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Morgan Stanley is hiring non-union carpenters in Miami

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Sarah Ibarruri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-18-07 09:04 PM
Original message
Morgan Stanley is hiring non-union carpenters in Miami
I work near a building in downtown Miami where the Carpenters' Union is protesting the fact that Morgan Stanley has hired non-union, cheap, substandard "carpenters." Being Miami, these people probably include illegal immigrants. If you'd like, please let Morgan Stanley know what you think:

(212) 761-4000

mediainquiries@morganstanley.com <mediainquiries@morganstanley.com>
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Adsos Letter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-18-07 09:32 PM
Response to Original message
1. ....well....
Edited on Sat Aug-18-07 09:57 PM by adsosletter
I agree that there is a good chance that illegal immigrants are working on those crews, and that many of them are probably not well trained. And, I agree that union carpenters receive "formal apprenticeships" and are better cared for than non-union carpenters.

Your OP suggests, however, that non-union=substandard. Some of the best-built and most expensive estates in Napa Valley have been built by primarily non-union workforces, including "carpenters". This area has very little union representation but that does not necessarily equate with lack of skills.

On the skill-level ONLY I would put many of the carpenters I know up against a union carpenter any day...


ON EDIT:...spelling... :dunce:
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Sarah Ibarruri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-19-07 09:37 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Even if there are excellent illegal immigrants on a working crew...
You're cutting your own throat to hire non-union. The only reason jobs in this country have any form of standards is because of unions. If, however, you're a very wealthy individual who benefits off hiring non-union because you can pay lower wages and provide zero benefits, then I can understand your defense of non-union work crews.
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Adsos Letter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-19-07 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Hey,...thanks for addressing an argument I did not make...
if you read my post again you will see that I never approved of illegal immigration, I acknowledged that union workers were better taken care of, and that my only argument was that, just beacause a carpenter is "non-union" doesn't mean he is substandard or not a highly skilled "carpenter".

Your attempt to characterize my motivations is unfounded and incorrect. As I emphasized in my post, I was ONLY speaking to skill levels and abilities and nothing else.
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Sarah Ibarruri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-19-07 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. I'm responding to your argument that there *CAN* be some good work from non-unionized workers.
There *MIGHT* be some good work from non-unionized workers now and then, but by hiring non-unionized workers, you are destroying the U.S.

So why risk it just to save a couple of bucks and stick them in your CEO's pocket for his next yacht? It's insane.
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Adsos Letter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-19-07 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. ...I am not arguing with you about the benefits of being in a union...
...I am not arguing with you about the predatory self-interest of your CEO...
...I am not arguing that you are trying to destroy America...
...I am saying that you demean untold numbers of highly skilled non-union workers by your simplistic equation:

non-union = substandard
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Sarah Ibarruri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-19-07 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Maybe it's because I live in Miami.....
In Miami we are inundated with non-union, illegal immigrants, unlicensed immigrants, and oftentimes people who don't know how to do a job but because they need the money so desperately, they'll fudge their way around a job. The construction in Miami is horrifically shoddy. I myself have known 2 "carpenters" who were never carpenters before they arrived here as immigrants and suddenly needed money. Miami is filled with undone jobs and half-done jobs, a result of fly-by-night individuals who promised to do a job. It's also a mecca for such types of lawsuits.
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Adsos Letter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-19-07 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. I am absolutely in agreement with you...
...based upon everything you presented.

Illegal immigration, combined with the decline of unions, has done a lot to destroy the working class in America. Here in Northern California we have definitely been impacted by both, and in many of the ways you describe.

My only disagreement was regarding the "non-union = substandard" thing; it is often the case, but it doesn't have to be. Like all things, it depends on the shop you work for. As a Painter (now retired) I have seen union shops which produced very poor work (although, technically, it did meet "standard of the industry") and the same is certainly true of non-union shops.

Substandard HAS become more prevalent in non-union companies; this has been exacerbated in the last 5-10 years by a combination of massive influxes of illegal immigration and shops who refuse to follow a disciplined training program. Profits trump all for most, but not all.

When I took my "apprenticeship" (I understand this is a technical term not truly accurate outside of the union environment) there were virtually no union Painting shops working in our area; however, the men who functioned as lead painters, foremen, and supervisors, followed a disciplined regimen of education in the craft, including subjects beyond application of material: safety, chemical knowledge, hazardous material training, etc were all addressed and compliance was supervised on-site. This was probably a function of the fact that, back in the early 1970's many of the older men had been union educated and spent years in that workforce; however, as union shops folded, these guys had to work somewhere so many of them entered the non-union shops. But they brought their craft knowledge with them and, in many shops, tried to instill those values in the apprentices.

And I managed to reap a blessing from those guys, rising to the top of my craft in a very competitive and expensive environment (custom single family dwellings, usually a second, third, or even fourth residence usually of 7,000+ sq. ft, and with some as high as 30,000+ sq. ft.) People in that class usually recognize what top-notch craftsmanship looks like, and they don't mind paying for it; they do, however, object to paying for less than excellent work.

In my years of advancement from apprentice to lead painter to foreman to supervisor to licensed painting contractor (I seldom worked under my own license but it was something I wanted so I could perform my own work legally, and with the customer protections which accompany it) I did my best to pass on the same learning style and knowledge of rights to the guys who worked under me.

Even this has ceased to be the case with the majority of non-union shops in our area; the desire of many contractors to put their own financial well-being above the education and security of their crews has been abetted by failure of government to crack down on businesses who hire illegal aliens (from wherever).

Retirement packages are non-existent beyond the upper management level (and even this has often been reduced to the form of ongoing profit-sharing). 10 years ago the company I retired from was 99% legal citizens and, yes, 99% white male (some females, but not usually, and most of them were paperhangers or decorative painters). This changed practically overnight (one construction season) when one local contractor shifted to all-illegal crews, and lowered his expenses (BUT NOT HIS RATES); in order to compete, everyone else followed suit.

And it was the worst of decisions, from my point of view. Most workers now don't receive any form of formalized training, there is practically no attempt to make them broadly competent craftsmen, and most don't speak english well enough to take nuanced direction anyway. You can tell 'em to "sand this woodwork" but it gets hairy when you try to nuance your instruction to include "sand this, but take care to avoid (fill in the blank) or until it begins to look like (fill in the blank). And this is what the info on the back of sandpaper means, and this is what it should be used for (fill in the blank)" etc,, etc.

The best thing that can happen is for the unions to make strong gains in the trades, but until we deal with an illegal workforce we are going to have problems ("So, you guys wanna' unionize...fine...don't bother showing up tomorrow...go ahead, complain to the powers that be...there are lots more where you come from...").

Sarah, I think we are in agreement on practically every issue you raised...with the one exception that non-union = sub-standard.
It doesn't have to but, given the tenor of the workforce today, I think we are going to HAVE to have a return to all union shops, in the trades, at least.

Peace to you... :hi:
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Sarah Ibarruri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-20-07 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Absolutely! I think unions are the way to go.
Edited on Mon Aug-20-07 07:11 PM by Sarah Ibarruri
I'm a teacher by profession and thank God for unions there! (Tho I'm no longer working as a teacher or even in a unionized sphere). I'm sure Raygun is turning over in his grave hearing me say this.
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