With no Unitarian chuch near, I go to a Presbyterian--and I'm ashamed

[montieg]

that so-called "Christians" can even contemplate this type of crap. It's disgusting. Depressing. Paranoia-inducing. But I guess if you aint paranoid you aint payin attention.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-christians10apr10,0,6204444.story?coll=la-story-footer

[MADem]

1. Awww, doesn't the Bible say that worshippers have the right to be

BIGOTED ASSHOLES, so long as it is in the name of JEEEEEEESUS????

These people are about to jump the shark, I hope. This is horseshit, indeed.

[Jane Austin]

4. In case you're not kidding, No it doesn't.

At least not the New Testament which in Christianity superceded the Old.

[MADem]

13. Well, of course I was kidding, and Jeebus ain't in the ole testy, anyhoo!

[Squeech]

6. Actually

it does. Here's two examples that are shockingly standard dogma.

1) One of Noah's sons, Ham (if I remember correctly), dissed his dad for getting drunk on the ark. God punished him by making him the ancestor of the less favored racial groups. Therefore, good white Christians are doing God's work by maintaining the old prejudices.

2) The Hebrews who had escaped from Egypt were wandering in the desert for forty years. There were other migratory tribal groups in that part of the world in those days, and occasionally there would be encounters that would lead to battle. There were standards then, kinda like Geneva conventions, for what tactics were reasonable in such battles. One such tribe, the Amalekites, did something very wrong by those standards: they attacked the Hebrew column in the back, where the women and children and baggage carts were, rather than in front, where the fighting men were. The Hebrews did prevail, by the grace of God of course, but God was so pissed that He ordered the Hebrews to stamp out the Amalekites to the last man-- the original ethnic cleansing. There's a tradition that Haman, the bad guy in the Purim story (book of Esther), was an Amalekite. There's also a tradition that we're still supposed to be on a global search and destroy mission for any surviving Amalekite that may still be lurking among us. Axis of evil, anyone?

[TallahasseeGrannie]

10. Old Testament. Not valid

been replaced by the new.

[Squeech]

11. In that case

why does Phelps cite Leviticus in his exegesis for gay bashing? My (extremely limited) understanding of the issue is that there are "better" texts in Paul's Epistles.

More globally, why is there so little of Jesus in this strain of Christianity? None of these dogmas talk about God being love, or the Sermon on the Mount, or the parables. They all seem to hearken back to the angry Jehovah of the Old Testament. They really do act as if hate is a Christian virtue.

I don't mean this just as a rant; if you have a good answer, I'd like to know it.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

17. Good Lord you want me to defend the fundies

Well, I'll have a go at it because I think, really, they are few and far between.

First, Phelps. Well, he's a racist lunatic, obviously and you can't use him as any sort of example. I'm sure even the Big Three (Dobson, Robertson and Graham) would denounce him. He is insane, plain and simple and there will always be extremists like him on both sides of the issues.

A few weeks ago, as a teacher, I was invited to a "Christian Alliance" church service for teacher appreciation evening. Very, very fundamentalist congregation and the entire service was about Jesus, His love, etc. And the sermon was about the Beatitudes. Very lovely and loving. Then we went in to eat dinner and I caught a few snatches of conversation. I don't think they were listening in the sanctuary, because I didn't hear a lot about love. Not really hateful, but definitely folks who hadn't been listening. Why not? I don't know. I personally think they are being manipulated by the money raisers, the vote getters, and also they are afraid. Very afraid and very threatened by things they don't understand, things that are changing their world. And they are also very human. Not very educated, not overly endowed with smarts. Working folks, trying to make sense out of the world and not having a lot of success with it.

[MADem]

20. Those fundies cherrypick the passages, to keep their sheep, er, flock

in line. The theme is sit down, shut up, and open yer damn wallet, lest ye go to HELL!!! And of course, their "leadership" claims that they have the phone line to heaven, and if the sheep don't pay up here on earth, the good Reverend won't put in a good word for them. It's like the mafia--ya gotta pay yer tribute, and don't ask questions!!!

If they get any of that Jesus Love stuff (probably a rare sermon, to appeal to the outsiders) they've probably been hypnotized to tune it out!

[montieg]

21. Opinions are like..never mind, here's mine

I think this is of the same category as the poor white cracker "looking down" on a black middle class store-owner. Everybody wants somebody to be "better than". Seems like to me it's the same thing.

[Jane Austin]

27. Why does Phelps . . . [quote the Old Testament]?

You mean besides the fact that he's bug-f**king nuts?

Because he doesn't know his theology from a hole in the ground?

Because he's not a real Christian?

Because he's a Pharasee.

