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The Real Problem with Biden's Candidacy

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Plaid Adder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-01-07 02:30 PM
Original message
The Real Problem with Biden's Candidacy
Edited on Thu Feb-01-07 02:44 PM by Plaid Adder
I watched Biden's appearance on _The Daily Show._ The focus, of course, is on the cracks he's made about his competition, especially Obama. Yeah, all right, but I'll tell you what's really scary: his plan for Iraq.

Biden's idea, apparently, on how to get out of Iraq without having it explode entirely and all at once (instead of bit by bit, as it is now) is a 3-way partition: Kurds, Shiites, and Sunnis. Put the 3 different ethnic groups into 3 separate self-administered political units and that'll end the civil war and then we can get out.

Partition has always been a popular exit strategy for imperial powers. Historically, however, what partition basically does is make the situation worse. The Israel/Palestine situation is the result of partition. Pakistan, which despite being nominally our ally is the ultimate source for a lot of the manpower and hatredpower fueling Al Qaeda et al, was created by partition when Britain got out of India. And, of course, we know how well partition worked out as a means of getting Britain out of Ireland. Ireland was partitioned in 1922. It's 2007. Things are calming down there now, but a handful of extremists are still at it. There will probably always be a handful of extremists still at it. The point is to get to a place where those extremists cannot dictate national policy. Partition makes that very difficult.

Why? Because by carving up a geographical area and a political unit along sectarian lines, you make religious affiliation the foundation of identity for every single member of that society. Before partition, you have small groups of extremists making life miserable for everyone else--the 80% of people in any society who would just as soon do their jobs, raise their families, and get along with their neighbors. After partition, everyone has to become a sectarian. Your religious affiliation determines where you can live, it determines your relationship to your government, it determines your national identity, it determines your social standing in the community. Partition forces migration across borders--nobody wants to be living in the "wrong" state for their religion, because they're very sensibly afraid of being discriminated against and attacked. Thus, partition enforces segregation. Mixed communities disappear as people from the minority group either leave voluntarily or get forced out or killed. Segregation leads to intolerance and intrasigence; people no longer have any stake in protecting the rights of the minority or in learning to accept and value difference. As society becomes more homogeneous, and as religious affiliation becomes conflated with national identity, cultural politics become more rigid and more clearly determined by the tenets of the majority religion. Segregation combined with the presence just over the border of a state composed almost entirely of members of the adversarial sect ensures that the governments of both states (or in this case, all three) are militant, belligerent, and on very bad terms with each other.

In other words, partition creates a tremendously fertile environment for extremism.

Before you ask me for my solution, let me admit up front that I don't have one. I am not sure that there is one. We have already created a tremendously fertile enviornment for extremism, after all. But I do believe that to take the sectarian divisions that are already causing so much trouble in Iraq and not only validate them but institutionalize them with national boundaries would instensify the problem of religious hatred, not solve it.

I personally would prefer to vote for a presidential candidate who can come up with a solution that would not guarantee that for at least one generation the violence in Iraq would continue to get worse. Because that is what partition would do. I don't know why the idea continues to appeal to politicians so much when the results have usually been abysmal. I don't know why a guy with Biden's intelligence and experience would believe that you can deal with a situation like postwar Iraq the same way you deal with an elementary school classroom. Separating the troublemakers sounds like a good idea, until you think about it for about ten minutes. Borders, in general, do not solve problems; they attract them. And taking a multi-cultural society and splitting it up into hypothetically homogeneous chunks is always far more complicated than anyone claims to realize.

The only appeal of partition is that it is an easy way out for the imperial power. This is, no doubt, precisely what 70% of America is looking for, and indeed I have always been in favor of withdrawal. But I do not think that partition is the most effective way to manage the damage that we have already done; I think it will in the long run make the situation worse, and for longer, than just plain leaving.

That's what really bothers me about Biden. Thanks for listening. We now return you to your regularly scheduled media-fueled cultural skirmish.

C ya,

The Plaid Adder
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Kurovski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-01-07 02:39 PM
Response to Original message
1. K&R.
Thanks for getting right down to it.

And Biden's habit of running for president has always struck me as a real time-waster.
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Kurovski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-01-07 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #1
11. As in: a time-waster for HIM.
We, on the other hand, get to examine what a truly lousy presidential candidate and Dem looks like.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-01-07 02:43 PM
Response to Original message
2. Well said and accurate. K&R
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Kurovski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-01-07 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. I think you forgot to "R"
Still only one up there.:hi:
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-01-07 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Right you are. Gettin' old and forgetful. Thanks for the reminder.
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LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-01-07 03:56 PM
Response to Original message
5. that and the Bankruptcy Bill
He is bought and paid for by MBNA.
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Kurovski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-01-07 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. I've never forgotten that.
And I never will.
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earthlover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-01-07 04:04 PM
Response to Original message
7. Would Biden have proposed a partition for the US Civil WAR?...
....of course, the US Civil War lasted only four years, shorter than Iraq. However, what would Biden's advice be on solving the US Civil War if asked, say, in 1862? Partitioning might have seemed like the easy answer....

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Plaid Adder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-01-07 07:14 PM
Response to Original message
8. Kick because this partition shit is important
Really, people, we must keep our eye on the ball here. We are going to win the horse race as long as we don't nominate a horse that's dead. The real problem is what happens afterward.

The Plaid Adder
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-01-07 07:17 PM
Response to Original message
9. All Biden's saying is, is that when we die...
there'll be a planet for the Irish, and a planet for the Chinese, and everybody'll be happy.
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Kurovski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-01-07 07:23 PM
Response to Original message
10. Kick.
This is way more important at this point in time--and in the scheme of things--than arguing Biden's doofus comments as racist or not.

Where are all you guys? Even if you disagree.

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Kurovski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-01-07 10:33 PM
Response to Original message
12. Kick.(nt)
:kick:
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Richard Steele Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-01-07 10:39 PM
Response to Original message
13. K & R
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goodhue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-01-07 10:40 PM
Response to Original message
14. yes, indeed
For a supposed foreign affairs expert he sure has some dangerous and destructive ideas.
Democrats can do much better.
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smalll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-01-07 10:46 PM
Response to Original message
15. Absolutely right. And there's another problem with partition -
Edited on Thu Feb-01-07 10:51 PM by smalll
The U.S. government is having a hard enough time trying to get the Sunnis and the Shiites pretend to co-habitate together in a shammy federal government of Iraq. Imagine the extra disaster if we tried to draw the new borderlines (with their imput, of course, around a conference table as well as out in the streets) before we got out!
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-01-07 10:49 PM
Response to Original message
16. k & r -- A post from Plaid Adder is always a valuable read.
Thank you, PA, elegantly said.

I think Biden is an egoistic blowhard putz no matter what. Therefore, I very much appreciate your skill in making clear just some of the innumerable reasons why this is so.

sw
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rgbecker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-01-07 11:10 PM
Response to Original message
17. Whoa!
Without getting involved with Biden's personality or positions other than the division of Iraq into Kurd, Shia, Sunni regions I'd just like to add 2 cents. First of all, thanks Plaid Adder for the first decent discussion of the idea I've yet seen. Most every time I've heard the idea presented, be it on TV or in the press (See David Brooks NYT column Sunday) There is complete silence and sort of an aversion of eyes and a um-ah-gee.
Truth is, most countries are separated by borders and those on each side are not necessarily on the best of terms, and in fact that could explain the existence of the border. I can think of very few countries that are making a go of the non-homogeneous Model and it could be the Federalist constitution basis as Biden outlines it could address some of your concerns of growing animosity. Anyway, as it is an idea that hasn't gotten nearly enough air time, I think your points are well taken.
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Kurovski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 01:01 PM
Response to Original message
18. Kick.(nt)
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Hawkowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 01:18 PM
Response to Original message
19. What about Yugoslavia and USSR?
I'd be interested in your take on partition of Iraq in comparison to the aforementioned former countries? I think Biden is thinking along these lines? Granted the only reason Yugoslavia is stable is due to NATO troops deployed in Bosnia. I don't have a firm position on pro or anti partition, but I think that as every month goes by and the violence escalates, partition becomes virtually inevitable. Sort of the world throws up it's hands and sends the combatants to neutral corners. I do think a partition would draw the international community back into Iraq-- for better or worse. The Arabs would influence the Sunnis, the Turks the Kurds, and the Iranians the Shia. Russia would also seek influence as well as western Europeans.
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Plaid Adder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. I found a useful article that deals with the Yugoslavia parallel.
Edited on Fri Feb-02-07 02:14 PM by Plaid Adder
Here it is, by Timothy Noah at Slate:

Should We Partition Iraq?

Interestingly, this piece is almost three years old. The partition idea, at least in this form, does appear to have been modeled on Yugoslavia, which I have to say kind of blows my mind, for reasons Noah summarizes below:

"How would partition work? Gelb and Galbraith propose a very loose federation on the model of the former Yugoslavia. (Gelb envisions something akin to Yugoslavia as ruled after World War II by Marshall Tito, a Communist leader who avoided Soviet control; Galbraith prefers the model of Yugoslavia after Tito's death in 1980.) The obvious problem with this model is that the federation unraveled starting in the early 1990s, leading to bloody civil war."

It is an interesting piece because it shows you where the idea came from and who's liable to support it, viz., American officials despreately looking for a face-saving way out and Kurds. The Kurds have been agitating for autonomy since before this last mess happened, and just as Chalabi had his supporters in Washington, I'm sure the Kurds have theirs. But here, to me, is what's wrong with the picture this article paints:

"But Galbraith, who was ambassador to Croatia in the Clinton administration, maintains that Yugoslavia's breakup was not inevitable. If Slobodan Milosevic had been willing to settle for 'a looser federation,' Galbraith argues, 'there is every reason to think that Yugoslavia—and not just Slovenia— would be joining the European Union this May.'"

Yeah. And if the Iraqis had greeted us as liberators, Iraq would be a democracy now. My argument is that partition creates the incubator in which guys like Slobodan Milosevic are hatched. Use partition to solve a problem now, you create a worse problem later.

Also instructive is the way in which, even three years ago, even an article arguing for partition doesn't really argue that it's a good exit strategy, just that it's an exit strategy:

"But accepting a three-state solution, enclosed inside a loose federation or not, likely means giving up on certain aspirations. One aspiration is to make Iraq a democratic nation. More likely, it would be a two-thirds democratic federation or geographic region, with the possibility of a Sunni democracy down the road. Another aspiration is to establish the rule of law. In the short run, and perhaps even in the long, that would likely happen only in Iraqi Kurdistan. A third aspiration is to stop the killing. But that wouldn't happen in the Sunni territory, though it might happen later. A fourth and final aspiration is to avoid taking a country that was fascist, but not terribly theocratic, and allowing one-third of it to become a theocracy. This hope is not merely idealistic but also, conceivably, related to national security, insofar as the creation of any new Islamic theocracy provides a potential recruiting ground for al-Qaida. But Chatterbox doesn't have any great ideas about how to keep Iraqi Shiites from making that democratic choice. As Galbraith says, maybe they'll hate us less if we let them make that choice sooner rather than later."

Maybe. My money says no, though. I think the Shiites' hatred of us has probably just about become complete at this point.

Of course, I don't know whether there is any way not to make this worse, at this point. As I've said before, I really don't think we can control the outcome. I just don't think partition, historically, has been a long-term solution to much of anything.

The Plaid Adder
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Hawkowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Thanks!
Very informative.
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Kurovski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 05:44 PM
Response to Original message
22. Kick.(nt)
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