They hate us for our Porn

[brettdale]

cnn.com

Iran to Execute Porn Stars

TEHRAN, Iran (AP) -- Iran's parliament on Wednesday voted in favor of a bill that could lead to the death penalty for persons convicted of working in the production of pornographic movies.

With a 148-5 vote in favor and four abstentions, lawmakers present at the Wednesday session of the 290-seat parliament approved that "producers of pornographic works and main elements in their production are considered corrupter of the world and could be sentenced to punishment as corrupter of the world."

The term, "corrupter of the world" is taken from the Quran, the Muslims' holy book, and ranks among the highest on the scale of an individual's criminal offenses. Under Iran's Islamic Penal Code, it carries a death penalty.

The "main elements" referred to in the draft include producers, directors, cameramen and actors involved in making a pornographic video.

[Warren DeMontague]

1. We could have done a far better job of toppling totalitarian, theocratic gov'ts in the Middle East

if we had carpet bombed them with High Def TVs, indica weed and Jenna Jameson movies. Open expressions of sexuality, sexual freedom- those are the things MOST threatening to the control-minded religious "authorities"--- in those countries as well as ours.

$400 Billion would pay for a lot of that.

But of course, no one ever listens to me.

[Redneck Socialist]

3. LOL! Shades of Jimmy Buffet

Back in the days of the Cold War part of Jimmy Buffet's concert schtick was a bit about dropping Victoria Secret catalogs and five dollar bills on the Soviet Union. Can't remember what song it was an intro to though. :-(

[Evoman]

27. MIght also provide for a release of some those "middle east tensions"

I think fucked up sexuality is probably at least partially responsible for a lot of the worlds woes, here and abroad. There is a reason a lot of those most angry, war-like, fundamentilists types are found in compromised positions.....

[Warren DeMontague]

34. You said it.

Mass Psychology of Fascism stuff, right there.

[ellisonz]

39. *slowly stands up*

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :patriot:

[LBJDemocrat]

49. Those are also the thing

that keep many American oblivious to the fact they're getting the short end of the stick on economic matters.

Consumerism doesn't threaten "control-minded" authorities. Consumerism is a pacifier.

Edit: This has nothing to do with what I think of the Iranian regime that imprisons journalists. In any case, there's plenty of underground pornography over there according to several Iranian emigres I've met; and prostitution is basically legal.

[StudentsMustUniteNow]

56. Right on...and also...

If we dropped porn on those countries, we'd be accused of corrupting their values which would lower our standing and increase the fury against us.

[Warren DeMontague]

83. Really? More so than dropping bombs?

I'd take that chance. Frankly, I think all would-be authoritarian control freaks are in particular terrified of sexual freedom and free expressions of sexuality; as soon as people start making their own decisions, it undermines all their "plans" for how society ought to be.

[Chulanowa]

2. It's a shame, too

I mean what with the booming market for Iranian porn, and all...

*Snicker*

But really, the death penalty? It's good to keep in mind that these are the exact laws the right wants to see in America.

[Psephos]

11. No offense, but the right doesn't seek the death penalty for porn in the US

They're bigger porn customers than the left, anyway.

[Chulanowa]

38. Give them an inch...

And it's perfectly okay for them to watch porn, just not for you. If I remember right, Jerry Falwell had the largest pornography library in the United States... "for research"...

[Psephos]

42. Heh heh, sounds like the "research" Pete Townshend was doing n/t

[Clark2008]

92. Actually, he was.

And he turned what he found over to the police, but they didn't bother with it for three years and then decided to arrest him. After which, they found no evidence of ANYTHING on ANY of his 13 computers.

I helped work on that PR campaign, so I know from which I speak. The man didn't do a thing wrong other than he let his curiosity get the better of him (stupid move that was illegal, but he didn't do it for kicks).

Read this: http://www.petetownshendisinnocent.com/differentbomb.html

[Psephos]

105. All right, it's worth another look

But it still strikes me as hopelessly dumb, even if an innocent act.

Meanwhile, I do love his music.

[krispos42]

55. I bet Ted Haggert has it now!

and BTW he's still 100% straight.

[William769]

4. The would really hate me for my porn!

:evilgrin:

[DBoon]

5. so the post-production staff would only serve prison?

nt

[msongs]

6. the way they treat their women is the true porn of the world nt

[Psephos]

12. Well said n/t

[Bucky]

54. Etymology of the word "pornography" has its roots in slavery, not sex

While Wiki says the word pornography means "a place for writing about prostitutes", the Greek word porne actually has its roots in the verb pernemi, meaning "to sell" and used in reference to slaves, not conqubines. Thus one core meaning of pornography is the depiction of slavery.

In this light, you're correct, the real pornography is the denigration and exploitation of women, whether they're clad in bikinis or burkas.

[DemoTex]

7. What's that web address?

Deputy Travis Junior (Reno 911) is itching to know!

[pork medley]

8. i see laissez faire ideology is what prevails here largely

no surprise. a consistent emphasis on "individual freedom" permits just about every form of exploitation, the mighty and the weak operate on a level playing field of mutual exchange. prostitution? a wonderful concept, the free market in full force! consumer capitalism? a hallmark of civilization! at last every target market can realize itself and reap the benefits of a morally bankrupt culture! slavery? well hey, we all face choices in life, and some of us choose to become slaves! it's really that simple

[Jonathan50]

9. Strange rant..

If the only thing a person has going for them is their sexual attractiveness why should they not be allowed to use that to make an honest living?

I would far rather live next to an honest prostitute than a dishonest preacher.

[pork medley]

10. thank you for proving my point n/t

[Warren DeMontague]

15. Which point is that?

the point that anyone who posts "thank you for proving my point" as a knee-jerk response doesn't have an actual, valid point to begin with?

[Warren DeMontague]

14. Uh, when it comes to consenting adults deciding what to do with their own bodies

you're damn right. It's not anyone else's business.

Are you defending the Theocratic nutjobs in Iran who are putting folks to death for taking pictures of adults fucking? Or just the Theocratic nutjobs in this country who want to ban it here?

Please define "exploitation". Is anyone who makes a choice you, personally, don't approve of being "exploited"?

And slavery? Wow. You win today's




award for that one!

Everyone knows damn well the slaves in this country didn't volunteer for it.

The bottom line is, many would-be control freaks want to be able to play God and determine which choices consenting adults should be able to make about their own bodies and lives for them, but all too often they don't feel like, or up to, articulating a cogent defense for the idea that they, personally, should get to sit on the throne of absolute moral arbitration over everyone else-

-so invariably, some version of non-consent or the like has to be manufactured to justify the censorship/control agenda. Namely, those people who are making this choice I don't approve of obviously must not know what they're doing, even though to all appearances they seem to be adults with free will... the fact that they are doing something I don't like means they must be "exploited" or somehow otherwise hyp-mo-tized into doing these things against their will.

You see the same arguments from the would-be porn censors as you see from the would-be abortion criminalizers; women who make these choices they find morally reprehensible become infantilized, "victimized" by the evil "industry" which magically removes their ability to make their own decisions about their own bodies.

It's a crock. Nice try.

