Help me out. Can illegals get healthcare that US Citizens can't?

[Schema Thing]

I keep hearing this (THEY get free healthcare, blah blah blah), and I'm skeptical.

Here is a quote off another discussion board:

"I don't mind people coming here to make a better life, but like you said, do it the legal way. What gets me the most upset is that the ones who are coming here illegally get free heath care and here I am. a citizen and I can't even get health care at a discount. What gives?"

[beam me up scottie]

1. That poster can always go to a free clinic.

And not paying for medical treatment is not the same thing as getting it for "free".
The moran can always refuse to pay his bills or use a fake identity.

I suppose he'd be happier if they let illegal immigrants die on hospital doorsteps.

I hear this all the time from coworkers.

Idiots.

[Schema Thing]

2. I agree, but I want to know specifically if illegals have access to

something the rest of us do not?

Aren't illegals simply accessing healthcare that is in place for low-income citizens in the first place? Or are they accessing something more?

[mondo joe]

4. No and yes. Illegals don't have access to something legals do not - but

it should be noted that community health centers do have limited resources and use by someone means there's less for someone else.

That said, I am quite opposed to restricting healthcare to exclude illegals.

[kestrel91316]

28. Well, I have no medical insurance at the moment, but am self-employed.

I think I would have a VERY hard time walking into the ER at Olive View Hospital (LA County facility)and getting anything for free. At the very least, I would be charged the uninsured premium fees and be expected to pay in full on the spot. At the very worst, if I had NO means to pay on the spot, they would hound me to the ends of the earth and ruin my credit for life, and sue my a--. And bankruptcy won't clear this stuff, IIRC.

I am under the distinct impression the illegals (who seem to get ALL their care at the ER) have no fear of this sort of thing, maybe because they are instantly off the hook for the whole fee. Because they're "poor" (yeah,like I'm "rich").

[mondo joe]

61. I don't know about your ER. I know community health centers provide

primary care on a sliding fee scale for the uninsured. My point, however, was that they work with limited resources and if they are providing a lot of care for illegals there is less resource for non illegals.

That said, I oppose any restriction on access to health care services for illegals, if only because it's a very bad public health policy.

[kestrel91316]

67. I don't think Los Angeles has "community health centers" anymore.

[mondo joe]

70. Google indicates a few, and yields an association of community

clinics in LA County at http://www.ccalac.org/gwHome.asp

Community Health Centers (CHC) exist across the country.

[kestrel91316]

72. I think they are only for people who can prove they have no income

and/or NO assets.

[mondo joe]

74. I certainly don't know the LA clinics but I know that's far from the case

in the Seattle area.

My understanding is that they are funded by HRSA to provide primary care for the uninsured on a sliding fee scale.

[kestrel91316]

79. Years ago I could go to Planned Parenthood for my annual exam

and BCP Rx, and that was sliding scale. But they are not for general health, just OB-GYN.

[EFerrari]

76. Exactly. I was in Santa Monica for three years and there

was a community clinic about three blocks away.

I had to stay home and take care of my husband and work from home at anything I could. It was pretty difficult. But, while I managed to feed us and pay the rent, there was nothing more than that.

I barely qualified to go to that clinic even though my income was well below the poverty level in that county at that time.

When I did try to go, there was a waiting room overflowing with really sick people. I sat there for most of the day and then had to go home without being seen. I couldn't leave my husband alone for so long and I was too sick to sit straight up for six hours.

We have a problem.

On edit: This is the kicker. I couldn't prove that I was poor. lol

[lovuian]

188. Theres a question how do we know if a ilegal has assets in

another country??? How do we confiscate that if they don't pay their bills

What you are seeing is the rules for an American who can not pay their bills is DIFFERENT for an ilegal
Many Americans are filing Chapter 7 Bankruptcy from medical bills...

[annabanana]

118. they "have no fear"

because they have nothing... no credit to ruin, no assets to seize.. Their options are, get help at an ER or die.
Would you like to change places with them?

[Iris]

206. Not necessarily.

I have insurance but the woman I work for doesn't. She owns her own company and is not married (my ins. comes from husband's co.). She was in the hospital 3 times last year and they wrote her entire bill off.

[beam me up scottie]

7. No, that's a republican myth.

They do not get citizens' benefits.

And they don't get welfare either-that's another common myth.

[laheina]

8. Thank you!!

The voice of informed reason is so *damned* refreshing! :D

[beam me up scottie]

9. You're welcome!

I'm glad I have someplace where I can use informed reason.

It has no effect on the boobs I work with.

:D

[EFerrari]

11. Lol!

:hi:

[beam me up scottie]

12. !

[lovuian]

189. When a baby is born here in America that baby is put on the

WIC program even if the mother is an ilegal... yes the baby is an American but how much taxes has that baby paid??? so the mother gets access because the baby is an American citizen to benefits...

and this is NO MYTH... come to a border town's hospital and come to the maternity ward and nursery...

[Iris]

207. but how many taxes will that baby pay over his/her lifetime?

And how much would it cost taxpayers if the child's health became impaired b/c of lack of proper nutrition during his/her developmental stage?

[proud2BlibKansan]

94. No

There is a law in this country that says sick people may not be turned away when they need emergency health care. BUT undocumented immigrants are not eligible for Medicaid.

[Princess Turandot]

119. FYI That can vary by state. In NYS for example..

undocumented indigent women who are pregnant can enroll in Medicaid for OB care. States can provide benefits beyond the federal benefit definitions. I think that funding comes from state & local money. I don't know if it's eligible for federal matching funds: it may not be.

[proud2BlibKansan]

131. No federal money

I am pretty sure about this since I teach kids who are from undocumented families. We have a health clinic in our school. All our kids get health and dental care. We have to find grants from private foundations to fund the health care of kids who are not US citizens. No govt funding may be used on them.

[LostinVA]

211. You're correct -- that's actually what happens

Usually at ERs or free clinics.

[shamrock]

3. We have plenty

of our own citizens dying because they can't afford to get the health care that they need.

[beam me up scottie]

5. So let the illegals die.

How liberal.

[shamrock]

26. What are you talking about?

I didn't say that (or mean that). What I meant was that if they don't have medical care, well, plenty of people here don't either. I didn't say it's good, or ok. Geesh!

[beam me up scottie]

32. Why use false comparisons and right wing talking points?

That's EXACTLY what the op was talking about.

[shamrock]

37. What? I don't understand you. what "false comparisons

and right wing talking points?" . 'Yep, I've been here a long time, and this is exactly why I don't like to post much.

[beam me up scottie]

42. Did you READ the op?

It's not exactly cryptic.

[lovuian]

190. No what we are saying is stay in Mexico and get your

healthcare there cause thats where you are a citizen at...

[RagingInMiami]

213. If you think Mexicans are entering this country to access our generous

and efficient healthcare system, then you must be drinking the Kool-Aid.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[laheina]

6. Usually, illegals don't seek medical care.

If something is about to fall off, then they may, but they are usually more afraid of getting caught and deported. If they get basic medical care, and this doesn't happen often, then they will pay cash at a Med 7.

My inlaws were illegal when my sister in law was born, some 25 years ago. They saved up the cost of the delivery in cash.

This is just something that conservatives say to get us all riled up. :shrug:

[EFerrari]

10. Exaclty. Most people are very afraid of deportation

and try very hard not to have any kind of contact with officialdom.

It's a Republican talking point to stir up hatred.

[SoCalDem]

91. And there are little shifty local "clinicas" in their communities

Some people go there and the care they get may or may not be the best around..

[fujiyama]

121. Hmmm

sounds like Dr. Nick Riviera from the Simpsons!

[OzarkDem]

129. Actually they do

and some states, like California, do provide access to health care for illegals, including free mammography, pelvic exams, pap tests, etc. If diagnosed with cancer, they recieve care.

[EFerrari]

198. Back up this laughable claim. n/t

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

203. See #200. -nt

[lovuian]

193. as a person who works in the medical field where are you

coming with this stuff... just come to a Texas border hospital and I'll show you a maternity ward and nursery filled with healthy ilegal women and legal American babies... Sorry but you guys are truly trying to perpetuate a myth and NOT REALITY!!!

Save up for a delivery some 25 years ago

How much do you think delivering a baby cost in America NOW 2006 and heaven help ya if the baby is a premie...

try saving 100,000 dollars for a premie who is in the NICU...

Mexico has hospitals let them go to their hospitals in Mexico...

[FreakinDJ]

13. Any Emergency room funded by Medicade

[beam me up scottie]

16. I'm fairly certain Medicaid doesn't pay for illegal immigrants.

Their kids, if they were born here, but NOT the parents.

[lumberjack_jeff]

46. Everyone who works in this country has a SS card...

... whether they have it legitimately or not. A SS number will entitle you to medicare or medicaid, if the other eligibility conditions are met.

[beam me up scottie]

51. Not everyone has an ss card.

And again, Medicaid pays the HOSPITAL for services to citizens and some legal immigrants.

It does not pay for illegal immigrants.

[lumberjack_jeff]

136. Everyone who works for a law-abiding company does.

[proud2BlibKansan]

96. The other eligibility conditions would include US CITIZENSHIP

duh

[lumberjack_jeff]

135. Sigh.

Posession of a SS card is proof of citizenship.

[proud2BlibKansan]

138. Sigh

Not in my world. A birth certificate is necessary to prove citizenship. SS cards are NOT proof of identification or birthplace.

The only time you need a SS card is for your employer.

[lumberjack_jeff]

140. In my experience, that is not so.

But it may vary from state to state.

