So, honestly, what exactly has changed?

[Javaman]

The dems will be in the house and senate now for 6 months as of the end of this month. Aside from the first 100 hours, what has happened since?

libby got convicted then commuted.

hearing after hearing after hearing without investigation.

subpoenas have been issued to the WH only to be ignored.

What ever happened with ricechecks subpoena????? that has vanished off the radar. behind the scenes deal made???

and they keep making it perfectly clear that impeachment is off the table. If that is true, then perhaps mrs. pelosi could tell me why then issue subpoenas at all? why have hearings?

we have 18 months left of the bastard* in office. If the dems don't have impeachment proceedings by the end of Sept, then that's it, they won't.

There will be, I feel a mass defection from the democratic party and perhaps we will finally see a chance for a real third party. Something called the Progressive Party. (but PP as initials really doesn't sound good)

I'm holding on, but frankly, my hold is slipping. Like anyone of the faithful on here, we need a boost now and then. I just haven't seen it or heard it.

[Captain Hilts]

1. They don't have a veto-proof majority. THAT's the problem.

That's why minimum wage legislation is going nowhere, etc.

[Javaman]

2. I don't give a damn. they refuse to listen to the american public.

put impeachment on the damn table.

[MonkeyFunk]

5. The American Public

isn't clamoring for impeachment.

[Javaman]

10. So 51% of the people polled want it and that isn't enough, huh? nt

[jpgray]

12. "Would be fine with" and "clamoring for" are two separate things

[JVS]

61. If people would be fine with something, go ahead and do it.

[MonkeyFunk]

13. according to one poll

another poll puts the figure at 39%.

And no, 51% is probably not enough for such a drastic action.

[GOTV]

17. So you looked at ONE poll that told you what you wanted to hear and that's enough for you huh? n/t

[Javaman]

27. damn straight. nt

[GOTV]

45. Well, that maybe why the progressive movement is experiencing less progress or movement.....

than we might have expected.

If we can't be bothered to understand the world we can hardly expect to change it for our benefit.

[bighart]

74. should changing it for "our" benefit

be the goal, or should it be changing it for the good of the whole?

[Tesha]

62. Once in a while, wouldn't it be interesting if our leaders *LED* rather than followed? (NT)

[GOTV]

14. Why does everyone here insist on the "the people want impeachment" fantasy?

Have we lost our ability to look at data? The polls that show support for impeachment are FAR in the minority.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

28. because

I live in the red part of Illinois. There are 22 churches within a 3 mile radius, (and dammit, only one pub) to say that people are conservative is to say that the pacific is wet. Or that the sun is hot. Or that Ann coulter might have prostate cancer. (saw that on another site, and could NOT stop laughing)

People here are not only willing to support impeachment, they are actively talking about what a horrible mistake we made and how removing them from office would be a good thing.

For people to consider it here, in redneck Illinois, that says something. OK, so my data is a result of personal discussions, and not due to any local poll. Anecdotal information is often wrong, but just as often, it drives the creation of studies because of that evidence.

[GOTV]

42. Your personal experience, in your local area, does not speak for the nation...

You know this but you insist on believing otherwise.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

58. of course it doesn't, but neither can this evidence be ignored.

without any proof at a trial, without witnesses, without clear evidence of obstruction, it is remarkable that so many already approve of impeachment. ONCE PEOPLE SEE THE REAL EVIDENCE, then, the tide will shift even more. A great example was the way people reacted to the Clinton impeachment. People knew that the basic underling activity sucked. But it was NOT treasonous, it did not result in the deaths of thousands of US soldiers, nor did it cause the deaths of hundreds of thousands Iraqis.

People deserve more credit than you seem willing to give them. You fear a repetition of what happened to Clinton. In his case, already popular, he became MORE popular. I submit that the same will occur with Bush. he is already unpopular, and impeach facts and evidence in a court of congress will make him even more unpopular. Unfortunately, people like you manage to put a stop to even trying, because more than anything, people worry about uncontrolled change. And impeachment = change.

Anecdotal evidence, statistically speaking, offers little measurable proof or evidence. however, given sufficient anecdotal evidence, it becomes necessary to change the focus and to study the issue with such evidence in mind. You refuse to do that. Obviously, your measure of the nation's pulse is far greater, broader, deeper and wiser than any of ours, and I bow with all of the respect that you so clearly demand. At least as far as I can in my current sitting position. But, you are wrong. I am NOT trying state my findings and experiences are applicable to the entire nation. I am saying that given the strong conservative tilt where I live, it is something to take into accound and consider - because the sands are shifting. the winds of change are blowing. the aspens are turning. My stomach is churning.

[GOTV]

69. Oh yes. One person's personal experience in their local area CAN be ignored...

... when characterizing a nation.

Listen all your red state buddies now don't like Bush, yet MOST nationwide polls show minority support for impeachment. Why in the world would would any intelligent person consider the opinions of you and your friends on par with the results of MOST nationwide polls.

Your experience is completely, 100% irrelevant in determining the state of the nation when we have all these polls.

[jgraz]

44. Apparently some of us have lost our ability to look at data

You can practice on this data:

http://americanresearchgroup.com

Question:
Do you favor or oppose the US House of Representatives beginning impeachment proceedings against President George W. Bush?

7/5/07	          Favor   Oppose   Undecided
All Adults         45%      46%       9%
Voters             46%      44%      10%
Democrats (38%)	   69%      22%       9%
Republicans (29%)  13%      86%       1%
Independents (33%) 50%	    30%      20%

3/15/06            42%      49%       9%


Question:
Do you favor or oppose the US House of Representatives beginning impeachment proceedings against Vice President Dick Cheney?
7/5/07	          Favor   Oppose   Undecided
All Adults         54%      40%       6%
Voters             50%      44%       6%
Democrats (38%)    76%      24%       -
Republicans (29%)  17%      83%       -
Independents (33%) 51%      29%      20%

[GOTV]

52. Your poll shows only minority support for impchg Bush, still, I'll see your poll and raise you one

* http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/index.cfm/fuseaction/viewItem/itemID/15689

May 10, 2007, 39% favor impeachment

* http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/39_favor_impeaching_bush

July 07, 2007, 39% favor impeachment

Your move. I can list many more depending on how far back you want to go.

[jgraz]

55. Now I think you're just being deliberately obtuse

The first poll only sampled registered voters and asked about impeaching Bush and Cheney in one question. The second poll asked about impeachment and removal from office.

Neither one asks all of "the people" about only impeachment. The one that did got some very different results. Hardly a justification for calling impeachment a "fantasy".

[GOTV]

67. You've seen 3 polls, one you provided, that show under50% support for impeaching Bush. Fantasyland.

You should start with polls that support your position. Because I have plenty that don't.

[JVS]

41. Seldom does any party have a veto-proof majority.

Newt never let that keep him down

[sendero]

71. Exactly..

.... the Bush gang play politics like a Poker game. They bluff, bluff and bet at the pot continuously with nothing in their hand.

They take every pot because the Dems fold like paper napkins with every tough bet. You can never win a poker game if you don't confront the pot bully and you cannot win at politics either.

I don't think the country is QUITE ready for impeachment, but it IS ready to see Dems bluff a hand now and then. for effs sakes we've been dealt pocket aces over and over and we lose the hand anyway.

It is getting tiresome and there is nobody to blame but Reid and Pelosi, and those of you who can't see that need effing glasses.

[jgraz]

47. You mean, they don't have the spine to do anything without a veto-proof majority

And the minimum wage passed, attached to the war funding. It's a simple legislative technique one uses when you want to get bills signed without having a veto-proof majority.

[Toots]

Nothing ventured nothing gained

We have certainly gained nothing..and in fact because of their complete lack of effort may lose "Big time"

[sandnsea]

3. The brakes have been put on

Wouldn't it have been wonderful if we would have had enough votes to put them on before Roberts and Alito.