[pork medley]

17. yes i'm defending theocratic nutjobs

there's no difference between "protecting women from control over their own bodies" and the "right" to reduce one's body/sexuality into a commodity after all. what exactly are you arguing for here? the commodification of human sexuality? the RED HERRING of abortion rights?

[Warren DeMontague]

18. No, I am arguing for the right of consenting adults to do what they damn well please

with their own bodies.

If that means choosing to have sex in front of a camera so other consenting adults can pay to watch them screw, then that's what that means. If you don't want to get paid for screwing in front of a camera, that's your business. Who are you to decide that someone else shouldn't be allowed to "reduce" (your words, again, a value judgment) their OWN sexuality- something that, again, doesn't belong to YOU- to a commodity?

Some porn stars make quite a bit of money. If they prefer that to a job with a paper hat, whose business of yours is it to tell them they can't?

[pork medley]

20. what you are arguing for is the anarchy of power

the triumph of money & influence in other words

you clearly have no respect for women. but if it's not too rude of me to ask: don't you have a mother, or a sister, or any female relative?

[Warren DeMontague]

30. No, what I am arguing is for the right of people to control THEIR OWN bodies.

You seem to be having a little trouble with the reading comprehension. Want me to say it in Spanish? French?

I have plenty of women in my family. I'm married to one, Jack. The ones who are ADULTS can make their own decisions about what they want to do with their own bodies and lives. I really don't grasp why my unwillingness to dictate what everyone else should be allowed to do translates into "no respect" for them. If anything, it's the other way around.

What is it, precisely, about two nude adults having sex that you consider so "dirty" or "not respectable" that you can't fathom why so many wouldn't have a problem with pictures of it? If it's not "too rude" of me to ask, have you considered talking to someone about your feelings around this?

You clearly have no respect for the ability of other people to make up their own damn minds about their own bodies and lives.

[pork medley]

36. you are trying to frame this as something prurient

which it isnt. this is about exploitation, and pornography and prostitution are inherently exploitive. if you wish to argue that it is a person's natural right to sell him/herself, whatever. i'm not going to waste my time or yours any further

your rationalization of social injustice is disgusting :)

[Warren DeMontague]

43. "Social Injustice"="People being able to make their own damn choices"

Why don't you go find some porn stars and lecture them about how they are being unjustly exploited. Tell them how they don't have the brains in their head to make consenting choices about what they do- they need you to be personally in charge of making all their decisions for them.

Your rationalization of your desire to impose your personal morality on others... is it "disgusting"? No, it's sadly typical on a planet with so many authoritarian, self-righteous control freaks full of moral certitude from all "ends" of the political spectrum.

[Dorian Gray]

107. Sadly

I've been to places where the sex industry has very little "choice" attached to it. Vietnam, Hong Kong, Macau, The Philippines, Thailand. Many of the women that I met involved in the sex trade were compelled into service, if not forced to some extend to remain in their jobs.

It's not always about choice, and the fact that the sex "industry" allows so much abuse world-wide, well... I feel really uncomfortable supporting the few Jenna Jamesons out there who have become rich entrepreneurs when so many others really have no choice. Most women involved in the worldwide sex market are compelled to be there. There is no choice.

[SarahB]

40. What about gay porn?

What about lesbian porn (I'm talking erotica produced by and for women)?

Not all porn surrounds the dynamics and heterosexual relationships and to reduce it to such and to use the same arguments insinuating women are victims of a paternalistic, misogynist society such is hetero-centric.

[Warren DeMontague]

44. You'll never get an answer, because it doesn't fit into the narrative.

Bleh. Would-be nanny statists, whether they be self-proclaimed "progressives" or just plain old puritans--- suck.

[LBJDemocrat]

53. "nanny statists"?

Smells like libertarianism.

[Warren DeMontague]

77. That's right. On the concept that consenting adults should be free to do damn well what they please

with their own bodies, and that they should be free to view or watch or read or get off on materials involving other consenting adults in the privacy of their own homes?

You're damn right, on the subjects of personal rights, individual freedom, the right of citizens to control their own bodies, and being against censorship--- I tend towards "libertarianism". :o

[The Magistrate]

19. If You Could Clarify, Sir

Exactly what collective restrictions do you wish to see imposed on the sexual behavior of individuals? How do feel they should be enforced against those who violate them??

[pork medley]

21. i'm not an advocate of censorship

but i dont like seeing women or men objectified, and i dont like seeing sex turned into another item for profit. and i dont think that commercial culture is something that's brought out our essential humanity, i dont think that it has helped us learned to relate to or love one another

[The Magistrate]

25. Do You Imagine, Sir, The Mullahs Object To The Objectification Of Women And Men?

Killing people, after all, certainly turns them into objects, items generally refered to as corpses....

There is hardly any question of sex being 'turned into another item for profit', as it is something people have been profiting by one way or other as long as we have been on the planet: there is nothing new about it. Some might even say it is part of our essential humanity --- most people who employ that phrase as suggesting something different from actual social and cultural arrangements seem to take for granted that what humans have been doing for millenia is wholly un-natural, though why they do this escapes me completely. What has persisted through great spans of time and in many unconnected places has, it seems to me, an excellent claim to be regarded as natural.

But you are rather back-tracking from your initial position, which was to decry individual choices concerning sexual behavior, in a context that clearly implied you felt some collective guidance was to be prefered to that anarchic or libertarian spirit....

[pork medley]

28. ha! i didn't know this was an option between defending

iranian reactionism and good old fashioned sex sales

if something's gone on for long enough, that clearly makes it morally acceptable, yes?

[The Magistrate]

29. Who Said Anything About Moral Acceptability, Sir?

That is quite outside my line....

So it would be fair to conclude, then, that the real basis of your distress over pornography, objectification, etc., and the whole spectacle of people behaving as they chose in sexual matters, is that you find a great deal of the sexual behaviors they choose to engage in offends your personal sense of morality?

[pork medley]

35. "pornography, objectification, etc., and the whole spectacle of people behaving as they chose

in sexual matters"

quit trying to cast me as a prude, because i'm not. i do not think sex is filthy/abhorrent. i think it is, between consenting adults, a nice thing. you are trying to put words in my mouth, maybe you're projecting?

[The Magistrate]

45. You Staked Your Ground, Sir

If it proves poorly chosen, you have only yourself to thank.

You commenced by expressing support for clerics urging the death penalty for participants in producing pornography, and did so on the grounds that individuals choosing their own sexual behaviors was liscence rather than liberty, and that some collective regulation of their behavior ought to prevent them doing so in manners of which you personally disapprove, and disapprove of, apparently, it develops, on moral grounds, whatever these might be, in sexual behavior, and in your particular case.

