Civil Rights Poll

[rpgamerd00d]

Interested in the results of this one.

Question: Suppose you were denied an essential civil right. You have the opportunity to affect change in society, and obtain that denied right. You have two choices in obtaining this right.

* Choice 1: A two step process. Step 1) Obtain the right under a different name. Step 2) Fight for the name change. This has a almost-guaranteed chance of success.
* Choice 2: A one step process. Obtain the right, by its proper name. This is controversial in today's society, and has almost no chance to succeed.

Which do you choose?

[Spazito]

1. Hmmm, this strikes me as a civil union versus marriage poll

without simply stating it. If so, why would you not word it as such? Are you trying to see if there would be a different result if the poll doesn't use "civil union" or "marriage" or are you trying re-enforce a position you hold while not being up-front about the issue itself?

[rpgamerd00d]

2. Why wouldn't it apply to any right?

Why restrict it?

[Spazito]

16. So, if I read this right....

You would feel the Jim Crow laws were the right way to go to begin to address the discrimination of African Americans, addressing inequalities by degree instead of addressing inequities in full? I use this issue in response to your "Why wouldn't it apply to any right?" question.

Edited to add: It is the "separate but equal" argument that is central to both issues, imo.

[rpgamerd00d]

17. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that first, there was "separate but equal".. and then..

... there was true equality.

Step 1), then Step 2).

Or do I have my history wrong?

[Spazito]

20. That is my point, the Jim Crow laws were put in place....

to skirt the law while still practicing discrimination hence the "separate but equal". Do I gather from your response you would have supported the Jim Crow laws as addressing discrimination for that "time" in history? Would you have seen these as acceptable?

As to true equality, one has only to see what has happened to try and block the African-American vote during elections to question whether "true equality" has yet been achieved, imo.

[rpgamerd00d]

OK, lets not go down that path (that's another topic)

But the fact remains that African Americans DID have "separate but equal" for a time in our history. And once that was a given, they fought for full civil rights, and won that too.

Would you have preferred that they stayed without those "separate but equal" rights all that time, waiting for full equal rights? That's horrible!

[Spazito]

30. Given you responded to my first post by refering "any right"

I would argue it is NOT another topic but, seeing as your poll WAS really about "civil union" versus "marriage", I can see how you would rather not address this rights question directly.

I think the "separate but equal" did NOTHING but subvert the law and did NOTHING to change the the realities of discrimination. That, I think, is horrible.

[ThomCat]

64. Geez, you had to go and use history and reason.

Why would you go and do that? He just wants you to conceded defeat and admit his intellectual superiority. Is that so much to ask?
:P

[LostinVA]

50. This is the point the OP made in the other thread

That the "separate but equal"/JIm Crow process was the right and correct way to forward civil rights. Versus, you know, following the Constitution of the United States.

[ThomCat]

67. Right, apparently the fact

that Jim Crow became a self-perpetuating system that prevented civil rights, and the fact that we needed riots and decades of additional civil rights activism to get past Jim Crow means nothing.
:eyes:

Lord help us from people who know so little but insist they know everything.

[blonndee]

3. See here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=123952&mesg_id=129178

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[blonndee]

5. What, don't want your own words coming back to make you look bad?

You're the one who continued the argument in another thread, BTW.

[rpgamerd00d]

7. This has nothing to do with that.

And remember, quoting me only makes me look better, not worse.

You know, because I'm right and you're wrong.

[blonndee]

8. HAHAHA!! Mmm, okay. Sure, you're right.

"Quoting me makes me look better." :rofl:

[rpgamerd00d]

9. Poll

5 - 2 atm.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

39. Okay, then I'll quote you on this, "fucking queers."

Yes, that is a deleted quote of yours. Does that make you look better now?

[LostinVA]

56. OOOOOO -- snap

[bicentennial_baby]

42. Oh *that* is f'n funny!

Well, if it weren't so pathetic and all...

[ThomCat]

60. ROFL!

:rofl:

Oh God! I needed a good laugh today. I think I just scared one of my coworkers!

:rofl:

You're right and everyone else is wrong...

:rofl:

[rpgamerd00d]

68. Well, at least you finally admit it.

[LostinVA]

54. Thanks for the help, B

I was off at the gym, spreading homophobia due to my insistence on equal civil rights creating said bigotry.

Did I get that right?

[Nicole]

27. Thanks for the link

That explains a LOT.

