Bgno64
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Fri Feb-26-10 12:41 PM
Original message |
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Gil Smart asserts that anyone who flies an airplane into a building to make a political point is a terrorist, no matter what color he is.
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sui generis
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Fri Feb-26-10 12:44 PM
Response to Original message |
1. well gil smart just ain't very. |
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why is this even a discussion? Are there a bunch of idiots running around who don't understand the definition of terrorism?
I'm guessing that if we have to redefine something because we don't like the current definition, we're pounding a square peg into a non-hole.
Language doesn't work like that.
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Renew Deal
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Fri Feb-26-10 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #1 |
2. There are a bunch of idiots running around who don't understand the definition of terrorism. |
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And that plane crash was terrorism.
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sui generis
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Fri Feb-26-10 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #2 |
4. well this idiot will just have to school you |
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Edited on Fri Feb-26-10 01:13 PM by sui generis
1. The pilot was not part of an organized group that advocated violence against citizens as a means of controlling the government. 2. He acted alone. 3. It was a glorified murder-suicide by a nutjob, as all murder-suicides are.
Every time some fear-bunny mall-rat decides that they don't like something they call it terrorism and assume the crash position. Really all the redefinition in the world does not change the definition of terrorism.
And Gil Smart is an idiot for even trying. There really is a definition of terrorism used in political science that has NOTHING to do with talking-heads, concern trolls and opinionated fear addicts.
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ellenfl
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Fri Feb-26-10 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #4 |
6. gee, your definition sounds llike 9/11 AND mcveigh to me. |
sui generis
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Fri Feb-26-10 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #6 |
7. Did mcveigh act alone? |
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Edited on Fri Feb-26-10 01:22 PM by sui generis
No he didn't. Here's your report card.
I gave you the answer and you still failed the test.
Now answer my question. What is your definition of terrorism? Somebody at the mall flip you off, that's terrorism too? Somebody burns a bag of poo on your porch and you're terrified therefore it equals terrorism?
Gee yourself.
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ellenfl
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Fri Feb-26-10 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #7 |
8. acting alone is merely YOUR definition. |
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i consider eric rudolph a terrorist. the crotch bomber acted alone. is he not a terrorist?
if stack flew into the irs offices merely to kill himself, then he's not a terrorist. he was making a political point. imo, he was a terrorist. acting in concert with others does not, in and of itself, make an act one of terror. neither does acting alone preclude an act from being terrorism.
ellen fl
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sui generis
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Fri Feb-26-10 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #8 |
9. no the crotch bomber worked with a group |
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Edited on Fri Feb-26-10 02:12 PM by sui generis
making a political point with social violence is the definition of terrorism? You've been on DU too long :P
It's not MY definition. It's the US government's definition.
Anyway, what exactly is the point of re-characterizing a murder suicide as terrorism? what does it achieve? There are very real terrorists out there Ellen, and some whackadoodle who's pissed off that the IRS (or whatever feeble excuse) doesn't qualify as a DHL issue, and shouldn't.
If he had help, or coercion or belonged to a group that encouraged violence or even conducted violence against civilians with the intention of disrupting government by manipulating the public with fear, then it's closer to terrorism.
Blowing up the IRS when you have IRS problems and you're already feeling suicidal is not the same thing as McVeigh's highly organized and planned attack, even though both buildings housed federal employees, and both men were batshit.
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willhe
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Fri Feb-26-10 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #9 |
25. so its us gov definition.... nice |
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you missed what he said. he said it's your definition that it has to be a group.
so did the bushies push torture or not
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sui generis
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Fri Feb-26-10 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #25 |
27. now you've jumped topics |
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He said nothing factual. It's not MY definition, go do some light reading and stop the opining. And disrupting.
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ellenfl
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Fri Feb-26-10 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #9 |
30. here are some individual terrorists as defined by the gummint. |
sui generis
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Fri Feb-26-10 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #30 |
32. really? Osama bin Laden? |
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Anyway, in case I haven't made myself clear, if we're defining crazy suicidal people as terrorists, or ANYONE defined as a terrorist by stretching the definition as the Bush administration did, and some of us seem to want to, it still doesn't change what terrorism IS. Stretching terrorism to include common criminals is a profoundly bad idea.
Seriously, anyone who gets your heart rate up is a terrorist if we take it to its logical conclusion.
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ellenfl
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Fri Feb-26-10 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #9 |
31. i guess we'll just have to agree to have different definitions of |
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Edited on Fri Feb-26-10 04:43 PM by ellenfl
terrorism. if the act is meant to inspire terror, then it fits the definition for me. i would consider flying a plane into a building to be terrifying for those watching it come at them.
ellen fl
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sui generis
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Fri Feb-26-10 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #31 |
33. if it's meant as murder-suicide |
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it's still just a fancy version of that criminal act. He doesn't leave an organization that will benefit from this "terror".
But agreed, we disagree - :P
Have a great weekend
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willhe
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Fri Feb-26-10 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #7 |
12. Was the unabomber a terrorist? |
sui generis
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Fri Feb-26-10 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #12 |
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He definitely wanted to be "part of" a larger organization or movement, for which he would provide the manifesto, but he was also living in a different mental world than the rest of us.
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willhe
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Fri Feb-26-10 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #19 |
24. wow... i'm speechless |
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Fri Feb-26-10 03:44 PM
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Fri Feb-26-10 03:59 PM
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Fri Feb-26-10 04:48 PM
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SemperEadem
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Fri Feb-26-10 01:09 PM
Response to Original message |
3. Joe Stack is a terrorist. Period. End of story. Eff what you heard. |
sui generis
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Fri Feb-26-10 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #3 |
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I mean, not YOU, because apparently terrorism has extremely wide parameters, but what is the "official" definition.
People who use Period. End of story. Do not like to be questioned in their omnipotent and all encompassing conclusions, but I'm guessing you have a rationale.
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Fri Feb-26-10 02:56 PM
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Fri Feb-26-10 03:15 PM
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SemperEadem
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Fri Feb-26-10 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #5 |
37. dag.. I missed the deluge of deleted posts... LOL! |
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If you need an "offical definition", then go do some research. I'm not your teacher or your parent and I can say whatever I choose to say. You don't have to read what I post if your panties are in such a knot over something that is quite evident. I owe you nothing.
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sui generis
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Fri Feb-26-10 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #37 |
39. it's not about panties being wadded |
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it's about consequence. If every person who commits a criminal act that terrifies you is called a terrorist, then ghetto pants is a terrorist act to some and the DHS is accountable for charging that person with terrorism.
Think about it - the republican administration did everything in their power to make sure every phone conversation, bank statement and email was subject to scrutiny under laws that define terrorists as "enemy combatants", extrajudicial "justice" like guantanamo and waterboarding and a set of laws that assumed guilt without proof.
It's crazy to try to take a real definition of real terrorists and stretch it to encompass every form of antisocial criminal behavior. You're right you owe me nothing, except perhaps common sense.
If we assume the crash position every time we enter turbulence we all look pretty stupid. My panties are fine, thank you.
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fascisthunter
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Fri Feb-26-10 02:29 PM
Response to Original message |
10. That's what he tried to do... make a statement with his act of violence |
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and we know his views are shared and even supported by many on the right. It was terrorism...
Terrorism/ˈtɛrəˌrɪzəm/Show Spelled –noun
1.the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, esp. for political purposes.
2.the state of fear and submission produced by terrorism or terrorization.
3.a terroristic method of governing or of resisting a government.
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Fri Feb-26-10 02:50 PM
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Raston
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Fri Feb-26-10 02:57 PM
Response to Original message |
14. I can't believe you guys are actually discussing this - he was NOT a terrorist |
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Your being afraid does not define terrorism,
Wikipedia is an acceptable source, and defines it as 'the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion.'. It is the last resort of a people who, having no other means of having their perspectives heard, take their own lives to influence the thoughts and decision making processes of others.
Joe Stack wasn't trying to change your mind. He wasn't making a religious statement (ie, 'kill the infidels') nor was he under delusions that his god would surround him with virgins for his act.
He was a man who was at the end of his rope who spat his last breath at what is an untouchable organization, and he succeeded (he touched 'em alright).
Anybody who calls his act one of terrorism is buying into the political agenda we're all steamrolling towards. Haven't you seen Zeitgeist and V for Vendetta? Didn't you know that the feds tried to suppress his suicide note, but failed? And upon failure what do they do?
Minimalize the situation and brand him a terrorist. Now, look a couple years ahead. If you're in a non-violent demonstration against our government, what are you? Bingo - a terrorist, and with that label you will be held without trial or charges. No I'm not making it up, it's already happened! All we need now is a little more time and the 2012 election which the Republicans will stop at nothing to steal. You thought the patriot act was bad - just you wait.
The second amendment was designed to allow us to overthrow our own government when it gets out of control. Joe Stack used what he had to do all he could do, and now the very people he needed to wake up (you) label him a terrorist.
Way to buy the bullshit.
- Raston
"If you're not angry, you're not paying attention."
