DU Overreaction Again...this time on Biden...

[SaveElmer]

Joe Biden made a gaffe, a stupid verbal blunder especially for someone just kicking off a Presidential campaign..he should know, especially after the Kerry joke incident, that the media is on 24 hour gaffe alert...

But he IS NOT a racist...

No reasonable reading of his record indicates he is a racist...

The NAACP doesn't view him as a racist as his rating with them confirms...

"2005 Senator Biden supported the interests of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People 100 percent in 2005." from votesmart.org

It is really dismaying to see so many supposed Democrats leap to the immediate assumption that a long time loyal Democrat with an excellent record on civil rights is all of a sudden a racist...



It is CLEAR from the context of the conversation and from his later statements that he was not talking about Barak Obama's hygiene, but used the term in a political context, meaning free of scandal etc, and in fact was complimenting him...albeit clumsily

Biden made several errors in his statement, was apparently condescending to other candidates...and he should be criticized for that...but again...

HE IS NOT A RACIST!!!!

[DURHAM D]

1. Ok. n/t

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

2. Biden's certainly a racist.

Worse, he's a racist who's supposed to be representing the people of Delaware, many of whom are black.

[progressivebydesign]

20. Does Biden have some track record of being a racist??

Or are we calling him that because of a stupid misstatement?

[TornadoTN]

26. Perhaps his comments about Dunkin' Donuts and 7-11's

He has a history of stepping in it with regards to racial issues. Is he a racist? Who knows, but he certainly needs to keep his mouth shut when it comes to ethnic topics, since he is very good at making himself look like a racist.

[BoneDaddy]

29. That's right

God forbid we talk about RACE or make a mistake, or be human cause the liberal browshirts will sic the PC police on you.

This crap makes me think some liberals are as reactionary and draconian as the right wingers.

[TornadoTN]

34. Wait just a god-damned second

I don't have a problem with him saying whatever the hell he wants to say. But when he says it, he shouldn't be surprised when some people question his meaning based off of his past track record with regards to race.

On the surface, I probably wouldn't have said anything about his comments aside from "that's a bizarre thing to say about someone you are running against". But Biden is a known liar and has a track record of stepping into big messes when he tries to discuss race. Plus, think about this - why was he discussing Obama in that way? I don't see any reason why he should have made those comments in any interview, because they stuck out like a sore thumb.

In any case, Biden is irrelevant, so I'm not going to worry about any further.

[BoneDaddy]

136. I am not defending Biden per se

I am just reacting to the "moral outrage" among some liberals as if this is a really important issue. We are all racists to some degree as we are raised by our tribal structures to dislike someone from a different tribe simply because they hail from a different group be it religious, class, race, ethnicity. People get morally indignant about how he said a "racist" comment meanwhile it is ok to bash the "other" in the next breath. I think liberals are more aware for the most part, but we certainly have our element of thought crime folks.

[Stuckinthebush]

44. Not reactionary at all

Liberals don't ignore racist issues, we discuss them and encourage our peers to discuss them as well. PC is a good thing. It makes us think about how our words and actions might be hurtful to others.

[SaveElmer]

47. Sorry...

The debate on DU has been anything but the benign enlightening discussion you say happens...for the most part we have seen people here jump to the immediate conclusion that Joe Biden is a racist...no consideration for his explanation, no look at his record on racial issues, no consideration that anyone can fuck up and say things in a way they didn't mean....

[Stuckinthebush]

53. I have seen some of that

but that noise is the loudest. I find that many are talking about the statement in a healthy critical way. Let's not fry the guy and let's not give him a pass either.

[LanternWaste]

57. I'd LOVE to see in-depth and valid discussions about this, but it just hasn't happened yet

"The debate on DU has been anything but the benign enlightening discussion..."

And that's my major problem with how we've been dealing with this issue. Ad-hominems are getting tossed back and forth like tennis balls, context is discarded faster than would be on Fox News, intent is ignored for the most part... for all intents and purposes, most of the threads regarding this puerile issue appear to be nothing more than middle school cafeteria food fights.

I'd LOVE to see in-depth and valid discussions about this, but it just hasn't happened yet.

[Parche]

68. EXACTLY

I am with you on this, Biden maybe had a poor choice in words, but he is NOT a racist
and I dont know how anyone can claim he is, a few people are making a mole hill out
of something that is not.

A Kramer he is not...................

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

72. ...

"no consideration for his explanation"

I couldn't care less about his explanation. There's always an explanation. "I'm not racist, I've got lots of nice friends." "I was drunk and I didn't mean it." "I have Alzheimers and Michael Moore tricked me." Blah blah blah.

"look at his record on racial issues"

Actually, a cursory look at his record on racial issues shows this isn't the first time he's made racist comments.

"no consideration that anyone can fuck up and say things in a way they didn't mean...."

Oh, he fucked up alright. He didn't mean to say it, alright. He's still a racist.

[SaveElmer]

109. Not one fact in that whole post...

Just another left-wing rationalization for continuing to call Biden a racist when the evidence is clearly the opposite!!!

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

116. What's the evidence for the opposite?

I mean, we've got his two blatantly racist statements that prove he's a racist.

But I'll humor you.

[SaveElmer]

118. First...

There are not blatantly racist....as even Barack Obama says...it is clear listening to the tape, and with subsequent explanation what he was saying

Second, his entire record is not that of a racist...he receives the highest possible marks from the NAACP for example, and is heavily supported by the African-American community in Delaware...