[Horse with no Name]

142. You are wrong

Medicaid, Food Stamps, etc are ALL federal. The states can determine the benefit levels, however, it is all federally mandated.
They have the same guidelines.
I GUARANTEE you that simply furnishing Social Security cards will not get you federal aid.

http://www.cms.hhs.gov/MedicaidEligibility/05_Immigrants.asp#TopOfPage

Acceptable Proof of Citizenship

The following sections from the Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS) proposed rule published August 4, 1998, describe documents acceptable as proof of a claim of U.S. citizenship by a Medicaid applicant or recipient. The documents are listed in general order of value as proof of U.S. citizenship.

1. Section 104.23(a) lists primary evidence of citizenship.
2. Section 104.23(b) lists secondary evidence of citizenship.
3. Section 104.23(c)-(e) provides other means to verify the U.S. citizenship of an applicant.

* Paragraph (c) allows the state Medicaid agency to use its own or Federal agency records, such as Social Security Administration (SSA) records, as a substitute for requiring presentation of evidence of citizenship.
* Paragraphs (d) and (e) provide a means to verify citizenship when documents or agency records are missing or not readily obtainable.
* Paragraphs (d) and (e) should be used only when documents listed in paragraphs (a) and (b) are unavailable and a check of agency records described in paragraph (c) does not provide useful information. In all cases of claimed U.S. citizenship, where a declaration under penalty of perjury has been obtained, the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services (CMS) expects states to apply the documentation and verification procedures in a fair and non-discriminatory manner.


These are the documents that are acceptable for proof of citizenship (pdf file)
http://www.cms.hhs.gov/MedicaidEligibility/downloads/ProofofCitizenship2.pdf

[proud2BlibKansan]

143. Social Security cards are NOT IDs.

They were never intended to serve that purpose.

Also, you don't have to be a US citizen to have a SS card. Hence, it does not prove citizenship.
http://www.ssa.gov/pubs/10002.html

[proud2BlibKansan]

186. Well I am not the only one trying to tell you this

And I am wondering why I am even wasting my time.

[marions ghost]

134. I know of people who work without an SS card

so I don't think that's quite true, tho it may be a large no.

[proud2BlibKansan]

95. Yes you are right

[OzarkDem]

130. In some states they do

Because states pick up a portion of the Medicaid tab, they sometimes supplement Medicaid funds to include coverage for illegal aliens.

[GOPisEvil]

192. Undocumented immigrants can get covered for emergencies.

[lovuian]

194. exactly so who pays for the ilegal who gets care in the ER

if they can't pay then the hospital has to eat that cost... that cost cause Americans who have health Insurance to pay... George Bush gave 4 billion dollars to help border hospitals from going out of business

thats 4 billion from our taxes...

wonder how many Americans could use that money...

[Bozita]

19. Don't all ERs accept Medicaid?

[beam me up scottie]

21. Medicaid pays the hospital.

But NOT for illegal immigrants.

[marions ghost]

123. so the state is paying for it?

is this how it works

[frankenforpres]

14. like a game of telephone

i dont think you can not admit someone at the emergency room. this somehow gets distorted into "free healthcare"

[beam me up scottie]

15. Precisely.

Welcome to DU! :hi:

[EFerrari]

58. Yes. You can't turn anyone away unless you can.

If you make them wait long enough, they go away.

If you can shame them with their poverty, they go away.

If you manipulate their vulnerability well enough, they go away.

It's a pretty sad state of affairs, when Big Pharma and Insurance owns "health" care.

[laheina]

98. Hi frankenforpres!!

Welcome to DU!! :hi:

[Sinti]

17. HHS says you have to be a lawful immigrant or citizen for Medicaid

This is what most haters are talking about. In my experience, if you go to a for-profit hospital and don't have insurance, you can basically die in their parking lot. It's a pay or go away kind of world out there. However, some Catholic hospitals and the like have different rules.

Hospitals that receive government funding may also help you, if it's a real emergency, i.e., you are bleeding to death or something like that. They will expect you to pay the bill, but people often don't. In this way they may get care, but citizens can also get care in this fashion.


"Many groups of people are covered by Medicaid. Even within these groups, though, certain requirements must be met. These may include your age, whether you are pregnant, disabled, blind, or aged; your income and resources (like bank accounts, real property, or other items that can be sold for cash); and whether you are a U.S. citizen or a lawfully admitted immigrant. The rules for counting your income and resources vary from state to state and from group to group. There are special rules for those who live in nursing homes and for disabled children living at home.

This be the Medicare Eligibility page of HHS.gov
http://www.cms.hhs.gov/MedicaidEligibility/

[williesgirl]

18. Free clinic my ass. Ours is open Thursday nights for 3 hrs only -

and they're terrible. A friend of mine had tests done there to determine whether she has diabetes since her symptoms were indicative of it. They got the results back AND NEVER NOTIFIED HER FOR OVER THREE MONTHS THAT SHE DOES HAVE DIABETES. She went back for related problems 3 months later and they "mentioned" it to her. She was furious but there's nothing she can do about it. They are swamped and don't exactly have the best doc or nurses.

She's a single mom who cleans houses for a living but can't make enough to live on. Works really hard, very honest.

Said a neighbor of hers is illegal and gets free health care/prescription samples from a local doctor who "feels for these people". My friend tried to get in to see him at even a reduced rate and was told full rate or nothing. Doesn't pay to be a hard working American anymore.

Sorry but I'm agreeing with Lou Dobbs on this issue. I'm not for sending them all home, but we simply MUST CLOSE OUR BORDERS or soon there'll be more illegals than legals.

[beam me up scottie]

20. " Doesn't pay to be a hard working American anymore." ???

Wow, I think I work with you.

[EFerrari]

25. It's not the fault of undocumented workers that our health system

sucks. I had to use "free clinics" for few years while my husband was ill and I had to take care of him. I decided I'd rather die at home than in their waiting rooms. And I had to fight hard for any care I got for him.

I can only imagine what it would have been like if we didn't speak English or if we were here without papers. I'd probably be a merry widow today.

Sorry, Lou Dobbs is an @ss. And anyone who thinks illegal immigrants somehow magically "get" services that "hardworking Americans" don't or can't get, has no real understanding of what it's like to live in that way. It's dangerous and you are always at the mercy of unscrupulous people.

[williesgirl]

33. Since when did "illegal" become "undocumented"?

If I drive without a license, am I undocumented? If I illegally cross the border into Canada or any other country, am I merely undocumented or in their country illegally?

Is there any other country in the world where I can enter illegally and not get thrown in jail or best case, sent home?

Sorry, but I'm getting tired of all the excused for folks who just plain broke the law. I know too many legal immigrants who waited their turn and did everything right to just excuse the tens of millions who continue to ignore our laws.

With every "guest worker program" or amnesty, more and more pour in. Enough is enough.

[EFerrari]

38. So, you believe that there are illegal people?

How do you square that with being a liberal?

Nevermind. We're going to disagree so we might as well agree to do that.

[williesgirl]

43. Yes, I am a liberal, but fair is fair. As long as we keep letting folks

cross the border, employers of all types will continue to exploit them. My friend (American)cleans houses for a living to raise her son on her own. She can't compete with the "undocumenteds" because wealthy homeowners are paying those folks only about $50 to clean 4,000 - 5,000 sq ft homes. Same for the businesses she used to be able to clean on weekends. Seems she was replaced by "undocumenteds" who easily undercut her fair rates ($90 for those same homes - takes 8 hrs to clean them).

Another friend is a legal, documented immigrant who is having trouble earning a decent wage because everyone seems to expect him to work for cheap under the table due to his hispanic background.

I certainly don't support not providing emergency medical care to anyone who needs it and is unable to pay. But I repeat we have got to close our borders or our grandkids will be at the mercy of every scumbag employer who continues to get cheap illegal labor.

[fleabert]

93. A family member of mine hires a woman to clean her house.

This woman is a Mexican immigrant, i do not know if she has legal or illegal status on her documentation. the house she cleans is around 2500 sq. feet and she makes 50 bucks an hour, three hour minimum. My ass someone cleans a "4,000 - 5,000 sq ft home" for fifty bucks flat, documented or not. People who clean houses bring their own materials to do so, fifty bucks to clean a spread like that is a stupid assertation, it doesn't happen. Anyone who has ever cleaned a house professionally would laugh at this, whether they came to this country legally or not...

Your 'friend' is lying to you.

[sandnsea]

102. Fifty dollars an HOUR???

Now you sound like John McCain and his $50 hr lettuce pickers. Nobody gets paid $50 hr to clean a house, not anywhere in the country. That's over $100,000 a year. If people were making that kind of money to clean houses, we wouldn't even have immigrant and social service threads because they'd be a sought after demographic. I really don't know how much house cleaners are making these days, but $90 for 8 hours sounds about right, based on $5-$7 minimum wage.

[countryjake]

104. Those rates are from the 80s.

I live in a rural area and the going rate here is around $18-$20 hr for a "toilet technician" and the wealthier folks pay much more. However, those rates took some unity on the part of independent housecleaners and those who work thru companies make much less. I have heard that cityfolk pay thru the nose for good help these days, so maybe that $50/hr figure is not so far off. I do wonder.

[sandnsea]

105. I don't believe you

I just don't. I live in a rural area and NOBODY makes that kind of money. Attorneys, doctors, engineers, they make $100 plus. Nobody else. If somebody is paying $20 hour to clean houses, I'm starting tomorrow.

[countryjake]

108. The rate was 10 bucks an hour fifteen years ago!

Do you think that housekeepers don't get raises? Any cleaner worth their salt becomes a valued employee and is treated accordingly.

