman who claims the athletes raped her.

"I intend on doing exactly what I've been doing the whole time," Nifong told a CBS News reporter Monday night who asked if he intended to move forward with the case. "If that's what you define as moving forward, then yes."


http://www.wral.com/news/8600601/detail.html

[sproutster]

249. How can he do that without his three suspects?

Will he pull their names out of a hat?

[LisaL]

250. At least according to the women's father, she did identify

the three men, so perhaps he will go based on her identification?

[BrownOak]

284. No identification of anyone yet

From this story:

http://www.wral.com/news/8617662/detail.html


Nifong said until he can identify the three men suspected of attacking the woman, members of the lacrosse team, in his words, "are going to be walking around under a cloud."

[theboss]

289. If she identified the three, why did they need 46 samples?

I thought she identified them as white and by the names they used, but not by face.

This is going to be extremely difficult to prosecute because even if a rape did happen, the defense can just speculate that it was one of 45 other people...not the accused.

[Lex]

251. The victim ID'ed them definitely as the 3 who assaulted her.

And I assume there is evidence of her being raped and beaten, excluding DNA.

There is a neighbor witness who saw her leave and heard the racial epithets. And there was the testimony of the other dancer who was there and ultimately called police.

There are broken fingernails, her money and her cell phone left in the house.

Maybe the DA feels he has enough to go forward. Remember, we don't know ALL the evidence the DA has compiled at this point.

[BrownOak]

256. ID'ed suspects... This is news

If the victim identified three suspects why the need to get 46 DNA samples? That seems like a huge disregard for privacy if you have the suspects identified.


And I assume there is evidence of her being raped and beaten, excluding DNA.

There's evidence of her being beaten, but it's in pictures of her when she arrived at the home.


There is a neighbor witness who saw her leave and heard the racial epithets.

Yes, the neighbor heard the "grandpa" remark. This makes these guys azzholes, not rapists.


And there was the testimony of the other dancer who was there and ultimately called police.

The defense is claiming that the other escort stated that the alleged victim never told her she was sexually assaulted. As for calling the police, the defense is also reporting that the second escort did in fact call them, but she did it anonymously and filed the first 911 call which is clearly a false report based on the inconsistencies in the call.

There are broken fingernails, her money and her cell phone left in the house.

Broken fingernails which are shown in the photos while she is dancing and the money and cell phone left behind paint the picture of someone leaving hastily which doesn't equate to rape.

[Neil Lisst]

258. I'm calling the fight. Prosecution goes down to the TKO.

We're just having the standing eight count before he reels and hits the mat. The case is essentially over. The lack of DNA evidence makes her story too difficult to believe. She said they raped her vaginally, anally, and orally, repeatedly, and they choked and beat her. No DNA under those circumstances sounds impossible.

[Lex]

277. Of course, each piece of evidence is sought to be explained separately

just like the Defense did in the OJ case, for example.

That's standard operating procedure.

The defense attorney takes each piece of the puzzle apart and says each has a logical explanation, standing alone.

The DA shows that each piece of the puzzle makes a picture, taken together, of the crime that happened in the case.

That happens in each and every criminal case and that's what each side does.

[theboss]

290. I don't think she knows which three specifically

And I assume there is evidence of her being raped and beaten, excluding DNA.

I think there is evidence of an assault and possibly a rape. (Though there now appears to be some disagreement as to when she was actually bruised). But the problem is, who do you charge? If I was representing someone on trial for rape and there were 45 other people in the same room who met a similar description, I think I could make quite a bit of hay with that.

I have no doubt that the DA could make a case if he wanted to. I just think this is going to be an extremely difficult case without any physical evidence.

I also don't believe for a moment that the defense will allow this trial to take place anywhere near the city of Durham.

[Ganja Ninja]

267. Seems pretty soon to process all 47 DNA samples.

It usually takes weeks to get the results back from just one sample. This looks a little strange to me that they could process all 47 samples and make the comparisons so quickly. How long has it been since they took the samples?

[LisaL]

273. The test itself doesn't take weeks. If it takes weeks is because

the samples are waiting to be tested. Not because it takes weeks to run the tests.

