Rachel Maddow discusses Afghanistan w/ Dexter Filkins - Jeebus, can we just get out of there now?

[ProfessorPlum]

Run time: 07:45 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfrK351kR1A   Posted on YouTube: March 20, 2009 By YouTube Member: Views on YouTube: 0   Posted on DU: March 20, 2009 By DU Member: ProfessorPlum Views on DU: 741

 
the picture's not good, people. This interview made my heart sink.

[Diclotican]

1. ProfessorPlum

ProfessorPlum

It is Expensive to be an empire.. On the other side of the world.. Even UK, who at one time was master of 1/5 of the planet was vice enough, after been beated badly by the afghans to get out of the area, and keep the distance to Afghanistan.. They was instead intersteded in India, who at the time was a far better place to be ruled by UK, and the allied and friends they managed to get there....

Nato and US can do just "so" for Afghanistan when it came to safeguard somewhat democratic institutions in Afghanistan. The real test is what the Afghanistan them selfs want for their future.. Not what WE can do on the outside so to speak.. Afghanistan have not have a central power for more than 30 year, and they have learned the hard way to not trust outsiders.. Specially them who came from the outside and was telling them how to govern.. The Afghan people have, on their own term made the future possible. We had the chance in 2001 and forward to give afghans a sense of hope, if the US have not going to Iraq, to a "better" place to wage a war.. The war in Afghanistan was not the plan for the former Administration of mr Bush. And today most afghans seen to not trust either of the parties, that be NATO or US.. If NATO had used more time and money to rebuild and sending the tool of building to afghans, then they might have had a better chance of trust us in the western world.. I for one, would use some of the same tactic that the US was using in the Western Europe after the war.. The Marshall plan, who was genius because it made most western european eternal thankfully for what they was getting from US. And for at least a generation made most europeans found, or in love with everything made in the US.. From Cars to Aircrafts. If it was from the US, then it was good.. Even if the products sometimes was little under par.. The Magic of everything from the US was everywhere to se.. My father once owned a Buick from 1949, (this was in the late 1960s, and it was not that easy to get a car in Norway - because it was expensive for the most part.. And to his death day, he was telling stories of how good that Buick was, and that he admired the whole car from bumper to bumper)..

It is maybe not the best way just to put car on the road in Afghanistan, I would guess it is more important to rebuild a country who for the most of the 20 century have just known war.. Even when Afghanistan was "steady" and had a king, and a stable government, it was not easy in some parts of the country.. Today it is more difficult than ever. Much thank to the fact that a extreme group, named Taliban is doing their best to retake the country, who they ruled between 1996 and 2001, when the US more or less tried to flatten the whole country from 10.000ft hight.. I would guess the USAF managed to flatten a whole much of mud huts and a lot of taliban warriors.. But still you do not managed to take out either the highest cohorts of Taliban, or for the sake of it mr Bin Laden itself.. They was secure in Pakistan where they have been regrouped and rebuild their infrastructure for the last 8 year or so.. And now even parts of Pakistan are not in the control of the government anymore.. Rather the opposite they are under control of the taliban...

I do not what to do, to safeguard that NATO and US can get out of Afghanistan without loosing a lot of credibility.. To be honest I fear that NATO and US can go the same way as everyone else, without the exception of Alexander the great. To loose it, and have to leave the country by any means necessary.. The only way out is either by Russia (who might have something to say when they have a couple of ten of thousands of NATO and US soldiers on their soil..) or by the Khyber Pass. Who have been a dangerous parts of Afghanistan/Pakistan border for more than 150 year now.. Even the british Raj had just a nominal control over the Khyber Pass.. And if 10.000 soldiers was to pass there I would guess that the Tribal elders do had something to say about it, not to menchen the Taliban who would see this as an golden possibility to hit the infidels.. I for one would be very afraid if 10.000 soldiers have to travel by that area of the world. Not since the same greek emperor/king was traveling to India have 10.000 soldiers been marching true that area I belive...

Diclotican

[ProfessorPlum]

2. Afghanistan have not have a central power for more than 30 year

Hi there - make that 3000 and you'd be very close to the mark. I like to think of Afghanistan as the staging ground for "The Grand Game" or whatever it was called between Britain and Russia all those years ago. Trying to impose order on Afghanistan - especially from without instead of from within - is a fool's game, and from this interview, I'm convinced we are the fools.

[Diclotican]

3. ProfessorPlum

ProfessorPlum

You might are true, to a less extend.. The area who today is Afghanistan have had a central power, but have also been de centralized by the whole nature of the country. Many empires have taken Afghanistan into their power, and as such Afghanistan have had a central power. Even that the direct power in Afghanistan was less than in other parts of Empires.. Afghanistan have in many cases been ruled by indirect ruling. The chieftains, the small kings and some bigger ones have had the real control over the country, with an nominal leader in one of the biggest city.. Like Khandahar and Kabul.. And for most of the history it have worked well, because each chieftain, and each "king" have had the same interest at heart. To safeguard "status que" and not rock the boat to much. And one of the few outsiders who managed to get a control over Afghanistan - or a least some areas of it was Alexander the great, because then the same place who are Afghanistan today was part of the Persian Empire - who Alexander have more or less beaten already then, but in the push for India - and to the end of the world, the Macedonians have to travel true Afghanistan. And even he had some great problems with controlling the whole area... Even then, the afghans was fighting back with everything they had, even that the Macedonian army was twice their own size, and far better armed....

If we rewind to our "own time" both Imperial Russia and Great Britain was locket into "the grand game" where they wanted to have control over the central europeans areas.. Afghanistan was in many cases indeed the battle ground and both Russia and Great Britain was paying a hefty price for the control over Afghanistan.. And no one of them really got to have the control either.. Even that indirectly GB maybe got the "upper hand" in the end, because many of the leaders was educated in GB in the end.. As in India where the "upper class" for the most part was educated in England, by the best schools available.. And for the most part, even today when India have been a sovereign nation for more than 60 year, thousands of indians are still traveling to UK to get their education.. Not in the same case as before the "Jewel in the empire" was an sovereign nation, but still... Today India, and Pakistan have their own higher education - who in both cases is schooled the same way as the "public school's" in UK Funny they call it "public school" when the fact is that you must have deep pockets to get into this type of schools..

I believe it to be more or less impossible to impose order in Afghanistan by the outside.. If you then are not prepared to use methods that would put you into the International Criminal Court in Haag.. The only people who can impose order and peace in Afghanistan, are the Afghans.. Even that we on the outside can help them out, with some of the tools, the afghans them self have to make it possible.. If we had used building bricks are our weapons of choice, then maybe more of the Afghans would have been more happy about the presence of NATO and US troops in the region? Even Russia, who was leaving with a bloody nose in 1988 are thinking about helping out NATO and US - and maybe got a little revenge for last time too.. But I doubt they have the equipment necessary to make it possible.. The once All mighty Red Army have really lost it the last 18 year..

I for one would hope at least NATO got into what was our goal under the cold war - to have an alliance who can protect our continent against enemies.. Not that I believe Russia to be our enemy any more - not in the traditional way of "enemy" anyway. In the 1990s the Russians was thinking aloud about the possibility that THEY would also be member of the alliance one day.. And that chocked the NATO generals to their core.. Just thinking about the possibility that Russia would be an member of NATO was scaring them to sleepless nights in many cases...

I hope NATO can go to their "Old" habit after the AFGHAN thing is over... And I hope the Afghan war is over soon.. I for one hope that every foreign soldier who are in Afghanistan, would leave the country, and that afghans them self would make this war torn country a better place.. We on the outside can help them out that is true. But it is AFGHANISTAN and their people who must make it possible.. We can build who many schools for girls and boys.. And the afghans can blow them out after a week.. We can build how many hospitals and clinics.. And again afghans can blow them up after a week (well more to the point, it is not the afghans who blow them up, but rather "holly warriors" from Yemen, Pakistan, Saudi-Arabia and other "friendly" nations of the US) Most afghans want a bette future than their past. But as long as "others" are there to play "the grand game" that be UK, Russia, United States Saudi Arabia and so on, Afghanistan would be a war torn country, with a population hostage to their own misfortune... Afghanistan have the misfortune to be in the center of a "great game" where oil and other oil products is more important than peace and prosperity.. If you take a look at the map, you would se that north of Afghanistan many of the most important oil production are - but you would also se that most pipe lines go true Russia. For some country, who I would not name this time, it is important to build pipe lines who goes true other nations, and not true Russia..

It is still "the grand game" just with other persons involved...

Diclotican