In addition, the dynamics of the discussion have changed, pushing Bush further and further down the hole and the Republican Party along with him.

Maybe now people understand why we've had so little progress in the last 30 years.

[leftchick]

4. LP?

Liberal Party? or is that "too scary"?

[shadowknows69]

7. How about "The Tree of Liberty" party

or simply "The Constitution Party"

[leftchick]

8. CP!

I love it!

:)

[peace13]

6. To my mind the only thing that has changed is

more have died or been wounded. The players in DC shuffle paper while we continue down this blood soaked path. Our freedoms have been yanked out from under us by those in power and few Americans even know it.

[Javaman]

9. Powerful point. You are absolutely correct.

:cry:

[walldude]

23. Yeah Ed Shultz was babbling about the politicsof war today

These idiots have been playing this game for so long that they don't know how to do anything without worrying about how it's going to affect their re-election chances. It's all a political game to them, while a couple hundred thousand of our kids are roasting in the desert of a foreign nation, attempting to dodge bullets and avoid IED's. Why are our kids still in the middle of this mess? Because Democrats are afraid that Karl Rove, Bill O'Reilly, Sean Hannity, Ann Coulter and the rest of their ilk might accuse them of "not supporting the troops" or call them names, or some other pathetic excuse. They need to take a cue from the DOJ guy (Koppel is his name I think) who had the balls to put his job on the line today and stand up and speak the truth.

[SammyWinstonJack]

46. *few Americans even know it* Thanks again, *liberal media*!

:argh: I sometimes wonder how much I would know if it weren't for sites like Democratic Underground?

I don't watch the *news*, though I do know bu$hit when I hear it, which thanks to DU, I am well aware of.

I just assume others who listen to the corporate media, do as well.

Maybe that is a huge assumption on my part? :shrug:

[here_is_to_hope]

51. I just ask my husband....

if he knows this or that...if he doesnt, it hasnt made the msm...such a good little ginea pig!

[SammyWinstonJack]

57. LOL! Sounds like my husband. In fairness to him, he doesn't have time to watch the *msm*.

He is too busy trying to *put food on his family*, much like the rest of the working class. :evilgrin: So in the meantime, he has to hear all about the evils of bu$hco from me, and he tunes my rants out, daily. :evilgrin:

[here_is_to_hope]

81. My story is a

little different...after we married, his entire family started reading my political/personal blog (its all personal) for an "understanding" of the goings on in the world. 5th generation Oregonians on the coast, surfing rednecks. I found myself peppered with questions and was more than happy to un-spin it all for them.
I learned much and I can now foresee when a story I get here at DU-no matter how important, will not be known by the family.


:eyes:

[WilliamPitt]

11. Jesus fucking Christ.

I'm sorry, Java, but damn.

What has changed?

Hm.

Bush and Cheney no longer have carte blanche to steamroll insane legislation through congress, because their allies are no longer in the majority.

Anyone who thought last November was the equivalent of some kind of magic wand needs to read a civics book, take a deep knee bend, and go back to fucking bed.

DU has become such a disgusting, deranged, vapid, tantrumy cesspool of nonsense.

"Be careful what you wish for" has new meaning for me now.

We wished for control of congress. We got it. And it took nine short months to spit in the face of what we worked so hard to gain. We turn on each other, undermine our hard-won majority status, and if we are not careful, we will rat-fuck ourselves right back to where we were last year.

You think it's bad now? You fail to remember what "bad" was really like. As do too many others here in the fucking playground.

I respect you down to the ground, Java, but I am sick to death of shit like this.

[shadowknows69]

15. It's just the frustration Will

I understnad the due process and how long it takes but our reps really are acting like paper tigers here. Where are the contempt of congress charges for refused supoenas? That's my biggest question.

[WilliamPitt]

18. "Where are the contempt of congress charges for refused supoenas?"

In process.

Which takes time.

By design.