What astounds me is the people here will take the MOST unlikely explanation for his comments ...

That he is a closet racist just waiting for the first day of his Presidential campaign to let the world know it...

And treat it as fact...


No different than assuming every UFO is a flying saucer...

That interpretation makes no sense given his record, and his support from the very people you claim he is racist against

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

119. Oh, they're blatantly racist.

Obama's just being a bigger man about it.

Biden didn't just insult Obama, he insulted the entire black race.

"Second, his entire record is not that of a racist...he receives the highest possible marks from the NAACP for example, and is heavily supported by the African-American community in Delaware..."

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And Charleton Heston once marched with Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. None of that means he's not a racist.

"What astounds me is the people here will take the MOST unlikely explanation for his comments ...

That he is a closet racist just waiting for the first day of his Presidential campaign to let the world know it..."

I astounds me that people will go out of their way to apologize for racism. Are they fooling themselves? Because they're not fooling anybody else.

[SaveElmer]

120. Two posts...

No facts...just another ad hominem rationalization for you to bash Joe Biden...

Absolutely pathetic!!!

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

121. ...

:nopity:

[motocicleta]

141. That's a mighty small violin ya got there

Looks like this thread might git me some more people for my ignore list - and you're not one of them.
cheers

[BoneDaddy]

135. There are some in the liberal

arena, much more so than in the conservative republican arena, who are fair, but there is a strong element of liberals in here that are "fascist" in orientation in terms of government involvement and ultra PC behavior. I have a problem with that as much as I have the theocrats corporatists shoving their reality down my throat.

I think the liberal outrage on this issue is petty.

[Stuckinthebush]

138. I am not advocating outrage

I am advocating a critical analysis of Biden's comments. I hope he does the same.

I also think that if we as liberals sweep these comments under the rug, then we are being hypocrites. We don't have to kick the guy to the street, but we should ask that he and others think about what he said and why he said it. Then we move on with the knowledge that we helped him, us, and others delve deeper into understand the manifestation of racist language in our everyday lives. Perhaps through this awareness we can all do a better job at being reflexive with actions and language.

[BoneDaddy]

143. No problem there

I was more reacting to the "kick the guy to the street" crowd. But I really, honestly, do not think he meant what some people think or project he meant onto Obama. I just think that some folks look for screw ups a bit to much.

[Captain Hilts]

112. His comment about Dunkin' Doughnuts and 7/11 describes my neighborhood accurately. nt

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

50. Yes.

Not that it's necessary.

[Horse with no Name]

45. Wow

I thought he only represented the credit card companies.

[Parche]

63. biden

What do you base that statement on????

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

67. His racist statements.

:shrug:

[Parche]

77. racist statements

I dont see anywhere that he made racist statements at all..........

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

117. Nonsense.

You've seen the statements where in he believes in the 7-11/indian immigrant stereotype, and the one wherein he disparages black people for being inarticulate and dirty.

[Parche]

124. 7-11 statements

They have nothing to do with what he said recently

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

125. Well, no.

It's a wholly different racist slur. From a few weeks ago.

[bridgit]

155. dude, i appreciate your posts but where did that come from...

are you saying the old white money of colonial Delaware minus "the black people" is racist

[Skidmore]

3. I have a question.

Who's Elmer? And why should we save him?

[sniffa]

4. no one here is cLaiming he is racist

HE JUST SAYS RACIST THINGS!

[SaveElmer]

5. Not true...

There have been numerous posts accusing him of racism...

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

19. "He's a guy who says racist things"

is just a passive way of saying he's a racist.

[sniffa]

22. not true

it's a matter of fact way of saying someone's a racist.

[Hosnon]

126. I disagree.

To be a racist or a Democrat or a Muslim or anything requires some degree of consistency and frequency.

[tularetom]

6. He has an unfortunate habit of running his mouth before

engaging his brain. The good part of that is that sometimes he manages to blurt out the truth about bush and his asshole policies before he realizes what he has just said. The bad part is that it doesn't happen often enough.

[SaveElmer]

7. That is certainly true...nt

[gatorboy]

8. Didn't Biden make some remark about Indians and 7/11's previously?

[AlCzervik]

10. yes he did and if his recent comments coupled with those ones don't do him in

he'll implode down the line somewhere. Joe loves to hear himself speak and they will be his undoing.

[burythehatchet]

13. he made the same joke that my ex-boss used to make

No matter what I achieved I was a 7-11 clerk.

[burythehatchet]

9. Racism is not a "yes or no" switch

everyone of us (except Stevn COlbert) sees race. Our race based decisions lie on a spectrum.

[Kickin_Donkey]

11. B.S. ... Racism in all its forms should always be challenged ...

with a vengeance.

Including apologists who deny there is racism.

[SaveElmer]

15. B.S....learn to stick to the topic...

I of course never claimed their wasn't racism...another bullshit rhetorical tactic to ascribe a position to me that I did not take...

I am saying that Joe Biden is not a racist...that is a fact

[Greyhound]

94. And we are to believe that you have some special power to see into

another mans heart? You have made a declaration of fact that you have no way of knowing.

[SaveElmer]

108. I read the record...

You are the one ascribing motivation where no evidence of it exists...

[Virginia Dare]

12. Not a racist, just a pompous ass..

and a patronizing gas bag.

[blm]

14. And especially right after the Hillary joke, gaffe, Freudian slip. Karma will getcha.

Eventually.

[karynnj]

36. True, but the Hillary story only lasted a little over a day,

because none of the Democrats jumped on it and many defended her even as she never settled on a single explaination.

That does suggest the solution. The Democrats have to insist that this silly gotcha game end. Biden may be a jerk - which I get by seeing how he is running the SFRC (I seriously wish we could swap him with the gracious Lugar, with politics adjusted.) - but as you say, there is nothing in his record to say he is racist.

I say, we need to treat all of us as we treat Hillary and Bill Clinton, who are always defended.

[The Count]

84. Uh, there's no equivalence of Hillary's joke and Biden's slur, sorry

I won't defend this slur of Biden anymore than I would defend this particular statement he made when he confirmed Condi

Rice Takes Center Stage at Confirmation Hearing
Democrats Press Nominee on Iraq
By ANNE GEARAN,
http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id=20050116...
.......Foreign Relations Committee Chairman Richard Lugar opened
Tuesday's hearing with warm words about Rice, who has served a mostly
behind-the-scenes role at the White House for the past four years. He
called her "highly qualified'' for the post.
Biden also praised Rice, but noted that "relations with many of our
oldest friends are quite frankly scraping the bottom right now.''
However, Biden also had blunt advice for European critics: "I have one
simple message: Get over it. Get over it. President Bush is our
president for the next four years. So get over it and start to act in
your interest, Europe.''..........

[The Count]

106. You don't really equate the two, are you? As much as you hate the Clintons,

you won't give Biden a pass just to burn Hillary again...On an un-botched joke as it were...

[blm]

123. Nope. The point was that everyone is going to have a slip and don't deserve scolding

or condemnation from others in their party when it is obviously a slip.

EVERY one that has the constant attention of cameras and microphones will have a slip up especially when they're exhausted from the campaigning. The difference becomes what OTHERS choose to say about it - join the RW lie machine and scold right along with the liars, or see the slip (or gaffe or dropped pronoun in a joke) for what it really is.

[The Count]

142. But some slips are more Freudian than others - reveal uglier aspects - are indefensible

I don't know if Biden intended to be nice - he actually slammed all his opposition. But he sure revealed a state of mind that I for one want to have nothing to do with.

[blm]

165. Hillary didn't scold Biden for his slip. She was not scolded for HER slip.

Hillary, DID, however, join with Bush and McCain to scold Kerry and played along with the RW lie that he insulted the troops.

Is there any Democrat who HONESTLY believes that the senator wellknown to have the strongest record of supporting troops, veterans, and their families would insult the troops?

[The Count]

166. Scolding Kerry was low. Her own "slip" was BS.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

16. Definite Overreaction And Definitely Harmless Comments. Unfortunately, We Are Once Again Faced With

knee-jerk opinion rather than logically deduced objective opinion. Topics that are apt to stir up deep emotion and passion are often victims of such circumstance, and there is probably little we or anyone else can do to change the situation.

I can't say Biden isn't a racist, as I simply don't know him well enough and I've been surprised before by people who I would've sworn weren't racist but turned out in certain ways to be. But for this issue and this statement, it is readily clear that it was not issued with any tone of racism; though some perceived it as having been.

[Greyhound]

87. If this were an isolated incident, I might agree, after all anybody can

make a silly, or unconsidered comment, but in view of his previous idiocies (sourced elsewhere in this thread), it does show a pattern.

His weak-assed excuse for the "clean" comment is really pathetic. So either is a racist, or an idiot, either way not Presidential material. Not that I'd ever support a corporatist in any case.

[RiverStone]

17. Before the "gaffe" Biden's chance of winning

the Presidential nomination of our party was .001 %

after -

.000%

[JerseygirlCT]

18. He's not a racist. He DOES seem to have a problem with

foot in mouth disease, however. And that could seriously be a problem.

For a guy so smart (and I do think he's very smart), he's said some things that really make you shake your head and wonder: why did he choose to open his mouth just then?

[Laurab]

58. I agree with your assessment

foot and mouth disease - yes, racist, no. I also think he's very smart. I've heard him go off on the * administration and make so much sense, and be so passionate, I've been really impressed. THEN he goes and votes for whatever it is he was just railing against. Those are the times I shake my head and wonder. I do think he likes to hear himself talk a little too much, but I don't share most DU'ers dislike for him.

I'm not sure if any candidate is going to make it through this process when we start analyzing every single word and deed almost TWO years before the election. If someone does, I'll be amazed.

[JerseygirlCT]

61. I know. That's why I'm holding off even considering

who I'm supporting yet.

Plenty of time for that, and in the meantime, it would be nice not to eat our own.

[Laurab]

66. Agreed again

I have no idea who I'll support, and probably won't until sometime next year.

In the meantime, there are a lot of things the Dems need to try and get done, and an administration that needs to be stopped. I try to save my outrage for the people who are running the country into the ground, and they aren't members of the Democratic Party.

I don't understand the circular firing squad....

[Dunedain]

146. Ask the scorpion why it stung the fox.

[hashibabba]

21. I'm really, really sick, so didn't hear everything about the Biden

comment. But when I heard it, I took it to mean, Obama (as opposed to, say, Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, etc.) is *white* enough to run for president.

[gordianot]

23. It is easy to get used to Politicians uttering comments without thinking.

Maybe Mr. Biden did not consider the deeper message of what he said about Mr. Obama when he tried to pay him a compliment on his ability to deliver a message. Apparently the deep structure of the message was not lost on Mr. Obama who is very astute in these matters from a lifetime of direct experience.

In October last year Mr. Obama encountered Mr. George W. Bush with a handshake. Mr. Bush felt it was necessary to get a squirt of Purrel from an aid and offered some to Mr. Obama. Mr. Obama did not miss that message either when Mr. Bush offered him a squirt, which Mr. Obama accepted. This is another example of a message(non verbal) with a deeper structure not atypical in the political world. What was witnessed in Mr. Biden's comments and Geoge W. Bush's actions was a political knife fight which Mr. Obama came out the clear winner. Comments on DU just proves who is the better politician.

[Stuckinthebush]

24. Nah...

Not overreacting at all. Use this litmus test: If the same statement came out of John McCain's mouth or Dick Cheney's mouth, then how would we react?

Biden screwed up and it'll cost him. We should point out the error in his statement, and critically analyze what he was saying. Anti-racism is hard to do, but necessary.

[SaveElmer]

27. Accusing a loyal Democrat with an excellent Civil rights record...

Of racism because of a verbal gaffe, is overreaction...

You can apply Occam's razor to this scenario....what is more likely...

1. Joe Biden...who achieves a 100 rating from the premier civil rights organization in the country...and who decided on the first day of his Presidential campaign to out himself as a racist...

or

2. He made a verbal gaffe that sounded like something he did not mean

[Stuckinthebush]

41. Racism isn't necessarily only of the KKK variety

We all have racist tendencies. Just because someone has an excellent civil rights record doesn't give him a pass for insensitive remarks.

The point is not to crucify Biden, but to point out how we have to constantly be vigilant about our own internal racist tendencies. If we give Joe a pass and say, "Well he really didn't mean THAT, he meant something else!", then it is the height of hypocrisy.

Let's not sweep this under the rug, rather let's be clear that such statements are not acceptable in the Democratic Party. Biden has made his apologies, and that is good. He will think hard about his words and perhaps through this critical analysis he will become a much better defender of anti-racism in the world. Criticism is not bad, it can actually be helpful.

So, here is to Joe Biden for realizing that he screwed up and hopefully he has started examining some internalized biases.

[SaveElmer]

43. ...

"The point is not to crucify Biden..."

Except on DU

"but to point out how we have to constantly be vigilant about our own internal racist tendencies."

Haven't seen any of that here...all I see are blanket condemnations of him as a racist

"If we give Joe a pass and say, "Well he really didn't mean THAT, he meant something else!", then it is the height of hypocrisy."

In other words crucify him without regard to what the actual situation was, or give him any chance to explain what he meant.

[Stuckinthebush]

52. Not at all...

I am sure there are some who overreact, but the discussion of Biden and his foolish statement is quite healthy.

His explanation is fine, but of course he isn't going to say, "Well, OK...I guess deep down I still harbor the culturally derived image of African Americans as dirty and stupid. My statement reflected that deep seated image, and while I certainly don't feel that African Americans are that way, I need to continue to critically analyze the societal biases that have been ingrained in all of us from birth."

No of course not. He will say, "I meant that Obama is a fresh candidate!" I believe that is what he really thinks he meant. But the words betrayed something deeper which is in all of us. THAT is what we should be discussing about Biden's comment.

[Zodiak]

78. I feel the same way, Stuckinthebush

Guess what? I am a racist.

I hate it. I hate it worse than any other part of me, but it is there. I never act on it consciously (any more) because it is ugly and self-damaging, but I still initially react to people of color differently (a little fear...a little "what will they think of me"). It is entirely internal, now, unless I talk about it. Like here. I am not entirely color-blind, yet, but I'm working on it every day.

I think that if you were raised in a racist culture (as I was), it is your life-long mission to undo the damage, and that cannot be done by denying the racism is there.

It would be so easy for me to pass myself off as a non-racist...and I would vote for NAACP-sponsored legislation 100% of the time, too. I don't act on it, and I am a liberal....no one would ever know.

That's also why I do not believe Biden wasn't being entirely non-racist. He was being unconsciously racist as I have seen so many seemingly non-racist people do before.

[Stuckinthebush]

80. Bingo!

That's what I'm talking about. Thanks for the thoughtful reply!

[HamdenRice]

81. Wow, Zodiak -- that's quite a moving confession -- take a look here....

Although I started a thread criticizing Biden, I also posted here comparing him to Bella Abzug and Bram Fischer, based on certain anecdotes. I think this is what you mean when you say you are a racist but not a racist:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=101735&mesg_id=102472

[WI_DEM]

25. if it had been a DU favorite who committed this gaffe it would have been

excused, but because it's Biden it isn't.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

88. Yup.

[verse18]

28. The Great White Father has spoken,

Thus it is so.:sarcasm:

[Karenina]

31. You'll find that dynamic

on most of the Biden threads.

[SaveElmer]

35. Actually the dynamic I find...

Is that a huge section of DU jumps to the immediate conclusion that Joe Biden is a racist...without even thinking through how stupid that is....

[Karenina]

115. Joe Biden made a stupid, ignorant racially insensitive remark.

Not the first time. And, of course, all of us who recognize it in it's resplendent stupidity as revealing, shall we say, underlying issues, are according to YOU, (in your self-appointed Great White Father role), stupid. DU is now Burger King. HAVE IT YOUR WAY!!! Brauchst Du ein Taschentuch?

[SaveElmer]

161. Another post...no facts...

In that self-appointed, self-righteous, "guardian of the absolute truth", but almost always fact free way, that has become prevalent here at DU...

[sniffa]

32. that is aLL

[asjr]

30. We wouldn't be having this

discussion but for the media. I am tired of hearing the pundits, reporters, etc. talk this to death. Biden isn't one of my favorites, but he is human and sometimes has trouble getting his brain and tongue to agree, but it has become 24/7 on Biden's gaffe and the so-called "bombs" in Boston. The media roll out the bandwagon and ask us to ride along with them.

[me b zola]

144. Not true

Biden's "comment" was the first thing I heard yesterday morning when I turned on the news--and my jaw hit the floor. Mind you, this was before the rukus had broke out, Biden's full comments were played, beginning with what he said about Hillary and there was no fluffy stuff added.

I also disagree with those who say that if that comment had come from our favorite candidate it would be swept under the rug. Sorry to disappoint, but those comments are that damn offensive regardless of who they come from and they illistrate the chasm in US race relations.

I would venture to guess that none of the DUers who believe that there is an over-reaction to Biden's comments do not watch or participate in the anual State of Black America.

[goodhue]

33. His gaffe revealed apparent unconscious racial bias

A bias which is well spread and certainly not limited to Biden. But he should know better.

[gordianot]

37. Correct He may not be entirely aware of it himself, he definitely feels threatened.

[blues90]

38. Biden is a racist and Biden is a fool

He even gave you the new improved bankrupt bill living in a state of the banking industry , one hell of a guy .

[SaveElmer]

40. Bullshit,,,

Nothing in his record to show racism...the NAACP doesn't view him as racist, the African American voters in his state have not, Barack Obama does not...

The bankruptcy bill has precisely 0 to do with this topic...

[Phredicles]

39. He's not a "racist" per se, just a dickhead.

:P

[hedgehog]

42. Racist or not, he is a plagiarist!

So much for the value of experience!

[npincus]

46. no, he's a Stupid White Guy...

aside from his condescending remarks about Obama, how dare he rip his Dem comrades to shreds like that? Innapropriate at this stage of the game, and giving ammo to our Repuke enemies.

[terisan]

48. Changing Times-Biden may be more progressive than his critics

There was a time in the 1970s and 1980s when people in power would claim that it was difficult to find a woman or an African-American who was "articulate." Usually they were trying to excuse the lack of diversity in their boardrooms or upper management. It revealed the speaker's bias-because at that time no one would claim that it was hard to find an "articulate" white male. Using the word "articulate" implied something different then.

I think we are beyond that.

I think something similar but more complicated is true about the word "clean."

If Biden had used his terminology about a younger white male opponent would anyone thought his phrasing strange? I think that is the test.

I think what Biden revealed is his personal concern about winning against an opponent who is well-spoken ( a trait Biden prizes), fresh or new on the national stage (without the baggage a lot of politicians believe they carry due to having a long track record). He was also standing back to analyse why Obama might have more appeal to the voting public than he does.


I think the press and media are behind the times and also whip it up as racism due to the relative death of African-Americans among their ranks in general and specially in high positions. Projection.

[LanternWaste]

49. My grandad was a pretty insightful and smart guy...

My grandad was a pretty insightful and smart guy. One thing he told me over and over again:

"You can ALWAYS find an insult if you look hard enough-- even in the places where none exist."

[AndyTiedye]

51. If He's Not a Racist, Is He Just Saying This to Pick Up Southern Votes?

:thumbsdown:

[alstephenson]

54. We're doing EXACTLY what the Repukes and MSM want us to do!!!

Bicker among ourselves, pit one candidate against the other, spend time and effort discussing things that don't matter (I'm not saying racism doesn't exist and that it doesn't matter). Let's move on folks!

[SaveElmer]

56. Bingo...I agree...

Which is why I have to call bullshit on these trends...to automatically assume the absolute worst about fellow Democrats...

[skyblue]

160. Make No Democratic Candidate Viable!! --Even for VP!! -- Absolutely

Exactly. It's just totally counterproductive. I really don't understand sometimes why this is called the Democratic Underground.

[liberal hypnotist]

Joe is a good Senator!

He's not presidential material. I agree, he's not a racist and it's only the talking heads making news.

[LondonReign2]

55. OK...he's just a pompous jackass then

There, I feel better about him.

[AtomicKitten]

59. whatever

It was a stupid, tactless remark and, regardless of whether or not he meant it to come off that way, it reeked of racism. Political foot-in-mouth disease isn't something I have a lot of sympathy for. When you put yourself out there, you take your lumps.

[Warren DeMontague]

60. Well, Joe Biden disqualified himself from presidential worthiness with that asinine RAVE act, IMHO.

Just like certain other contenders shouldn't be allowed within 500 feet of the Nomination due to their inability to explain their vote for the IWR and formulate a cogent, morally consistent message on ending the Iraq war sooner rather than later.

[TZ]

62. dishonest and stupid

not conciously racist. This is the man who admitted to plagiarism remember? I think what he spouted about Obama was more ignorant than anything else. Granted his views "seem" liberal (and this guy changes his stances ALOT) but do we really what a liberal version of Chimpy in the WH. I think not. Let him stay in Congress where he MIGHT do some good and is less likely to cause problems

[bullwinkle428]

64. We do not need a "DEMOCRATIC DUBYA" - we know it's obvious that

wingnut politicians can spew gaffe after gaffe from their piehole while all the while, the Fox Noises of the world will spin those gaffes as much as they can to make said politician appear "folksy". Totally different ballgame for a Democratic politician - look what they did to John Kerry (and I'm in no way trying to compare Kerry to Biden, who has a history of "public-speaking problems").

[bullwinkle428]

105. I'm not normally one to blow my own horn, but Randi Rhodes

just echoed my original sentiment on her show (posted well before her show started)!

:party: :headbang:

[matcom]

65. I don't care if he is racist or not

because he just lost the nomination on the SAME DAY he announced he was running.

PRICELESS

:rofl:

[Nutmegger]

69. At least we're off Edwards' house.

I mean that was getting so old.

What going to be DU this weekend will be a surprise.

[treestar]

And we're off those guys who got stranded while mountaineering

This too shall pass!

[GeorgeGist]

70. Mighty White of Him

[yardwork]

71. His comment was totally racist

Whether that makes Biden himself a racist or not is not the point.

It was an extremely racist comment, and there is no excuse for it.

[SaveElmer]

86. Sorry, that makes Zero sense...

If he made a misstatement without racist intent...it is not racist...

It was clear what he meant, and in fact if you listen to the tape it is very clear what he meant...

[Greyhound]

91. Listening to the statement makes it clear he believes Obama is

"a good one" thereby implying that he is an exception to the rule. Why do think otherwise. Besides being factually wrong, it was a really impolitic comment to make.

[SaveElmer]

103. He is an exception...

In political terms...and that is true...and that is what Biden meant...

Jackson, Sharpton, Mosely-Braun were not viable Presidential candidates...Obama is.

[HuffleClaw]

73. ANYONE who says ANYTHING about obama will be labelled.

its comical.

[treestar]

92. Would it be racist to say he is "handsome?"

Doesn't that imply that I expect black guys to be ugly?

[Hosnon]

127. Everyone can be safe by simply insulting Obama.

After all, if I call him an idiot, aren't I implying that I expect black guys to be smart?

:)

[Madspirit]

134. Would it be racist to say he is "handsome?"

I would be if you said he is handsome for a black man.
Madspirit

[Lobster Martini]

74. Parapraxes

Freud called them parapraxes. Parapraxes are slips of the tongue that reveal subconscious thoughts. But every statement doesn't call for Freudian analysis. Sometimes people just drop a clanger.

Jimmy Carter wrote one sentence in his latest book that seems to condone suicide bombers, so he must be anti-semitic. Joe Biden stuck his hoof in his mouth, so he must be a racist.

Interestingly, no one has mentioned Barack Obama’s verbal malfunction. This is from ABC News:

Asked about the comments at a press conference this afternoon, Obama said, "you'd have to ask Senator Clinton, uh, Senator Biden what he was thinking," initially stumbling by mentioning the name of the Democratic front-runner for the nomination, Sen. Hillary Clinton of New York.

No one has questioned whether he was trying to link Sen. Clinton to a statement she didn’t make. I don’t think he meant to. As I said, they are not always parapraxes. Sometimes people just drop a clanger.

[treestar]

97. Does this make Senator Obama a sexist?

It makes about as much sense.

I'm still trying to figure out what's insulting about being called "articulate."

[Silence Dogood]

131. The good old US of A calls it

closet racism.

thud!

and that well place slip you pointed out was NO Slip!

rather a well placed dart.

[mvd]

75. If not a racist, he sure is ignorant

Let's see - he managed to get a swipe in at progressives and make a Bush-worthy gaffe about black people in the same statement. Even worse, he left out the word "candidate" in his statement.

And then, he also attacked Edwards and Hillary. Can't we at least wait for the primaries for that stuff? I mean, who's side is he on?

[Hippo_Tron]

76. The problem isn't DU, it's the media and Biden's gaffe is going to cost him if not kill him

As much as DUers like to think that we aren't influenced by the MSM we are to a certain extent. If the networks weren't covering Biden's gaffe then I guarantee you there wouldn't be nearly as much discussion about it.

What Biden meant to say was that Barack Obama is the first black candidate that white people take seriously, but thought that would sound even worse on a soundbite. The problem is that there's no politically correct way to say that. Frankly it wasn't something that needed to be said, so Biden shouldn't have addressed it at all because he risked offending potential voters. Unfortunately that's the consequence of modern politics. You need to carefully select your words so as not to piss anyone off.

[Warren DeMontague]

104. Oh, come on. Biden wasn't going to be the nominee before, either.

The man is an ass.

[Hippo_Tron]

129. True, but he killed any shot he may have had yesterday

Second tier candidates need to do something impressive to break out of the second tier. Instead, Biden just fucked up.

[paulk]

79. it wasn't even a gaffe...

http://www.brightcove.com/title.jsp?title=463858485

you've got the first mainstream African American... COMMA ...who is etc., etc., etc.


DU has always been willing, if not eager, to jump on any Democrat for any slight, real or imagined. Yesterday just took that to a new level. A lower level.

...

[treestar]

95. If only the media would make the same furor over Chimpy's gaffes

Yet more proof that the media is not "liberal."

[politicasista]

98. Nope. They still haven't learned a thing after Katrina n/t

[cui bono]

82. SERIOUSLY! We're heading for war with Iran and this is what we talk about???

Gawd. :eyes:

[Silence Dogood]

130. How important is this really?

I'm with you. I wouldn't care if Biden is a closet racist, which could be the case.
He says one thing and does another.

[cui bono]

152. I think it's not important because I think we know he's not racist, plus

it just doesn't really matter. It's a stupid little thing and besides, it's not like he really has a chance to win the primary anyway. Also, how far away are the elections and how close are we to attacking Iran? In the scheme of things I think we can forget about what Biden said already.

And another thing, welcome to DU! :hi:

[smoogatz]

83. Of course he is.

Everyone is, to some extent--some considerably more than others. Biden's racism seems to take the form of cluessness--he's one of those people who just shouldn't talk about race, lest they reveal the true extent to which they just don't get it. He's not a virulent, Limbaugh-style racist, or an old South segregetionist Lott-style racist. He just prefers clean, articulate black people to, you know, the other kind. An embarrassment to the rest of us Democrats, to be sure--but I doubt this particular slip will be fatal to Biden's career. Though it probably should be.

[Greyhound]

85. He obviously believes that either A. brown people are inferior, due to race, or

B. white people are superior, again due to racial stereotypes.

Either way, that is the definition of racism.

[SaveElmer]

96. Bullshit...not obvious at all...

He made a stupid verbal gaffe...it is clear what he meant...

What is clear is folks like you are intent on branding him a racist, and any fact presented about his record on civil rights issues, a logical reading of his statement, his clarification, and the fact that those to whom the statement was directed have said they believe he isn't a racist...will have no effect...

[Greyhound]

99. I have no interest in him one way or the other, and as I stated to OMC

if this were as isolated incident I'd give him a pass, like Kerry blowing his infamous punchline, anybody can make a mistake, but that is not the case here. He is a classist and a racist, believing in his own imagined superiority.

[SaveElmer]

101. Repeating it...

Does not make it so...

[Greyhound]

102. From your own keyboard...

:hi:

[treestar]

89. There is no way he is a racist

Biden may be inarticulate, but he is not a racist.

[wyldwolf]

90. Biden is as much of a racist as Howard Dean

While running for the Democratic presidential nomination in 2003, Howard Dean uttered this beauty: "I still want to be the candidate for guys with Confederate flags in their pickup trucks, "unfairly stereotyping Southern whites as confederate flag waving yahoos and displaying a remarkable insensitivity to blacks.

In 2005, During a meeting with the Democratic black caucus, Dean praised black Democrats for their work for the party, then said this:

"You think the Republican National Committee could get this many people of color in a single room?" Dean asked to laughter. "Only if they had the hotel staff in here."

Was Dean implying that African Americans are only worthy to be menial servants?

Go ahead. Spin time.

[SaveElmer]

100. Well Dean is one of the "annointed" ones...

So no gaffe he makes will be demonized around here...

I like Dean, think he is doing a good job, but you are correct...these statements can be interpreted in the same way as Biden's.

There is no fundamental difference

[Silence Dogood]

133. Dean is color blind

He never knows if the light is red or green.

[skyblue]

159. Excellent Point!!

[Greyskye]

93. not a racist, just a tool

Seriously, Biden is way on the low end of the totem pole of qualified Dem candidates. We can, and must, do much better.

[Lerkfish]

107. good luck with that.

I find it suspect that anyone can emphatically declare someone not a racist after they make a racially insensitive remark.

lessee, on the one hand I have the remark, on the other hand a categorical denial from someone who isn't Biden.

hmmm...which hand will determine my opinion?


Do i think it was an INTENTIONAL racist remark, no. but it IS a racist remark nonetheless.

[liberalnurse]

110. I no longer take the flamebait.....or engage.

DU is a mixed board today......These type of over zelous style threads are permitted even when their is a sense of disruptive mission about them. I recognize them and just move on down the page. Outing is not permitted even when one is careful. So, essentially, say you peace and let it drop. DU is "diffrent" now.

[PATRICK]

111. I do hope

something convinces him to stop wasting time on his campaign so he spends more time on accomplishing extremely critical and important things for which history will thank him- more than anything he might do as president. Of course the "slips" are silly fodder for rival machines. of course it reminds us the region that Biden comes from. He's a great empathizer with some of the most "wonderful" southern culture and figures. I remember how fondly effusive he was about his mentor- Strom Thurmond- beginning as a freshman Senator. Then he went on and on and on. Enough already. I get the picture. It isn't politeness. It's emotional judgment and a candid, unrestricted mouth. I suppose it depends on fine tuning the judgments vis a vis values but something is out of whack there as far as national leadership and issues is concerned. Voila the bankruptcy bill.

It's all a piece. The important things he accents with these slips, but it is the shallowness of accents(Dean scream) that the silly season is all about.

[Balbus]

113. Hey, if white people say it's not racist then it must not be!

I don't know what the argument is all about.

[0rganism]

114. Practically speaking, at this point, does it even matter?

You may be right. Or not. I don't know how thoroughly a man's voting record reflects the deeper reaches of his heart;

What I do know is that he's given his presidential candidacy the equivalent of a headshot right out of the starting gate, and he'll be working a sweat just to salvage his senate seat from this blunder.

[Dorian Gray]

122. If these words were uttered by Mel Gibson, Rush Limbaugh, or

basically any other Republican, what would you think? Honestly?

Personally, I believe that they are ignorant, no matter whose mouth they come out of.

[BlooInBloo]

140. DUers happily defended Michael Richards' calling black folks "nigger"....

It's nice, at least, I suppose, that they're consistent. NO ONE is racist. Well, except for those black folks, of course, who support either affirmative action or the interests of the Congressional Black Caucus.

GOD black folks are racist - they're LUCKY to have good white folks like Biden to give them shelter in this stormy weather.

:rofl: :rofl:

You guys slay me - you really, really do.

[rug]

128. Well, he was strapped to a bridge when he said it.

[Madspirit]

132. Fairly Clear

It's fairly clear what he thinks. He thinks an articulate black person is an exception to the rule, so much so, it needs saying out loud. WOW...AN ARTICULATE BLACK PERSON. Most of the black people on this board who have weighed in, think what he said is racist. That speaks volumes and is much more meaningful to me than your opinion on this.
Madspirit

[lynch03]

137. for some reason i thought it was obvious that he did all this to get media attn

[BlooInBloo]

139. Damn oversensitive negroes. They really should let white folks decide - I'm SOOO with ya!

[Reterr]

145. Wow

I actually agreed with something you said :wow:! :thumbsup:

[BlooInBloo]

148. That could be a good thing, or a bad thing, depending on....

... whether you knew I was being sarcastic.

[Reterr]

156. Duh...

"oversensitive negroes"?? Its not that oblique and I am not that stupid!

I agree with your views on race (like your Tancredo post/the DU outrage over the black caucus/affirmative-"horrors the blacks are taking over" :eyes:) even if I disagree on most everything else ;).

Its fascinating to see people defending Biden's extremely offensive comments....and yeah all those of us who find them offensive are just anti-Dem trolls :eyes:..

[BlooInBloo]

157. lol! (shrug) It's not obvious, on DU.

[SaveElmer]

162. What a load of horseshit...and typical of DU...

Self-righteous crap....like no one can have an opinion other than the self appointed left-wing, "guardians of the truth," who won't let fact or reason or logic get in the way of their mission...

[Rex]

147. True, he is just inarticulate!

:drumroll:

[fujiyama]

149. He may not be racist

but the comment was incredibly idiotic and could easily be considered insulting. It was typically condescending and patronizing of him.

It also shows his inability to speak about race and ethnicity without making an insensitive comment. Remember, this is his SECOND time making a comment like this. Previously it was about Indian-Americans.

I really don't think he knows how to interact with people outside his very limited social circle, which is made of fellow politicians, media pundits, and lobbyists from MBNA.

He's not worth the attention he's getting though. He never had a chance at the nomination anyways. Maybe this will just end his vanity run even quicker.

[951-Riverside]

150. By golly he's a democrat HE CANT BE RACIST n/t

[JCMach1]

151. Everyone, including minorities, have an element of racism within them

unfortunately Joe's came out.

[walldude]

153. Biden may or may not be a racist

personally I think he is but he doesn't realize it. Which means he's trying not to be. That's beyond the point though. What he said was plain stupid. You can't argue with that. Whether he meant something else or whatever, he knew everyone was listening and he should have chosen his words more carefully. In this day and age if you want to run for office you better be able to open your mouth without sticking your foot in it.

[Rex]

154. Biden is a total racist!!!

Maybe not total, but your post compels me to disagree with you! :P

[Zorra]

158. Seems like he doesn't want to be a racist, and doesn't think he is,

but hasn't thought the whole race/culture thing through yet.

"I mean, you got the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy. I mean, that's a storybook, man."

No matter how you spin it, the comment appears to indicate insidious racial bias and cultural elitism. Senator Biden almost seems to be saying that Senator Obama is an "Uncle Tom", and is therefore one of those rare "good negroes".

With childlike naiveté, the statement really exposes the essential lack of consciousness that is so characteristic of much of conservative, "mainstream" America.

I feel pretty bad for Senator Biden, it's a pretty tough thing to get smacked upside the head by a negative self-revelation in a public setting.

Black is beautiful, as is every other color.

[OnionPatch]

163. It's really, really hard for me

not to think he is a racist, at least to a certain degree, after hearing those statements. Sorry. :shrug:

I understand a lot of people liked him and were hopeful, but I think he pretty much blew it with those statements. He's toast now. What a stupid, stupid, mindless, idiotic thing to say. But he said it and I, for one, will not pretend he didn't. I don't care what letter comes after his name.

[Time for change]

164. I agree

Biden's remarks may indicate that to some extent he holds to some racial stereotypes -- or maybe not, it's hard to tell from the statement that he made.

No question he meant his comments as a compliment to Obama.

Also, it is of note, that he qualified his comment with the word "MAINSTREAM" politician. He wasn't implying that Jesse Jackson, etc., weren't articulate or any of those other things. Taken at face value, his comments meant only that the other Black politicians mentioned by Obama were not mainstream. One can argue whether or not Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton, etc. are 'mainstream' politicians -- but to imply that they are not is certainly not racist.

A good argument can be made that Jesse Jackson is way too far left to be considered mainstream, for example. I do not by any means mean that as a criticism of him. As a liberal, I tend to prefer politicians who are not mainstream -- such as John Conyers, Russ Feingold, Dennis Kucinich, and Barbara Boxer.