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itsrobert Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-11-07 12:39 AM
Original message
Wake up! the Air Force is being cut to the bone
Bush administration is cutting the Air Force by 12,000 over the next 12 months. The Air Force is our first line of defense and first offense in Air and Space, not to mention Airlift for wartime and peacetime (ie Natural Diaster, man-made diasters).

Cutting the Air Force is penny wise and pound foolish.

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rsmith6621 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-11-07 12:40 AM
Response to Original message
1. link
please
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itsrobert Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-11-07 12:46 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. link
http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2007/07/airforce_forceshaping_2008_070710/

"The Air Force expects to end fiscal 2007 with about 334,000 active-duty airmen, 12,000 fewer positions than the service started the year with. By the end of 2009, the Air Force’s stated goal is to have the active-duty force down to 315,000 positions.

While Air Force leaders and some congressmen have said the Air Force will need more airmen to support to the growing Army and Marine Corps, no one has offered firm numbers on how many positions the Air Force will need or how they will be paid for."



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sakabatou Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-11-07 12:47 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. Who doesn't support the troops now?
~_^
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Chomskyite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-11-07 12:43 AM
Response to Original message
2. I guess they figure
. . . they'll put the money into Navy carrier groups, the better to fight Iran with.
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murielm99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-11-07 12:56 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. Maybe they figure
that if they cut our first line of defense, they can make the next MIHOP/LIHOP easier.

They keep talking about the next big one. I would not put anything past them.
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sakabatou Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-11-07 12:46 AM
Response to Original message
4. linky?
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Contrary1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-11-07 01:00 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. Here:
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Angleae Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-11-07 01:04 AM
Response to Original message
8. Read about this a few months ago
It said they were making these cuts so there was more money in the budget for their new toys (F-22, F-35)
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newyawker99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-11-07 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #8
23. Hi Angleae!!
Welcome to DU!! :toast:
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lovuian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-11-07 01:07 AM
Response to Original message
9. A friend in the air force is overseas in a hot dusty place
working 6 12 hour days

Its brutal

they are using sirforce for army support
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-11-07 01:10 AM
Response to Original message
10. Well, if our Air Force is our "first line of defense" and so important to our
national security, maybe they would explain to us where the hell they were on 9/11, and who gave them the order to stand down.

It's the only time we have been attacked on our own soil since Pearl Harbor. It was an air attack. Where was the Air Force? In fact, when was the last time any of the U.S. military actually defended us? Their generals and admirals are off kissing corporate butt and helping them cook up unnecessary, illegal, heinous wars, to justify their own existence, and to keep the US taxpayer milk train rolling, and to earn themselves positions on war profiteer boards of directors after they retire. "Defense" Department, my ass! Slaughtering 2 million people in Southeast Asia, and half a million people so far in Iraq, "defended" us against WHAT? This is an assault machine--a military machine for aggressive war.

And then when the crunch comes, when we actually do get attacked, their entire air defense system breaks down on that day, and on that day only. We have a right to an explanation. We have a right to know where Donald Rumsfeld really was during the critical hour ("In a meeting," he said, unaware that the WTC had fallen and two planes had made U-turns and were headed for DC--give me a break), and why he pulled all NORAD decisions into his own hands six months before 9/11, and then went AWOL during the attack.

Where are the AF whistleblowers and truthtellers to explain to us what we're giving them these billions and billions of dollars FOR, when they can't even get AF jets off the ground during an attack, and can't even follow line one of standard operating procedures for that emergency. And what the hell was this "exercise" they just happened to be doing that very day, "simulating" hijackings? Who gave that order? And who the hell was that novice commander they put in charge of NORAD on that day, and that day only?