[H2O Man]

100. Checkmate n/t

[pork medley]

110. ah

>You commenced by expressing support for clerics urging the death penalty for participants in producing >pornography, and did so on the grounds that individuals choosing their own sexual behaviors was >liscence rather than liberty, and that some collective regulation of their behavior ought to prevent >them doing so in manners of which you personally disapprove, and disapprove of, apparently, it >develops, on moral grounds, whatever these might be, in sexual behavior, and in your particular case

wow, that's a loaded case. and simply untrue. i argued that pornography, at least as we in the west encounter it, is little more than legalized prostitution - in fact that's what it is basically. it certainly isnt an honest representation of human sexuality. if you want to produce pornography on your own, ok! share it with someone you love! but if you insist on paying other people to have sex for you while you watch, that is necessarily exploitive

and also, choice has everything to do w/ context, and the limited choices forced upon us

[The Magistrate]

113. Again, Sir, You Chose The Ground You Would Fight On

And it has been fairly represented in my summary:

You commenced by expressing support for clerics urging the death penalty for participants in producing pornography, and did so on the grounds that individuals choosing their own sexual behaviors was liscence rather than liberty, and that some collective regulation of their behavior ought to prevent them doing so in manners of which you personally disapprove, and disapprove of, apparently, it develops, on moral grounds, whatever these might be, in sexual behavior, and in your particular case.

Your attempts at shifting from this only mire you deeper, because they make it painfully obvious you have never given much serious thought to the subject, whether on the limited ground of pornography, the broader ground of prostitution, or the entire phenomenon of human sexuality. You are working from wholly unexamined assumptions, which never leads to any good result or sound argument. You do not like people making a living by their sexuality: that is the root of all you have urged here. Why you do not like this escapes me, and is not worth my speculating over. People make livings by a variety of personal qualities: nerve and fine control of posture and expression, aptness at figures, excellent memory, a sense of what other people will do before they know themselves, a glib tongue, physical strength, ruthlessness and disregard, inventiveness, empathy, and a good deal more. Why sexuality should be ruled off this list is unclear to me, as it is simply a personal quality no different to my view from any of the rest, and the various forms in which sex is performed different in no intrinsic way from any other activity humans engage in. It is true most people feel some compelling urge to engage in sexual activity in some form or another, and often feel they have little control over this urge, which makes it somewhat frightening to a number of people, by upsetting the feeling they are in conscious charge of themselves, and it is probably this that accounts for much of the attempt to wall sexuality off by various taboos that mark human societies. But there is no great uniformity in these taboos across a range of cultures and societies, either in the forms they take or in the reasons claimed to be their basis and the ground on which their binding nature rests, which demonstrates the essential artificialness and basic un-naturalness of them all, for if they were natural outgrowths of something inherent to the beast, they would be at least as uniform as physical aspect is within the species.

Among your wholly unexamined assumptions is that there is some essential wrongness to the exchange of sex for goods and services, dubbed in our culture prostitution. But there have been any number of societies in which this has been wholly acceptable behavior, sometimes even with a sacred component. There are a number of Western societies in which prostitution is fully legal, to the point of being unionized. A standard feminist critique of marriage in Western society regards it as differing in no essential way from prostitution, save that the wife has only a single customer. 'Taking your best gal out for dinner and a show' differs in no essential way from payment for favors later in the evening, though everyone involved generally pretends it does, and the money goes into different pockets than her's. Payment, Sir, can range from scratching her back to making her giggle: there are many, many more things than money that are exchanged.

Another of your unexamined assumptions is that it is the seller, and not the customer, that is exploited in various commercial sexual fields. The customer certainly has a claim to be regarded as the object of exploitation, for the customer gives up a payment, in return for very little, particularly in the case of a customer for pornography or a strip-tease. What is purchased is barely a sniff at the cork, when what is really desired is a couple of stiff pulls at the bottle at least, and even the efficacy of the thing paid for is mostly provided by the customer, in the form of imagination building on the actual experience. The performer actually gives up very little in time and energy, in comparison to the recompense: a few hours on the set can be bringing in income for many months; a hour or so of aerobic gyrations can bring in a good deal. It has often struck me that this may be the basis of a good deal of the reflexive dislike of such activity many display; they view it as too damn easy, and resent people getting over by it, the same way professional people often resent the prices commanded by tradespeople like plumbers and electricians and housepainters....

[pork medley]

114. can i quote something to you by someone else? if not, kindly disgregard it . . .

Fish in water. – Since the comprehensive apparatus of distribution of highly concentrated industry has dissolved the circulation-sphere, this latter begins an astonishing post-existence. While the economic basis for the occupation of go-betweens disappears, the private life of innumerable people becomes that of agents and go-betweens, indeed the realm of the private is wholly swallowed up by a mysterious enterprise , which bears all the marks of the commercial kind, only in a situation where nothing is really being done. Those who are afraid, from the unemployed to professionals who in the next moment may come to feel the wrath of those whose investments they represent, believe they can win over the ubiquitous company executive only through sensitivity, assiduousness, accessibility, by one way or another, through the qualities of traders, and soon there is no relationship which is not seen in terms of other relationships, no impulse which is not subjected to prior censorship, in order not to deviate from approval. The concept of relationships, a category of mediation and circulation, never prospered best in the actual circulation-sphere, in the market, but in closed, monopoly-like hierarchies. Now that the entire society is becoming hierarchal, opaque relationships adhere everywhere, wherever there was still the appearance of freedom. The irrationality of the system is expressed not less in the economic fate of particular individuals than in the parasitic psychology of such. Earlier, when there was still something like the disreputable bourgeois separation of occupation and private life, whose passing one would almost like to regret, whoever pursued goals in their private life was eyed with distrust, as a loutish gatecrasher. Today whoever engages in something private, which does not have a discernible goal, appears as arrogant, foreign and improper. Whoever isn’t “out” for something is almost suspect: no-one trusts anyone else to help them get by, without legitimating themselves through counter-claims. Myriads of people make their living out of a condition, which follows the liquidation of occupations. These are the nice people, the popular ones, who are friends with all, the just ones, who excuse every sort of meanness as “human” and incorruptibly defame every non-normalized impulse as “sentimental” . They are indispensable thanks to their knowledge of all the channels and back doors of power, they guess its most secret judgments and live off the dexterous communication of such. They are to be found in all political camps, even there, where the rejection of the system is taken for granted and for that reason a lax and cunning conformism of its own has developed. Often they win over people through a certain benevolence, through the sympathetic sharing of the life of others: selflessness as speculation. They are clever, witty, sensible and flexible; they have polished the old trader-spirit with the achievements of the day-before-yesterday’s psychology. They are ready for anything, even love, yet always faithlessly. They betray not from instinctual drives, but from principle: they value even themselves as a profit, which they do not wish to share with anyone else. They are bound to the Spirit with affinity and hate: they are a temptation for the thoughtful, but also their worst enemies. For they are the ones who subtly apprehend and despoil the last hiding-places of resistance, the hours which remain free from the demands of the machinery. Their belated individualism poisons what still remains of the individuated .

4
Final clarity. – The newspaper obituary for a businessman once read: “The breadth of his conscience competed with the goodness of his heart.” The lapse committed by the mourners in the rarefied, elevated language called for at such times, the involuntary admission that the kind-hearted deceased was devoid of a conscience, expedites the funeral procession on the shortest path to the land of truth. When a man of advanced age becomes famous for being especially benign , one can presume that his life represented a series of scandals. He has gotten used to outrage. The broad conscience passes itself off as greatness of mind , which forgives everything, because it understands it all too well. A quid pro quo steps between one’s own guilt and that of others, which is resolved in favor of whoever got the best of the deal. After such a long life, one just can’t distinguish who did what to whom. In the abstract representation of universal injustice, every concrete responsibility collapses. The scoundrel twists it around, as if he experienced it himself: if you only knew, young man, what life is really like. Those however who are already distinguished in the middle of life by special benevolence, are usually drawing an advance on such benignity . Whoever is not evil, does not live benignly , but in a peculiarly bashful manner, hardened and intolerant. Due to a lack of appropriate objects, the latter hardly knows any other expression of their love than the hatred of inappropriate ones, through which they admittedly come to resemble what they hate. The bourgeoisie however is tolerant. Their love for people, as they are, originates in the hatred of rightful human beings.

5
Doctor, that is kind of you. – Nothing is harmless anymore. The small joys, the expressions of life, which seemed to be exempt from the responsibility of thought, not only have a moment of defiant silliness, of the cold-hearted turning of a blind eye, but immediately enter the service of their most extreme opposite. Even the tree which blooms, lies, the moment that one perceives its bloom without the shadow of horror; even the innocent “How beautiful” becomes an excuse for the ignominy of existence, which is otherwise, and there is no longer any beauty or any consolation, except in the gaze which goes straight to the horror, withstands it, and in the undiminished consciousness of negativity, holds fast to the possibility of that which is better. Mistrust is advisable towards everything which is unselfconscious, casual, towards everything which involves letting go, implying indulgence towards the supremacy of the existent . The malign deeper meaning of comfort, which at one time was limited to the toasts of cozy sociability, has long since spread to friendlier impulses. When in the chance conversation with a man on the train, one acquiesces, in order to avoid a quarrel, to a couple of sentences which one knows ultimately certify murder, is already an act of treachery; no thought is immune against its communication, and uttering it at the wrong place and in the context of a false agreement is enough to undercut its truth. Every visit to the cinema, despite the utmost watchfulness, leaves me dumber and worse than before. Sociability itself is a participant in injustice, insofar as it pretends we can still talk with each other in a frozen world, and the flippant, chummy word contributes to the perpetuation of silence, insofar as the concessions to those being addressed debase the latter once more as speakers. The evil principle which has always lurked in affability develops, in the egalitarian Spirit , into its full bestiality. Condescension and making oneself out as no better are the same. By adapting to the weaknesses of the oppressed, one confirms in such weaknesses the prerequisite of domination, and develops in oneself the measure of barbarity, thickheadedness and capacity to inflict violence required to exercise domination. If, in the latest era, the gesture of condescension is dispensed with, and solely adaptation becomes visible, then it is precisely in such a perfect screening of power that the class-relationship, however denied, breaks through all the more irreconcilably. For intellectuals, unswerving isolation is the only form in which they can vouchsafe a measure of solidarity. All of the playing along, all of the humanity of interaction and participation is the mere mask of the tacit acceptance of inhumanity. One should be united with the suffering of human beings: the smallest step to their joys is one towards the hardening of suffering.

6
Antithesis. – For those who do not play along, there exists the danger of considering themselves better than others and misusing their critique of society as an ideology for their own private interest. While feeling their way towards making their own existence into the flickering picture of the right one, they should remain aware of its insubstantiality and know how little the picture can replace the right life. Such considerations however contradict the gravitational force of what is bourgeois within them. Those who are at a distance are as entangled as those who are actively engaged; the former have nothing over the latter, except the insight into their entanglement and the happiness of the tiny freedom, which lies in the recognition as such. Their own distance from business as usual is a luxury, solely spun off by that business as usual. That is why every impulse towards self-withdrawal bears the marks of what is negated. The coldness which it must develop is not to be separated from the bourgeois one. In the monadological principle, even where it protests, lurks the ruling generality. Proust’s observation, that the photographs of the grandfathers of a duke and a Jew from the entrepreneurial class look so similar, that no-one thinks of the social ranking order, strikes at a far more comprehensive state of affairs : all of those differences which comprised the happiness, indeed the moral substance, of individual existence, objectively disappear behind the unity of the epoch. We detect the decay of education, and yet our prose, measured against Jacob Grimm or Bachofen, has phraseologies in common with the culture-industry which we did not suspect. Moreover we no longer know Greek or Latin like Wolf or Kirchhoff. We point out the transition of civilization into analphabetism and ourselves forget to write letters or to read a text of Jean Paul, as it must have been read in his time. We abhor the coarsening of life, but the absence of any objectively binding common decency compels us at every step into modes of conduct, speech and calculation which are barbaric, measured by humane standards, and tactless, even by the dubious standards of the good society. With the dissolution of liberalism, the authentic bourgeois principle, that of competition, was not overcome, but passed over from the objectivity of social processes into the composition of pushing and shoving atoms – into anthropology, as it were. The subjugation of life to the production-process degradingly inflicts something of that isolation and loneliness on every single person, which we are tempted to consider the matter of our superior choice. The notion that every single person considers themselves better in their particular interest than all others, is as long-standing a piece of bourgeois ideology as the overestimation of others as higher than oneself, just because they are the community of all customers. Since the old bourgeois class has abdicated, both lead their afterlife in the Spirit of intellectuals, who are at the same time the last enemies of the bourgeois, and the last bourgeois. By allowing themselves to still think at all vis-a-vis the naked reproduction of existence, they behave as the privileged; by leaving things in thought, they declare the nullity of their privilege. The private existence, which yearns to look like one worthy of human beings, simultaneously betrays the latter, because the similarity of the general implementation is withdrawn, which more than ever before requires an independent sensibility . There is no exit from the entanglement. The only responsible option is to deny oneself the ideological misuse of one’s own existence, and as for the rest, to behave in private as modestly, inconspicuously and unpretentiously as required, not for reasons of good upbringing, but because of the shame that when one is in hell, there is still air to breathe.

(theodor adorno - minima moralia)

[The Magistrate]

116. He Seems Vaguely Unhappy, Sir

Disappointed not to be the leading light and setter of the tone and trend, as he thinks he ought to be, and that if he had his rights he would be. In Edwardian times, he would have been dubbed a neurasthenic, and spent a great deal of time at recuperative spas, if his budget were adequate. It probably was: it takes a great deal of leisure to come up with that sort of verbal jungle, and leisure requires money gained with little effort on one's own part, which necessarily places those possessed of it in abundance squarely in the exploiting classes of society. The pamphleteering Marxist professor and the chairman of the board have more in common, actually, than either cares to ever admit.

Noteably absent from the thing, unfortunately, is any comment touching sensibly on the subject we are discussing, namely elements of individual human sexuality, the fact that some people gain their livings by it, and your distaste for that, a distaste so extreme that you were willing to weigh in and state you supported the view of reactionary and obscurantist Iranan clerics that people involved in pornography ought to be executed as corruptors of the world....

"You cannot expect a boy to be truely corrupt unless he has been to a good school."

[pork medley]

123. .

- doesnt he seem unhappy? very nice of you to resort to ad hominems

- this had everything to do w/ my criticism of the absorption of human sexuality into consumer culture, or else you didnt actually read what i posted and . . .

- again, please stop misrepresenting my views; i have repeatedly stated that i am no advocate of censorship, simply an opponent of exploitation in any form (even if its a popular one here, such as the sex trade) as well as the cheapening of human intimacy. feel free to reduce that to an emotional appeal

- this is getting boring

[The Magistrate]

127. Nonsense, Mr. Batwing

The mental life of any philosopher is relevant to his productions, and a man who counted Mr. Beckett among his friends can hardly be regarded as a cheerful sort: my personal indice of truely black depression is sitting down to read 'Malone Dies' for the umpteenth time....

What you seem to miss, in this sideline you try and raise about 'absorption into consumer culture', is that the phenomenon is not a new one, but one that has marked all of human existance: the only thing different in the modern era is the ease of creating and disseminating images people have always created and desired to view.

Your views have not been mis-represented: you stated you were defending the actions of the clerics, and that establishes basic elements undergirding your efforts here, quite defiitely.

[pork medley]

137. no, that was an ad hom, referring to him as just another bitter marxist

and now youre attacking samuel beckett? you stand on the shoulders of giants, "sir"

oh well, i dont care. my views HAVE been misrepresented. i did not state that "i am defending the actions of the clerics" or that i advocate the death penalty for producers of pornography, but i would prefer if good old american sexploitation werent exported around the world, because it is disgraceful and you are either naive, disingenuous, or hopelessly cynical if you think the actors enter such an industry of their own will. if not wanting jenna-jameson-big-screen-tvs dropped into iran automatically makes me a fascist pig or whatever, call me a fascist pig

- this is boring

- don't expect any further replies

[Mythsaje]

32. Exploitation flies all directions

near as I can tell.

Women (and some men) sell sex, while others (men and women) sell labor (mental and physical) in order to have the money to buy it. Sex is already a commodity, and has been for a long, long time. Men and women marry for money--trading sex for financial security.

I am acquainted with an awful lot of romance authors and readers (primarily women) and they spend a LOT of money on erotica and what is trademarked as "Romantica." It's another kind of porn. Rather than two people fucking on camera, you have one person coming up with sex scenes and writing them out for others to enjoy. Is that exploitation?

It's the fastest growing and most profitable trend in fiction right now. And the consumers are primarily female. The men in these novels are bad boys--vampires, shapeshifters, and the ilk, often times, and they are possessed of qualities most real men do not have.

Sexuality is a weird goddamn subject, and I'm very hesitant to pass judgement on anyone for anything as long as it involves consenting adults.

Besides, I'm reminded of something George Carlin had to say about. "Ever notice that the people who dislike porn the most are people you wouldn't want to fuck in the first place?"

[qdemn7]

26. In as much

Prostitution is as old as humanity, trying to outlaw it is like pissing in the wind.

As for the rest of your statement, there are two type of people in the world:

Those that want other people controlled "for their own good".

Those that want to leave other people alone.

You obviously fall into the first type, and you just prove there is not a shred of difference between a far-left ideologue, and a far-right ideolouge.

Like the old song says, "You mind your own business, you won't be minding mine."

[Warren DeMontague]

33. Did Taj Mahal do that one?

I heard a great version of that song, not too long ago. :thumbsup:

[qdemn7]

37. The original version was by Hank Williams Sr

Mind Your Own Business (1949)

If the wife and I are fussing, brother that's our right
Cause me and that sweet woman's got a license to fight
Why don't you mind your own business, mind your own business
Cause if mind your business, then you won't be minding mine

Oh, the woman on our party line's the nosiest thing
She picks up her receiver when she knows it's my ring
Why don't you mind your own business, mind your own business
Well, if mind your business, then you won't be minding mine

I got a little gal that wears her hair up high
The boys all whistle when she walks by
Why don't you mind your own business, mind your own business
Well, if mind your business, then you sure wont be minding mine

Minding other people's business seems to be high-toned
I got all that I can do just to mind my own
Why don't you mind your own business, mind your own business
If you mind your own business, then you won't be minding mine

I might tell a lot of stories that may not be true
But I can get to Heaven just as easy as you
Why don't you mind your own business, mind your own business
Well, if mind your business, then you won't be minding mine

If I want to honky tonk around till two or three
Now, brother that's my headache, don't you worry about me
Why don't you mind your own business, mind your own business
If mind your business, you'll stay busy all the time.

[kwassa]

46. It ain't nobody's business if I do.

If I should take a notion
To jump into the ocean,
It ain't nobody's business if I do.

If I go to church on Sunday
And I shimmy down on Monday,
It ain't nobody's business if I do.

And if my friend ain't got no money
And I say, "All right, take all of mine honey,"
It ain't nobody's business if I do.

If I lend her my last nickel
And it leaves me in a pickle,
It ain't nobody's business if I do.

I would rather my gal would hit me
Than to haul right up and quit me.
It ain't nobody's business if I do.

I know that she won't call no copper
If she gets beat up by her poppa.
It ain't nobody's business if I do, Lord no.
Well, it ain't nobody's business if I do.

by Porter Grainger and Everett Robbins

[ellisonz]

41. Damn liberals!

:silly:

[LBJDemocrat]

52. THANK YOU%

I mean, come on. We have someone here that thinks America should send high-def TVs with Jenna Jameson videos to Iran. Wtf are these people on?

[StudentsMustUniteNow]

57. You're 100% right batwing

It's a shame that we see this on a PROGRESSIVE forum.

This crass consumerism is how the rich drug the masses.

[name not needed]

109. You know what else is a shame?

Seeing "progressives" defend the execution of people for doing something they don't quite agree with.

Go back to school. You obviously need it.

[pork medley]

111. .

For any consciousness and conscience, for any experience which does not accept the prevailing societal interest as the supreme law of thought and behavior, the established universe of needs and satisfactions is a fact to be questioned - questioned in terms of truth and falsehood. These terms are historical throughout, and their objectivity is historical. The judgment of needs and their satisfaction, under the given conditions, involves standards of priority - standards which refer to the optimal development of the individual, of all individuals, under the optimal utilization of the material and intellectual resources available to man. The resources are calculable. “Truth” and “falsehood” of needs designate objective conditions to the extent to which the universal satisfaction of vital needs and, beyond it, the progressive alleviation of toil and poverty, are universally valid standards. But as historical standards, they do not only vary according to area and stage of development, they also can be defined only in (greater or lesser) contradiction to the prevailing ones. What tribunal can possibly claim the authority of decision?

In the last analysis, the question of what are true and false needs must be answered by the individuals themselves, but only in the last analysis; that is, if and when they are free to give their own answer. As long as they are kept incapable of being autonomous, as long as they are indoctrinated and manipulated (down to their very instincts), their answer to this question cannot be taken as their own. By the same token, however, no tribunal can justly arrogate to itself the right to decide which needs should be developed and satisfied. Any such tribunal is reprehensible, although our revulsion does not do away with the question: how can the people who have been the object of effective and productive domination by themselves create the conditions of freedom?<2>

The more rational, productive, technical, and total the repressive administration of society becomes, the more unimaginable the means and ways by which the administered individuals might break their servitude and seize their own liberation. To be sure, to impose Reason upon an entire society is a paradoxical and scandalous idea - although one might dispute the righteousness of a society which ridicules this idea while making its own population into objects of total administration. All liberation depends on the consciousness of servitude, and the emergence of this consciousness is always hampered by the predominance of needs and satisfactions which, to a great extent, have become the individual's own. The process always replaces one system of pre-conditioning by another; the optimal goal is the replacement of false needs by true ones, the abandonment of repressive satisfaction.

The distinguishing feature of advanced industrial society is its effective suffocation of those needs which demand liberation - liberation also from that which is tolerable and rewarding and comfortable - while it sustains and absolves the destructive power and repressive function of the affluent society. Here, the social controls exact the over. whelming need for the production and consumption of waste; the need for stupefying work where it is no longer a real necessity; the need for modes of relaxation which soothe and prolong this stupefication; the need for maintaining such deceptive liberties as free competition at administered prices, a free press which censors itself, free choice between brands and gadgets.

Under the rule of a repressive whole, liberty can be made into a powerful instrument of domination. The range of choice open to the individual is not the decisive factor in determining the degree of human freedom, but what can be chosen and what is chosen by the individual. The criterion for free choice can never be an absolute one, but neither h it entirely relative. Free election of masters does not abolish the masters or the slaves. Free choice among a wide variety of goods and services does not signify freedom if these goods and services sustain social controls over a life of toil and fear - that is, if they sustain alienation. And the spontaneous reproduction of superimposed needs by the individual does not establish autonomy; it only testifies to the efficacy of the controls.

~ herbert marcuse - One Dimensional Man

[LSK]

13. how credible is this story? Im extremely leary of any stories on Iran

Is it a coincidence that negative stories come out against Iran lately?

Who has what to gain with this story coming out?

[Warren DeMontague]

16. Iran is run by out of control, Theocratic whackos. That's not propaganda, that's fact.

It's a look into the future of this country, if we let our ultra-religious-right loonies keep running the show.

[Hippo_Tron]

23. Yup, Iran has a left wing and a right wing just like we do

The only difference is that the left is silenced and not even allowed on the ballot. Of course Iran might have a real democracy if we hadn't helped them out in 1953.

[Warren DeMontague]

31. Agreed. I always laugh when wingnuts talk about us "bringing Democracy to the Middle East"...

Yeah, you mean the Democracy that Eisenhower and the CIA took out when they overthrew Mossadegh?

[Bucky]

48. Hey, we *invented* constitutional democracy. If they don't pay us the royalties, they can't use it!

It's basic intellectual property rights.

[Warren DeMontague]

81. .

:rofl:

[MaryBear]

22. Porn production as corruptor of the world?

A death penalty for the offense is a bit much, but it definitely gets one's attention. How about porn as purifier of the world? What consequence for that? Just how does porn contribute to the world?

[Hippo_Tron]

24. What do you expect? They had a democracy and we installed the Shah

The Shah was a symbol of oppression and was the perfect tool for the nutjobs to seize power and enforce their will on the entire country, whether they want it or not. The things we do for oil.

[Bucky]

51. For what it's worth, Iran is a democracy now. We've had to derail democracy in the mideast before

In Algeria in the 1980s and now in the Palestinian territories, when you unleash a powerful enough force like democracy without the needed social infrastructure to handle democracy, you get crazy, destructive results. The odds are that we'll end up supporting some undemocratic strong man in Iraq before we can get our troops out of there. The alternative to doing this is to watch a baby Iran pop up just that much closer to Saudi Arabia and Israel.

Somedays, I really don't like the freedom marches.
.

[Hippo_Tron]

59. Iran's not really a democracy now

The Supreme Leader has most of the real power and he's not elected. The guardian council also keeps all of the reformist candidates for the elected offices off of the ballot.

[Bucky]

112. Are you talking about Iran in this post?

It sounds like, I dunno, someplace else.
.

[Hippo_Tron]

136. Point taken, there are some scary similarities, but it's apples and oranges

Reformist candidates in Iran propose things that we take for granted like repealing laws that dictate how people can dress.

[Bucky]

47. "producers, directors, cameramen and actors". . . What about the fluffers?

Please don't tell me they're letting the fluffers off scott free!
.

[Az]

50. I wonder how they feel about the Song Of Solomon

I mean is the bible porn in their eyes?

[StudentsMustUniteNow]

58. Shame on the libertarians: I don't think our porn industry is anything to be proud of

Maybe if you knew porn stars and people who were involved in that milieu, you'd know that many, if not most, have had severely troubled childhood and use drugs. Sure they say they love their job. If they didn't say that, they'd be nowhere.

Most pornstars and strippers I've met hate their customers. Yes, it pays better than working at Walmart; but it says a lot that our society has commodified their very bodies and souls so that people can jerk off.

It's a shame that people on a PROGRESSIVE forum would actually believe pornography should be exported to Muslim countries. Shame on you. That ain't my father's (or grandfather's) progressivism. That reeks of libertarianism

[The Magistrate]

61. Personal Acquaintance Is a Less Than Infallible Guide, Sir

You would be surprised how many people have troubled childhoods, and use drugs. A great many college students do, for instance, and a great many policemen, and quite a few fast-food workers, psychiatrists, and advertising executives, as well as politicians. The claim is meaningless unless you can demonstrate it to be well in excess of the normal rates of the afflictions.

It is odd, as well, how the 'disease' model persists in discussion of exhibitionism, which results in some behaviors dis-favored by some progressive persons, while it is roundly denounced in discussion of other sexual orientations, such as homosexuality. The idea that the latter might owe to troubled childhoods, though many homosexuals report having troubled rearing in dysfunctional families, meets with very little favor among persons who claim such things 'cause' persons to take up sex work of various sorts.

It is also odd how the statements of people are taken seriously in one regard, and dismissed in another. Statements that such people hate their clientel are believed, statements that they love their work are not believed. Yet no criteria is proferred as to why the one should be believed, and the other not, and the only one that can be reasonably inferred is that believing one and dis-believing the other simply suits the preference of the person who engages in this selective response. For the record, most people in any trade tend to look down on their lay clientel, for the customer, while always right, is also an ignorant mark, and frequently a troublesome bother to deal with, whatever business one is in....

[LBJDemocrat]

64. Comparing homosexuals to pornographic actors

is simply beyond the pale.

[The Magistrate]

66. Do You Think So, Sir?

If you cannot explain why an exhibisionist orientation should be taken to arise differently from a homosexual one, or a sado-masochistic one, or a straight heterosexual one, or from a fascination with items of clothing, or any of the other shapes human sexuality appears in, then all you are doing is illustrating my point that a model which is denounced in one connection is taken as gospel regarding another, though absolutely no reason why this should be so is proffered by those who engage in that behavior.

[Forkboy]

62. "Most pornstars and strippers I've met."

:rofl:

[Rosemary2205]

63. LOL

You should really stop hanging out with all those prostitutes. :rofl:

[StudentsMustUniteNow]

70. "You should really stop hanging out with all those prostitutes."

So it's ok for you to jerk off to them, but it's a shame for me to have "prostitute" friends?

Yes, I have friends in the sex industry. Many young women these days get involved in it to make money. It's not as glamorous as you'd think, sorry; but keep whacking to other people's misery if it makes you feel better.

:sarcasm:

[Rosemary2205]

86. ROFLMAO

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Lilith Velkor]

67. How does jerking off to a photograph harm the soul of the photographed person?

If no money exchanges hands, is there still metaphysical damage?

[StudentsMustUniteNow]

69. It harms the soul by generating demand n/t

[The Magistrate]

72. So You Suggest, Sir, An End To Masturbation?

Rather a tall order, that....

[StudentsMustUniteNow]

73. An end to the corporate commodification of sex

You can masturbate all you want, but when you are buying and selling images of women for your pleasure, then that is not cool at all.

[mudesi]

75. What do you think of the Sistine Chapel?

Or the statue of David? All that nudity. What about the Kama Sutra?

The current year is: 2007

[StudentsMustUniteNow]

88. Don't play games with me

You know very well the difference between the Sistine Chapel (a work of art intended to be spiritually uplifting), the Kama Sutra (a guide) and pornography (material which you consume one-sidedly to get off sexually).

[mudesi]

91. Pornography has existed since humans have existed

While I was being facetious in pointing to the Sistine Chapel, you mustn't delude yourself into thinking that pornography is in any way a new phenomenon.

Here is an informative link:
http://www.slais.ubc.ca/courses/libr500/03-04-wt1/assignments/www/G_Abaee/history.htm

[StudentsMustUniteNow]

97. Murder, warfare and famine have existed since humans have existed

I guess we should all switch party affiliations then and forget about our struggle.

[Warren DeMontague]

134. Seeing as you're the one arguing that issues like reproductive choice "aren't that important"

perhaps you're the one who is confused about which party stands for what.

[The Magistrate]

76. Do You Imagine, Sir, That Masturbation Post-Dates Corporations?

Or that imagery of naked females was not a prevelant artifact in human cultures ages before the first joint stock company was a gleam in the eye in some over-shifty gentleman with a hard eye for the main chance?

This is getting too rich to continue....

"And I lift my glass to the awful truth that you can't reveal to the ears of youth, except to say it isn't worth a dime...."

[Forkboy]

84. LOL

a gleam in the eye in some over-shifty gentleman with a hard eye for the main chance?

That just made my day!

:toast:

[The Magistrate]

85. A Pleasure To Brighten Your Day, My Friend

Make mine Guinness....

[Warren DeMontague]

79. I can live with the shame.

Frankly, I think repression and uptightness around sex- in Muslim countries as well as our own- is in a large part responsible for the violence and crazy religious fundamentalism. That's my opinion.

Anyway, aren't you the one who is busy in other threads lecturing your fellow "progressives" that reproductive choice isn't really that important of an issue? You'll forgive me if I don't take yours as the final word on what is or isn't truly "progressive".

I'd rather much rather reek of libertarianism than stink of authoritarian bullshit.

[sampsonblk]

99. If it weren't marginalized we'd have a better industry

The porn industry is made of of outcasts in my opinion. That's because porn is so taboo in many quarters that decent performers wouldn't touch it.

Very unfortunate. If done differently, it could be just another form of entertainment.

[EOTE]

130. Oh, regarding Wal-Mart...

Maybe if you knew any Wal-Mart employees, you'd know that many, if not most, have had severely troubled childhoods and use drugs. Sure, they may greet you with a friendly smile, but if they didn't, they'd lose their jobs.

The Wal-Mart employees I've met hate their jobs. Granted, it pays better than not working at all, but it says a lot that our society has commodified meet and greeters to this point merely so that people can buy $500 laptops and $20 microwaves.

It's a shame that people on a PROGRESSIVE forum would actually believe that Wal-Marts should be exported to Muslim countries. Shame on you.

Wow, that was easier than I thought.

So once again, the argument is that people who enter into certain professions are not doing so willingly because obviously certain people cannot be responsible for their own professions. So, we must lock them up along with the purveyors of the goods, you know, because it's what's best for them. So what if the pornstars and strippers you've met hate their customers? I work in IT, and most of my coworkers hate their customers as well. I guess we've got to get rid of the IT industry because computer techs simply don't know what's best for them. Dear god this logic astounds me.

[ItNerd4life]

60. The internet is for porn.

I loved that video! Are they going to ban the internet also? Knowing them, they probably will.

[taught_me_patience]

65. This is what happens when religious fanatics

run a country. Same thing will happen in the U.S. in about 25 years at the pace we are going.

[StudentsMustUniteNow]

71. No. Right-wing assholes love porn

Their motto: Beer, tits, and guns.

[Warren DeMontague]

80. Funny, then, that so many of them want to ban it.

It seems to be one area where their uptight puritan authoritarian types agree with "ours".

[StudentsMustUniteNow]

89. Ted Haggard wants to ban gay sex

Your point is....

[Warren DeMontague]

94. My point is, if you're really all about "respect for women", maybe you should start by trying to

grasp why issues like personal freedom and reproductive choice are the deal-breaking important issues they are to many of "us progressives".

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=1107202&mesg_id=1107407

[StudentsMustUniteNow]

If you want to debate the issue of abortion choice, we can do it elsewhere

I'm not going to get myself banned to debate a libertarian like yourself.

I'm a progressive who grasps that your "personal freedom" isn't truly freedom if it's dictated by the market, which is skewed in the favor of moneyed and oppressive interests.

[Warren DeMontague]

101. I think if you want to march in here and start issuing edicts to everyone about what "progressivism"

ought to be about, and clucking your tongue about how "shameful" it is that the majority viewpoint on DU (most people here are not only strongly pro-choice, most people here also agree that porn by and for consenting adults should be legal) doesn't represent your personal view of what "real progressivism" is,

then I think the least you should do is stand behind all of your expressed viewpoints. You don't believe reproductive choice is, or should be, an important, certainly not a deal-breaking, issue for "real progressives". You think "we" should get behind "pro-life democrats like Bob Casey". This is your definition of progressivism, the definition that you are demanding everyone else obey. You are doing that in the other thread, and you're doing that here. So there is a connection.

Frankly, I think the right of people to control their own bodies; whether that be vis a vis reproductive choice or consenting adults taking their clothes off in front of a camera- are important, and I think those arguments are related--- and I happen to unapologetically take a "libertarian" stance on both of them.

[StudentsMustUniteNow]

102. Next time you masturbate to the women on your computer screen

Think of what I said.

Each of those women is a human being, with a story.

[Warren DeMontague]

104. Thanks for the lecture, Junior.

:eyes:

[Lilith Velkor]

117. But didn't you say it's OK as long as they don't get paid for it?

Gods forbid they should earn a living or get a degree or keep their children, right?

No...that would mean they actually are human beings, and not just victims. Wouldn't fit the fantasy--ahem, story.

:eyes:

[pork medley]

124. maybe people shouldn' t have to sell their bodies to keep themselves and their

children alive and healthy? :eyes:

[The Magistrate]

128. What Is Better About Selling Time, Energy, And Sometimes Even Health, Sir?

"There's an hour of my life I won't get back."

[Lilith Velkor]

129. That would entail a welfare state

I'm down with that, but most Americans are quite emphatically not.

[EOTE]

131. And you remember.... Every sperm is sacred.

There are Jews in the world.
There are Buddhists.
There are Hindus and Mormons, and then
There are those that follow Mohammed, but
I've never been one of them.

I'm a Roman Catholic,
And have been since before I was born,
And the one thing they say about Catholics is:
They'll take you as soon as you're warm.

You don't have to be a six-footer.
You don't have to have a great brain.
You don't have to have any clothes on. You're
A Catholic the moment Dad came,

Because

Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.

[WinkyDink]

68. Some misogynists want their women covered up; some want their women naked.

[The Magistrate]

74. So People Who Like Women Do Not Like Them Naked, Ma'am?

These things get awfully confusing sometimes....

Is liking naked men a sign of hating males?

What about sub-genres of pornography, such as that specializing in women fully clothed juxtaposed to naked males?

Where does homosexual pornography fit into this, particularly male to male pornographies, reportedly quite a briskly selling category, or pornographies featuring dominatrix figures, who also are, generally, more or less clothed?

[WinkyDink]

119. "Choice" is often about money. We've all heard the "stripping for college funds" anecdotes.

And "choice" is often culturally-influenced.

Offer a woman $100,000 to stay clothed, or $100,000 to have sex while being filmed. What are the odds the "choice" will be the latter?

[WinkyDink]

120. "Liking" something is not the same as honoring or having respect for.

Even the deranged Caligula knew that, when he had the Senators' wives forced into prostitution.

Is your mother, daughter, wife, or sister in porn? Would you like them to be?

And the topic isn't gay porn, in a world where men have more choices and better salaries, so, SIR, no need to obfuscate.

[The Magistrate]

122. Not Really, Ma'am

The subject is pornography, which can be found representing every sexual orientation and interest conceivable. Pornographies which represent what we might call 'minority interests' are, in fact, produced in a bulk greater than the proportion of those they cater to comprise within the general population, as these minority interests are more difficult to gratify physically with willing partners. Thus, the quantities of pornography catering to homosexuals, to sado-masochists, to various fetishists, comprises a much greater proporion of the pornography produced and consumed than these people consitute in the population, and it plays a much greater role in their actual sexual lives in most cases. To exclude such materials from discussion of pornography introduces a serious distortion, that would prevent any sensible consideration or understanding of the phenomenon, and the people involved both as consumers and producers.

The formulation you have used as your opener has an interesting ring to it, for it sounds a hint of the notes generally struck in a production featuring a dominatrix figure, and pitched to men oriented towards heterosexual submission. The dominatrix insists particularly and strenuously on being honored and respected by the object of her attentions, and is very hard to convince that such honor and respect is actually being rendered to her.

[pork medley]

125. if an historically oppressed group (viz., women)

are not yet free of certain cultural/economic forces, in iran or the USA or europe or wherever then it's a little disingenuous of you to suggest they demean themselves of their own volition, isnt it

[The Magistrate]

126. One Must Start With The Presumption They Demean Themselves, Sir

For that to carry any force as an argument. Persons who regard the activity as neutral, even, will be unimpressed by it. Further, the claim it is demeaning implies certain views of sexuality and sexual expression, that far from everyone shares.

[pork medley]

138. huh?

you think they demean themselves not out of economic necessity? i didnt know people entered the sex trade because they are talented at sex and wish to be paid to have it with other paid actors!

oh how naive i was! pornography is an expression of attachment, devotion, the beauty of the body, etc

[Warren DeMontague]

78. And some people think that individual women should be the ones making those decisions.

If you can prove, somehow, that the women in adult porn in this country have somehow been hyp-mo-tized out of their ability to consent, then your saw about "their women" might ring true.

However, it sounds like what you're really arguing is that YOU should be in charge of these womens' bodies, because you don't approve of the fact that THEY choose to take their clothes off and be paid for it.

[StudentsMustUniteNow]

90. Cambodian women choose to whore themselves?

Russians choose to go the Western European countries to prostitute or make porn?

Sure they choose, but who provides them the choice of alternatives if not the oppressive market?

[LBJDemocrat]

98. Couldn't have said it better myself. nt

[Warren DeMontague]

106. It's so nice of the two of you to take time off from explaining how un-important the right to

choose is to "us" progressives, and how "we" should support "pro-life democrats like Bob Casey"...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=1107202&mesg_id=1107202

...to defend and protect womankind from consenting adult porn.

I'm sure the millions of pro-choice American women whose reproductive systems your brand of "progressive" religious right apologia would put under police control thank you for your support and "respect". :eyes:

[Forkboy]

108. Funny how that works,isn't it?

:crazy:

[AnnieBW]

133. Publicly, they want their women covered up

But they sit there whacking off to porn while in the privacy of their own homes.

[windy252]

82. Best. Thread title. Ever n/t

[aikoaiko]

87. The OP's subject is not that far off from the truth.

Even if we got all Israeli's to live in South Florida and stopped messing with governments of the middle-east, the radical fundies would still want to drive our planes into buildings because our media is changing their cultural practices.

[PurityOfEssence]

93. Thou shalt not fuck

The only fun you should ever experience is reveling in the joy of god, and then only within the confines of Religion, Incorporated. Thou shalt not dance, drink, whoop it up, smile, or have any whiff of pleasure unless it's accompanied by abject fealty to the frightening supernatural hate-beast that you should spend every waking moment appeasing.

[Warren DeMontague]

95. That's pretty much it.

Thou certainly shalt not enjoy yourself.

[dogday]

96. I wonder what the penalty is for having it in your possession?`

If they give death for production of porn, do you think the sentence for owning some porn would be stiff (excuse the pun) too?

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

103. The link is non existent. Is this bullshit or an incomplete link?

:shrug:

MKJ

[B Calm]

115. All information about Iran in the last week or two has been bullshit!

USA is beating the war drums again!

[Warren DeMontague]

135. Here are other links to the same story:

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2007%5C06%5C14%5Cstory_14-6-2007_pg4_18

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/06/14/world/main2927315.shtml

[Seabiscuit]

118. As written...

would some poor schlep hired for pennies to move sets around for a pornographic movie be deemed a "corruptor of the world" under that fucktard law?

Perhaps they don't move sets around for pornographic movies.

I wouldn't know. :evilgrin:

[AngryAmish]

121. This is about home porn

Zahra Amir Ebrahimi is an Iranian actress. She is well known for playing very chaste women that the Mullahs very much approved of.

Zahra made a home porn tape with a boyfriend. Said boyfriend leaked the tape. You can find it on the internets (I did...and it was very...energetic).

Mullahs are pig-biting mad. Now all Zahra and the boyfriend are eligible for is a public lashing and jail (I am not kidding about the lashing part). I am not sure about the ex-post facto law of Iran so I don't know if these folks will get killed.

See

At the deepest level this is not about Zahra or this tape in particular. Iran does import technology and the Mullahs fear it. Being as backward as they are they cannot understand it and so fear it. Do they ban consumer electronics? The people would revolt. So it is easier to ban porn, scare people from making it, kill a few that do (kill a woman to protect "women") and problem solved. Much easier to do than to change their backward ass stupid culture. (Although their culture is changing even if a few men in ropes will not).

[AnnieBW]

132. They Sure Do Like Looking At It, Though

Apparently the largest consumers of porn worldwide are men from the Middle East. And not just plain old "vanilla" porn, either. :puke: