Let's get every professor in America packing heat!!

[sal paradise]

Over the past couple days I've been watching this debate about whether or not professor's and other faculty and staff members in universities across the country should be allowed to carry firearms in class, the idea being that in the case of a Virginia Tech repeat, the professor would be able to take down the gunman. I'm interested to see what people think of this, but in my opinion it's completely ridiculous. First of all, one point of this plan would involve psychological screening, so passionately backed by Glenn Beck. Here's a news flash: an extremely high percentage of college professors deal with mild to serious depression and anxiety problems. They wouldn't even qualify. I'd also urge proponents of this plan to take a look at some of them. Most of my professors don't look like they've ever fired a gun before in their lives, let alone in the context of an emergency situation. Third, I've seen professors FREAK OUT because of things as trivial as a cell phone going off during lecture. Do I really want them packing a 9mm in their briefcase? No thanks. I'll take my chances.

[aikoaiko]

1. As a professor, I'd welcome the opportunity.

I am already permitted to carry in my State, but leave my gun in my car when I go to work.

[Solo_in_MD]

16. Back when I taught full time, there was no need to carry, but IMO that has changed

I did teach one offsite course last semester, and won't comment if I was ever carrying

[Paladin]

19. Know What I'm Going To Do Tonight?

I'm going to get down on my knees and thank Sweet Baby Jesus that both my kids are grown and will never have to encounter someone like you, armed in a classroom......

[Solo_in_MD]

21. Gee, here I was thinking you were an athiest

Some of us have carry permits, or might be off duty or reserve LEOs, so you never know who standing next to you might actually be able to defend themselves, and possibly your family while you are helpless to do anything but mewl in fear.

[karlrschneider]

23. People like it don't want to be defended or even help themselves.

They're too immersed in their martyr fantasies.

[Solo_in_MD]

24. The poster's attitude is well known and treated with appropriate derision

[Scout]

30. some are too immersed in their cowboy/hero fantasies. n/t

[Solo_in_MD]

36. Having chosen to intevene in the past between perps and their vics, its no cowboy fantasy

But I was younger than and was in better shape to do it hand to hand. Today I am older and wiser and understand the need for the right tools for the job.





Fresh from todays headlines:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=144630&mesg_id=144632

[Paladin]

32. How Could I Ever Be An Atheist.....

...when I thank God every day that I'm not a Gun Nut?

[Solo_in_MD]

37. You wouldnt pass the physical

[Paladin]

39. Hey, You Screwed Up And Said Something Funny

What's the benchmark physical test for a Gun Nut? The strength to squeeze 4 lbs. of trigger pull? The flexibility to bend over and kiss Wayne LaPierre's ass? The possibilities are endless.....

[Solo_in_MD]

41. Its starts with sentience, basic motor control, judgement, items you were clearly shorted on

[Paladin]

42. Since You Seem To Know So Much About Me......

....what do you think of that cluster of rifles and pistols in one of my closets? The ones I used years ago with considerable skill and enjoyment---until the shooting sports became so clogged up with uncouth, right-wing assholes; knuckle-dragging death junkies that I didn't want to be associated with? I'm into fly fishing for trout, now; hanging out with a much better class of people.....

[Solo_in_MD]

46. Your ramblings on guns speak for themselves

You seem to have a major issue with firearms and private ownership and that everyone who has them or carries them has some sort of John Wayne/Dirty Harry complex. Some may, but I and many others do not. Here is my story...

I've stood between perps and vics unarmed. Not the brightest thing to do, but I was young and as the cliche goes, for evil to triumph, good men must do nothing. I've got a couple of scars to remind me of the price of doing it. I'm not some super hero wannabe, but I can not stand by and watch others bleed and can not understand why anyone would. In one incident, it was a member of my family bleeding.