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fascisthunter
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Fri Feb-26-10 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #14 |
15. sounds like you agree with his action |
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this moron was misinformed and his reasons were bullshit. He made himself out to be some martyr while owning a fucking business... boohoohoo for him and anyother asshole that doesn't want to pay their share of taxes. He killed people because he didn't want to pay taxes to his government anymore??? I'm asure his wife and kid will see him as a revolutionary... give me a break.
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Raston
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Fri Feb-26-10 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #15 |
16. sounds like you have a perspective filter |
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Which 'helps' you interpret what other people are talking about, especially when you don't understand them.
I never told you how I felt about the matter, which is that I empathize entirely with his perspective but not his actions. I believe there are better ways to be heard. Did it occur to you to ask questions, or are you content to just slap a label on the situation and move on in your own little world?
- how many other people need psychological help? - considering the insurance, health and mental health care problems we have, you'd better know it's a lot - Did you read his suicide note? What did you agree with and disagree with, and why? - why would an obviously intelligent man do this? You don't have to be a shrink to consider his motivations. - why would an obviously intelligent man do this to his wife and family?! No, he doesn't deserve the automatic 'crazy' label - stop and think about it. - why, having been sacrificed, would his family still revere him? How were they raised - what empathy do they have that you don't? - etcetera
What Joe Stack did isn't about you nor is it about terrorism. It's about a man at the end of his rope.
The only part that has anything to do with you is what questions you ask yourself and what you learn from the event, which is apparently nothing at all. That is the biggest sadness - when something like this happens and you go back to the sports channel with not a thought in your head about the lives lost excepting to label them and move on in your own self-righteous opinion. The least you can do is learn what terrorism is - man, you're a spoiled American.. ask someone in another country what terrorism is and they'll tell you what they see every day, but YOU see this on the news associated with the word 'terrorist' and you think you know what's up... (shaking head)
- Raston
"If you're not angry, you're not paying attention."
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fascisthunter
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Fri Feb-26-10 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #16 |
23. well then, I have my filter and you obviously have yours |
willhe
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Fri Feb-26-10 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #14 |
20. dont be afraid to call it what it is... |
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you may think it's one nut job but he was just the first. when you have a news organization masking behind free speech constantly pushing an anti-government agenda what do you expect
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sui generis
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Fri Feb-26-10 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #14 |
22. it's funny sometimes while unexpectedly finding ourselves |
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Edited on Fri Feb-26-10 03:30 PM by sui generis
on pa-troll we find whole gaggle of 'em . . .
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SemperEadem
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Fri Feb-26-10 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #14 |
38. not only was he a terrorist, but he was a tax dodging |
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Edited on Fri Feb-26-10 06:18 PM by SemperEadem
rich guy who couldn't figure out how to run his businesses successfully. He could obviously afford a plane, but couldn't afford to pay his taxes on two failed businesses. He lived beyond his means and got caught up in the consequences of doing so.
Just because his nipples were pink doesn't mean that he can't be called a terrorist.
And I don't turn to movies for my rationale for justifying bullshit.
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CLANG
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Fri Feb-26-10 03:16 PM
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18. He's a terrorist alright! Call a spade a spade. |
ProgressOnTheMove
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Fri Feb-26-10 03:28 PM
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21. Exactly, it's important to call it out or it's just giving the crazies legitamacy. |
libodem
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Fri Feb-26-10 03:55 PM
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How it isn't terrorism if you name is not Mohammad.
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sui generis
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Fri Feb-26-10 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #28 |
35. that has NOTHING to do with the definition of terrorism |
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at all.
But since you had to go there if there are lights shining in the sky there must be a light switch. I mean, the logic in your statement is about as fundamental as the logic in shiny lights.
Terrorism is an act designed to engage a civilian population in the absence of a military objective. It's done to disrupt government and governance, and it is done to benefit a group of individuals or movement, using violence and fear as a political tool.
By definition a lone whacko can't engage in "terrorism" unless he's working with someone, and a lone whacko whose motivation for flying his plane into a building is disconsolate revenge for being misunderstood is just a whacko. It WAS impulsive. And it was crazy. Just like murder-suicide isn't terrorism either.
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scottban
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Fri Feb-26-10 05:00 PM
Response to Original message |
36. United States, terrorizing the Bill of Rights |
sui generis
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Fri Feb-26-10 08:13 PM
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40. please note how many of the posters on DU are coming to defend this |
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just a few hard cases, relatively speaking. Most of them just rolled their eyes and moved on without comment. At least you've managed to gather a list of people on DU who bear further scrutiny.
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seraphicx
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Sun Feb-28-10 02:23 PM
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suede1
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Sun Feb-28-10 03:49 PM
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