You don't like process? Move to China or Burma. The process is really quick there.

[shadowknows69]

22. Oh I would love to see some good old fashioned Chinese justice

on this crew. In process? OK, I'll give you that. They need any help writing them? I have spare time.

[BlooInBloo]

25. "I have spare time". Sober, please? heeheehee!

[shadowknows69]

26. Excuse me?

Not quite getting your implication, but then again I don't get the point of most of your flaming posts.

[BlooInBloo]

30. Was just teasing you from your intoxicated exploits a few days back - that's all.

[shadowknows69]

33. I assure that is a very rare thing

which should be obvious on how badly I handled it lol. Believe me I feel like being drunk 24/7 at this point but I was down that hole once in my life and won't go there again.

[BlooInBloo]

38. Then I fully support your spare time offer! :)

[shadowknows69]

39. Send me the forms

I'm doing Rice's first. She's been shoe shopping too long. Time to fit her for prison boots.

[shadowknows69]

24. Not for nothing but I don't think my response deserved that little quip

I'm not the enemy man. Peace.

[WilliamPitt]

32. No, you're not.

Ignorance of what it means to hold power in congress is the enemy.

Ignorance of process is the enemy.

Impatience is the enemy.

Self-immolation is the enemy.

You're not. But the point needs to be made.

The process is slow because our government was formed as a firewall against absolutist rulers like the Stuart kings.

Yelling at it won't make it go faster, and that's a good thing for all of us.

[shadowknows69]

37. Yeah but it makes us feel better

Primal scream and all that. Don't begrudge us some impatience for trying to save the country we love. Point made though. All respects my friend.
S

[jgraz]

53. Not yelling won't make it go at all

Do you honestly think the Dems would be doing all this if the people weren't screaming for it? If they actually DO stand up and try to stop the war, it will be because of those "impatient", "ignorant" lefties.

BTW, we also plan on being ignorant and impatient about healthcare, fair trade and tax reform, among other things. You may want to get ready for that.

[leftchick]

35. it was uncalled for

and tacky. Ignore it.

[Javaman]

31. The evidence is there for impeachment. moron* voilated the FISA law. nt

[walldude]

66. That's the best you can do? Don't let the door hit you?

Maybe some of us are tired of waiting. Maybe some of us have friends and family on the front lines who's fucking lives depend on hurrying up. But don't let that bother you, at least we don't live under a dictatorship or commies...

[Marrah_G]

72. And some of us with loved ones on the front lines realize it takes time

It's not easy, it won't happen tommorrow, they won't be home next week. We can hold our breaths, stomp our feet and go "lalalalalalalalala", but NONE of that changes the fact that it is a process, it is reality and our reps are working towards that goal.

[leftchick]

16. it seems to me

the WH did just dandy with congress passing the last war funding legislation with the bonus of extra dollars and no strings! The War Machine is thriving to the detriment of all else.

[WilliamPitt]

19. So dig up Truman and scold him.

[leftchick]

20. nah

That is a stupid suggestion, perhaps you could recommend it to pelosi and co. to consider. I will hold the scoundrels in congress who "hold the purse strings" feet to the fire. :eyes:

[Javaman]

29. we are still at war and crooks are still in the WH. tell me what has changed. nt.

[Zensea]

34. Everyone has their breaking point

I see you've reached yours.
That's right, I'm referring to the point where one begins to see things this way -- "DU has become such a disgusting, deranged, vapid, tantrumy cesspool of nonsense," and not to the breaking point regarding disgust with the way in which Congress goes about its business methodically.
Personally, I reached that point regarding DU a long time ago (and I know several others who did also)although I've got to say that it does seem that such nonsense has become even more prevalent recently.
I keep hoping for better, so I keep reading here.
Hopefully come 2008 once the actual primary season begins things will improve, but I'm not holding my breath.

[Usrename]

43. OK, Who among us worked to continue funding Bush's war?

You are just making shit up.

[treestar]

63. Thank you for the breath of sanity!

We need some around here.