[sandnsea]

113. Where??

No place I've ever lived. And, in case you haven't been keeping track, some segments of society haven't seen their wages increase. Not even double since 1990. Some haven't even doubled since 1980 when minimum wage was $3.10. Criminy. Who is going to pay these women $20 an hour when half the people don't even make that much themselves. The median wage in this country is only around $25,000. People are not making the kind of money you think they are.

[countryjake]

115. It doesn't matter to me whether you believe it or not...

and generally, people who make $25,000 a year surely clean their own houses. It's the middle class...the small business owners, shop-managers and doctors, lawyers, and other professionals who can't take the time to make their floors shine, so they hire little women to slosh their johns for them. I was making $8/hr back in 1986, but that scale did depend on my reputation and skill. I'm up in washington state, which has a higher cost of living, so maybe that might explain your shock, but I also know cleaners in Ohio who are only a few dollars behind that $18-$20/hr rate. It is a very good living; if you're able and willing, go for it. Don't count on being able to move your bones once you hit old-age tho, and benefits and pension plans are rare.

[sandnsea]

116. I live in Oregon

Maybe a cleaning woman living in Seattle, but not rural America. Cleaners a few dollar behind $18 would be what, $14?? Just a hair above $90 for 8 hours, just like I said. I'd bet most cleaning women are making $11-$14 an hour and very few are making more.

Oh, and doctors, lawyers, professionals... middle class??? When your income is in the top 10%, and in many cases top 2%, you're not middle class. Household income of $150,000 puts one in the top 5% of earners. That's why I don't believe the $50 hour cleaning woman story at all, and seriously doubt the $20 hour one because that would be a middle class income of $42,000 a year.

[countryjake]

122. I haven't lived or worked in Seattle since 1981...

so are you saying I'm a liar and telling me I don't live and haven't worked in a rural area for the past 25 years? Or never earned a living? I have a friend who lives in another very rural area in Ohio who earns $16/hr doing the same exact drudge...course she's done the same houses for the past 30 yrs. or so, is a respected and valuable employee, and is skilled at what she does, so she earns what her labor is worth. I'm not speaking of people who find themselves with free-time during summer vacation or need a quick job off-the-books or think it a lark to pick up a bucket to earn enough for a trip to Bermuda...I'm talking about hard-working folks who, when filling out a form or application, actually write "housekeeper" on the occupation line.

I don't calculate class by one's income...if you sell your sweat and labor to another, you're working class no matter how much you earn. I was right there when the right-wing re-defined "class" for Union workers and other blue-collars and white collars, too, trying to convince us that we might have a stake in serious matters of this country if we only fancied ourselves as a notch higher than the lowly rest...that happened right before Reagan came along and yanked the power of our Unions away from us! You can remain deluded by a false image all you want, but most workers who fell for that bull back then certainly know better now and don't listen to or care what pretty labels the ruling class feigns to rank us.

[sandnsea]

145. Well stop changing your story

First it was $18-$20 in rural America. Then up to Washington state, and just as I thought, Seattle. Now $16 in Ohio.

I've asked. I've checked classifieds. $10-12 hr, $60 house is the going rate in most of the country. Actual house cleaning businesses with little vans and catchy names can get away with $100 a house, but their cleaners don't make $100.

They're working class.

And don't ever come around me telling me that $150,000+ doctors and lawyers are working class who know anything about what it is to really work in this country and try to survive on $20,000 a year.

[countryjake]

147. Have a problem understanding plain English?

Maybe you should read what I wrote, one more time.

From my first post on this thread:

"I live in a rural area and the going rate here is around $18-$20 hr for a "toilet technician" and the wealthier folks pay much more."

Further:

"It's the middle class...the small business owners, shop-managers and doctors, lawyers, and other professionals who can't take the time to make their floors shine, so they hire little women to slosh their johns for them."

"I haven't lived or worked in Seattle since 1981"

[sandnsea]

149. But come to find out

The only reference you really have is someone in Ohio making $16 hour, who has had the same clients for years. Not the normal situation. I've asked, people pay $60 - $100 for a 4 br house. $10-$14 hour. I also checked Portland classifieds, that's also what custodians at places like OHSU make. There was even a company advertising for a cleaning person for $8.50 hour. That's the way it is in most of the country. The idea that individual people are making $20-$50 an hour to clean is ludicrous.

[countryjake]

150. Go ahead and think what you wish...

but do not imply that practically half of my working life is fictitious. Do I have to supply my time notebooks or house files, or those of many, many of my friends, to you, in order for you to believe that working as housekeeper can and will earn a single-mom a decent living in this country?

The idea that you have an image of someone like Carol Burnett's cleaning lady persona or that housekeeping is some worthless occupation is what is truly ludicrous.

Most in the trade never ever need to advertise; word of mouth is all it takes for a skilled cleaner to build-up waiting lists, and most efficient housekeepers do NOT skip around from client to client, once they've established a reputation and have acquired each week's worth of homes.

And those companies invariably rip-off good cleaners; anyone serious about earning a living in housekeeping will quickly move on from those set-ups, get their own license, and set out to become a trusted and respected service-provider.

[sandnsea]

151. And they make $10-$14 hour

That's the way it is. A decent living? News flash. $15 is the median hourly wage in this country, $14 for women. That's where the real "middle class" is at.

I don't equate people's work with what they're paid, that's a game of the rich, er, I guess it's the politically correct "working class" now. There are people in this country who make $5.00 hour, I wouldn't demean their work either. You're the one who has been using condescending terms like "hire little women to slosh johns" and "toilet technician".

You remind me of the women who came to my small town in Montana from gated communities in California. They were shocked when their daughter's new friend was the daughter of the bar owner or bus driver, or, gads, even someone on welfare. They had never mixed with "those people" before. I'm sure they thought they knew something about working people in their little gated communities too, and hurried to build more of them to protect them from the riff-raff in rural Montana. :eyes:

[countryjake]

155. Don't even presume to tell me about real working people...

my first cleaning job got me $.50 an hour, my first factory job got me $1.60 an hour; after more than five years at both, my seniority and skill earned me $1.50 an hour cleaning and $2.48 an hour as a machinist. I use the term "toilet technician" because that is what we call ourselves, privately; hell, I've even written that on my IRS forms, in the past, just to get a rise out of those jackasses. Sloshing johns is what the work entails, aesthetically pleasing or not.

My grandmother worked as a housekeeper for over 50 years; she still was sloshing at the age of 85, so don't give me this crap about mixing with "those people". I know very well what it means to work for a living in this country, how the working class is used by both the ruling class and your nice little "middle class", and I can't for the life of me figure out why you choose to argue such points with me, when we both know who the real riff-raff actually are.

[sandnsea]

156. And yet

You also said, "Don't count on being able to move your bones once you hit old-age tho"; and the "nice little middle class" came from YOU pretending doctors and lawyers making $150,000+ are the "working class".

Buh bye.

[countryjake]

160. Why do you insist on misstating what I have said?

I repeat, from my earlier post on this subject, when you inquired who pays housekeepers:

"It's the middle class...the small business owners, shop-managers and doctors, lawyers, and other professionals"

Tell me, where in that statement do I define doctors or lawyers as working class?

[sandnsea]

166. Here

"I don't calculate class by one's income...if you sell your sweat and labor to another, you're working class no matter how much you earn."

[fleabert]

165. you are hired.

once a week, Wednesdays work for you? I need about three hours a week- bring your own supplies. I don't expect windows or laundry, aside from tidying up the laundry area.

[sandnsea]

167. Fly me in

Seriously, if anybody offered me $20 an hour to clean their house, I'd snap it up in an instant. Nobody is. The only people in my town that make more than that are doctors, lawyers, accountants, contractors, and similar professionals including plumbers and electricians. That's it. Everybody else is at either minimum wage, or in the $10-$14 range. Including housekeepers.

[fleabert]

170. if I flew you in, you'd have to work that off first.

plus all the room and board I would have to provide. :-) you'd be 'employed' for life!

The cost of living makes a big difference in this discussion. I live in the Bay area. My family of whom I reference lives in Dallas and San Antonio, major cities. My lawyer friend in Austin makes much much much more than 20 bucks an hour, try 350. And he bills by the minute. It depends on where you live. But- 50 bucks for 8 hrs = 6.25 p/hr - not including the cost of transportation, materials, etc...it does not work out that the OP was telling the truth. a house that large cannot physically be cleaned professionally in 8 hrs by one person, and they would charge WAY more than 50 bucks flat. And that was my original point.

I would hope that housing where you live is much cheaper than here too- I can't find a house, other than a mobile home, for less than 250,000- and those at that price are fixer-uppers in dubious neighborhoods.

[sandnsea]

175. $250,000, that's housing here too

Because you $350 hr professionals keep coming up here when you retire!!! :)

Again, one last time, I was addressing the $50 an hour claim, not the $100 a day.

[fleabert]

177. :-) I wish I was one making that much!