These days evil carries serious weapons, so the victims needs them too. Home invasions are the latest thing, though violent muggings and carjackings are common too. Those of lesser physiques, including the vast majority of women can not defend themselves against large male thugs. Cops have no legal responsibility to come to their aid. Firearms, particularly handguns are what will stand between those people and mayhem. In my opinion, those who would disarm the weak bear some responsibility should they be attacked and unable to defend themselves, so the Brady Bunch is unethical and immoral.

The current firearms laws we have now are clearly adequate, if enforced. Unfortunately they are not. That has lead to inequitable local laws that do not allow the poor, mostly minorities and women, to have access to firearms that those better off, and mostly white do. Modern gun control is true to its racist roots.

Gun safety is important to every thinking person. It consists of training first and foremost, and it should start young. Who does firearms safety for little kids? Not the Brady Bunch, but the NRA. There is a clue here. Those who would ban guns, foster ignorance of them. Parents who do not get training for their children due to their own fears are doing their children no favors, and are in some part responsible when if their kids later hurt themselves or others out of ignorance. Guns are dangerous tools, respect them and teach that respect to your children, and there won't be the tragic accidents that occur, like the one this week were one child shot another. I practice what I preach here. My girls learned about firearms early. We did not allow toy guns in the house. When a family member showed up with one, it got locked up with the real ones (guns are not toys). Every firearm we own is secured at all times, but some are in quick access areas. Its the competent and responsible thing to do.

We don't advertise our firearms ownership, no "I'm the NRA" stickers or "I don't call 911 signs" or anything like it. Thats almost as stupid as the "No guns here" signs I see around some neighborhoods. Either seems a recipe for disaster. However, that has not stopped a couple of attempted burglaries at our home(s) over the years. One guy broke in while my wife and young daughters were there and I was away. He found himself facing a 9mm handgun and a shotgun. It took 20 minutes to get an LEO there...even though dispatch had been notified that the intruder was inside the premises and that the occupants were armed. As I said earlier, those who count on the police to defend them can and will be sorely disappointed.

It is said that the most rabid pro gunner is a mugged liberal. There is some truth in that. I prefer to take the Pink Pistols approach, which points out that an armed gay does not get bashed. Same with armed liberals. Personal ownership of firearms and self protection are indeed basic progressive values, as is protecting those who can not protect themselves. One would have to wonder about the depth of someones progressive commitment if they do not.

Another key point is that guns are not a seminal cause of violence. The good news is that more and more people are figuring that out. The right answer is to get guns out of the hands of violent criminals, not those who lawfully use them for sport and self defense.

The semi auto/assault weapon nonsense is just that. Assault weapons are full automatic weapons. Very very rare in civilian hands, frightfully expensive as well. Semi auto's, particularly riles and shotguns, are not significant in the crime states. All the fear over them is artificial as the that of WMDs in Iraq, IOW, total bullshit. Semi auto handguns are the best firearms for self defense. The number of rounds is not a primary determinate of criminal use, and given the statistics from shootouts, 10 rounds may well not be enough. I have no problems with civilians having high capacity magazines.

So there you have my position on personal firearms. I do not consider myself a gun nut, I don't worship them, or buy one every two weeks, but I do use the ones I have. I have a collection large enough to make the news, but with 4 shooters in the house, that happens. I will also resist any attempt to impose more limits or attempts to tax them out of existence or other anti gun ploys. Its a right, and you can not tax a right or limit it to those who can afford it.

I am not a violent man, but am quite capable of violence when it is needed. I won't apologize for that, or for having weapons near to hand. Until society can guarantee my safety and that of those near and dear to me, that is the way it is going to be.

[PinkTiger]

2. I had this discussion today with some body. If I were to carry a loaded gun into the classroom,

I'd be about as good at dealing with it as Barney Fife. Who's going to hold my bullets for me? The Department Head? LOL

[Lisa]

31. the Dean! Ours always ends up doing stuff like that ...

... because our Chair isn't around much (he's been trying to quit for 3 years but nobody else wants the job ...)

