'Nobody Goes to Hell': Minister Labeled a Heretic

[deadparrot]

Virtually every religion throughout human history has some notion of a horrible life after death. And though the threat of fire and brimstone is not preached as fervently in this age of reason, one man in Tulsa, Okla., knows just how hard it is for modern believers -- and their religious institutions -- to let go of the medieval vision of hell.

"If I say everybody's going to heaven, then I can't raise money from you to get me to keep people out of hell," Carlton Pearson said with a wry smile.

He knows firsthand that when it comes to filling pews, hell sells. And when he stopped believing in it, he lost an evangelical empire built over a lifetime.

"My dad was preacher, his dad was preacher," he said. "Tongue talkin', pew jumpin', holiness, hellfire and brimstone."

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=3362554&page=1&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312

[Critters2]

1. This is kind of old news

This happened some time ago.

Carlton Pearson and Higher Dimensions Church have joined the United Church of Christ, which seems like a good fit.

[Double T]

2. Since we're ALL going to heaven, let the fun begin!!

:evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin:

[Maat]

6. Except you, Double T!

Just kidding, the only one whose going is ... Cheney (and maybe some of his close friends).

;-)

I'm glad that preacher hooked up with United Church of Christ - they are my brothers and sisters in the local weely peace vigil.

I'm a Unitarian-Universalist myself, and I incorporate New Thought philosophy into my daily routine.

We believe, at the local peace vigil, that we are all one, each on his/her unique path.

(New Thought:)
(Links:)

http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/nrms/Newthoug.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Thought

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Thought_Movement

[Double T]

10. Pagan here.

One with the earth, nature and the cosmos.

[Maat]

11. My ten-year-old is a Pagan.

She's decided that anyway. So, we are studying it!

We have quite a few Pagans at our UU church.

That is so cool!

[Raksha]

13. With a name like Maat I thought YOU were a pagan

and assumed she got it from you. Understand that I am not putting down on ya...I just got back from my first Witchcamp (pagan retreat or intensive) and I'll never be the same! For the record, it's very much a change for the better.

[Maat]

18. Great! I'm glad you went!

My buddies named me "Maat" because I went through law school, and am really into the justice movement (Maat was into justice, too!)!

I'm truly a Universalist, who enjoys incorporating wisdom from various philosophies and faiths (finding it in a variety of places).

It seems as if our differences are somewhat illusory; I've told my daughter that one manifests Spirit (One) the way one chooses at any one time, and that's a good thing! I believe that we are each part of the One, and that we are one with Earth, Sky and Cosmos. We are all One.

If she enjoys dragons, and she has a really large collection, then she can feel that protective dragon at her side any time that she wants!

P.S. We really are into the environmental movement, so, I refer to Spirit ("God") as "Grandmother Earth, Grandfather Sky" much of the time. I was close to my grandparents, so that's why I like incorporating that into it. We've made quite a few changes; we traded in my old car for a Prius, and our pool is heated with solar energy. We're making more changes every day. We got rid of the commute (we work out of the house, and we recycle like mad). I guess we all have to keep on making those changes.

[0007]

32. Does the UU church have the same doctrine as the "The Round Church"?

[Maat]

37. I'm going to have to check that out.

What is 'The Round Church?" I'll check it out.

Check out www.uua.org .

[0007]

41. The "Round Church" is the church where the devil can't get 'ya in a corner. nt

[Maat]

46. Hmmm ... (n/t)

[0007]

47. I'm sorry. I just couldn't pass it up. LOL!

[Maat]

48. HeeHee (n/t).

[GreenPartyVoter]

38. Universalist generally means everyone goes to heaven. Some churches hold to

an accountability measure, like purgatory, but everyone does get to heaven at some point.

[Warpy]

3. Folks won't take the trouble to earn their way into heaven

but they don't seem to mind bribing their way out of hell.

The good Reverend has hit on a basic human truth.

[Az]

4. That is the Universalist notion

It is based on the idea that when Jesus died for everyone's sins he meant everyone's sins. No strings attached. No secret handshakes. Infinite mercy means infinite mercy. That sort of thing.

[Maat]

7. Infinite mercy DOES mean ... infinite mercy.

Remember the old UU saying, "All are saved?"

[Bluerthanblue]

35. you got it-!! and

i believe that everyone is going on to the next adventure.

The bible has so many contradicting passages, even it has passages that have room to encompass this view.

My own personal take on it, is that if we really adopt Jesus' perspective, then everyone will be there- If we sincerly and honestly lived as if "we" were "them" no one would harbor grudges, wish others harm, or sit idle while others suffered, hungered, or were in "need". All that drives us to be self-ish, would be moot.

peace,
blu

[More Than A Feeling]

5. That's great, now if he'd only ask himself why he thinks that there is an afterlife at all,

, or a soul, he'd really be getting somewhere!

[SammyWinstonJack]

8. ...

:thumbsup:

[Maat]

9. There's an afterlife ..

and I haven't decided whether or not I'm going to come back in a different incarnation or stay awhile in the Higher Consciousness.

HeeHee.

;-)

[More Than A Feeling]

12. No dualism for me, thanks.

Mind and the physical brain are the same thing. When the brain dies, everything that is us goes with it.

[Maat]

19. Okay!

HeeHee.

That's your own wonderful, unique path, and I honor it!

[More Than A Feeling]

20. What does it mean to say that you "honor my path?" n/t

[Maat]

21. Well, I'd say that I appreciate the special person that you are.

I believe that each person is unique and special and contributes. I believe that we each are creators of our own unique experience, and are there to experience for the One. I believe that there are an infinite numbers of ways to do that, and all are equally valid.

Hope that helps! I tried to explain my views as clearly as possible.

To each his own!


:hi:

[More Than A Feeling]

22. You're talking about basic human dignity, aren't you?

I'll bet talking about "all experiences being equally valid" confuses some people into thinking that you are saying that everyone's ideas are right, even the ones that are contradictory or abhorrent. But that's not what you are saying, is it?

[Maat]

23. Yes, you are correct .... I am talking about basic human dignity.

We talked last time in UU church about being Universalists. The old way of expressing that used to be, "All are saved." Another way of saying that is a UU principle talking about every human's right to be treated with dignity and respect, and being a being of value. I make myself treat each individual with a basic amount of dignity and respect, no matter what I am feeling emotionally. I got lots of practice when I was a social worker.

Some are easier to treat with respect than others. My hubby happens to be a KIND, empathetic atheist (who studies the Tao). He's my hero, and has no problems with me exploring different belief systems, and teaching our daughter about different philosophies, with that respect caveat.

I certainly don't believe that everyone's ideas are 'right.' When I find ideas to be abhorent (e.g. those of Fred Phelps), I try to direct myself away from uncontrolled-anger/judgmentalness, and direct myself more towards discernment (that is not the path for me; I want to be a part of the Consciousness of Kindness and Peace). That's for my mental health - so that I can be effective with my deeds ("deeds, not creeds, as we say in UU).

Have a good night! I'm getting way to tired to figure out the Meaning of Life. HeeHee.

[More Than A Feeling]

25. discernment= analysis without excessive emotion?

I like what you've got to say (though I have to say, the way you speak makes it hard to understand you properly, so that I don't end up criticizing you for things you don't actually mean).
-
It's funny, I wonder how many atheists are either Lao Tzu-influenced, or Buddha-influenced (I'm the latter), both seem to be popular.
-
I didn't realize atheists needed their kindness emphasized:)
-
What are your thoughts on situations where people are try to put forth unsupported, fantastic ideas, then complain about a lack of respect when people point out that they are unsupported and fantastic?

Personally, I think people cheapen the idea of respect when they do it, and ruin it for everyone else. People who are interested in challenging widely held ideas might start seeing every person's desire for respect as a similar situation, and hosts of misunderstandings ensue.

[Maat]

30. Well, I always give a modicum of respect to MOST ideas also.

I look for human kindness in anyone; I tend to stop associating with those who I feel are unkind, or completely lacking in human empathy.

I have suggested to my husband that he say, "Those are just not my beliefs." to a conservative Christian, rather than calling them dumb. He's agreed not to confront people with the terms "mythical" or "fantastic," except to say that's how HE, PERSONALLY, views certain ideas. We kind of had to go to that; otherwise, Papa (his dad) would have kept hanging up the telephone on him. I'd like those two to get along, at least, for I'm not welcome back there, in that small town, as it is (I told them I enjoy riding in the Gay Pride Parade, with our daughter, as part of PFLAG; that did it).

I believe in assertive communication. I would have gotten fired my first day as a social worker if I hadn't. We really studied assertive communication in my Master's program (in Psychology). I tend to validate at least a bit of what the other person is saying; then, we can build a bridge from there. When you really listen, and validate, then you have the speaker where you need him or her to be. It's just smart, and you learn that as part of 'negotiation' in law school. If I think that I can't work with someone, then I bring someone else into the picture who can.

I tend to use lingo from like-minded people. We understand each other, but you are helping to understand how others view the terms.

My husband loves studying the teachings of Lao Tzu.

I, personally, enjoy studying the Buddha-influenced. The only idea I don't especially like there, and it is contained in other faiths, is the idea that you want to get off the Wheel. I actually want to keep coming back in various incarnations. I find life very interesting.

I have spent several years researching the Religious Hardright, and am an active member in Americans United for Separation of Church and State. I just believe deeply, in my heart, that atheists, Liberal Christians, and others progressively-minded must band together to address this Ultra-right Religious Bloc. Towards that end, we have to be respectful towards each other, and work together well.

For example, I don't mind it when an Americans United friends says something like, "I just can't get my head around the idea of a deity. That seems too mythical to me." Cool. I might say, "I feel a helpful presence in my heart, and that surrounds me, that transcends life as we know it. I can't get used to the idea of there being no universal consciousness, or power." The listener might respond that she can't 'hang with that.' Then, it's all good. We agree to disagree on certain matters. We can have a respectful discussion, and chit-chat. We can work together. That's just my two cents' about how progressives should behave. The URB (Ultra-right Religious Bloc) has a VERY efficient political machine; we cannot afford to offend each other, and be divided. We need to work together.

It's been fun discussing things with you. You've been very respectful. If every thread was like this, I'd go back to the R/T forum.

[More Than A Feeling]

31. I'm in law school right now. Which school did you go to?

I was going to take negotiations, but I dropped it in favor of the prerequisite class for the moot court competition.
-
"Fantastic" is pretty much the nicest way I can think of to describe it.
-
My girlfriend (still American Baptist, which I used to be to. We met at church) and I handle it by not talking about it, for the most part.
-
That's why I only call myself Buddha-influenced, rather than a Buddhist (also, i don't meditate enough). I don't buy reincarnation. Whereas I buy 95% of the Humanist Manifesto II, so Humanist is what I call myself.
-
Sure, all those people can work together, and should. I agree with that. We have a common goal. But it helps if there can be agreement that the celebration of "faith" as a way to knowledge and a foundation for political decision-making is part of the problem, not a solution.
-
I have enjoyed this as well.

[Maat]

36. I initially went to University of La Verne in Ontario, Ca.

Then, I finished up at a tiny school run by a retired judge (who we all respect) called California Southern. Law school is the greatest thing one can for oneself (or one of the greatest). It opens up so much for further exploration. I'm a middle-aged, married mom, and I don't really thing that I want to practice law. My daughter goes to a hybrid charter school program, in which she attends school a few days per week, and we work on a packet (homeschool) the rest of the week. It's been a lifesaver for us (she doesn't do well in the conventional classroom). So, I spend time teaching. Getting the real estate license, and pursuing a broker's license has been the ticket for me (they waive many of the typical requirements with a law degree; but, law school is great, isn't it?

For 'mixed' couples (HeeHee - one an atheist, one not, or whatever), I really recommend the Unitarian-Universalist church, particularly when the couple has/adopts kids. Something you might think about for the future. There's no mention of a deity in the service, and we all go do our own thing, otherwise (in groups, etc.). The kids grow up willing to explore all philosophies, and yet dedicated to peace and community service.

To me, conflict resolution, mediation, assertive communication, and negotiation are really related. They are about achieving a deal that everyone likes.

Wow, I'm proud of you for participating in Moot Court; it never was my thing. I really hope you tell me about your graduation, and passing the bar one day!

I really celebrate 'faith' privately, or with a small circle of friends, and it is a factor in my decision-making only in so far as it shapes my everyday belief system; but, I'm so 'live and let live' that my 'faith' has really only encouraged me to be less judgmental, and less overly emotional (due to having to be right or excessive judgmentalness).

I believe we agree that government and policymaking should occur completely without reference to religion; but, that's what Americans United for Separation of Church and State is all about. Rev. Barry Lynn is both a lawyer and an ordained minister. He lays out how believers and nonbelievers can work together to effect a secular government in his book, "Piety and Politics." I really recommend it; but, you're in law school, and probably don't have a life right now (HeeHee). But you will again soon!

Take care! You will NEVER regret having taken the time to get through law school - no matter what.

[spoony]

26. You err in considering this a concession

that you can somehow "build on" to make him "enlightened." It's a part of his religion, mine as well, and it in no way lessens the amount of religious belief a person holds just because they don't follow a particular interpretation of said religion.

In other words, it is not a move toward your position.

[More Than A Feeling]

28. On the contrary, he and I now agree a little more than we did

before he decided that nobody went to hell. I fully agree with him on that. There is no reason to believe that anyone goes to hell.

[spoony]

29. Not really, this falls along the same

inane line as atheists only believing in one less god than xyz.

People think it cute when they say it, but it doesn't actually mean anything.

In this case, it was not a decision made for your satisfaction or convenience, though you may appreciate it for whatever reason you have no cause to celebrate it as though it's some unravelling of his beliefs.

If you send back a dish for being under-seasoned, and I send the same back for being too salty, that is not moving toward a consensus.

[BlooInBloo]

14. Goats go to hell. Cake told me so.

[shadowknows69]

15. You know who invented Hell?

Dante and Milton. The Christians adopted it.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

16. A Universalist -- get him to a UU church.

[Danieljay]

17. He's coming to Portland Oregon the end of this month, the man is awesome....

http://www.ntmo.org

You can click on the link to sign up.

[Swamp Rat]

24. There is a Hell. Just ask Tinky Falwell...

:D



Jesus was called a heretic, among other things, by the Pharisees.

The Pharisees of today, x-tians, would kill Jesus on sight if he came back... maybe they already did.

[More Than A Feeling]

27. You're back!

That's wonderful, welcome back! :bounce:

[0007]

33. Didn't he throw an 'ace deuce' or was it Pat baby? nt

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

34. Is sex allowed in heaven?

As Mark Twain pointed out, the preachers never mention sex in heaven. Which, being one of humanity's greatest pleasures seems to go unadvertised as one of the offerings of paradise.

Or, are we to content ourselves for eternity singing psalms and and listening to preachers.

"Heaven for the climate, Hell for the conversation." - Mark Twain

[JVS]

39. He is a heretic.

[alphafemale]

40. I think it was on 60 Minutes where he was talking out his "Heretic Awakening"

He was watching a news program about a famine/genocide somewhere in Africa, where the people dying were non-Christian, and in his mind he thought "Because they are unsaved these thousands of people are suffering here, and are also doomed to an eternity in Hell."

But then, what he believed to be the voice of god said, "Do you really think I'd do that?"

His story's been on NPR also, "This American Life," I think.

[Fire Walk With Me]

42. The concept of zero responsibility has given us people like Bush and friends.

It will become an even more attractive message in the future.

It is extremely dangerous and dangerously misleading.

[Fire Walk With Me]

43. How can I talk about the future on this topic?

I've already seen "spiritual" literature invoking God that preaches complete non-responsibility. It's popular stuff. It's complete subterfuge. And it promises that its message will become more and more popular.

[More Than A Feeling]

44. Ideas do have consequences, but do you really

think that the fear of hell is stopping anyone from doing anything?

[Fire Walk With Me]

45. Quite obviously no.

Which is why it's easy to observe that things will get worse. Bush and friends have figured out that the only people that can stop them are other countries' war machines. And that they probably won't want to go that route.