I don't, not nearly. I make $10 p/h before taxes. :-( not bad, but not great either. esp. here.

truce. we are both right. :-)

[fleabert]

141. Google is your friend...

Q: I do not need all of the services included in a MoreHands cleaning visit but I do need some specific help with a couple areas of my home. What will my price be to clean this list items?
A: MoreHands maids will gladly work off of your cleaning list at our hourly rate charge. ($75 an hour with a 1.5-hour minimum).

http://www.morehands.com/faqs.html#Billing

This is a discount site, and it includes less than what my family recieves for their regular services
Current rates:
3 hours $ 65.00 Up to 1000 sq. ft.
3 1/2 hours $ 75.00 Up to 1200 sq. ft.
4 hours $ 86.00 Up to 1500 sq. ft.
4 1/2 hours $97.00 Up to 1800 sq. ft.
5 hours $ 107.00 Up to 2200 sq. ft.
5 1/2 hours $ 118.00
6 hours $ 129.00
6 1/2 hours $ 140.00
7 hours $150.00
7 1/2 hours $ 161.00
8 hours $171.00 Up to 3000 sq. ft.
8 1/2 hours $185.00
9 hours $193.00

All prices INCLUDE taxes.
http://www.fabuloussavings.com/html/client/open.php?page_id=937

These folks don't tell you how much their employees make per hour, but it sounds like it's better than 10 per hour, and they are employees, not independent contractors (hence, they do not have to buy their own cleaning materials and products)

When you are hiring a cleaning service ask this question... are you being charged by the hour or by the job? How much time will actually be spent cleaning your home? If the company is VAGUE about how much time they will spend in your home there is a REASON...and it is this... Their employees are being paid a percentage of the job rather than on an hourly basis. So for example if you are paying $100 and they have 3 employees in your home each being paid 20% of the job, that would mean each employee earns $20.00 for doing your home.

There is a real problem with paying employees this way. The problem is this.... if the employees take 2 hours each to clean your home, then they earn $10 per hour, but if they can rush through your home and get it done in 1 hour then they have made $20 per hour. That's nice for the employee but not good for the customers. In the first scenario they spent a total of 6 work hours in your home for the $100 you spent, in the second case they spent only 3 work hours for this same $100. The lack of quality of the job in the second case will show! The other thing is because they are rushing they will land up breaking a lot of things in your home!!

THE PROBLEM with this is that the way the employees are compensated forces them to RUSH. Initially they may do a good job in your home, but after a while they will take less and less time in your home but you will still continue to pay the same rate even though you are getting less work! In addition, if the company has under quoted the job the employees feel like they are being cheated because they cannot earn a fair amount in the amount of time they need to do the job .. so they do a bad job for you .. neither you or the employee wins .. the only person winning is the company. As a company we do not want to do this to our employees or our customers. Our goal is to charge a fair price, give you a realistic expectation of what you will get for what you are paying, pay our employees fairly so that they provide you with quality service. .. win,win,win for all!!

http://www.coloradohousecleaning.com/

There are people who make a good living cleaning houses. Cleaning one large house alone, say five hours, actually means about 7 -8 hrs of work- think about all the little things- booking the job, marketing yourself, purchasing materials, load times, travel time (I know she lives about 45 minutes away from my relative), paperwork, insurance, business maitenance, etc... Someone who is in demand for their services will do well. Perhaps not all clients pay the same amount, because they do not want the same services, it's structured that people get what they pay for. My relative gets what they pay for, amazing work. That 'five hours' ($250) is her only job of the day, unless she wants to kill herself, it's a hard hard hard job.

I have hired a move-out cleaning service several times in my life, and I have never paid less than 250 for three-four hours of work, not including tip. For three people that works out to about 27 $p/hr, so they probably made 20 each since the company took a cut. (plus my tip, which is cash) and a move out is cheaper than regular service.

If you haven't ever hired a cleaning service, you know not of which you speak.

[sandnsea]

146. I checked classifieds

I asked people. $60-$100 house. Cleaning people do not make $50 hour. They make $10-14 hour. That's who most people use to do cleaning, not "More Hands" cleaning businesses.

Even you talk about paying $250, to a business, for a move-out cleaning, more expensive. For a 4 hour house cleaning, OH, by THREE people. Nobody making $50 an hour there.

Immigrants are charging exactly what citizens are charging. The only reason somebody would hire an expensive company is if they waited until the last minute to find someone and were in a desperate situation. If most cleaning women in the country waited for that scenario, they'd be broke.

[fleabert]

164. I am speaking from personal and familial experience.

There are cheaper options, but it doesn't mean that some people don't make a good living from cleaning homes. The OP stated that

"My friend (American)cleans houses for a living to raise her son on her own. She can't compete with the "undocumenteds" because wealthy homeowners are paying those folks only about $50 to clean 4,000 - 5,000 sq ft homes. Same for the businesses she used to be able to clean on weekends. Seems she was replaced by "undocumenteds" who easily undercut her fair rates ($90 for those same homes - takes 8 hrs to clean them). "

I called bullshit, and used my own experience to call it. You are saying there are cheaper options than my examples, fine, but find anyone who will, on a regular basis, clean a 5000sq ft home in 8 hrs for less than a hundred bucks and I will shut up. (that's about 12 bucks an hour for one person, and usually it is two people working together, so it's at the most 6 bucks an hour each) One person could not, realistically, clean a house that large in 8 hours.

I wouldn't hire someone for less than 20 bucks an hour, for my home, which is significantly smaller than 5000 sq ft. And, for the record, I would hire someone without paperwork, which makes me the devil in some eyes, but not to the person who may or may not eat if they don't work that day. I would also do everything I could to help them become legal if they would let me.

I also won't work on May 1, in solidarity with my neighbors and family, Mexican immigrants.

[sandnsea]

169. "She makes $50 bucks an hour"

That is what YOU said and that is what I addressed. When I did, I said $100 for cleaning 8 hours, sure. That would be right in the $10-$14 an hour range that I said people make. Now you're trying to say that's what you claimed all along. You didn't. You said "she", one person, fifty bucks an hour. Yeah, that's bullshit. Some companies charge $50 an hour and send out two or three cleaners, totally different situation.

I don't care all that much who you pay to clean your house as long as you pay the same amount to the undocumented worker. I think it's a basic issue of worker exploitation, of all workers, here and overseas. But don't insult the hard work people do for very low wages by saying there's $50 an hour menial labor available, there isn't.

[fleabert]

174. that one person I know, my family member, pays one person,

fifty bucks an hour, once a week, for 5-6 hours of work as a housekeeper. Sometimes her husband comes with her to help, but not usually.

I have personally paid 20 bucks an hour for one person to clean my house, for three hours, once a week.

I would pay anyone that much, I would not exploit an undocumented worker. I am not trying to insult anyone, especially people that work very hard for low wages. I have been one. I have been there. I have been lower than there. I don't consider a professional, independent contractor that works cleaning houses to be menial. It's a hard fucking job that relies very heavily on word of mouth advertising- and the people I prefer to hire come from referrals only- and they can demand more.

I think we are mincing the details. We agree in principal, but do not see eye to eye on something that could be, at it's root, dependent on the market in which one lives.

(but my original point stands- the OP I replied to was lied to or was exaggerating)

[sandnsea]

176. Pretty much

Mincing words, yeah.

But, I asked some others and the rate for a 4 bedroom house in their area is $60-$100. Some people pay $10 hour in rural areas, that's $50 for 5 hours. You could do a large home in that time, if you kept it up on a regular basis. So it's possible people are undercutting to that extent, anything from supplementing welfare to undocumented to just desperate.

But like I said, I mostly object to the $50 hour claim because that's not the norm, and neither is $20 hour really, except in some very exclusive and expensive parts of the country. Most cleaning people really do make $10-$14 an hour.

The main thing is we agree nobody should be exploited for their work and that joining together is really the way for everybody to get the income they deserve. Which I would think wealthier people would support too, so there would be less need for food stamps, LIHEAP, Medicaid, etc.

[fleabert]

178. peace...and solidarity.

you working on May 1?

[sandnsea]

182. I'm self-employed

I work when me clients tells me to work!! :)

I don't know if a rally is planned here or not. I do know the owner of our local Mexican restaurant is considering closing down on some of these days, until this building fences stuff is permanently squashed. He's been here for years, has family in Mexico, I'm guessing he gets green cards when he brings people up to work. I know if they work out well, he starts them off in a little Mexican restaurant of their own. So I'll have to see if there's somebody to go be in solidarity with!!

(Our activist group likely does, I just haven't heard yet)

[countryjake]

106. Why doesn't your friend...

make it her business to inform the ones who took her houses exactly how they're ripping themselves off and selling all housekeepers short by working so cheap? How long ago was she cleaning for a living? The rates you say she charged were pretty damned insulting to any self-respecting housekeeper...was she working off the books?

[mondo joe]

71. There are sure people who do illegal things. -eom-

[expatriot]

109. exactly, why not call all people in violation of a law, "illegal"

If you speed, you're an "illegal" because you are speeding illegally.
All drug users are "illegals" since their drug use is against the law.
No, you're only called an "illegal" if you break _immigration_ law. How convenient.

[mondo joe]

133. How about doing it WHILE they're doing the illegal thing?

[fleabert]

92. a disabled profile. shocking. nt.

[marions ghost]

124. well here's a story

I have a Chinese friend who 'overstayed' his student visa and was technically illegal. He was seriously injured in doing an undocumented job. His medical treatment cost many thousands. Of course he had no insurance. The hospital he went to was owned by a state university. They let him pay off his bill at the incredibly low rate of $10 a month, but they still insisted that he had to pay it.

I'm wondering how this compares to other immigrants or whether every case is different.

[mondo joe]

68. Yikes - where the heck is THAT?

In Seattle we have a big network of community health centers with regular hours and great providers. Of course Seattle is relatively well off and that's reflected in its services.

[jeanarrett]

158. I'm sorry for your friend, but if I thought I had diabetes and

had some tests done for it, I certainly would not wait around for some clinic to call me and tell me what the results were. She should have been calling them daily to see if the tests came back and what the results were. It's called taking responsibility for your own health. Especially if the clinic is already overburdened.

[w8liftinglady]

22. I have worked at public facilities for a long time in Texas

ANYONE can get emergency care for free.Many people have been forced to use the emergency room as their walk-in clinic,drugstore because they have NO MOney.I disagree that illegals can get health care that citizens can't.they can get emergency treatment-including childbirth,like anyone else.

[marions ghost]

125. I am on the side of not denying health care

no matter what the immigration status --because they are part of the economy here--anything else wouldn't be right.

However you say they use the ER because they have no money. Right some are at pverty level. Some immigrants I know ARE making enough money to easily afford insurance, but they're not "documented" so they don't buy insurance. And the state picks up the tab. So in a sense the rest of us are paying for the healthcare of undocumented workers and subsidizing the businesses which employ them. And it would seem that this is a benefit NOT accorded Aamerican workers who are paying income taxes. So I would say there is a disparity. How big it is would take an extensive study I guess.

You may be in a good position to know how this works...I'm just interested in info, not trying to build a case against immigrants. I don't hold them personally responsible for policies of govt. There are better ways of helping them than what we do now, I suspect.

[NorthernSpy]

23. it's more a question of who has to pay...

In the US, no one can be turned away from emergency care. Which is how it should be, certainly.

The problem that has arisen in areas with large numbers of illegals is that hospitals get stuck with millions and millions of dollars in uncollectable bills after treating illegal aliens who used false names and addresses, and then disappeared without paying.

It's becoming a serious burden.


http://www.usatoday.com/printedition/news/20050518/a_arizona18.art.htm

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4503496

[Bozita]

29. ... and the folks who profited by the illegals being there ...

... are guilt-free?

WTF?

[TahitiNut]

31. I haven't seen anyone say that.

:shrug: It's ALL about cheap, non-voting, exploitable labor ... and making profits on it.
On both sides of the border.

[williesgirl]

34. No. Anyone hiring illegals should be arrested and fined much more than

they thought they were going to save by exploiting these folks.

[NorthernSpy]

36. ...pardon?

... and the folks who profited by the illegals being there ...

... are guilt-free?

Well, in my book the employers are guilty as sin, and we should start confiscating their assets to reimburse ourselves for the costs they impose upon us.

I hope you weren't implying that I might hold the employers blameless in all this, were you?

[Bozita]

41. Not at all. Employers of illegals are stealing from our fragile health ...

... care system. It's all indirect, but stealing no less.

[Bozita]

80. ...and I agree with unlimited confiscation of assets to recover reimbursem

Assets in primary residences would be limited to the median home value in that state.

Same for the car.

Let the bleeding begin.

[lumberjack_jeff]

48. Under current law, it's a catch-22 for employers.

If an applicant seeks a job and has the appropriate paperwork (social security number) it is illegal for an employer to reject the applicant solely because he suspects that the applicant may be illegal.

The government does nothing to alert the employer that their employees are using illegitimate SS numbers, because they like it this way. The employee is paying into a SS system that they'll probably not use, and taking jobs to keep labor plentiful.

[williesgirl]

49. The employer should verify the soc sec # against name etc.

Anyone can make up a 9 digit number. It's the employer's responsibility to verify it.

[Bozita]

75. Can't do it. It's so logical and a programming breeze. But, it can't be...

done.

A simple name checked with a 9 digit number. The user must key in both fields. Response is a simple yes or no.

Can't be done.

I saw a news report describing exactly this on Tuesday. Sorry, can't recall which.

Perhaps those benefitting from the current system wouldn't like to see anything done.

I wonder how many of America's nouveau riche are beneficiaries of illegal immigrant labor. My guess would be lots of folks in the construction industry.

[pitohui]

86. it is done all the time

hell, it is done in minutes in a casino if you play for any amount of money and they have even come back and told me, hey, you have a new zip code

the problem isn't illegals making up an ssn, the problem is that illegals are purchasing or being given other people's ssns

one day you are not going to be able to collect on your social security because the records will show that you live somewhere else and already collecting

how are you going to prove that you are you 30 years later when someone else has had it all that time and you never objected because you never knew?

the news report claiming that ssn's can't be matched to names, instantly, was lying to you

i have rockhard personal experience of this

[TahitiNut]

30. (Ding ding!) The first correct answer in the thread.

Anyone can get that care if they have no assets that can be found. Fake ID can be obtained by 'citizens' as well as 'non-citizens' - as long as they know how to get it. There are 'services' in an underground economy that aren't exactly franchised at our local strip malls.

So ... yes, 'illegals' do obtain health care that must be written off by the provider, i.e. borne by others who pay.

[EFerrari]

45. But more often, they go with cash in hand because

they cannot afford to get into any kind of trouble. Like, having bills come to their homes that they can't pay. Having the authorities tipped off by Joe Blow. And so on.

[RagingInMiami]

214. But why is not more of an outrage for the $5 billion a month

We all have to pay for the war in Iraq rather than what the hospitals have to write off, which is tiny fraction of that amount?

[EFerrari]

53. The problem with this scenario, NorthernSpy, is that one

cost is being pointed out in a vacum. In other words, what these people add to the economy is not being considered. If you think it all the way through, undocumented workers are often underpaid but they usually have to pay more for everything they consume. The poor pay more for most things, from groceries to bank accounts.

Emergency rooms all over the country are struggling because our healthcare system is insane, not only because immigrants use them, as those two articles imply.

My husband is on Medicaid. We struggle to even find a pharmacy that will accept that as payment. And he's got a whole career under his belt of paying into the system.

[TahitiNut]

63. The overwhelming majority of "what these people add to the economy" ...

... is in the value of their labor, maybe 75% of which is confiscated by cheap-labor exploiters. "These people" get perhaps 25% of the value of their labor. The average worker in the S&P500 receives compensation that's about 35-40% of the value of their labor. 'Undocumented workers' receive less. Of that, many 'undocumented workers' send money to family in their country of origin and/or save their money to buy land or vehicles in that country. When these factors are taken into account, the notion that they're benefiting "the economy" becomes a myth ... at least for the bottom 99% of "the economy."

Above and beyond this, 'undocumented workers' is unable, out of fear, to report illegal labor practices and is unable to vote and (usually) avoids joining a union. We have more and more workers in this country unable to vote - including felons.

As I've said before, no worker in this country should fear deportation for revealing extortion or unfair/illegal labor practices. A labor force unable to vote or report crimes is almost a slave labor force. When people wonder why labor unions are losing membership and why politicians are supporting labor less and less, this is certainly a part of the problem. Remember, we have up to an estimated 20 million 'undocumented workers' in this country ... mostly in the lowest (and getting LOWER) paying jobs. That's NOT trivial.

[Tsiyu]

208. I'm going to disagree with you somewhat

Yes, the low cost of their labor is certainly an economic "plus" attributed to illegals, but immigrants are a significant purchasing block in the US and this cannot be forgotten.

They must eat, sleep and drive like other humans. They will work and save for items they want just as other humans do. Many are used to hardship and will live in inconvenient housing arrangements to achieve goals.

If the illegal community is thriving, they must be eating, and they aren't having all of their food sent in from Mexico or Cambodia.

If they are living as most poor in the US they spend every dollar they make. Some may go to the home country, but the rest of those bucks are going to Lowe's and Verizon and Amoco and Big Electric Co. and the landlord and Walmart....

We're all feeding Big Business and getting very little in return but it's so much easier to see it when someone else is responsible for their own exploitation.

We can blame the Chinese, the Saudis, and every illegal for our woes. The truth is, our downfall will be the result of our own crass materialism and laziness and myopia.

My silly, humble opinion only :hi:

[Ilsa]

66. I think this has been a huge precipitating factor in people paying

attention to illegal immigration problems now. When healthcare was alot cheaper, the analysis reflected that II put more into the system than they took out. But how many people (II) does it take to cover the health care bill for a young woman who gave birth to a sick preemie kept in NICU for 10 weeks? I think people are feeling the strain of paying for it in the increased cost of their health insurance and property taxes and any other way their county funds "indigent" care, which might include illegal immigrants.

But not nearly enough emphasis is being placed on employers hiring the II.

[Warren Stupidity]

24. No of course not we let them die in the streets like dogs.

Would you step back and think for a moment?

First, if they have the money, they pay for their healthcare, if they don't have the money, then they cannot of course pay for their healthcare. We, as a civilized society do not deny emergency health services to people because they are too poor to pay for it.

Second, there is approximately $350,000,000,000 in the SS 'trust fund' that is known as the 'suspense account'. This is money paid in for which there are no legitimate accounts. It is generally assumed that the vast majority of this ever growing pile of trust fund 'money' originates from our friends, the illegals. The point being that they are paying taxes, including FICA, and getting nothing much from those taxes, other than emergency health care services, and perhaps public education for their children. The analysis of 'net gain'/'net loss' is difficult, but we can split the difference and just say it is a wash.

Thirdly, we need immigrants! Legal, illegal, or otherwise, the only way we are going to continue to float social security is to have a steady increase in the lower age end of the workforce, particularly during the now upon us boomer anomaly. Immigrants are a good thing! They keep our society vibrant and dynamic. The keep the melting pot melting. They make America what it is. Stop being so scared of people who are not just the same as you. Celebrate diversity. Resist the fear mongers. Learn spanish.

[TahitiNut]

35. The Earnings Suspense File (ESF) currently stands at about $520 billion.

That money is NOT available to pay current recipients of Social Security! (That, by the way, is the ONLY legitimate use of Social Security contributions!)

See http://journals.democraticunderground.com/TahitiNut/215

[Cleita]

27. I worked as a payroll bookkeeper for a Pizza chain in

Los Angeles. About half of our employees were hispanic. Whether they were legal or not I don't know but at that time there was no law about hiring undocumented workers as long as they had a social security number.