We can do without such an Air Force that knows how to bomb tens of thousands of innocent people, and not give a fuck what they are doing, and can't locate two commercial jets aiming to destroy our capital city. Kids with peashooters would be more useful. I don't think they should get another penny from us until they explain themselves. What really happened that day and WHO IS RESPONSIBLE for that massive failure of national security?
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Lex1775 Donating Member (314 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-11-07 01:42 AM
Response to Reply #10
17. To answer your question...
Air Force CONUS (CONtinental United States) defense doctrine was never designed to intercept threats that were already inside US airspace. The assumption had always been that any aircraft intent on attacking targets within the US would do so from an outside location and we would have time to react. If you look at a map of US Air Force bases that host fighter squadrons you will see that there are very few of them deep in the interior of the continent, most of them are toward the coastlines, so they can intercept incoming aircraft far out over the oceans.

As far as scrambling aircraft to intercept the airliners there are a couple of problems:

A) Due to contrary belief the USAF does NOT keep combat armed fighter aircraft on round the clock alert inside CONUS. That went out the window when the Soviet Union collapsed. The only place where we still do that (or did, before 9/11) was South Korea, the Middle East and certain bases in Europe and Alaska.

B) 9/11 was such a massive cluster fuck in the skyway's that any aircraft that they may have managed to launch, that would have been effective, were literally presented with hundreds of possible targets spread out over hundreds of miles of sky. Relaying the information from civilian run air traffic control centers to a military chain of command that could give the aircraft the proper authorization to shoot down a passenger filled airliner would've been, and probably still is, a logistical and communications nightmare.

C) It takes TIME to launch an intercept sortie, especially from a "cold start". CONUS fighters aren't sitting on the flight line armed to the teeth. These weapons are also not simply laying around, they have to be pulled out of armories, delivered to the aircraft, the aircraft have to be prepped, the pilots have to be briefed, the ground crews have to be briefed, etc, etc, etc. More time.

From someone who spent many, many years in the USAF and was quite intimately involved in fighter operations while I was in trust me when I say this (however much it pains me), the USAF was simply caught flat footed. It was never truly believed that we would have to run intercept missions within CONUS without actually having a forewarning. Plain and simple.

Historical side note. The Department of Defense was created in 1947 by Harry Truman (Democrat), before that it was called the Department of War or the War Department. Part of the reason why the name was changed was so that it wouldn't sound so violent. In retrospect, that was probably a bad idea, people don't identify with the word "Defense" like they do "War".
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-11-07 03:06 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. You are using the doublespeak that Cheney used. I am not asking, why didn't
they shoot these aircraft down? I am asking why they didn't follow line one of NORAD standard operating procedure for hijacked aircraft, which is to get AF jets in the air next to the hijacked plane for observation, visual contact with the pilot, and THEN, the NEXT steps can occur, escorting the plane down, if it was a communications failure or some other emergency, or shooting it down, if it was hijacked and was a threat to a large population center. They did not do step one. Why? They'd done it before many times.

And what of my other questions? Rumsfeld being AWOL, after pulling all NORAD decisions into his own hands six months before. And this massive "exercise" of "simulated" hijackings that they just happened to be doing on that very day--a seeming set up for deliberate confusion. Who ordered it? And what of the NORAD commander being replaced that morning, and that morning only, by an inexperienced person? As for NORAD and AF readiness being "aimed" an incoming threats, that is nonsense. Hijacking of civilian aircraft is THE major threat to air safety. NORAD/AF therefore has standard procedures that have been worked up over a long period of time, and that have operated without a hitch until 9/11, and they were all violated on that day, and on that day only.

The AF jets that were finally gotten into the air operated at half speed, and were misdirected. They were sent to New York AFTER the towers were hit, and were NOT directed toward the remaining two hijacked planes in the air.

I'm sorry, but you have not allayed my suspicion that NORAD and the AF were deliberately befuddled and made "incompetent" that day, for causes unknown, and by persons unknown. "Incompetence" is the Bush Junta first line of defense on many other matters--for instance, Katrina (first no-bid contract to Halliburton, after FEMA failed, due to "incompetence"); and the Iraq civil war (numerous no-bid contracts to Halliburton, Blackwater and many other war profiteers, after the Pentagon's occupation plans failed, resulting in chaos, looting, and tribal warfare, failures that have been attributed to NeoCon stupidity and "incompetence," but that created prime conditions for the looting of the U.S. treasury).