[BrownOak]

281. The DA requested that the tests be expedited**

[theboss]

272. This story is going to end well

I think the DA got way way ahead of himself on this one. I would hope that he had some strong evidence in reserve or else this is going to look like a fishing expedition.

[cynatnite]

274. I am really sick of this story...

It's leading the news almost everywhere. While I do think it is important, I don't believe it warrants so much attention.

I either change the channel or mute the TV now.

[ThomCat]

293. I'm sure the victim is sick of it too.

I wish she could change the channel.

[Neil Lisst]

295. Hopefully, the victims will be able to get their reputations back

We know at least 44 of the 47 have been wrongly implicated, and it remains to be seen if the other 3 really did anything.

Sometimes the "victim" is the person accused, not the person doing the accusing. So far, we don't know who the victim is, we only know the accuser and those accused.

[ThomCat]

303. I notice that you show no compasion for the woman who was raped.

You don't consider her a victim at all.

I'm glad I don't know you.

[bloom]

276. "News doesn't end investigation or heal wounds"

News doesn't end investigation or heal wounds

http://www.newsobserver.com/100/story/427546.html


See also these blogs for more info/commentary:

http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2006/04/11/rape-isnt-the-only-crime-that-pits-one-persons-word-against-anothers/

http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2006/04/10/dna-evidence-doesnt-link-lacrosse-players-to-crime/


http://redstatefeminist.blogspot.com/

http://redstatefeminist.blogspot.com/2006/03/when-in-doubt-look-to-science.html

[FredScuttle]

282. Cross posted

I applaud Steve Gilliard's take on the case. First, he highlights some key passages from the AP article -

"Because the woman said her attackers were white, the team's sole black player was not tested. It was not known whether investigators tested for DNA other than the players'.

...................................

While Nifong's assistant told the AP on Monday the prosecutor would not comment on the findings, Nifong told The News & Observer of Raleigh he believes a sexual assault took place.

"I'm not saying it's over," he told the newspaper. "If that's what they expect, they will be sadly disappointed."

North Carolina Central University, where the alleged victim is a student, said after the results were released that the prosecutor would appear at a campus forum on Tuesday to discuss the case.

"The truth is if you speak to crime lab directors, they will tell you that in only a relatively small number of cases is there any DNA evidence," said Peter Neufeld, co-founder of the Innocence Project.

That last sentence is very important, especially in light of all those crowing that this means the case is over.

Some on this board think, absent of DNA evidence, that it will be impossible to convince twelve jurors that a stripper can be raped. I'd think the District Attorney has a case to make and he's in the process of doing that. He's not an idiot...he knew going into this that he'd have a high threshold to clear to convince a jury that a sex worker could be raped, DNA or no DNA evidence.

I am more ready to believe that a house full of drunken lacrosse players could include a couple sociopaths capable of sexual assault than I am that a woman would go through all of this just to lie....what would be her motive, exactly? And, if she's the grand schemer the defense is making her out to be, why didn't they advise their clients to talk to the police to begin with?

Benefit of the doubt? To a group which includes the guy who yelled to the black victim "Thank your grandpa for my cotton shirt, bitch"? Not a chance.


NEWS BLOG: http://stevegilliard.blogspot.com/2006/04/no-dnashe-has...

AP article: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/duke_lacrosse_investigation ;_ylt=AjAwYLVHJ5Z5.Zf0pvtBQ5Ws0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA2Z2szazkxBHNlYwN0bQ--

[FreeState]

305. Rape kit and time lines

Im surprised no one here has mentioned this. I use to work for a domestic violence shelter and we were trained in how women and men were given Rape Kits by the police. The basically comb the woman or man over a towel and collect every thing that falls off and then do a swab. This works great IF:

1) The rape kit must be used before a shower
2) the rape kit must be done ASAP
3) The person who was raped should not change their clothes etc before the kit is used.

Do we know if she showered etc? I have not seen any thing on this. (Its a long thread I might have missed it).

Even with no DNA it is possible to convict. I was a juror on a murder trial and we convicted with no DNA, Gun Powder or finger prints. It was all circumstantial.

[BrownOak]

307. ESPN Reports

that an unidentified witness at the Duke Hospital reported that the victim arrived in a red nightgown and with nothing on her feet. It seems pretty unlikely that she had showered or changed clothes.