The employees could have Kaiser Permanente health coverage if they paid half and the full amount for any dependents. At that time it was less than $50 a month with $25 deducted from the paycheck. Many of the workers had their whole families on the health plan and a lot was deducted from their checks.

However, since other family members worked and some worked more than one job I guess they could manage to survive. So these workers, I'm sure used the health plan when they needed it.

I also worked for doctors in private practice and there were many uninsured who came in when they needed care and they paid cash. Many were hispanics, but they paid. I think the only place they don't pay is the county hospital who can't turn anyone away.

Today things might be different, but indigenous and homeless families also use the county hospital or the emergency room where it is allowed. Many hospitals can turn away anyone who can't pay.

When my husband died in the ER a little over a year ago, I had clerks following me around for my insurance information even though they had it in the computer already. So I don't think too many people get away without paying something.

[EFerrari]

50. I was assaulted and believed I had a concussion once.

I had my mom drive me to the nearest ER. When they saw that I only had Medicaid, they tried to get me to leave. I understood at some point that this was their practice. At the time, I had the presence of mind to call my mother and tell her to come back because I might need a witness.

She did come, and I was treated to a CAT scan and a six hour wait. I watched while the attending doc asked another doc how to read the scan. The guy he asked was a back specialist. (I knew this because my mother was their landlord.) It was a nightmare and I don't know why I even bothered to try to get care.

What we put people through in this country is inhumane. I bet stories like mine are more common than corn.

[beam me up scottie]

52. Wow. That sucks.

And you're not blaming immigrants for it?

You must be one of those liberals I've heard so much about.

:D

[EFerrari]

55. Oh, make fun of my head injury.

:)

I spent three years or so in the public healthcare system and lived to get the t shirt. :shrug:

I can only wonder how poor people manage to survive that way their whole lives or even, if they do. I swear, they'd turn Mary away fully dialated and pushing.

[Cleita]

57. I think they would.

Another story here. Do you remember the story of the homeless man who crawled into a Tenant hospital ER because he was dying? They turned him away and told him he had to go to a county hospital miles away. They found him dead in the snow on the hospital grounds next morning.

This incident actually caused our legislators to pass a law saying no one could be turned away from emergency however, they walked away without the contingent plan, which is to give the ER's someplace to bill for these indigent patients.

[EFerrari]

60. That's horrible. And I believe it. I wrote a whole book about

one year in the life of a family using the public mental health care system. It's just unbelievable what vulnerable people are put through.

[beam me up scottie]

59. I'm uninsured now.

But I believe that health care is a basic human right.

Trying to make illegal immigrants the fall guy for the horrible state of health care in this country is no different that when the repukes blamed everything on welfare moms.

I'm revolted by some of these posts.

[EFerrari]

62. Yep. I hope you are in a state where there is something like

health care. Here in CA, we're screwed -- even with some pretty wonderful professionals doing their best to hold the system together, we're screwed. It's no place to get sick.

[beam me up scottie]

64. I'm looking at a visit to the free clinic.

Hopefully, I should be able to get on my company's insurance before I have to resort to it.

And of course, IF they'll cover pre-existing conditions.

[EFerrari]

65. What pre-existing condition?

:shrug:

Good luck with that. There are good people working in public health, some of the best. But, it's hard to work in this crazy, craven bureaucracy.

[beam me up scottie]

69. That's exactly

the line of reasoning I'm using!

What pre-existing condition?


If they want to deny me coverage, they'll have to work at it.

[EFerrari]

73. Good. Because the game is stacked.

If you have a pre-existing condition (if you are alive) they can deny coverage.

Maybe they take really, really good care of the unborn and the dead?

:)

[Cleita]

54. I heard a similar story when I was up in Idaho.

One of my co-worker's husband was a Gulf WarI vet. She said that when he came home, he wasn't the same person who left. When he came back he was subject to catatonic episodes. The VA refused to admit anything was wrong with him.

One time she had to take him to the ER, the one we civilians go to, and the medics there actually read a medical book in front of her trying to figure out what was wrong with him. They never figured it out, threw him out with some tranquilizers and the last time I spoke to her she was still trying to get the VA to come up with a diagnosis.

We have a real crisis here with our health and medical system.

[EFerrari]

56. We really do. We have some of the best tech in the world

and we can't deliver it. And that causes problems up and down the food chain.

I hope we take back Congress soon because as Dr. Dean said, Americans pay for Universal Healthcare but they don't get it.

[pinto]

39. No.

[Imagevision]

40. Imagine what the Construction Industry would do if illagals had to book!

I would love to see what would go down if Illegal immigrants were forced to leave or their employers were fined $30,000 per illegal undocumented worker they are knowingly employing

[williesgirl]

47. The fat cat creeps who exploit workers would have to pay a fair wage

to everyone, pay them on the books and maybe live on a few hundred thousand less a year themselves.

[NoSheep]

44. The healthcare is free in THEIR country-not ours! So THAT AINT IT!

or it was the last time I was there.

[Beausoir]

77. Not unless it is an emergency. And even then, some "christian" hospitals

will turn them away.

Especially in Texas.

God help all those small children of undocumented workers who get sick.

This country is so perverse in it's thinking that it makes me sick.

[EFerrari]

78. In reality, poor people are turned away all the time from ERs.

The health system costs us all a bundle and it's broken.

[medeak]

81. In NV

they are eligible for scholarships to work in health care...not the same ..but they do get many benefits.

[EFerrari]

82. Do they? Do those benefits outweigh the sums they

put into the economy?

I seriously doubt it.

This whole issue does have to be resolved, for sure. But the idea that these people who break their backs in this country somehow walk away winners is simply ridiculous if you think about it.

[medeak]

97. my 90 yr old Dad rents housing to illegals for next to nothing

and took it upon himself to educate them all with flyers he wrote in spanish re Bush in 2000. They all planned on being republicans if they ever became legal. He's a liberal from way back.

last week he told them he was broke because of IRS payments...they ALL said "what is IRS tax?"

Was sort of a light bulb moment.

[EFerrari]

99. Was that next to nothing less than his mortgage payment?

We make money off of undocumented workers three ways to Sunday.

[medeak]

101. nice

he owns property free and clear. The greatest man I know. He calls the Salvation Army every week to see if there is a family that needs help.

Why would you say that to me?

This issue has become more of a flame bait than the dang rape thing.

[EFerrari]

103. Well, neither of us want that. And you're right.

This seems to be an emotional issue.

I'd say that to you because I have decades of experience where people claim they are just helping when in reality, they are harvesting the misery of these people.

If I misread, I apologize. And, this isn't the norm. The norm is for these people to be exploited and then blamed for their exploitation.

[medeak]

107. am trying to understand

the anger sfexpat

Like you was horrified by so many responses from great people I know...good people. It seemed to be a geographical thing. We're both located north of the real turmoil.

Hell..an Egyptian friend in S Cal told me how upset he was with the illegals...baffling to me. He who is called a "sand nigger"?

My own very liberal and good parents are upset...weren't until the marches. It's an issue am still trying to understand both sides of.

[EFerrari]

110. Peace. It's late and I'm not being a good DUer.

The thing is, I've known many undocumented people.

They have been an addition to the community.

And I guess, the comments I've read here have just creeped me out beyond belief.

DU talk about round ups and deportation and in general, dehumanizing these people I have learned to know and to appreciate.

Is that a liberal stance or a progressive view?

No. It's not.

[medeak]

111. me neither...

am not a good DUer as well...tormenting people in the lounge.

Always enjoy your posts. peace as well!

[EFerrari]

112. I'm sorry if I upset you. Truly. nt

[Bozita]

83. link to URL of scholarship applications for illegal aliens requested

I gotta see this.

[medeak]

85. my mom worked for university

and told me yesterday..

still don't know where I stand on this issue. The part that offends educators is that everytime they leave school and march...federal school funds based on attendance are drastically down.

edited to say was told as well they were elligible for millenium scholarship (to attend any NV university) but not certain of what transpired after this:

http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2003/Aug-15-Fri-2003/news/21949569.html

[medeak]

87. and yes... it looks like they are afforded health care

June 17, 2005

Nevada lawmakers move to protect immigrants
BY KATHLEEN HENNESSEY
ASSOCIATED PRESS

CARSON CITY, Nev. (AP) - Immigrants won a handful of protections from the 2005 Nevada Legislature, including measures that preserve their access to college scholarships, aim to improve their health and target human traffickers.

Advocates point to the battle over cutting back the cash-strapped Millennium Scholarship program as the most visible win for immigrants.

Republicans in the Senate had backed a plan that would have prohibited students without Social Security numbers from receiving the $10,000 college tuition awards. Late-night, hot-tempered negotiations blew up when Sen. Bob Beers, R-Las Vegas, asked Democrats if they wanted the money to go to "illegal aliens."

Although the issue - along with new grade point average requirements and semester credit limits - forced lawmakers into a special session, the compromise deal removed the Social Security provision and was approved unanimously in the Senate and by a large majority in the Assembly.

"These are children who've gone through the public school system and their parents are paying taxes," said Jan Gilbert of the Progressive Leadership Alliance of Nevada. "We believe they deserve (the scholarship) like other students."

A bill that tries to reduce harassment and discrimination in schools ranks high on American Civil Liberties Union lobbyist Laura Mijanovich's list of victories for immigrants. Mijanovich said immigrant children, particularly Muslim girls who wear headscarves, are often bullied, and school employees don't always deal with the complaints.

AB202 requires schools to have a uniform system of reporting harassment or bullying, and mandates staff training.

"They need to understand there's a lot of bias and stereotypes that need to be broken, and I believe this bill will help them deal with it in a more positive way," she said.

Attorney General Brian Sandoval introduced two bills aimed at protecting recent arrivals to the state, including SB456, which cracks down on human trafficking, slavery and forced labor.

Migrant workers in the construction and agricultural industries, and young men and women caught in the sex trade are the most common victims in Nevada, Chief Deputy Attorney General Gerald Gardner said.

The bill rewrites a Nevada law on involuntary servitude to include enslaving someone by confiscating their passport or threatening them with deportation.

"It gives us a far stronger tool to prosecute those trafficking in human slavery by allowing us to get them for physical and nonphysical threats," Gardner said. "It also helps us target the middle men, those who do the recruiting and harboring of trafficking victims."

Sandoval's other effort, which would have regulated businesses that advertise translation services but often dispense specious legal advice on naturalization, died in an Assembly committee.

AB490 ran into opposition from legal experts who argued the businesses were illegally practicing law and should be shut down, not regulated.

Assemblyman Mo Denis, D-Las Vegas was more successful with his proposal to bar notaries public from advertising with the Spanish translation "notario publico" - a common term for "lawyer" in some countries.

Lawmakers also created and funded an Office of Minority Health to coordinate programs to try to improve minorities' access to affordable health care.

Advocates were less successful in pushing a bill that would have required construction companies that have contracts with the state to recruit more minorities and women. Faced with industry opposition, the bill was rewritten as a resolution encouraging women and minorities to take advantage of opportunities in the field.

[Bozita]

88. I'd still like to see such a link, please.

[medeak]

89. see above post n/t

[pitohui]

84. i'll tell you how it works

it actually works the same for usa citizens IF they possess no ID

an alcoholic friend of mine made use of this, IF you have no ID, and you are taken to the emergency room and give bogus information, well, how the eff are they going to track you down to bill you?

my friend was homeless and they just aren't ever going to be able to figure out who she was right?

on the other hand, if they do find out who you are, if you are a usa citizen -- they take everything

ask george alec effinger, oh that's right, i guess you can't ask him, they pretty much harassed him to the day he died for treatment received at charity hospital in the 1970s

clearly if you are treated in an ER and you are an illegal, you do not have to pay, because you are giving someone else's ID or no one's ID, in the case of the illegal using another's stolen SSN, they have just created a hell on earth for the unsuspecting citizen

yes, people are angry that their futures are being destroyed by mexicans driving w.out insurance and totalling their cars and crippling them forever, when if we have even a tiny fender bender in mexico we are put in jail and never released until we pay the other person's expenses

fair is fair

and what is happening here is NOT fair

equal treatment for all

no special treatment because you can't speak english or pretend not to when the billing dept. comes around, hokay?

[shamrock]

90. You're right.

Also, stealing someones ID is a serious crime, and using fake ID is fraud. Oh well, I'm getting really tired of even voicing my opinion. It kind of makes me feel like I did at the beginning of the Iraq war and being called anti-american, Saddam lover, if I don't like it here I should leave, etc.by the Republicans. Now, it's if you don't support illegal immigration you're racist, a bigot, and probably a freeper, by the Dems. I think I'll become an Independant.

[EFerrari]

100. What a load of crap.

Have you ever known anyone that was here without papers? No.

I hope it somehow comforts you to hate on people you know shit about. And to repeat Republican talking points.

Welcome to my ignore list.

[rman]

114. I think most people realize

that Mexicans are hardly the biggest problem wrt people's future being destroyed.

[debbierlus]

117. Immigrants have little to do with the state of our health care system

We need to have a single payer system. A not-for-profit system that truly reduces costs, and gives access to everyone.

The problem with health care:

Corporations. They don't want to institute measures to reduce cost, because THEY are the excess cost. HMO's bottom line is PROFIT not people.

Massachusetts just created a disaster of a health care initiative (I live here). Their grand plan - require everyone to have insurance (from the private sector). Only problem is that they have not instituted any policies on HOW the insurance sector is suppossed to do this....Plan does not address the HMO profiteering, personal profiling. It requires no change to the current system, it just forces people to be a part of that broken system.

Romney will campaign on this issue, as if he is some health care savior.

HA!

[Tsiyu]

120. Oops! Somebody's gettin' somethin' I ain't got!

If it weren't for them, my life would be SOOOOOOOO good!

I think some wonderful posters in this thread have shown that illegals don't have some super secret free government health care plan. Many illegals pay into the system, or if they are poor and uninsured like me they rely on whatever kindness the system might provide.

But think about it. Would you really want sick, infectious people wandering around contagious simply because they didn't get to America the "right" way?

Maybe some people live in a dream world where Mexicans aren't as infectious as everybody else? It's a matter of public health that ALL persons get medical care to curtail the spread of influenza and other highly contagious, life-threatening diseases.

It's a matter of prudent financial management to decide that ALL expectant mothers - whether you like the color of their hair, or their accent, or not - receive adequate prenatal care. Someone above mentioned a preemie in an ICU. Prenatal care PREVENTS premature births and costs only a fraction of an NICU stay.

And it's a matter of human decency to want the best for all, and to stop looking to others for scapegoating purposes. The bitter, sour grapes approach is as ugly as the insatiable, destructive, gloating approach.

Imagine this......

You live in a dicey neighborhood. One evening, you happen upon this scene: Several teenagers are beating up a homeless man you know to be an illegal immigrant. Would you hesitate before calling 911 because the cops didn't respond the last time you were getting beat up by thugs?

Would it really take anything from you personally to get the guy some help?

[fujiyama]

126. I never understood

those complaining about illegal immigrants recieving healthcare. I understand how bad healthcare is in this country. The system is rotten to the core, but that's not caused by any immigrant - legal or illegal. It's as ridiculous to blame that as to blame "welfare queens" driving caddies for taxes. Both are nonsense and is used by RWers to create fear and division.

Practically speaking, do we WANT a sick society? Do we want contageous diseases easier spread? And no nation with any concept of justice would allow people to simply be refused for medical care. I find the concept appaling. No one that supports such measures can be considered a liberal. And we're not talking about cosmetic surgery and the best care here for God's sakes. I mean, is some person with the fear of being deported risk going to the doctor's office for something that isn't serious?

I suppose many in gated communities don't give a shit, because they're well, gated. But even they have to interact with lowly illegals once in a while. After all they are hired by them to do the work. But I suppose they are viewed more or less as disposable.

And for those of more modest means that oppose "free healthcare for illegals", what is the alternative? Let them die?

The real issue is who pays? And I think it's clear that for these sorts of things, the federal government should pick up the tab. After all, it's them unable to control the borders.

And, I'm also amused by this notion that if you don't oppose certain things like healthcare for all people in the US, you support illegal immigration. Sorry, but that doesn't fly. That's like saying criminal defense lawyers support criminality because they defend criminals. Like most I understand that illegal immigration is a problem, but I'd rather look at practical and compassionate ways of finding a solution.

[WernhamHogg]

127. Right wing myth

I grew up in the Detroit area (an area with one of the largest Arabic populations outside of the Middle East) and this reminds me of the myth about immigrants that I heard a lot when I was growing up.

"The Arabs come here, open a store and they don't have to pay any taxes for 7 years. Then, they can just pass the store off to another family member who also doesn't have to pay taxes for 7 years..."

A LOT of people who I know needed to be set straight on this one.

http://www.snopes.com/business/taxes/immigrants.asp

[countryjake]

128. Interesting paragraph from your link...

"This is a rumor of resentment. Those who have been here for a while look around their neighborhood and see what they perceive as too many of an identifiable group of new arrivals upsetting their apple cart. Rather than identifying their feelings as "We were here first, and we don't want you lot changing the world we've built," they channel resentment that cannot be expressed honestly into a rumor that focuses their bad feelings on the last group through the gate but also provides a justification for expressing those feelings. A proper conscience does not rest comfortably when its owner's anger is being directed at a group that doesn't deserve it. However, give that conscience a reason to believe that the other group has done something to merit displeasure, and the restraints are lifted. It becomes okay to resent, and even to hate."

[0007]

132. Everyone should be entitled to good medical treatment and health care

Depending where you live and the color of your skin is the problem.

[Horse with no Name]

137. Not any more so than anyone else

Anyone that needs help can walk into an Emergency of a not-for-profit, non-profit, county hospital etc and get treated regardless of their ability to pay.
You walk out the door with a promise to pay the bill, but guess what?
Very few that are uninsured rarely pay the bill. It goes to collections.
Then people will hound you, but that doesn't make people pay. So in essence, anyone that is willing to be hounded relentlessly has access to free care.
It's the follow-up care that is crucial. Which, just like most uninsured or underinsured Americans--people here illegally do not get NOR do they have access to it.
Anyone that has ever tried making an appointment with a specialist knows FOR A FACT that you aren't getting your foot in the door unless you have insurance or cash. The same holds true for anyone. There isn't a special door that "illegals" can use to access that care.
It is ALL a huge bunch of garbage.
What is killing many of these hospitals is the trauma services.
MOST of the trauma patients DO NOT have insurance. Their care is very expensive because many require emergent surgeries, expensive radiologic exams as well as bloodwork, intensive care, etc. This is largely due to many of the trauma vics being early 20's, male, indigent, etc. That puts them at a greater risk for traumatic events.
So you tell me how a "Messican" getting their cough or cold treated is more expensive than that?
It isn't. But it sure makes a nice strawman.

[Bridget Burke]

144. Offering free or very cheap care outside the Emergency room...

Would be more fiscally sound--not to mention more humane. There are plenty of legal immigrants & native-born who need this type of care, too. People wait until they or their children are very sick, then wait in the crowd at the ER. Treatment for simple conditions should be available in clinics.

