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"Ich bin ein Berliner" means just what Kennedy meant - "I am a Berliner"

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MinM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-24-08 07:59 AM
Original message
"Ich bin ein Berliner" means just what Kennedy meant - "I am a Berliner"
 
Run time: 04:41
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hH6nQhss4Yc
 
Posted on YouTube: November 05, 2006
By YouTube Member:
Views on YouTube: 0
 
Posted on DU: July 24, 2008
By DU Member: MinM
Views on DU: 16178
 
This was posted as a response in this thread:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3665294

Kennedy didn't say he was a donut! "Ich bin ein Berliner" means just what Kennedy meant - "I am a Berliner"
I love how these CIA-spread myths end up as the gospel truth, when they are nothing of the sort. Even Keith Olbermann fell for this one.

No, Kennedy did not say he was a donut.

He said, "Ich bin ein Berliner." And if you look up Berliner in a German dictionary, you will find that while donut is one meaning, the other meaning, the one Kennedy was obviously saying, is this:

"to be born in Berlin; to be a native Berliner; to be Berlin-born"


I am never surprised to hear the ignorant say Kennedy said this "wrong," when he didn't. But my heart sank when good ol' Keith Olbermann fell for the disinformation. Wow. I guess if a few people say it, it's suddenly true, eh?

Will all of you reading this please help spread the TRUTH about what Kennedy said? No doubt this will come up in the next few days as Obama prepares his own version of such a speech...
http://realhistoryarchives.blogspot.com/2008/07/kennedy-didnt-say-he-was-donut-eich-bin.html


JFK went on to Ireland:

NPR: Here and Now: A Kennedy's Journey Home
Story aired: Friday, December 29, 2006

The Kennedy Library launched this year a new exhibit commemorating President John F. Kennedy's journey home to Ireland in 1963.

After President Kennedy's historic speech at the Berlin Wall on June 26, 1963, he made a trip to Dublin, the land his great grandparents fled during the potato famine in the 19th century.

The exhibit, "A Journey Home," highlights this personal time for the president. And now, newly de-classified documents reveal that Kennedy was the object of death threats during that trip to Ireland.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=385&topic_id=148855&mesg_id=151013

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TechBear_Seattle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-24-08 08:08 AM
Response to Original message
1. Grammatically, it was wrong. It is not ignorant to point this out
The distinction is made with article ein: it is not used when referring to a resident of a city. It is a minor grammatical flub, and one that the audience was almost certainly used to hearing foreigners make; that is why they cheered rather than laughed. While the context made his meaning plain, it is incorrect to say that Kennedy did not make a mistake.

Had * said the exact same thing, in exactly the same context, you can bet Deuchmarks to Berliners that we would be calling him Doughnut-boy in addition to Chimpy and Shrub.
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stray cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-24-08 08:10 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. You are right the people understood what he meant but it doens mean it was gramatically correct
Edited on Thu Jul-24-08 08:11 AM by dmordue
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Rydz777 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-24-08 08:16 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. Ich bin...
Good point. "Ich bin Frankfurter" and "Ich bin Hamburger" or "Ich bin Wiener" are available for the Bushites.
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TechBear_Seattle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-24-08 08:25 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. Except that...
Edited on Thu Jul-24-08 08:25 AM by TechBear_Seattle
Members of the Junta would add the ein deliberately, thinking (sic) that if it was good enough for Kennedy....

German speaking resident of Wien: "Ich bin Wiener."
President *: "Ich bin ein Weiner."

Big difference. :toast:
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Benhurst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-24-08 08:22 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. And if Bush had said it, the crowd would have roared with laughter,
given the hatred which is felt for him.
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TechBear_Seattle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-24-08 08:33 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. Totally unwarranted assumption
... that there would have been enough people in attendance to make up a crowd. At least, enough people listening politely enough to have caught the error.
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-24-08 08:37 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. No, the hatred would have been because his Grandfather was a Nazi-lover.
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MinM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-24-08 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #1
13. 6-years later..Neil Armstrong committed a similar faux pas.
"That's one small step for man; one giant leap for mankind."

Although, as you mentioned with the JFK speech, the meaning was clear.
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wurstie Donating Member (15 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-24-08 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #1
19. As a native German speaker, I have to disagree with you.
In fact, the use of the indefinite article is exactly the right thing to do in the context of his speech. "Ich bin Berliner" would just carry the meaning of "I'm .", while "Ich bin ein Berliner." transforms the meaning slightly to "I'm one of you Berliners.". Whether that was intended or not, it makes the statement much more powerful, in fact, just saying "Ich bin Berliner." would've been a bit awkward.
The difference in meaning is subtle, but it was perfect the way it was. The "doughnut" accusation is simply silly, especially because that type of "doughnut" is only known as "Berliner" or "Berliner Pfannkuchen" OUTSIDE of Berlin, where he was speaking.
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skooooo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-24-08 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Grammar mistake...
Edited on Thu Jul-24-08 02:55 PM by skooooo
Maybe it works in modern day slang, but grammatically it's wrong. Look it up in Duden.

I've also had native Germans confirm it was an error, so get over yourself.
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wurstie Donating Member (15 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-08 04:33 AM
Response to Reply #20
25. Not modern German slang...
Maybe it works in modern day slang, but grammatically it's wrong. Look it up in Duden.

I did and I also did some other research on it. Yes, the article is omitted if you want to declare yourself a member of a class ("Berliner", "Politiker", "Amerikaner") but that wasn't Kennedy's intention. He wasn't a native Berlin citizen, so claiming that makes no sense. His intention was to declare that he shares the properties of a "typical" Berlin citizen and the way you do that by adding the indefinite article ("I'm a member of ." vs. "I share the properties of a .").

http://www.iaas.uni-bremen.de/sprachblog/2008/06/25/ich-bin-kein-pfannkuchen/
(not my work, just as a reference)

I've also had native Germans confirm it was an error, so get over yourself.

There is no reason to get rude. As a native German myself, I'm just suggesting that they might have been mistaken.
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blueoak Donating Member (7 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-24-08 08:53 AM
Response to Original message
8.  I Am a Sweet Roll
A berliner to germans is a sweet birchin, or roll.It has always made me laugh. Who told Kennedy to say this?
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TechBear_Seattle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-24-08 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. I'm told it is a common mistake for non-native speakers
Many European languages use an indefinite article when referring to someone who is a resident or citizen of somewhere:

I am an American.
Elle est une Parisienne.

German is an exception

Ich bin Berliner.

This has made it easier to create nouns based on the structure of "coming from" for various items, with the article distinguishing the item from the resident.

Ich bin Weiner. I am from Vienna
Ich bin ein Weiner. I am a Vienna sausage.

Ich bin Hamburger. I am a resident of Hamburg.
Ich bin ein Hamburger. I am a chopped steak served on a bun.

Ich bin Berliner. I come from Berlin.
Ich bin ein Berliner. I am a pastry.

Many foreign speakers will include the article because they are used to including the article.
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skooooo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-24-08 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. I don't know why this is debated continually on DU...

The OP is incorrect.
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-24-08 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. Because some people cannot accept that some people they like make mistakes and that a small mistake
is not a big deal.
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skooooo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-24-08 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. When Olbermann brought this up for discussion....

...I posted on it. Mind you, I have taught German and I know if I would have taught that "either way" - with or without the "ein" the meaning is the same, my supervisors would have jerked me aside and corrected me.

On my thread a "native speaker" got on and said it was quite understandable what Kennedy was saying. Yes, it's understandable. We understand when foreigners make grammar mistakes as long as it doesn't completely mangle the meaning of what they are trying to say.

Another poster got on and tried to explain to me that it was the same thing in English as saying either: I am an American or I am American. Of course it's not the same. One is a noun, the other is an adjective.

Makes me lose hope that people will chime in with their own ignorance, or purported knowledge and muddy the waters on something so simple. No wonder we can't get anywhere in discussions that are more complicated than Kennedy's most famous 4-word quote.
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TechBear_Seattle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-24-08 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #11
15. Correct
It was a small mistake, a very common one for foreigners to make, and the context made it very clear what he meant.

Kennedy's speech was inspirational. The gaffe adds a touch of humor and shows him as a human being rather than the deity latter mythology would portray. The problem is, devotees dislike when their gods are revealed to be just folk.
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MinM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-24-08 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. T.J. English, last night on The Daily Show, disabused most people...
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begin_within Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-24-08 10:58 AM
Response to Original message
14. Not that there's anything wrong with it
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TechBear_Seattle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-24-08 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. Mmmmm... drei Berliners. Aaaaghghghghghghghghghg....
Edited on Thu Jul-24-08 11:07 AM by TechBear_Seattle
(Wipes drool from his chin)
Indeed, there is nothing wrong with that, except it being just a picture.

Which makes me wonder....

Berliner - person from Berlin
ein Berliner - a pastry

How do you tell the difference if there are three of each?
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begin_within Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-24-08 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. mhh hmm
what?
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dailykoff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-24-08 03:06 PM
Response to Original message
21. Is that Ted Sorenson sitting behind him?
He looks a little nervous when JFK rolls out his famous phrase, but then JFK makes that little joke thanking the translator for translating his German, so even if he got it slightly wrong (I think the issue is the indefinite pronoun), it hardly mattered, and in any case the audience loved it.

Thanks, I'd never actually seen this! :thumbsup:
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MrObama Donating Member (576 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-24-08 06:14 PM
Response to Original message
22. Kennedy's statement is both grammatically correct and perfectly idiomatic !!!!
According to an urban legend, Kennedy allegedly made an embarrassing grammatical error by saying "Ich bin ein Berliner," referring to himself not as a citizen of Berlin, but as a common pastry<3>:

Kennedy should have said "Ich bin Berliner" to mean "I am a person from Berlin." By adding the indefinite article ein, his statement implied he was a non-human Berliner, thus "I am a jelly doughnut".