[BOSSHOG]

3. You don't go far enough my friend

according to the second amendment and the NRA every professor and every student and every food service worker and secretary and groundskeeper on every campus should have at least two loaded semiautomatic handguns in their possession at all times and handgrenades if practicable FOR SAFETY'S SAKE. This was and is the founding fathers intent. Just ask Charlton Heston or any other member of the proud and patriotic and all american interpretors of the constitution, the NRA. Silly me, I don't interpret the constitution and it doesn't say that to me, but I guess I'm not as patriotic as NRA members. Meanwhile arm every American to the hilt so we WILL ALL BE SAFER.

[damntexdem]

11. A well-regulated militia is what the FFs called for.

A lot of folks today think that a militia means that everyone has rights to a gun, sometimes with exceptions for mental illness, violent criminal histories, and so on. I won't argue that now. But if such access to guns IS what the 2nd Amendment is to mean, then that militia needs to be WELL REGULATED. And regulated right off of campuses, out of schools, out of churches, and so on.

But I did appreciate your satire.

[karlrschneider]

18. They were regulated off the Va. Tech campus.

That worked out really well.

[BlooInBloo]

4. Everybody knows that the solution to gun violence is more guns.

[benEzra]

28. Well, "more guns" are what did finally end the VT massacre...

sadly, it took the additional guns 9 minutes to show up, due in part to the fact that Cho chained the doors shut from the inside.

A similar response 8 or 9 minutes earlier, from inside the building, might have saved lives. It certainly wouldn't have made things any worse than they turned out to be, under the scenario where guns WERE banned from the VT campus, even from people licensed by the state to carry a weapon elsewhere.

I don't support "arming everybody" by any means, but I think allowing the 2%-5% of the adult population who is licensed to carry, to do so in those circumstances, wouldn't be a bad thing. Have them pass the same qualification tests as armed campus police, if you want (most could do so easily, in my experience).

[alcibiades_mystery]

5. No, thank you

I'll stick with sarcastic responses and griping to colleagues during frequent reading group/ happy hours...

:-)

[LeftishBrit]

6. So long as you don't export the concept to the UK...

at least until the stress of the Research Assessment Exercise (NCLB for universities) is over:

Imagine the scenes in research seminars:

"I strongly disagree with your conclusions. I think the methodology in the third experiment is flawed."

"My reply to that comment is..... BANG!"

[sal paradise]

8. YES! hahah

[WoodrowFan]

7. that'll tighten up the grading curve! (nt)

[damntexdem]

9. Any professor carrying a firearm on campus should be arrested and fired, tenured or not.

Any student carrying a firearm on campus should be arrested and suspended.

Anyone else, other than law enforcement, carrying a firearm on campus should be arrested.

Keep the damn guns off campus to the extent possible; and severely sanction any breach of this rule.

ROTC can march with fakes, they don't need real guns.

If a nutcase comes onto my campus and starts shooting, I would want to be able to dodge the bullets. I don't want to have to dodge bullets coming from myriad different directions from nutcases who think they can stop the original shooter.

Keep the damn guns off campus!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Solo_in_MD]

15. Please keep your damn irrational fears off my rights to defend myself

[Dr. Strange]

26. Why should law enforcement need a gun while on campus?

Why not apply the law to them too?

[porphyrian]

10. Yeah, anyone who suggests this has never been privy to academic politics.

The upside to it would be that there would finally be some openings to teach for those who've been waiting ten or more years for a job.

[damntexdem]

12. You do have a point.

But we who already have tenure see it differently.

;-)

[porphyrian]

13. Just shoot the suck-ups first - they're most likely eyeballing your position.

;)

[aikoaiko]

14. It stuns me that faculty think so low of their fellow faculty.

Carrying a concealed weapon is not for everyone and no ones advocates that EVERYONE should carry, but I would like the opportunity to defend myself with a gun should a situation ever arise.

There really aren't many places for me to hide in my tiny office.

[karlrschneider]

17. No problem with me for those who want to and aren't nuts.

College profs are no more prone to emotional instability than cops, ALL of which carry guns.

[Paladin]

20. And Tell Us This, Herr Schneider

Are you willing to support any steps---I mean ANY proactive steps---to determine which professors don't possess the emotional stability to be trusted with a firearm on the job? Or do you adhere to the standard gun militant's position that there isn't fuck-all to be done in advance, so we just have to wait until there's blood running in a classroom to do anything?

[karlrschneider]

22. I'll overlook your juvenile attempt at an insult and answer: Yes.

If the law had been properly followed and implemented, the Cho fellow would have been inhibited. And what does "fuck-all" mean? Is that something 6th graders say these days?

[Paladin]

33. Now THAT'S Entertainment!

Herr Schneider characterizes the serious questions I set out in my post #20 as a "...juvenile attempt at an insult,"
then immediately sees fit to group me in with "sixth graders." Gotta love it.....

By the way, Herr S., the term "fuck-all" is a long-standing, common, and adult curse phrase. Have you thought of getting out more?

[uppityperson]

38. Now now now, he "overlooked" your "juvenile attempt", rather than pointing it out

or noticing it or anything.

:sarcasm:

[Paladin]

40. Sorry, He Lost Me When He Failed To Recognize "Fuck-all"

n/t

[alcibiades_mystery]

25. "ALL of whom"

Just keepin' with the spirit of the thread, karl...

;-)

I plan to stop any would-be college shooters with....


The Red Pen of Justice!

If that fails, I will dazzle him or her with deft post-structuralist readings of various pop culture textual artifacts, or just show Gus Van Sant films until the shooter falls asleep...

[benEzra]

27. No, but I think qualified staff already state-licensed to carry a weapon

should be allowed to do so. Have them pass the same qualification tests as the armed campus police, if you want (most CCW holders I know personally could do so easily).

Approximately 2% of the population of most states hold a carry license, so I'd expect the percentage of armed staff to be in the same ballpark, certainly no more than 5%.

FWIW, I am authorized to carry a weapon in NC and ~31 other states. To obtain a license, I had to pass an FBI background check, a state background check, a mental-health-records check, have my fingerprints run by the FBI, attend a state-mandated class on self-defense law, pass a written test on self-defense law administered at the sheriff's office, AND demonstrate competence with a handgun on a shooting range. It is not an insubstantial investment of time and money, and that plus the thorough background checks tend to weed out the bad and the incompetent.

[qdemn7]

35. That sounds like a fine idea

Have them pass the same qualification tests as the armed campus police,

Of course I'm sure the anti-guns zealotws would be opposed to that too.

[Lisa]

29. as a sessional lecturer, I'm non-tenured faculty -- should I bring a crossbow instead?

If actual firearms are to be reserved for those above the associate professor level.

I guess I can always get by with my sword. (I'm also a Roman and early medieval era re-enactor.)

[Swamp Rat]

34. LOL! I'll bring my epee too!

ON GUARD!!

[nealmhughes]

43. Good God no! Can one just imagine the verbal combat becoming fire?

"If you invoke that damned frog again, I am coming across that table and kick your ass."

"As Lacan clearly read. . ."

"Get off of me!"

"I said get off of me."

"Bang."

Let us continue with no further interuption from those totally opposed to some Derrida and Foucault in the classroom..."

[L. Coyote]

44. To whomever thinks this is a good idea: "Have you ever met a professor?"

[Paladin]

45. My Sentiments Exactly

Remembering my undergrad years, I'd estimate that maybe half my profs seemed stable and trustworthy enough to be packing; law school profs: maybe one in ten.......

[Solo_in_MD]

47. I have been one (full time) and continue to teach part time

so yes, I have. Some may be qualified. Others would pee their pants at the sight of a weapon.

[benEzra]

49. Yes. A lot of them supremely competent individuals.

To whomever thinks this is a good idea: "Have you ever met a professor?"

If it would make you feel better, you could have licensed individuals pass the same qualification tests as the armed campus police. Most CHL holders I know could do so easily (and probably have a better grasp of use-of-force law to boot).

[alittlelark]

48. uh, yeah......

sigh.