We could have had Patriot Acts III and IV and a war against Iran and a war against a certain South American country to boot. And a draft to make sure everyone not rich sends their kids to these wars.

We could be lining up for national IDS and having our kids saying the "Our Father" to open the day in public schools.

We could be seeing every single person deemed a noncitizen by an unreviewable police agency being herded into those detention centers built by some subsidiary of Halliburton.

We could be seeing a requirement for exit visas to travel, in the form of denial of a passport to anyone deemed "an enemy combatant" by a unreviewable bureau of the unitary executive branch.

We could be seeing statues of Bush being erected in all the public squares and big billboards with his picture everywhere, telling us to be patriotic and support the troops.

A congressional majority for the repukes in 2006 would have emboldened them to all this and more.

[Marrah_G]

70. This crap started 10 days after they came into power

I am with you on this, I am incredibly sick of it.

You would think people with an interest in politics would have a CLUE how the whole damned system works. Which leads me to believe a good sized part of DU are one issue wonders, with very little knowledge on how politics and the world work, and not much interest in learning.

[Odin2005]

73. I think some DUers need to look at a US Government textbook

A big, thick, college textbook; not the simplistic, sanitized, quasi-propagandistic things called high school Civics textbooks.

The Founders designed the government to grind on slowly, you don't like that go make your own benevolent dictatorship.

[Javaman]

78. You know what Will, I'm sick to death of people getting killed everyday.

I'm sick to death of the daily lies we are told.

I'm sick to death of the laws that are broken.

I'm sick to death of the constitution being trampled on.

I'm sick to death of a prez* that has total disregard for the rule of law.

I'm sick to death of hearing about civilians and soldiers dying every day.

I'm sick to death of people whining about the process and that things take time.

I'm sick to death of no one being pissed off enough to protest in the streets.

I'm sick to death of stacked courts that have not a care for the law.

I'm sick to death of crooked elections.

I'm sick to death of the overt secrecy.

I'm sick to death of the Geneva conventions not being observed.

Shall I go on?

Will I respect you as well. But there comes a time when talk no longer matters, but doing the right and just thing does.

If the senate doesn't have the votes now, when will they? Poop in one hand and wish in the other, see which one fills up faster.

Waiting for the votes is a fools paradise.

If we honestly believe that by holding our breath and waiting for this congress to wake up to the fact the the american public is sick to death of this administration* then we will have a very long wait.

Demanding impeach proceedings regardless of whether or not we have the votes is just the right thing to do morally and ethically.

A precedent needs to be set now. Call a vote, start the investigation.

[BlooInBloo]

21. Sigh.... Razor-thin majority in 1 branch = stop the metaphorical bleeding....

Solid majority in 1 branch = get a little bit done. Controlling *2* branches = real positive advance opportunities.

People have such bizarre notions about what can be done with a bare majority in only 1 branch of government.

[onenote]

49. and even the "solid" majority in the House is not a solid progressive majority

There a lots of blue dog Democrats in the House -- Democrats who are from red-leaning areas who are easily distinguished from the Conyers and Waters and Franks of the party. Here's a shocker - Heath Shuler's district is different from Barney Frank's district.

And thus even the "solid" majority in the House is only solid around the middle, less so as you move towards the edges.

[salinen]

56. right

2006 wasn't enough. We're in a dead zone. 2008 may be the golden year.

[Javaman]

36. I love when I get flamed like this LOL nt

[radfringe]

40. the excuses are different

not better, just different

[brentspeak]

48. There's no lack of "concern" on your part, that's for sure

[brentspeak]

50. "hearing after hearing after hearing without investigation." What is that LIE supposed to mean?

The hearings ARE part of the Congressional investigations. And they've already resulted in over a dozen White House staff resignations.

Either you are extremely dense, or extremely dishonest.

[Javaman]

79. Thank you for your kind words....

but I would rather you shove it.

[OzarkDem]

54. Impeach Gonzo

None of the investigations can move forward until DOJ gets on board. That's why Gonzo is still in his job - to keep his finger in the dike.

