Instead of trying to block illegal immigration, why not go to the source?

[hedgehog]

As long as conditions at home are bad, people from Mexico and Central America will find a way to come here. Instead of talking about quotas and green cards and work permits, why not a Marshall Plan for Mexico and Central America?

[AzDar]

1. Because right now, we need a Marshall Plan for the U.S.

[barb162]

25. ding, ding, ding, ding, ding!

[jaksavage]

2. NAFTA

the anti marshall plan.

[Rydz777]

9. You are so right. NAFTA was the final blow to an already sick

Mexican economy. It forced a corrupt third world economy into direct competition with our own, and millions of campesinos found their subsistence agriculture unable to compete with our massive agri-businesses. So, facing starvation, they headed north.

[acmavm]

3. Instead of coming here, why don't they stay in their own country

and fight for worker's rights and a livable wage?

edit: and don't anybody get all ignorant and uppity and 'assume' that I'm speaking only about the Hispanics.

[Bridget Burke]

8. Quite a few Mexicans do protest.

Here's the crowd protesting the last, highly questionable, Mexican election. How many of us hit the streets when the Presidency was stolen from Gore?

Have you read about the Oaxacan teachers' strike? www.villagevoice.com/news/0646,weinberg,75023,2.html

(Yeah, you aren't really talking about "Hispanics.")

[acmavm]

13. How in the hell do you know what I'm talking about? The only illegals

in this country aren't Hispanic. They are the majority.

And I know about the Oaxacan teachers' strike. And the controversy surrounding their last election.

That has NOTHING to do with what I asked. None of what you posted does.

[Bridget Burke]

15. "The only illegals in this country aren't Hispanic."

And you wonder why people don't understand what you're talking about!

[acmavm]

17. Whatever Bridget. Plain and simple, I don't care what YOU

understand. Just don't put words into my mouth (or into my posts).

[Jim Warren]

37. Heh, didn't you know?

This board has posters that read minds.:rofl:

[gravity]

47. There needs to be someone willing to pay you your wage first

The problem that plagues many developing nations is the lack of capital, government instability, and weak financial institutions.

Without these in place, people will remain poor and efforts for worker's rights will be futile.

[ComerPerro]

60. oh, yeah, and let me guess. This is the part where you singlehandedly take credit

for all workers rights gained since the industrial revoultion, right?

That's usually where this racist line of bullshit leads next.

[blogslut]

4. Oh

I thought you meant go to the real source. The employers that refuse to pay decent US legal wages and would rather ship poor folk from other countries and pay them crap wages.

[havocmom]

12. BINGO!

The problem on the north side of the border is Illegal Employers.

Work for global economic justice AND enforce the laws against hiring undocumented workers here. Stop the abuse!

[EFerrari]

18. No, the real source is the US government destablizing democracy

in Latin America to benefit their corporate owners. Employers are 'way down the food chain.

Look at what BushCo is doing in Venezuela. They're doing everything in their power to get rid of Chavez because he's kicking Exxon out. BushCo has a whole operation down there (and up here) working 24/7 to get rid of him.

[EFerrari]

21. Here's a link to a thread I'm trying to develop in the Latino forum

of the history of US meddling in Latin America. It's by no means complete but if you read around, you'll see that we have a history of getting rid of progressive governments in favor of authoritarians who play ball with corporations and screw the people.

(Also, the famous documentarian John Pilger is releasing a new film "The War on Democracy" about this very topic. As of now, it will NOT be released in the United States . . .)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=379&topic_id=798&mesg_id=798

[kineneb]

26. check out the books by Chalmers Johnson

he has lots of good info for you, especially in Sorrows of Empire.

[EFerrari]

28. You bet. I read Overthrow and needed a month to recover.

But he's very clear and so, on to the rest of the trilogy. :)

[Cleita]

43. Exactly, It's something they don't teach you in history class and

that Americans have a hard time wrapping their brains around because they can't believe that they are the bad guys in this, but if anyone reads anything that Noam Chomsky has written about American interference in Latin America, they might begin to start to get a clearer picture about what has been going on. It seems to have started with the Monroe Doctrine and we need to get away from that.