[uppityperson]

75. Thanks for the link. Explains a lot.

[Spazito]

105. Wow.....just Wow!

My first post was done totally absent any knowledge of these previous posts in the link you provided. Having now read them all I can say is YIKES!

[LostinVA]

118. And, that makes me totally impressed with how perceptive you are

I'm dead serious about that.

[fishwax]

114. wow. thanks for that link.

though, of course, this thread has nothing to do with that :rofl:

[blonndee]

115. Not at all!!

:hi:

[LostinVA]

46. Check out the Edwards thread sub thread

And the OP's framing of this issue.

Being disingenuous is the only way to get people to agree with him, I guess.

[Spazito]

98. Thanks for the link....

I was unaware of the OP's author's previous posts on that thread, it certainly is ....enlightening, to say the least!

[LostinVA]

104. You're welcome, and take a look at this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x132435

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

6. Geez, some people are so uppity.

They want to sit on the front of the bus AND get an apology for slavery?

Sheesh.

[blonndee]

10. Okay, so you're "winning" with 7 whole votes total?

What a sample!!!

[rpgamerd00d]

11. Come on, drop the rhetoric and talk rationally for a minute.

Clearly, my viewpoint is not as unique as you thought it was, nor is it at all conservative.
Its clearly 100% liberal. It just so happens to also be 100% rational and founded in reality.

I am not the kind of liberal that lives in fantasyland about how the world SHOULD be.
I am the kind of liberal that fights in the real world to make changes that positively affect my life and the lives of everyone, no matter how big or small those changes are. I realize that change comes slowly, and I have patience to WIN VICTORIES over the Conservatives. Because TIME is ALWAYS on the side of Liberals.

[blonndee]

12. Did someone else take over the keyboard?

Why can't you talk like that on the other thread? You know, rationally and without resorting to quoting RW bigots and blaming gays for the lack of equality? A whole lot of animosity and time could have been avoided.

[rpgamerd00d]

13. I suppose you're right. This is a sensitive issue to me.

Because its an issue we get our ASSES kicked on and makes us lose elections. And its a bullshit issue.

As this poll implies, I am in favor of small changes over time that SUCCEED, rather than pushing for large changes that FAIL.

We have control of House and Senate now, and I DO NOT want to BLOW future elections on these issues that could be WON SO EASILY by being flexible. Flexible, like going for "civil unions in 50 states" first, and going for "marriage" later...

[ThomCat]

55. You're asking someone else to be rational?

:rofl:

You have to manipulate a poll with leading questions and limited choices in order to get something that sort or seems to support you, and you refuse to accept that you might be wrong about anything, and you're implying that someone else is irrational?

"A fanatic is someone who only sees one solution to every problem."

"Insanity is doing the same thing repeatedly and expecting a different result."

You say you're not living in a fantasy world, but you clearly are. You really seem to think the world conforms to your wishful understanding of it.

[Nicole]

14. Choice 2

It's only controversial in today's society because too many settle for choice 1. The easy choice isn't always the best.

Until more people insist on choice 2, no compromises, we will never have equal rights for all.

[rpgamerd00d]

15. So if I offered you full-blown civil unions in 50 states, today, you'd turn it down

unless I called it marriage?

Just checking if you really meant what you said.

[Nicole]

18. Yes I would.

Why not call it what it is? A marriage.

Yes, I really meant what I said. Did you? In post #1 you were asked if this poll was about civil unions vs marriage, your reply was "Why wouldn't it apply to any right? Why restrict it?"

I took that at face value & answered accordingly. Now you say that it is about civil unions vs. marriage?

Just checking if you really meant what you said. Not that it matters, my answer is still the same. Choice 2.

[rpgamerd00d]

19. OK, so just to be sure I understand you correctly....

... today, Feb 5th, when a gay or lesbians partner dies and that person does not inherit their partners assets, their suffering is "A-OK" because "its the principle of the thing that really matters" and you are just fine sacrificing this nice person and screwing them over so you can hold out for a name change.

That about sum up your "liberal" position on this?

:puke:

[Nicole]

26. You understand nothing.....

I'm straight, I married another straight person. Any assets we purchased together we own jointly. I don't need to inherit them, they are already mine. The same would be true for gay and lesbian partners when they are married. They wouldn't lose anything.

I do see on the thread that was linked above, you seem to think you are the most liberal person here. I can't argue with that. You win. :sarcasm:

[rpgamerd00d]

29. Wow, that was pretty ignorant.

What if one gay partner was the bread winner and the other was not? What if one gay partner owned their house and savings accounts and retirement accounts first, then met their partner after?

I can't believe you'd be willing to let someone lose all rights of inheritance just because you are obsessed with a name!

:puke:

[Nicole]

31. Ignorant?

There are lots of straight, married couples with only one breadwinner. Ever hear the term "stay at home mom" or "stay at home dad"? There are lots of straight, married people who owned houses, savings accounts, etc. before marriage. They become marital assets after the marriage, their spouse becomes co-owner of those assets.

I owned my home before I was married. After I was married my husband's name was added to the deed & mortgage. It took both of us signing the papers to sell it when we bought a house together. I stayed home & raised kids. He worked and put money in a 401K plan. When we divorced I got half of that money, even though I contributed no money to it.

I can't believe you think you're so damn smart & yet you can't grasp the concept of marital assets? That being married would protect gay partners' rights to property?. Yet you have the nerve to think I'm ignorant?

Back at ya! :puke:

[rpgamerd00d]

32. Wow are you confused.

I offered all gay people EXACTLY THAT RIGHT (except calling it "marriage"), and I mean EXACTLY THAT RIGHT, TODAY, and you REFUSED TO GIVE THAT RIGHT TO THEM BECAUSE IT WASN'T CALLED MARRIAGE.

YOU SAID YOU'D RATHER HAVE A GAY/LESBIAN PERSON LOSE THEIR RIGHT OF INHERITANCE THAN ACTUALLY HAVE THAT RIGHT.

THOSE WERE YOUR WORDS.

HOW CAN YOU CALL YOURSELF A LIBERAL ?!

[Nicole]

33. No, I'm not confused. You are.

Point me to my words where I said I want them to lose their right of inheritance?

I want them to have all the rights that I do, up to & including marriage.


BTW, typing it all in caps doesn't make it true.

[rpgamerd00d]

34. Here it is:

Me: "So if I offered you full-blown civil unions in 50 states, today, you'd turn it down unless I called it marriage? Just checking if you really meant what you said."

You: "Yes I would. Why not call it what it is? A marriage. Yes, I really meant what I said."

[Nicole]

35. There it isn't.

Civil unions do NOT have all the rights that marriages do. Beginning with the name.

[rpgamerd00d]

36. I said full-blown, meaning all the rights inherent in marriage.

Sorry if that wasn't clear, and if you answered based on that error.

Ill state it over again, the proper way:

If this second, I could grant all gays and lesbian FULL MARRIAGE RIGHTS, but under the name "Civil Unions" instead of the name "Marriage", would you accept that, or decline solely over the name difference?

[uppityperson]

58. If all the rights were the same, the name would have to be the same too

otherwise all the rights would not be the same.

Separate but equal does not = equal.

[LostinVA]

41. Look at the Edwards thread, Nicole

He blamed us for homophobia, among many other things. He's framing "arguments" in a way most against the underlying principles of DU. When his arguments were shredded in the other thread, he came here.

[rpgamerd00d]

61. More lies. I never blamed you for homophobia.

Just knock off the stalking.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

70. It's all right there in the thread. And she's not stalking, but you are continuing a flamewar

with a push poll.

[LostinVA]

73. Correct -- no stalking -- I even have the OP on ignore right now

As the Mods can tell.

I was informed of this continuing flamewar push poll.

[ThomCat]

76. Yes you did.

You claimed in several responses to me that people are responsible for whatever happens to them, and in the context of a discussion about homophobia and civil rights. So it's pretty damned clear that you are saying that people who are discriminated against are responsible for that discrimination.

That is blaming GLBT people for homophobia.

And you're not being stalked. You just don't like it when people show up on a thread to point out that you're being a fool with the same opinions over and over and over again without learning anything or listening to anyone.

If you're looking for an audience that's just going to listen to your "wisdom" and nod this might not be the right place for you. This is a place for discussions, and people are going to challenge foolishness when we see it.

[rpgamerd00d]

90. Bzzzt, try again.

Those are your words, not mine.

[Name removed]

92. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Nicole]

117. Thanks LostinVA

Reading what this "King of the Liberals" really thinks proves what I suspected earlier, I was wasting my time arguing with a fool.

[ThomCat]

51. But it wouldn't be the same as marriage

except in your head.

[uppityperson]

52. I'd accept, but only if all marriges were called civil unions.

Call it what it is. Equal rights.

[Orsino]

21. False dichotomy. Waiting for a right is not acceptable.

When neither of the two choices is guaranteed to produce the end result, one need not choose.