Here in Texas, indigents can get free cancer care--once they prove they are indigent. But people who can't afford regular testing (Pap smears, mammograms, etc.) often have advanced disease before they ever see a doctor. Uninsured or poorly insured people with some money can lose it all with catastrophic disease--or the trauma you mentioned.

I have a decent plan at work & really no reason to bitch. But, since the days of Governor Bush, we have had fewer options & higher co-pays.

Those in the Healthcare Business (as opposed to most people doing patient care) plus their bought & paid for politicians love it when we blame the "illegals" for the sorry state of healthcare in the USA.

[Horse with no Name]

148. Agreed.

And the ONE great thing Texas has done is to start providing free mammograms and breast exams for women over 50 who meet income requirements.
This is done through the Texas Department of Health.
The racial breakdown in Texas for Medicaid:
Caucasian: 654,446
African American 471,404
Hispanic 1,285,920
American Indian 8,889
Asian 37,368
Not identified 43,777
Total 2,501,804
http://www.hhsc.state.tx.us/medicaid/reports/PB5/PDF/AppendixD.pdf
So you have Hispanics making up the largest segment of Medicaid in Texas.
HOWEVER, 1,215,884 non-Hispanics also use Medicaid.
What are the factors?
Could it be the lower paying jobs?
Could it be that many Hispanics are practicing Catholics and do not utilize birth control methods and simply have larger families?
OR could it be simply that Hispanics make up a large portion of the state?
How did Texas get so big? This is where the population in Texas comes from:
23% International Migration
19% Domestic Migration
58% Natural Increase
(guess that blows the argument that "they" are overrunning our state)
http://www.county.org/resources/countydata/products/TX_Demo/TX_Demographics_Jun2001.pdf
Texas has 20,851,820 residents according to the 2000 census.
2,501,804 are on Medicaid.
We see a 24% increase in population due to international immigration per year.
Our population is 54.6 white, 31.0 Hispanic, 11.4 Black, and 3.1 other.

I don't see a huge disparity when you consider the extrinsic factors.

[Julius Civitatus]

139. There is no such thing as FREE HEALTHCARE in the USA

That is a Republican myth.

[Le Taz Hot]

152. Yes

And anyone who tells you they can't, send them to me and I'll show them eyewitness accounts, hundreds of them, hell, thousands of them, for as long as they can stand it. I was without health care for about 6 months and had to pay cash for medication that I needed, literally, to keep alive. I had to wait in line at a pharmacy in a neighborhood saturated with illegals. I watched as person after person (none spoke English) handed the pharmacist their MediCal card. MediCal paid for everything. How nice for them.

Anyone who tells you anything different doesn't have a clue and doesn't care to.

[EFerrari]

153. Out of curiosity, how do you know those people were illegal

Saturated with undocumented?

Oh, the horror.

[Tsiyu]

159. You crack me up, Woman!

:rofl:

Maybe that poor inundated poster should do some research and see just how many Hispanic citizens are legal.

But they got something the poster didn't get; therefore they are suspect.

[Le Taz Hot]

185. Uh, this poor, inundated poster

has been on the INSIDE and knows exactly how it works. And I'm glad you're finding humor in our misfortune. Back at ya, sunshine.

[EFerrari]

187. Help me.

I mean it. Help me.

My gramma was a legal resident of these YOUnited States and a published poet and she never spoke a word of English.

Help me.

:shrug:

[Tsiyu]

209. My sweet friend, there may be no help for these people

There is their breed and then there is everybody else.

I am told I take after my Italian great grandma in stature. She was a legal resident who spoke Italian.

When visiting, my mom would just nod her head as if she understood, so Great Grandma loved her even though she was not Italian.

I guess we are lucky. We have dealings with people from all over the world. They do not scare me. If they succeed in America, I will be absolutely thrilled. I will not blame my failures on their blessings.

I know why I struggle. I don't lie to myself and I blame no one but myself. We are all part of the problem.

And here's a hug, because you care enough to keep on keepin' on.....:hug:

:yourock:


:hug:

[Le Taz Hot]

184. Oh, I don't know

perhaps that none of them spoke a word of English? If they were born here, how the hell do you do that and NOT speak English? Even if it's not spoken at home you learn it in school or work. If they were naturalized citizens, they have to be able to speak some English in order to get their citizenship.

Deductive analysis is your friend. Use it wisely and often.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

204. Did you know this newfangled thingie called "LEGAL Immigration?"

It allows people born elsewhere to exist within the borders of a country without either (a) being illegals, or (b) spontaneously bursting into flames! Way cool, dude!

[RagingInMiami]

216. Reality is a better friend

I live in a city where thousands of Latin American immigrants have legal residency and don't speak a word of English.

I don't necessarily agree with it. I believe a person should make an attempt to learn the language, especially if they've been here that many years, but either some people don't learn languages well in their later years or they just simply haven't felt the need to learn the language.

That's reality.

[proud2BlibKansan]

162. And you are sure those people who

as you so eloquently put it "saturated" your pharmacy were indeed undocumented?

What - did you check all their green cards while you were waiting?

[rene moon]

191. Hey there, racist much?

My Nana was born and raised in Tucson, AZ and she didn't speak English---at least not very well. She chose to speak Spanish in her everyday life, whether it was running errands, talking to friends and neighbors and in her later years, to the health care workers that look after her at the nursing home.

I have friends whose parents were born here in AZ and still don't speak English at all. Why? Because in AZ, you can get away with it---especially living so near the border. I hear Spanish everyday of my life and I don't think anything of it.

But don't worry, those nasty Spanish-speaking people tend to stay on the traditional minority sides of town, so the White people and the Latinos who forgot where they came from, don't have to be reminded of it.

Deductive analysis is your friend. Use it wisely and often.

[EFerrari]

196. rene moon, by treaty, Spanish is a co-equal language with

English in the territories that the United States "won" in the war.

Entiendes?

:)

[rene moon]

199. Of course!

Thanks :)

[Le Taz Hot]

205. Oh, and there is it

I was just waiting for one of you geniuses to use it. Disagree with illegal immigration? You MUST be racist. It's the same "logic" used by people who still support G.W. And, by the way, Einstein, I AM one of those Spanish-speaking people.

Gotcha! <flush>

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

201. See #200 -nt

[Ksec]

154. Yes they can.

I know this for a fact.

Its sickening we have elderly folks dying because they have to choose between eating and heart meds while someone who isnt a citizen gets free healthcare and prescriptions.

[proud2BlibKansan]

157. Read the thread

That claim has been debunked. Many times.

[Ksec]

173. Yes they can

and besides, how many illegals have gotten turned away at emergency rooms?
They can get healthcare. That was the question. And our own old folk die because of no money and illegals sucking up all the resources.

[fleabert]

180. okay...

prove it.

:popcorn:

[Tsiyu]

161. Instead, we should let the illegals who pick the elderly's strawberries

and clean their bathrooms go without helthcare and infect everybody else, especially immuno-comprised elderly folk!

That would keep more people alive!

[proud2BlibKansan]

163. How dare they get health care

I say we ship them all off to leper colonies!!

:sarcasm:

[Ksec]

172. But you dont stick up for the elderly

shame on you.

[proud2BlibKansan]

181. Oh give it a rest

Some of these anti immigration threads belong over at FR.

[Ksec]

171. No, we should not let illegals work here

That should solve yer problem.

[proud2BlibKansan]

183. Well good luck with that plan

:rofl:

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

202. See #200. -nt

[Minnesota Libra]

168. Take your choice of medical clinics across this country and I bet.........

....at least 8 out 10 will have at least some illegal aliens. You bet they get free medical care.

My grown son was sick with a bad cold this year and couldn't afford to go to the doctor because he can't afford medical insurance. Oh but illegal aliens get all the medical care they want any time they want it.

Don't anyone try telling me this isn't the truth either because I live/ed it up close and personal. So I'm going on personal experience only - not on what anyone has told me.

[EFerrari]

195. Right.

Have you EVER known an undocumented worker?

I think not.

Personal experience?

:rofl:

Welcome to my ignore list. :hi:

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

200. No, wait, let me guess -- they drove to the clinics in the Cadillacs...

...they bought from their welfare checks, right? Right after spitting on a Vietnam vet, right?

[Minnesota Libra]

210. Yes, I've PERSONALLY known illegal aliens, and yes I've..............

....personally seen and heard them at medical clinics - quite often in fact.

Tell me the difference between Democrats/Liberals on the illegal alien issue and neocons/fundies on the abortion issue. No difference at all.

As for the ignore list - who cares. I'm sure I'm on more than one ignore list because I don't walk lock step with the liberal message of simply declare everyone a citizen and then watch the next 12 million come up here.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

212. You should be thankful you are in so many ignore lists.

I don't ignore -- you can't alert on ignored posts.

As for your "personal experiences", and those of other posters in this threads -- they trigger the appearance of wavy lines over the head of a fellow who lives in NYC and has an aunt called May.

[RagingInMiami]

215. You "lived it up close and personal"

You've actually traveled the country and determined that 8 out of 10 medical clinics "have at least some illegal aliens?"

And the reason your son can't get healthcare is because of the illegal immigrants?

What else have you learned from Rush Limbaugh?

[LSK]

179. should the question be, how did illegals in ER create $8trillion in debt??

Whatever care they got is a drop in the bucket that I am not concerned about. Republicans ALWAYS like to overlook the real problems with FAKE problems.

[EFerrari]

197. I can't believe alleged progressives are falling for this.

But, I may be an idiot.

"If you can't believe that alleged progressives fall for Republican talking points, you may be an idiot."