[Jane Austin]

25. Amen.

:)

[Ladyhawk]

32. Then what do you think of Paul the homophobe?

Or Jesus's commandment to bring his enemies before him and slay them?

Or the concept of hell, which was introduced in the gospels?

[TallahasseeGrannie]

34. I think Paul, who was not only a homophobe

but a misogynist, was a typical old Jew of his time period. I would assume that like in the Muslim states today in the Middle East, homosexuality was condemned and women were subjugated to inferior status. Indeed, it has only been in the last 20 years or so that we in this country have begun to consider it simply a sexual orientation and not a perversion. But Paul did some amazing organizational work and he had a way with words, so I give him props there. However, I don't think anything he writes is necessarily an edict.

Now, Christ's ending the parable with a bit of scary talk? (bring my enemies before me and slay them?) It does not appear it was a direct commandment, but rather a reminder that the Lamb of God does have some teeth. And if you look at the Bible as an epic story (some say myth) of Good vs. Evil, it makes sense for Him to flex a bit of spiritual muscle now and then.

I don't believe in hell with fire, but I believe that to be turned away from the spirit would be hell for me. This is one opinion I really hope I'm right about. I don't like surprises all THAT much!

[MADem]

14. I'm no expert, but ain't that the Old Testament?

Not the Jesus book, the Moses book??? My point was that if they invoke JEEEEEEEESUS, they think they can get away with anything!

Poor ole Jesus, bet he didn't count on so many assholes twisting his words!

[TallahasseeGrannie]

18. You know, Mad?

I think He knew well that his words would be twisted. If there was one thing He understood it was the weaknesses of human beings.

[immoderate]

31. If people always behaved properly...

...there would be no need for the Beatitudes, the preaching, and the love of god. This stuff, like the ten commandments is aimed at the things people commonly do, otherwise there would be no need. It's part of the human condition.

I appreciate that DU is a place where folks are generally more enlightened.

--IMM

[baldguy]

2. You can be an American

or one of these so-called "Christians" - not both.

[renate]

3. I love that snarky first line

"Ruth Malhotra went to court last month for the right to be intolerant."

In a conservative paper, the first line would have been about how poor Ruth feels that her rights are being infringed upon.

These religious nuts crack me up. They live in Bizarro World: "The message is, you're free to worship as you like, but don't you dare talk about it outside the four walls of your church," said Stephen Crampton, chief counsel for the American Family Assn. Center for Law and Policy, which represents Christians who feel harassed.

Seriously, has anybody, anywhere in this country told any Christian person "Don't you dare talk about religion outside the four walls of your church"? I mean, yeah, maybe some people might say "Get your religion out of my face, you zealots," but that's different.

[BOSSHOG]

5. No Steve, that's not the message

You are an ignorant, arrogant, constitution hating asshole. The message is you are not going to replace the constitution with your bible and that is for your own damn good. "Christians" like Steve don't deserve the constitutional liberties they would deprive other citizens of having because they hate in the name of Jesus Christ.

"Christians" are instructed to "feel harrassed." They are mindless drone lemmings with no concept of right and wrong.

[Lib Grrrrl]

7. But Don't You Understand??

To THEM, that is harassment!! To be told that THEIR religion is not welcome in YOUR life...that, to them, is harassment!!

but it's perfectly okay for them to tell gays, lesbians, bisexuals, and transgendered people...YOUR lifestyle is not welcome anywhere I can see it!

See, these zealot assholes want the ability to be offensive to others...but damned if anyone has the right to be offensive to them, in return! After all, didn't you know how intolerant, bigoted, and prejudiced JEEEEEEEZUS was?

Hell..He was SO intolerant that he hung out with the lepers! The prostitutes! The tax collectors! He hung out with all manner of riff-raff, and the social outcasts of His time! And it's because He was so intolerant that He did so....right??

Well, if you believe the zealots and nutjobs on the right, that is the only way I can square their behavior with being anything like Jesus! It MUST BE that the Jesus I learned and read about in the Gospels is totally wrong...that only THEY know what Jesus was like, and of course, he was completely intolerant and bigoted and hateful. Wasn't He?

Well, I sure know most of His so-called FOLLOWERS sure as hell are, anyway!

I swear, I just wish these intolerant zealots would just go away...move into all the same states, secede from the Union, and let them have their little hateful, bigoted, intolerant nation...separate from the rest of us.

I'm a Unitarian, myself...and I know how you feel, because the nearest Unitarian church to me is 30 miles away!! And with no job, and gas prices what they are, believe me, I do not go nearly as often as I would like to. Mostly, I just skip it, and remember God on His day, in my own home.

DAMNED if I'm gonna go to some other church, that preaches shit totally against what I believe...just to go to church on sunday. I'll make my own church, in my own home, and not be exposed to bigoted, zealotous assholes, thank you very much.

[montieg]

12. Out here in west Texas, the nearest

Unitarian church is 70 miles away. Gas at 2.75. sux

[Lib Grrrrl]

15. We Should Get Together

and form an ONLINE UU Church...for those of us Unitarians who live too damned far away from a UU church...and with gas prices being what they are...

Seriously, I wonder if there's enough interest in such a thing?

[renate]

30. I love that idea!!!

I'm not enough of an organizer (well, really it's also that I'm not particularly a Unitarian--never gone to any church at all, because I don't want to sit there listening to somebody), but if someone else were to start it up, or if there were a DU Unitarian discussion group or something like that, I'd be there with bells on.

This is a non sequitur, but I was just noodling around some of my old favorite blogs I haven't checked out for a while, and I found this wonderful and funny entry regarding the war on Christmas--suitable any time of year that Christians start to feel picked upon, poor babies:
http://www.mistercrunchy.com/index.shtml?2005_12_01_blogarchive.html#113405408993710320
"My way! My way! Everything must go MY WAY! But you know what? In your homes and in your churches, everything does go your way. Why isn't that enough? Is it reasonable to expect that outside in the public square everyone else is just going to bend over and let you bone them with a Yule log? No, it is not. My six year old daughter does not expect everyone on the planet to observe her birthday, and neither did Jesus."

[RubyDuby in GA]

8. I have a couple of friends who went to GA Tech and I emailed them

yesterday for some good, clean ribbing. I said I thought you had to be smart to get into Tech and that I didn't know they took in mentally challenged students now.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

9. This is the issue that is going to blow the fundies

sky high. It has already mowed down the Episcopal Church.

They need to re-examine the concept of tolerance. Tolerance doesn't mean you have to hang out with folks you don't agree with...it means you just mind your own business. And intolerant means you won't stand for something, which then gives you the right to mouth off, discriminate, etc. We all can be tolerant of vastly differing lifestyles and cultures. Intolerance should be reserved for situations where the weaker are victimized.

My two cents. They are way off base.

[MADem]

16. Yep, ya can't really square up Jesus and being shitty to people

That's why I said, above, that I hope this makes these bastards jump the shark. They need to crawl back into their hateful little hidy-holes, and hang out with their fellow haters, rather than spread their shit like wet dogturds across the carpet of life.

I've had enough of them, and I don't think I'm alone.

[montieg]

23. I like what Leonard Pitts says

And stupid is like kudzu. Once it gets a foothold, it just grows wild.

[keith the dem]

19. How about a UCC church?

The denomination has close ties to the Presbies, but much more tolerant...Tolerant is the wrong word, we do not just tolerate gays, they are an active integral part of the church, we say open and affirming. Go to www.ucc.org

[montieg]

22. You betca, Red Rider--

aint a thing wrong with UCC. In fact, just down the road in the next town is a UCC/Pres union church. It's just that theologically I'm probably closest to a christian unitarian.

[Rocknrule]

24. What would Jesus do...if he was a total asshole?

That's the attitude of these people

[janx]

26. Bashing Presbyterians--why?

?

[montieg]

28. Sorry--guess I missed something

I'm certainly not bashing Presbyterians and I didn't pick up that anyone else was. There is certainly some bashing of the Phelpsians and other fundamentalists (remember: nothing mental and damn little fun). But nothing I wrote was meant in any way to bash Presbyterians-- I are one!

[mcar]

29. These are not Christians

I don't care what they call themselves; they are as far away from Christ's teachings as is Bushco.

Unfortunately, all Christians get lumped in with these lying hypocrites.

[Ilsa]

33. PCUSA is one of the more liberal denominations of Christianity,

but not the most liberal. THey are accepting of homosexuality within membership, but not for ministers (we have a ways to go, still). I don't think they are ready to fight for gay marriage (another shortcoming), but they are very liberal with respect to other social issues, such as immigration, taking care of the poor, fairness in taxation, etc. PCUSA has consistantly opposed the invasion of Iraq and pre-emptive war.

[Lost4words]

35. why attend church at all, cant you pray and find god at home?

is god only listening at church? I dont get it.

[RB TexLa]

36. She doesn't have to go to Ga Tech

If she were Amish I don't think the court would force Ga Tech to allow her to keep a horse and buggy parked outside a dormitory. Rules are rules, if she wants a religious education in a religious setting then she should go enroll at a religious university. If she feels the education that Ga Tech provides is worth putting up with rules she doesn't like then she just has to put up with them.