Fight for the rights you want, but if in the meantime the chance comes for a halfway measure, you can vote for it. Think of the people who live in misery, or who may die before the rights are granted, and fight for the entire cookie, non-stop.

[rpgamerd00d]

22. That's exactly what Choice 1 is.

[Orsino]

28. Then choice 2 is implied in it.

No, the choice is a false one, and phrased to encourage us to be good little serfs and wait our turn.

[goodhue]

23. separate but equal is in fact not equal

[cgrindley]

24. False Dichotomy: marriage doesn't seem to be a right

sort of like driving or dog ownership. I say ban the cursed institution for everyone except gay people. Let them enjoy the fruits of divorce and alimony.

[porphyrian]

25. Idealism vs. Pragmatism

Idealists (at least, with regard to the agenda in question) will likely pursue the one-step, as the name is at least as important to them (if not more so) as the right, while the more pragmatic would probably take the right first and not really care so much about what it's called. Depending on the particular right, I may take either stance.

[ScreamingMeemie]

37. Choice 3: This is a push poll and I won't vote. Equal rights for all

[ThomCat]

47. You've got that right.

If you can't get everyone to bow down to your superior wisdom, reframe the issue in an indirect, manipulative way and try to con people into agreeing with you.

Then, use that agreement as a weapon to beat the snot out of those fake liberals who dared to disagree with you earlier. Or at least use it to prop up your ego and convince yourself that you know so much more than all those fake liberals who actually do things like volunteer and organize stuff.
:P

[Maven]

77. Word.

With a mindset like the OP's, I'm sure we'll get equal marriage in no time.

[LostinVA]

38. Couldn't back up your "arguments" in the other thread, eh?

So, you have to start a cutsey, side stepping poll.

Why don't you tell everyone how you blamed homophobia on GAY PEOPLE.

[bicentennial_baby]

44. Didn't you read above?

Quoting him only makes *him* look better.... :rofl:

:hi:

[LostinVA]

48. HAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHA

[ThomCat]

49. He blamed EVERYTHING on the people who get hurt by it.

So apparently, black people are responsible for racism.
And GLBT people are response for homophobia.
And women are responsible for sexism and misogyny.

And he's more of a liberal than any of us, because he said so himself several times. :eyes:

[LostinVA]

57. He even wears a Ned Lamont hat -- so there

[ThomCat]

59. See, that just proves that he knows so much more

than all the rest of us who actually, you know, do stuff. If we all just listened to him we'd have this whole discrimination thing licked in a week. Two weeks tops!
:rofl:

[LostinVA]

83. I was fired once for being gay -- I need to figure out WHY that was my fault

THEN I can be a good liberal. Hmmmm......

[ThomCat]

87. Nah, all you need to do to become a supreme liberal

is become rpggamerdisciple and hang on every bit of wisdom that comes from the bestest liberal that ever was.
:rofl:

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

89. And dump me.

I mean, we're not an interracial couple.

[LostinVA]

96. Damn, and you're even Catholic

Well, raised Catholic. Same thing.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

66. I want a hat commemorating a failed senatorial race, too.

Geez. I don't have a hat from my senator. I feel unimportant. Oh wait, my senator is a family friend.

[rpgamerd00d]

65. More lies. I never said that.

[ThomCat]

79. Yes, you did. Right here. (Link provided)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=123952&mesg_id=129178

You can't be any more blatant than that. :rofl:

[rpgamerd00d]

93. Thanks, that proves you lied.

[ThomCat]

94. ROFL

d00d, did you read your own post? You blame a lesbian who fights for marriage equality for the prejudices that prevent that equality.

And then there was
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=123952&mesg_id=129274
And then you tried to parse it here
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=123952&mesg_id=129351

That entire thread is a goldmine of you blaming people.

[uppityperson]

95. try this one " Everyone is responsible for their own life. Period."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=123952&mesg_id=129274

[uppityperson]

71. Exactly, everything that happens to anyone is their own fault.

Everyone is responsible for what happens to them. If you didn't want to be oppressed, you'd not have been born who you were. You chose to come into this world in this body and this situation and it's all your fault!

I get it. Amazing.

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ScreamingMeemie]

69. Responding to posts (controversial, push polling posts at that) is not

stalking. Stalking is following someone around and harassing them in every thread they participate in. I have no idea where you have been today...other than that thread, and this silly poll. You bet your bippy, if you post something like this here in GD I will respond.

[LostinVA]

78. Thank you -- exactly

Someone is just trying to close down people who disagree with him. Too bad he can't block us, because we are allowed to respond TO THREADS HE HIMSELF POSTS.

[ThomCat]

81. Again, yes you did. (Link provided)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=123952&mesg_id=129178

If you're going to post rediculous stuff, and then deny that you ever posted it, you should remember that DU is searchable. Anyone, at any time, can go back and see what you have said before. Quotes are eternal.

:rofl:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

40. I Must Admit That I Care About Nothing Else Other Than Everyone Having Equal Rights Under Law.

[LostinVA]

43. Post an honest poll -- marriage or civil unions

Dressing it up in this abstract, impersonal way.

Jesus.

[ThomCat]

45. Wow.

Trying to rehash the marriage vs civil union debate.

But without being upfront about it. And when you were called on it in the first post you dance around it.

Just, wow.

You clearly think that your simplified understanding is all there is. You just insist on being right. Why don't you go do some volunteer work somewhere and figure out how things actually work?

I'd choose option 3, get together with as many serious allies as I could find, map out some strategies based on all available (real world) information, and then fight like hell to implement them as thoroughly as possible.

[rpgamerd00d]

72. Hows your strategy workin for ya so far?

*crickets*

[ThomCat]

82. We've accomplished far more than you will.

:)

But thank you for trying.

[ScreamingMeemie]

84. Well...if you add up all the people who refuse to vote...I think you are losing

badly even. :hi:

[Maven]

85. 1 state down, 49 to go.

Next up: New York.

Care to help, or just stand on the sidelines and tell us we deserve less?

[uppityperson]

53. Too bad the choices you give don't relate to the real situation.

quoting you "makes you look better"? oh.my.god.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

62. so why dont you give up your right to marriage and get civil unionized instead

such fucking bullshit.

[Duncan Grant]

74. This is not a civil rights poll.

You're doing advocacy "research" in order to legitimize your own personal biases, imho.

Why should the legal benefits of a civil contract like marriage be any different than a driver's license, the right to vote, etc. We wouldn't call my driver's license and your driver's license by different names, why so with marriage?

As far as churches are concerned: I couldn't care less. I don't need them to sanction my relationship. Their role in a civil issue like this should be minimal, at best.

Personally speaking, I'd rather not manipulate the dominant culture with words that make them feel more comfortable. Call it what it is: marriage. If that makes some people's sphincter clinch, so be it.

[LostinVA]

88. Great post!

[Bluebear]

113. kick

[uppityperson]

80. #1-get 1/2 of rights, #2-try to get equal for all and get no rights. What a choice.

Neither. I chose work on equal rights for all since getting partially equal rights is no equal rights. I also chose to not not try because I might fail (yes, that is a double negative.

[cboy4]

86. Why does it need a different name? Is this because a majority

of Americans have a learning disability and don't have the ability to process the information?

Another just sit in the back of the bus and shut up poll.

[Bluebear]

91. Holy mackerel, could this be any more of a thinly veiled push poll? nt

[demrabble]

97. Isn't This a Duplicate Thread?

I thought that there was another poll asking questions about civil unions and marriage.

So why this poll?

[LostinVA]

99. My poll asks about civil unions and marriage equality

THis poll is about Intellectual Masturbation.

[rpgamerd00d]

100. poll

22 - 17

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

101. It's a poorly written push poll. It means nothing.

[ScreamingMeemie]

111. Poll...28 that I counted that stated they wouldn't vote for various reasons

but the most intriguing being that it was a push poll. :hi:

[demrabble]

106. You're Quite Correct

I'm sorry to have insulted you and you most excellent poll.

If there were a poll that asked whether this poll or your poll was a better poll, I'd vote for your poll.

[LostinVA]

108. No worries -- I was just explaining

It's just the usual GD insanity.

[uppityperson]

109. I wonder if anyone should start a poll asking which poll is better?

[demrabble]

110. Dueling Polls?

If both were from Warsaw, we'd have dueling Poles.

Or, if we were to debate whether it would be better to be at 90 degrees North or 90 degrees South, we'd have dueling Poles.

[uppityperson]

112. Dueling Pauls maybe

VS

[LostinVA]

102. His latest push poll

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x132435

[mondo joe]

103. You are confused. The ONLY reason civil unions is even under consideration is

that we fought for marriage.

[Bucky]

107. I'm in the "pro-futile, empty gesture going down with the ship" camp.

But then I'm not objective. I take civil rights very personally.

[fishwax]

116. Civil Unions aren't the same as marriage, and we're no closer to civil unions in

some places than we are to gay marriage.