[blogslut]

81. I agree

We've been screwing with Latin American countries for a long time. Since the Korean war, our leaders have pretty much spread chaos in small nations. To them, "spreading democracy" is a marketing term. What they're really doing is making sure these small nations never achieve autonomy over their governments and resources.

[pberq]

5. The U.S. government could make a big difference

by not supporting the corrupt regimes in Mexico and elsewhere

[UTUSN]

6. The same solution applies to U.S. drug demand and U.S. arms manufacture

Instead of the so-called "war on drugs" and Rethug cutting of social programs, invest in rehabilitation and education social services (NOT "faith"-based) that will strategically reduce the DEMAND for drugs here.

And, the U.S. might curtail the manufactre and sale of armaments and stop acting surprised when our customers USE those arms.


Listening, Rethug lurkers out there?!!1 It's called Supply and Demand.

[NNN0LHI]

7. We currently divert 90% of the water from the Colorado river before it gets to Mexico

The last 10% is so saline it is worthless unless we de-salinate it for them. A lot of illegal immigrants are out west picking crops that wouldn't grow there without diverting the Colorado river. We could let that water go down to Mexico and let the Mexican people pick the crops there.

But no one ever mentions that.

Don

[Lars39]

11. So true.

[EFerrari]

20. I didn't know that. n/t

[kineneb]

27. back to the books, see: Cadilliac Desert!

Should be required reading for everyone west of the Rockies. Yup, we claim the water rights from the Mighty Colorado, and at best, a trickle reaches Mexico.

[EFerrari]

30. And here all this time, I thought Los Angeles was stealing our water.

It really is about the water. :thumbsup:

[libnnc]

45. Thanks for that reference

I'm adding that book to my reading list. :hi:

[ulysses]

10. because that would make too much damned sense.

recommended.

[treestar]

14. Why not try to block contract murder first, or unjustifiable wars

or carjacking, or kidnapping, or something dangerous?

Who cares how many Mexicans are here?

Oh, and let's block the American corn subsidies, those that, under Nafta, drive the Mexicans out of the growing corn business.

[blondeatlast]

16. Far too sensible, HH, and we need a common "enemy." It SHOULD be the corrupt Mexican

government (the one the US helped very much to put into power), but the corrupt Mexican government has the means to stand up for themselves.

A Marshall Plan is a great idea, but not a chance with this administartion.

[EFerrari]

19. Without BushCo interference, I bet you the progressive would

have been seated.

[blondeatlast]

22. Yes, and too many DUers are utterly ignorant about the issue. nt

[EFerrari]

23. Well, our government doesn't exactly advertise it, does it?

We have to work pretty hard to find out what's really going on. :shrug:

[blondeatlast]

24. True that. My co-workers appreciate hearing news they don't get anywhere else.

Fortunately, they all sway to the left!

[barb162]

29. Look at the May 07 home foreclosures and tell me the US

economy is doing well and can accept more immigrants. Many other measures of the economy, epsecially jobs data, tells me this economy already's in bad shape.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2878621

[EFerrari]

31. Why would multinational corporations care if this country

can "accept" immigrants or not -- any more than they care if the home governments of immigrants treat them well, starve them or sell them out?

Reality check: our government is now treating us the same way. It's not about immigration. It's about multinational corporations taking what they want and screwing everyone else.

[barb162]

35. The multinationals don't give a flying f--k about the US.

And until this President and Congress stop joining up with the multinationals telling us "offshoring is good" I think this country is fucked. If jobs keep going somewhere else and jobs are given to immigrants at very low wages, American citizens are getting fucked too. That's the reality check.

[EFerrari]

36. And that would be the United States view.

The larger frame is, if you do your best to make sure democracy is shut down in Latin America and the people there are fucked over by US backed governments that screw their people while they collaborate with multinationals, then it's just silly to blame the starving people who come north to feed their families.

Get your own government under control before you go off on the victims of your own government.

[barb162]

39. I think this government should be under control

and so should its borders. I think allowing illegal immigrants in like we have been shows this country has had nothing under control for a long time and it's affecting the US economy very badly. If we are in so much control of countries south, how did Chavez get elected? I don't have to worry about victims of other governments as there are quite enough victims here, called the unemployed and the uninsured citizens of the USA. Citizens of other countries should act on the inequities of their own governments.

[EFerrari]

41. This country was founded on a genocide and built by slavery

and now you're worried about "illegal" immigration? That seems sort of unreasonable to me unless your last name is Red Cloud.

The CIA tried to take Chavez out in 2002 in case you didn't know, but the people didn't go for it. Why was he elected? Mostly because the US has been pre-occupied in the Middle East and hasn't been paying so much attention to what has been happening in the Americas.

We have a LOT to learn from Latin America in the way of holding our government to account. Starting with Mexico the last time BushCo helped steal their election.

[barb162]

49. DO you think the native peoples here weren't genociding each other

and enslaving each other? Do you think that kind of thing wasn't happening on every continent a few hundred years ago?
Oh and actually I have been worried a long time about illegal immigration because I believe in an orderly application process where people apply for immigration. I believe countries have the right to secure borders.

[EFerrari]

50. No, Native Americans were not perpetuating genocide on

each other.

And that suggestion, which seeks to soften genocide, is disgusting.

[gravity]

52. The Aztecs were a violent group of people

Most civilizations in our history have had a violent past. It's not just unique to westen culture.

[EFerrari]

53. The Aztecs weren't "western"?

:crazy:

I don't know how to break this to you guys but my people have always been here and we're not going away.

This was not a vast empty continent when it was invaded and our same people are still trying to live and feed their families now just as they did then.

[pampango]

64. Your "people" have been on this continent for the past 14 thousand

years or so - not "always". Your people were simply the first immigrants - Asians who were not satisfied with life in Asia. We are all immigrants except for the people that live in that small part of Africa where humans evolved.

The "I got here first and you are not welcome" is the same theme that those against immigration now use.

[EFerrari]

66. But I didn't say "and you're not welcome". That's a Northern

European expression, not an American one.

And as you well know, native people have their own story about how they got here.

[Zookeeper]

56. Pat, I'm not sure about your part of the world, but....

in the North and Eastern U.S., native tribes did go to war with each other over territory and, at least until Europeans showed up, certainly didn't have a sense of "solidarity" with competing tribes. I would never claim that genocide was NEVER involved, we don't know that.

I doubt that your native ancestors would have given a friendly welcome to my Cherokee ancestors if they had intruded on their community, or visa versa.

There is a lot of romance involved in the suggestion that Aztecs (for instance) are the same people as the First Nation tribes of Canada. If we are going to go there, then we have to include Siberians because they supposedly crossed the Bering land bridge.

All we can really work with is what we have NOW, which is a continent with sovereign nations with laws and borders.

( :hi: )

[EFerrari]

57. I agree about living now but no, native peoples did not engage

in genocide.

[Zookeeper]

61. Apparently they did in the Great Lakes and Eastern region...

"The Eriez (also Erielhonan, Eriez, Nation du Chat) were an Iroquoian pre and early historic group of Native Americans, who lived from western New York to northern Ohio on the south shore of Lake Erie. They were ultimately destroyed by the Iroquois, who adopted some of the survivors into their own group, these being primarily absorbed into the Senecas."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erie_%28tribe%29

Iroquois Wars I
Extracts from the Jesuit Relations and Primary Sources 1535–1650

"...the Five Nations of the Iroquois (the Mohawks, Oneidas, Onondagas, Cayugas, and Senecas) subjugated, destroyed, and absorbed enemy tribes stretching over a vast area from eastern Canada to Virginia to Illinois--forever changing the cultural map of eastern North America."