The legend seems to stem from a play on words with Berliner, the name of a doughnut variant filled with jam or plum sauce that is thought to have originated in Berlin.

In fact, Kennedy's statement is both grammatically correct<4> and perfectly idiomatic, and cannot be misunderstood in context. The urban legend is not widely known within Germany, where Kennedy's speech is considered a landmark in the country's postwar history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ich_bin_ein_Berliner

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MrObama Donating Member (576 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-24-08 06:20 PM
Response to Original message
23. URBAN LEGEND ! [ Kennedy's statement is grammatically correct !! ]
In fact, Kennedy's statement is both grammatically correct<4> and perfectly idiomatic, and cannot be misunderstood in context. The urban legend is not widely known within Germany!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ich_bin_ein_Berliner


-----------------------------------

According to an urban legend, Kennedy allegedly made an embarrassing grammatical error by saying "Ich bin ein Berliner," referring to himself not as a citizen of Berlin, but as a common pastry<3>:

Kennedy should have said "Ich bin Berliner" to mean "I am a person from Berlin." By adding the indefinite article ein, his statement implied he was a non-human Berliner, thus "I am a jelly doughnut".

The legend seems to stem from a play on words with Berliner, the name of a doughnut variant filled with jam or plum sauce that is thought to have originated in Berlin.

In fact, Kennedy's statement is both grammatically correct<4> and perfectly idiomatic, and cannot be misunderstood in context. The urban legend is not widely known within Germany, where Kennedy's speech is considered a landmark in the country's postwar history.<5> The indefinite article ein can be and often is omitted when speaking of an individual's profession or residence but is necessary when speaking in a figurative sense as Kennedy did. Since the president was not literally from Berlin but only declaring his solidarity with its citizens, "Ich bin Berliner" would not have been correct.<6>

The origins of the legend are obscure. The Len Deighton spy novel Berlin Game, published in 1983, contains the following passage, spoken by narrator Bernard Samson:

'Ich bin ein Berliner,' I said. It was a joke. A Berliner is a doughnut. The day after President Kennedy made his famous proclamation, Berlin cartoonists had a field day with talking doughnuts.<7>

The New York Times review of Deighton's novel added the detail that Kennedy's audience found his remark funny:

Here is where President Kennedy announced, Ich bin ein Berliner, and thereby amused the city's populace because in the local parlance a Berliner is a doughnut.<8>

In 1988 William J. Miller wrote in an April 30 New York Times article:

It's worth recalling, again, President John F. Kennedy's use of a German phrase while standing before the Berlin Wall. It would be great, his wordsmiths thought, for him to declare himself a symbolic citizen of Berlin. Hence, Ich bin ein Berliner. What they did not know, but could easily have found out, was that such citizens never refer to themselves as "Berliners." They reserve that term for a favorite confection often munched at breakfast. So, while they understood and appreciated the sentiments behind the President's impassioned declaration, the residents tittered among themselves when he exclaimed, literally, "I am a jelly-filled doughnut."<9>

In fact, the opposite is true: The citizens of Berlin do refer to themselves as Berliner; what they do not refer to as Berliner are jelly doughnuts. While these are known as "Berliner" in other areas of Germany, they are simply called Pfannkuchen (pancakes) in and around Berlin.<10> Thus the merely theoretical ambiguity went unnoticed by Kennedy's audience, as it did in Germany at large. In sum, "Ich bin ein Berliner" was the appropriate way to express in German what Kennedy meant to say.<11>

Although it is false, the legend has since been repeated by reputable media, such as the BBC (by Alistair Cooke in his Letter from America program),<12> The Guardian,<13> MSNBC,<14> CNN,<15> Time magazine,<16> The New York Times<17>, and in several books about Germany written by English-speaking authors, including Norman Davies.<18>.

As for the creation of the speech, it had been reviewed by journalist Robert Lochner, who was educated in Germany, and had been practiced several times in front of numerous Germans, including Berlin Mayor Willy Brandt. The many video and audio recordings of the event show only enthusiastic applause following the statement; the only laughter occurred later, when Kennedy jokingly thanked his translator for his translation of Kennedy's German sentence into German.

During the speech Kennedy used the phrase twice, ending his speech on it. However, Kennedy did pronounce the sentence with his Boston accent, reading from his note "ish bin ein Bearleener," which he had written out in English phonetics.

According to another urban legend, then U. S. president Bill Clinton has referred to the phrase Ich bin ein Berliner and its urban legend when he had visited a pub in Cologne, Germany. When Clinton visited that city on 17 June 1999, he privately and without prior announcement went to a local pub, where he spent one and a half hours, having a typical local meal and chatting to the surprised visitors. Enjoying half a glass of the local beer, called Kölsch, he allegedly said: "Ich bin ein Kölsch". Unfortunately, in local dialect, the word Kölsch stands only for the beer.
-----------------------------------
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begin_within Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-08 01:20 AM
Response to Original message
24. At least he didn't give the speech in Hamburg
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