"Myth of Seperation Between Church and State"

[SemiCharmedQuark]

On another message board, a poster made a thread titled with the above. He argued that the constitution only applies the first amendment to Congress, and that various references in the documents leading up to the Constitution feature god. He asserts that "the principles of the Bible and Christianity underlie our government and American education as well"

http://boards.historychannel.com/thread.jspa?threadID=800018566&start=0

He also uses the 2002 reaffirmation of God in the motto and pledge.

Myself and other posters have brought up the "religion" of the founding fathers, the Treaty of Tripoli, Jefferson's "wall of separation"...

What am I forgetting?

[donco6]

1. The fact that it's just a really, really bad idea?

I mean, has history taught us nothing? Mixing God with government is always a disaster. Always. Even if Jefferson hadn't solidified the concept himself, it would STILL be a bad idea.

[China_cat]

2. The fact that the constitution itself

the legal document that actually tells this country how to work, does not mention any god anywhere. Also the documents 'leading up to the constitution' do not mention more than a 'creator'...not a god.

[Avalux]

3. Did you use this quote?

‘Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should “make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,” thus building a wall of separation between church and State.’

—Thomas Jefferson. Letter to Messrs. Nehemiah Dodge and others, a Committee of the Danbury Baptist Association, in the State of Connecticut. (1802)

http://christiansecularist.blogspot.com/2006/12/jefferson-danbury-baptist-association.html

The people who say this is a "Christian nation" are ignoring the facts and doing what they always do - making shit up to fit their own beliefs.

[redphish]

4. Even though many of the signers of the Constitution were Christians

they weren't anything like the fundamentalist evangelical extremists who are so hell bent on getting their church directly involved in government decisions that affect us all.

[baldguy]

8. SOME were Christians, just as some were Jews.

And I'm sure some were atheists. Most were Deists - they believed in a god, but not in the divinity of Jesus of Nazareth.

[treestar]

5. The First Amendment applies to the states through the 14th

Amendment - that took care of that argument over 100 years ago.

He has nothing to back up the "principles of the Bible" underlying anything. What principles? Does the Bible say much on the subject of free speech, freedom of religion (right!), the right to be free from unreasonable searches and seizures, the right not to be subjected to cruel and unusual punishment? It is mostly the opposite, if anything!

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

6. That the Salem Witch Trials serve as a warning

of what happens when church and state are too closely intertwined.....

[johnaries]

7. No Religious Tests for ANY office.

Also, there are some wonderful quotes by James Madison on the intentions of the framers fo the Constitution:
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GWYA,GWYA:2005-19,GWYA:en&q=Separation+Church+State+James+Madison

[baldguy]

9. It applies to Congress

And to every Department, Bureau, Agency, Commission, Authority, Administration or any other federal government division that Congress sets up, oversees and funds.

[Adsos Letter]

10. the campaign for the election of 1800

which put Jefferson into office also speaks volumes regarding Church/State separation, if you consider the opposing platforms.

Franklin, of all people, brought up the idea of opening each session of the Constitutional Convention with prayer; he suggested it, once...it was ignored and never broached again.

George Washington (as President) in a letter "To the Jews" :

"All possess alike liberty of conscience and immunities of citizenship. It is now no more that toleration is spoken of as if it was by the indulgence of one class of people, that another enjoyed the exercise of their inherent natural rights. For happily the government of the United States, which gives to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance, requires only that they who live under its protection should demean themselves as good citizens, in giving it on all occasions their effectual support..."

From the same letter:

"In this enlightened age and in this Land of equal liberty it is our boast, that a man's religious tenets will not forfeit the protection of the Laws, nor deprive him of the right of attaining and holding the highest Offices that are known in the United States."

That Washington viewed religion and morality as going hand in hand is not denied; however, those (and they are legion) who wish to present Washington's "Farewell Address" as evidence for his support of a "Christian Nation" must account for the fact that in all twenty volumes of his private and public papers and correspondence, he does not once mention the name of Jesus Christ. Although nominally an Anglican, Washington's common descriptors for God were: "Grand Architect", "Higher Cause", and "Supreme Dispenser of all Good". This is much more in line with Deism, and much closer to Washington's views as gleaned from an overall survey of his public and private papers.
"Proof-texting", popular with some fundamentalists in approaching religious debates, is not the way to really get an understanding of the issues involved. I used Washington's quotes, two of many, to highlight that broader understanding of the argument involved is required. The argument over what role, if any, religion should play in government, or in defining citizenship, has been ongoing since the Constitutional Convention, and has played a role in many political campaigns and Congressional debates, at both the State and Federal level.

The Theocrats have their own "Historian" now, David Barton, and his work twists, turns, and "de-contextualizes" quotations often. For a critique of his work, see the following link:

http://members.tripod.com/~candst/bjcpa1.htm

Rather than drone on, let me suggest three excellent books on the subject:

"The Separation of Church and State" by Forrest Church (Beacon Press)

"The Founding Fathers and the Place of Religion in America" by Frank Lambert (Princeton Press)

"The Godless Constitution" by Isaac Kramnick and R. Laurence Moore (Norton Press)

Thorough reading is recommended if you're gonna' deal adequately with the "proof-texters".

[SillyMe]

11. ok

Seems ok to me. But not sure. M.

[newyawker99]

12. Hi SillyMe!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[NoGOPZone]

13. Don't forget over two hundred years of First Amendment case law

FindLaw has a good section on the what the Establishment Clause covers.

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/amendment01/

on edit: Here's an interesting section from the above link

That his (Madison's) conception of ''establishment'' was quite broad is revealed in his veto as President in 1811 of a bill which in granting land reserved a parcel for a Baptist Church in Salem, Mississippi; the action, explained President Madison, ''comprises a principle and precedent for the appropriation of funds of the United States for the use and support of religious societies, contrary to the article of the Constitution which declares that 'Congress shall make no law respecting a religious establishment.''' 8 The Writings of James Madison (G. Hunt. ed.) 132-33 (1904)

[Bucky]

14. The History Channel boards are a wingnut cesspool

I really can't bear the irrational chatter than goes on there. If you're not accused of being a socialist or a terrorist at least once a week there, you're not thinking.