"Iroquois Wars II continues the chronicle of the rise of the Iroquois Confederacy during the “Beaver Wars” of the 17th century, using primary source extracts from the Jesuit Relations. The accounts included in this volume cover the incredible series of victories won by the Iroquois over neighboring tribes following the defeat and collapse of their Huron enemies in 1650. Iroquois war parties fought wide-ranging campaigns against enemy tribes and Europeans alike in practically every state east of the Mississippi. In doing so, they destroyed or displaced dozens of tribes, many of which are known to history by their names alone."

http://www.evolpub.com/ACNA/AnnalsNA.html

------

I can probably find more examples tomorrow, but I'm going to bed now.

[EFerrari]

65. But, by the same logic, so have we all because our forebearers

survived wars.

[Zookeeper]

73. Pat, are you sure you aren't ...

at least part German? You sure are stubborn! :+ (Pot calls kettle black.)

Here is the generally accepted definition of genocide:

"..any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."

– Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, Article II

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide

The history of the Iroquois wiping out the Hurons, Attawandaron, Erie and other tribes so thoroughly exterminated that we don't even know their names, fits the definition of genocide. This disproves your claim that Native people didn't commit genocide against each other. If that doesn't fit the definition of genocide, then the neither does the claim that Europeans committed genocide against the Native people.

Another reference:

"In the competition in the fur trade, the Erie alienated the surrounding tribes by encroaching on their territories. They also angered their eastern neighbors, the League of the Iroquois, by accepting refugees from Huron villages that had been destroyed by the Iroquois......Beginning in the mid-1550s, the Erie and other tribes were in battle with their enemies, the Iroquois. As a result of this war, the tribe no longer existed as a unit, but dispersed groups survived a few more decades before being absorbed into the Iroquois......Members of other tribes also claimed later to be descended from refugees of this defunct culture."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erie_%28tribe%29

[EFerrari]

74. LOL! My maiden name is Degenhardt.

:rofl:

:hi:

Edit: busted by Zookeeper.

[Zookeeper]

75. ......

:spray: :rofl:

:pals:

[EFerrari]

76. I'm so sorry.

:rofl:

[Zookeeper]

77. No worries....

:hi:

[barb162]

78. I think you better read some history of pre-Columbian America

Do you think those Aztec, Inca, etc., altars were used for holding flower displays? They were used for slaughtering captives of other native peoples. What you find disgusting is fact, unfortunately.

Sunday, January 23, 2005 - Page updated at 12:00 A.M.

Pre-Hispanic reports of brutality confirmed

By Mark Stevenson

The Associated Press



MEXICO CITY — It has long been a matter of contention: Was the Aztec and Mayan practice of human sacrifice as widespread and horrifying as the history books say? Or did the Spanish conquerors overstate it to make the Indians look primitive?

In recent years archaeologists have been uncovering mounting physical evidence that corroborates the Spanish accounts in substance, if not number.

Using high-tech forensic tools, archaeologists are proving that pre-Hispanic sacrifices often involved children and a broad array of intentionally brutal killing methods.

snip

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2002158332_sacrifice23.html

[EFerrari]

79. So, our current practices are just dandy because the AP publishes

a skewed report on pre-Columbian (pre-genocide) America?

Okay.

Was there warfare and slavery and violence in those cultures? Of course. But there was nothing like genocide. Nothing like what our own culture has inflicted.

Please.

[barb162]

80. Then check some good history books if you don't believe it.

I've taken the courses; there's nothing skewed there.

Maybe this university does it for you?
snip
Some ceremonies demanded the living heart of a victim, in which case the victim was held down by the four chacs at the top of a pyramid or raised platform while the nacon made an incision below the rib cage and ripped out the heart with his hands. The heart was then burned in order to nourish the gods.

http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/CIVAMRCA/MAYAS.HTM

OR THIS UNIVERSITY:
Under the leadership of Montezuma and others before him, sacrifice became a key element in their ritual and worship to many gods. The Aztecs were constantly at "war" with neighboring tribes and groups. The goal of this constant warfare was to collect live prisoners for sacrifice. The Flowery Wars began with a mutual agreement between the Aztecs and the Tlaxcalans to capture live men for future sacrifice (Meyers & Sherman:65).
http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/prehistory/latinamerica/topics/human_scacrifice.html

[LostInAnomie]

32. I thought you meant by giving serious prison terms to illegal employers...

... or by dismantling our programs that encourage Globalism.

[Jim Warren]

33. Too late

Too late for the working class of both countries.

You are just not getting it yet are you?

The plan is to turn this country into a banana republic. The new world order is upon us and for a preview go to almost any country in Central America for the ultimate expression of Republicanism.

[kath]

34. The US has been propping up (or even putting in place) corrupt govts. in Mexico and Central America

for DECADES - it'd be an awful tough habit to break...

[EFerrari]

38. Since the beginning. n/t

[Cleita]

40. You'd have to have regime change first in many countries.

We used to give foreign aid for development to Latin American countries in exchange for those governments looking the other way while we exploited their resources. The powerful lined their pockets and Swiss bank accounts with the aid and none of it trickled down to the poor or was used for the development that we the gullible American tax payers were told that it was supposed to be used for.

Of course our government was just as complicit because we knew we were propping up corrupt dictatorships. What we need to do is butt out of the business of countries trying to help their poor and stop backing the corrupt regimes that allow us to exploit them. We should start with Mexico. We can force them to change their labor laws like a minimum wage law that is competitive with ours and other social programs for the poor so that they too can realize the American dream in their own country. Of course we are going to have to make enemies with the five controlling rich families of Mexico because they will be pissed.

[jobendorfer]

42. We have 3 options in front of us

If you accept the premise that the cause of illegal immigration is the economic differential between the U.S., Mexico, and the rest of Latin America, then I think you have three options:

1. Spend a lot of money to build a wall to keep the immigrants out;
2. Open up the borders and spend a lot of money to assimilate the immigrants;
3. Spend a lot of money on a Marshall-style plan to reduce the economic differential, and consequently, the desire to immigrate here.

Of the three options, I believe that only the third will lead to long-term peace and stability.
If people in Latin America have disposable income ... we have a basis for equitable trade.
Of course, we don't do that *here*, so I'm probably hoping for too much.

First post in god knows how long, back to head down and in the books.

J.

[Cleita]

44. To do the Marshall Plan you have to make sure that the

corrupt ruling classes don't get their hands on the money or it will be another money pit with no results.

[gravity]

46. Easier said than done

There have been efforts to bring economic progress to developing nations for decades, and it was met with only mixed success.

[EFerrari]

48. Because those "efforts" were window dressing and not actual efforts.

Why in the world does the United States believe they know what's best? It's simply cover for corporate abuse.

[gravity]

51. There have been many efforts by well intentioned individuals

but most have failed for many reasons, which I don't feel like getting into right now because it isn't that simple (and I'm tired and want to go to bed:)).

If you want to read up about it, check this site on development economics.
http://faculty.oxy.edu/gsecondi/dev.html

If there was an easy solution to the problem, we would have done it 50 years ago.

[EFerrari]

54. And why in the world would our solution be better?

[gravity]

68. That's why I said it's easier said than done

The only advantage our solution or any other solution today, is that we can learn from past mistakes, but there are no guarantees with that either.

[EFerrari]

69. I guess I've been cranky, gravity, because it seems as though

we tend to consider Latin American countries as if they are our tenants and not sovereign countries with their own processes. Sorry about that!

[TahitiNut]

55. I gotta wonder whether the number of illegal aliens from Venezuela has gone down.

I suspect they have ... and perhaps it's no accident that the corporatists want to reverse that situation for the same reasons fewer folks are going elsewhere.

I do believe that we've interfered with the poltical processes in Latin America in ways that INCREASE the income inequities and keep people impoverished. That's why I believe that an essential element of any 'solution' is to exert pressure on those goverments from which people are fleeing to take agressive steps toward economic equity and uniform political enfrancisement.

[Zookeeper]

58. I've long thought that a "Marshall Plan" is the answer....

The sense that I've had from the Mexicans and Central Americans I've met up here in Minnesota, is that they would much rather be "home" if home was a place where they could prosper economically and be relatively safe from corruption. Cold winters, foreign culture (unlike the Southwest) and yet close enough to know that they COULD go home if they chose.

[EFerrari]

59. I don't understand why Americans think they know what is better

for Latin America than Latin America does. Especially in view of the way American corporate interests have wreaked so much havoc there.

A "Marshall Plan"? What about, just stop sabotaging elections and destabilizing progressive governments and when all else fails, stop assassinating guys?

It's a lot like beating up your wife and then complaining that she doesn't look very good. :shrug:

[Zookeeper]

62. Well, your suggestions would be the OBVIOUS first step....

But, do you think economic aid would be unwelcome?

BTW, aren't you an American? Aren't you making a judgment as to what's better for Latin America?

I'm of Scottish and German descent, but I wouldn't presume to know what's best for those countries (at least not ten generations removed).

I'd say it's safe to assume that most DUers already have a reasonably sound understanding of the way the U.S. government and corporations have damaged Latin America. Any arguments I make include that understanding.

[EFerrari]

63. I have a foot in both places, Zookeeper. First generation here

from Central America.

And unlike you, I've noticed that most DUers have very little knowledge of the history of the United States in Latin America. They wonder, for example, why Mexicans don't stay home and fix their country as if that is possible with the full weight of the US government supporting corrupt collaborators -- not only supporting them, but actually making sure they stay in power over the people's choice. And that's just recent history.

[Zookeeper]

71. The question is....

where do we start? Cancel NAFTA? (Ok, by me, BTW.) We can't even loosen the grip of Big Corporations on our own country. We (liberals) couldn't keep this administration from invading Iraq, how would prevent our government from interfering with an election that could put a "leftist" government on or near our southern border?

And if you think DUers are lacking in knowledge of Latin American politics, you don't want to know about the average Joe or Josephine. I don't see massing enough grass-roots support to apply a level of pressure on our government that could be effective.

The burden of change may just fall on the shoulders of the citizens of Mexico and the citizens of Central American countries.

[EFerrari]

72. Well, I'm as average as you can get I think, lol.

(And so, I can't help knowing what I know.)

But the deal is, the US has a long history of manipulating in Latin America. And imho, we have much more in common with the undocumented workers that come here than we do with the corporations that first force them out of their homes and then invite us to vilify them. :shrug:

[DefenseLawyer]

67. Corporate America wants Mexico to remain a 3rd world country

What you are talking about makes sense, but only if the goal is to really change the status quo. None of them really want that. Republican politicians want to whip of racial and cultural fear in their traditionally xenophobic base, but beyond the political expediency of that, they don't really want to "solve" the immigration issue. Corporations want Mexico to remain a third world country (at least in some areas) so that labor intensive manufacturing can be done there with cheap labor and no regulation. At the same time they want a steady flow of illegal workers to provide cheap labor for agriculture, construction and the like. If they really wanted to solve the problem they would actually punish companies that hire undocumented workers and they would cancel NAFTA until Mexico implemented a enforced minimum wage and other labor regulations. But guess what? They won't.

[EFerrari]

70. Exactly. And multiply that by the rest of the Latin American "reservation".

At some point, we've got to figure out that immigrants, legal or illegal, are here in part because the US government aids and abets the multinationals that makes the immigrants' country of origin UNLIVABLE.