You've got four commercial aircraft off course and not responding. Two of them crash into the World Trade Center. In the following hour, the two remaining off course, non-responding and presumed hijacked aircraft make U-turns back to DC, and neither of them has a USAF escort anywhere near them?

Not credible. Not normal. Not standard. And needing a full inquiry until that breach of national security is completely understood and those responsible are in jail. And if I were king of Congress, they would not get another penny until this occurred.

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Lex1775 Donating Member (314 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-11-07 04:16 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. I'm trying to explain...
... Why the belief that you have that this could've been handled in a "standard" manner is off center. Sure they could've put planes in the air to observe what was going on. But how do you FORCE them to land? Remember my last post, at the time there were NO armed fighters sitting on the ground on any base within launching range of the hijacked airliners. That means any aircraft that was scrambled without armaments would have no way of forcing any of the airliners down. So, where does that leave us... we didn't KNOW the intentions of the hijackers, they could've been doing what most hijackers do, fly off to a sympathetic country and hold hostages. At the very least both Towers would've probably been hit, even with a fighter riding off the wing. The only chance an unarmed F-16 would have to knock out a Boeing passenger aircraft would be to ram it.

You also answered your own question about the miscommunication, the only fighters to get airborne were directed towards New York City. Why? Because that was the only city (at the time) where an actual attack took place. It was reactionary defense, a classic defensive problem. You rush your available forces to a place where an attack has happened on the assumption that it will continue to be attacked. Remember, the distances you are talking about are HUGE. A fighter aircraft, especially an F-16, does not have the fuel capacity to go zipping up and down the eastern seaboard of the United States. Which is where this whole line of "they were only operating at half speed" goes. They had to be operating at slower speeds because they had to conserve fuel UNTIL they were directed to where they needed to be. It was a breakdown in communications. Too much chaos and as you have pointed out, to many gaps in the Chain of Command. Case in point: Luke Air Force Base, in the suburbs of Phoenix Arizona is home to the USAF's F-16 Fighter Training School. There are more than two hundred F-16's located at Luke. Now, two of the squadrons are foreign, which means they cannot be used inside CONUS, outside of training missions. The rest of the USAF squadrons are all primarily focused on training, however, Luke did retain (at the time) a single squadron of F-16's that were fully combat oriented... but they were a USAF Reserve Wing. Even so, Luke still retains a sizable live ordinance stockpile and all the instructor pilots are combat qualified. From the time the first warning went out it took the squadrons at Luke nearly THREE HOURS to put a Combat Air Patrol over the city of Phoenix. Why? Because no one told them to. There were literally dozens of pilots and hundreds of ground crew sitting around TV's watching everything happen just like Joe and Jane Six-pack on the street and not a SINGLE AIRCRAFT on the ramp was being loaded with live munitions or even being spooled up to take off unarmed, just as a set of eyes in the sky. Total and utter communications breakdown. The PENTAGON had already been hit when the first word went out to the Command and Control section of Luke to put SOMETHING in the air over Phoenix... and as many other southwestern cities as they could reach. That is just one base. It happened all over the continental US.

Also, I hate to say it, but you have been misinformed about the AF and NORAD's defense attitude towards CONUS. A single hijacked airliner, pre-9/11, was NEVER considered the primary threat to air safety in the US. I don't know who is telling you that, but they are wrong. The Air Forces primary mission when it comes to defending the continental US is interception of inbound aircraft from outside our airspace. You can go back all the way to the end of World War II and see the doctrine in action. The reason why a hijacked airliner was never considered a high threat was, up until 9/11, none of them had ever been used as a guided weapon. They were either flown to a foreign country, as I've mentioned before, or they were blown up in mid-air. I participated in hundreds of wargames during my time in the service and every one of them that happened at a CONUS base involved intercepting incoming aircraft from outside of our borders. Not once did we ever practice intercepting a multitude of hijacked airliners inside of our own borders, it just wasn't a threat that was taken seriously.

Look, I'm not saying that there aren't some pretty questionable events that went down that day. There are. And there are holes in the official story that have never been effectively explained. BUT, a lot of what happened happened because the main body of the USAF and NORAD was simply unprepared and caught flat footed by what went down. Maybe someone did get the massive ball of confusion rolling... but that is all they needed to do, once it started rolling the "system" imploded on itself. Go find an air traffic controller and ask them what the airways over the US are like. It is utter insanity. Airplanes are constantly traveling in and out of your airspace, being handed off to you by a controller in one city while you hand off an aircraft to a controller in another, there are blind spots in the radar coverage INSIDE the continental United States... the list goes on and on. A tiny bit of confusion at the top will turn into an avalanche of confusion as it travels down through the chain. The result you get is what happened on 9/11. An Air Force that was simply not prepared to handle the situation that was happening. We were reactive instead of proactive, and it hurt us bad.
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seriousstan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-11-07 01:17 AM
Response to Original message
11. Considering UAVs, a 4% cut is hardly to the bone.
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poverlay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-11-07 01:18 AM
Response to Original message
12. One of the most truly tragic parts of the whole Bush crime syndicate is that they have used and
abused the military so shamelessly, carelessly, and brutally, and in every manner imaginable. It is a testament to the strength, flexibility, and dedication of the U.S. armed forces that they haven't either fallen apart, fallen into uselessnes, or simply initiated a coup to oust the canker of this hellish administration....

:rant:

(Did I possibly use too many adjectives?)

Anyway, It breaks my heart so I thought I'd bitch a bit.

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Chipper Chat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-11-07 01:24 AM
Response to Reply #12
15. But the 29% keeps screaming it's the democrats that hate Murca.
Duncan Hunter says Clinton decimated our military.
Cheney says if a democrat is elected we may as well surrender to Al Queda.
Ann Coulter says all liberals are pussies.

Forked-tongue-speaking ostriches with their heads in the sand - all of them.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-11-07 01:21 AM
Response to Original message
13. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-11-07 01:24 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. Read the preface of the Constitution
you are in for a surprise

the military is PART OF THE COMMONS

Oh and welcome to DU, as short as your stay might be
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-11-07 01:24 AM
Response to Original message
16. Our bloated military is being cut? Awwwwww.....
I wish they'd "cut" when I was in.
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-11-07 03:14 AM
Response to Original message
19. It's only foolish if you want to DEFEND America. Get it?
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sanskritwarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-11-07 04:51 AM
Response to Original message
21. Actually the Air Force is way overmanned
and more Fraud Waste and Abuse charges are brought against the Air Force than all other services combined. The Air Force is in the pockets of Defense Contractors more than any other branch and frankly they have way too many aircraft ill suited for the wars we are most likely to face. I side with General Clark's idea to farm out the Air Force to the Navy for Strategic missions and the Army for tactical............
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LastLiberal in PalmSprings Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-11-07 05:00 AM
Response to Original message
22. Many of the military's functions are being privatized
Here's the Cato Institute's take on it: Privatizing Military Maintenance

From the Rand Corporation: Privatizing Military Production

From the conservative website American Voice 2004: Issues and Allegations: Military Privatization

How about privatizing military utility systems? Or military housing?

Even Ted Koppel has weighed in on the subject.

I think we're all familiar with the existence of Blackwater, and all the good they did in New Orleans.

I once read that the Democrats view the purpose of the military as being to defend the United States against attacks by enemies, and the Republicans view the military's purpose as protecting their investments overseas. This was confirmed during the 2000 elections, when Bush kept referring to the importance of using the military to "defend national interests" in other countries. I think the illegal attack on Iraq is the best example of this ideology.

Eventually it will all be privatized, if the Repugs have their way. Other than the actual fighting (which will be done by the poor and immigrants), every other military function will be run by corporations, and the ongoing rape of our country for the benefit of the 1% will continue.

By the way, did you hear on the news that Nicole Richie is pregnant? Now THAT's important!

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