Get rid of Gonzo (and there's ample evidence against him) and the rest can proceed. Without DOJ on their side, Congress won't be able to do much, especially with so many conservative judges in the federal court system.

[Firespirit]

59. You and millions of others.

Ask a struggling American whose salary has stagnated, who is underemployed and forced to work obscene hours so they can't take a second job, whose health insurance is dropping benefit after benefit, who sees the price of everything from fuel to housing costs to food to utilities rise, rise, rise, with no end in sight...

They'd say, quite honestly and quite appropriately, NOTHING has changed.

[MasterDarkNinja]

60. What would a neocon congress have done in this time?

You're wrong that the dem congress has done nothing, compare it to what would have happened if the neocons still controlled it.

-No minimum wage increase.

-Congress wouldn't be putting much pressure on Bush to change course in Iraq.

-No subpoena showdown to help expose Bush's lies and how he's abusing power.

-Remember all of those bills passed and signed into law by only republican votes that you didn't like, imagine how many more of them a neocon controlled congress could have gotten through.

-Dems would be reduced to having to filibuster to block bills from passing, rather then being able to simply vote them down.

Keep in mind that last time the repukes had 56 votes in the senate, this time we have only 51, one of which is unable to vote due to his illness (Tim Johnson), and another that's a true independent (Joe), so our majority is really quite slim in the senate.

[ComerPerro]

76. well, to be honest, a Repig congress would have done nothing, LOL

that is, nothing they campaigned on. They had the White House, the House, and the Senate and still couldn't accomplish any of their promises, lol.

But, anyway, you make very good points about how our "majority" is really in name only.

And the whole discussion, debate, and rhetoric has changed. Republicans are on the defensive, and even Repigs are being asked how they are gonna end the war.

[blues90]

64. My two cents of copper plated steel .

I feel the first 100 hours was a waste of effort and the slogan 6 for 06 .

Now perhaps it may be true if Pelosi left impeachment on the table the dems would not have gained the majority in the house , I don't know and we will never know now .

I do feel however that before all else Impeachment should have been right back on the table as soon as the 110th was in power .

Right now it is apparent that the bush admin is stalling and dragging the hearings out until the end of their term . I also feel it was a mistake for the house to fund the war once again simply because of pressure applied in the form of babble that they do not support the troops .

This entire damn attack and occupation of Iraq is just a murderous diversion while our country was torn apart from the inside as well as a path to secure the oil and make massive profits by american corporations and private organizations .

The hearings are not slowing Bush and Cheney down or Rove for that matter , I may be wrong but they have had their plans in place for sometime now and so far they are the winners in that respect .

If any of this is for any form of political gain of elections in 2008 then we are one sorry country filled with lies and no longer have a government for and by the people .

[paparush]

65. I posted this same sentiment earlier - The 2006 elections basically gave us the power to 'debate'

the war, but not to effectively stop it.

Its damn sad and even more frustrating.

[Marrah_G]

68. Ignorance is bliss

[Javaman]

80. Enjoy yourself with that. choosing to remain ignorant is what is wrong. nt

[ComerPerro]

75. the entire atmosphere has changed. Think about it. Honestly. Everything changed.

What are we bitching and arguing about now?

Minimum wage passed, but not quite the bill everyone here wanted.

Investigations and hearings may be making slow progress if any at all, but at least they are happening.

And consider the issues this congress is facing. The hottest argument around right now seems to be impeachment.

Consider one, two, three years ago, with complete and total Repig control.

BushBot judges being appointed, bills getting rubber stamps without debate, and even serious discussion of an amendment to the Constitution that would expressly ban gay marriage.

So, tell me, oh forgetful one, has nothing changed?

[progressoid]

77. BE PATIENT!!!

Here's what I was told three months ago.

"Be patient."
"These things take time."
"We're getting all of our ducks in a row."
"One day at a time."
blah blah blah.

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: