Germany: "America is in fast decline". (The Washington Note)

[kansasblue]

From Germany: "there is widespread regret that America has slipped off its pedestal as a largely benign superpower that promoted liberty and economic opportunity."

"And the Germans are angry at Bush and America as a whole for so badly screwing up a number of collective efforts -- particularly on climate change -- but also in the Middle East."

http://www.thewashingtonnote.com/archives/002220.php

[shanti]

1. this has all been planned

by the illuminati...they want to "even us all out". all part of the new world order.

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SammyWinstonJack]

6. "this has all been planned" I am sure of that. BFEE et al.

[formercia]

35. You can't have wealthy serfs and poor serfs

they all have to be poor.

[Raskolnik]

65. fnord

[AndyTiedye]

2. Americans Are Angry At Bush Too, For All The Same Reasons And Then Some!

[melody]

15. All the people who've hated Americans still hate us, this is just a new reason

And it is the people who are hated by those sectors ... Bush is just a new excuse.

[Richard Steele]

31. But that demographic has been joined by a lot of folks who LIKED us just a few years ago.

[madokie]

33. I'm a thinking you're right

it'll take many years be for the rash on our reputation is, if ever, removed

[Karenina]

56. And A-W-A-Y we go!!!!!

:rofl::evilgrin::rofl:

[Swamp Rat]

4. I agree

[Phredicles]

5. Germany has at least 10x the prestige of the US now and will soon be

more powerful at this rate.

Grandpa Prescott would be so happy and proud of his spawn.

[SammyWinstonJack]

9. No Prescott bu$h wouldn't be happy with progressive Germany, not at all.

[melody]

14. The assumption is that Germany will continue to be progressive

Now that they've taken the power away from the reins of those dirty heathen commoners, well ...

[Raskolnik]

67. Soon? Not so much.

The U.S. has somewhere in the neighborhood of a 13 trillion dollar economy. Germany has about a 2.5 trillion dollar economy.

(And, for the record, Germany is the "spawn" of Prescott Bush? Ridiculous.)

[1932]

7. Hey, come on, Germany. We did what he had to do to make a few people really rich.

[unkachuck]

8. thank you, Republicans....

"There is also a sense that the nation that is filling much of America's previous geopolitical space is China and that Europe feels tension in its strong alliance with U.S. power in decline and its strategic distance from China clearly ascending."

....nothing succeeds like success....bring it on!

[melody]

10. Last I read polls during the Clinton era, Germany has always hated us

How is this new?

They're just using this as PR for the EU. They're all the same global house of prostitution -- only the
whores change (my apology to whores).

[Eurobabe]

28. That's bullshit. After the war, America was loved

over here. And during the Clinton years, America still commanded a great deal of respect.

It's mainly since der Chimpmeister took the reins and fucked everything up that America's standing abroad has declined.

Do you have link to those polls you speak of?

Here's one for you: What Do Europeans Like and Dislike about the United States? 2004

http://www.harrisinteractive.com/news/allnewsbydate.asp?NewsID=780

[melody]

29. It's not bullshit, it's true

I'll be happy to supply polls in the morning, but it's all written up in a book called
The J Curve. It was written by a very mainstream academic. It doesn't matter which President. The trend is
a bias against Americans, not the government. The same sort of thing crops up in rural areas of the US about France,
though Germany seems to get a pass. There will always be favorite bogeymen in every culture. For some of the
more rural areas of the US, it's France. In the big cities of France and Germany (especially among the left),
it's us. The EU has played this to the hilt, wanting to knock us down and replace us as the world power. One
can only wonder what will happen when that transpires. Don't know if I want to be in Bush's Gitmo or the EU's,
once we've successfully become the all-purpose bogeyman for everything bad in the world.

It's also evident in the fact your press skirts over the proof of two stolen elections. It is soft-pedaled because
the overall trend is against the US, which supports the EU. Meanwhile, people over here are suffering and dying,
as are people in Iraq and Afghanistan and, well, the corporate EU is cleaning up.

[Eurobabe]

32. I'm an American, I just happen to live over

in Germany, so it's not my press. I see and hear what goes on daily.

Yes, the govt. is pissed at some of the policies of the US, some of the people don't like Americans. I am sure there are more than a few Americans that don't like the Germans. I don't like ALL Germans either, some are downright dickheads. But most are nice people.

Who was this mainstream academic, an American? I don't blindly accept what academics say either, I used to work in Academia, what's that phrase? Piled high and deep? Ph.D.?

And quite frankly I don't trust polls, they can be skewed to serve the purposes of almost anyone or anything. You should know that. :eyes:

[Forkboy]

36. The J Curve: A New Way to Understand Why Nations Rise and Fall

The J Curve: A New Way to Understand Why Nations Rise and Fall



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_J_Curve:_A_New_Way_to_Understand_Why_Nations_Rise_and_Fall

edited to add that I don't buy the premise posited by the poster that Germany has always "hated" us.

[melody]

39. Yeah, I do know that lol

However, we're not talking one poll, we're talking multiple ones collected scientifically over many years.

And no, having been in academica, I don't believe 3/4s of what's out there, but this one was persuasive.
Had it been the only thing out there or if the methodology been crappy, I'd have ignored it. And no, the
writer was French.

I don't want to believe people hate us, but this book sufficiently convinced me that is a very accepted
prejudice. Americans have our own.

If it's wrong, it's wrong. I hope so, since the book also predicts the US will be at war with Europe within
50 years.

[Eurobabe]

43. Well, if he was French, then we can totally discount the book

right? :sarcasm:

50 years? I'll be dead by then. Not to worry. :hi:

[melody]

45. I don't discount anything based on someone's ethnicity

And before ten people (not 48percenter) weigh in, yes, French and German are ethnicities. So is
American.

However, cultural traits/trends (as evinced by data) are cultural traits.

Canadians often don't like us much either, but Americans are often fairly ignorant of other cultures, in
general. Cultural traits are cultural traits, as I've said.

As for 50 years, I hate to tell you this, my friend, but if you're under 50, you have a 50% chance (based
on the patterned growth of recent medical advances) of being alive then. :)

[Eurobabe]

49. it was a joke melody, didn't you see my sarcasm dripping?

Jeez louise. :headbang:

[melody]

52. Thought you were being snide, which allowed for a follow-up

Rather than sarcastic.

As you said yourself, whatever.

[Eurobabe]

53. Me snide? Never...

I actually like the Europeans, despite the fact that they may or may not like me.

I love the way of life over here, the clean air, the care for the environment, the lack of emphasis on consumption. More Americans should try it, it would expand their insular worldview.

[Eurobabe]

55. And no the author is NOT French, he is American

you should check your sources. This reduces his credibility in my eyes.

"Ian Bremmer received his PhD in political science from Stanford University in 1994, specializing in nation- and state-building in the former Soviet Union. Bremmer went on to the faculty of the Hoover Institution where, at 25, he became the Institution’s youngest ever National Fellow. He has held research and faculty positions at Columbia University (where he presently teaches), the EastWest Institute, Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, and the World Policy Institute, where he has served as Senior Fellow since 1997."

He is a native of Boston and currently resides in Westport.

[melody]

62. Not of the J Curve I'm discussing

He's Gerard Henri who changed his last name to "Revel" recently, for obvious reasons.
I just looked it up. I know my sources quite well. lol

No reason to get testy about an academic discussion anyway. As I've said to others, if you
don't want to believe what I've said, ignore it. Just put it out of your head.

[Eurobabe]

64. you said further up

"'ll be happy to supply polls in the morning, but it's all written up in a book called The J Curve."

So you say you aren't talking about the J Curve, but yet you are? Which is it?

I think some Americans are just pissed that the EU is kicking their asses. The Germans are right, US is on a long deadly downward spiral, partially of their own doing.

I'm finished. Bye :hi:

[melody]

69. "Americans" aren't pissed at anything and the EU is barely surviving

Americans aren't a conglomerate -- they're 350 million individuals.
Europeans are individuals, also.

Listen, if you need to ignore it and have the last word, by all means do so.
I think it's sad that you hate your own people and that you celebrate the
suffering of the innocent to come. None of this is our own doing -- it's the
doing of 2% of the population, but they'll all move to Dubai while the rest of
us are suffering alone.

And while you're believing the "they brought it on themselves" meme, check this out:
http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_melody_c_070713_the_bush_family_and_.htm

Wouldn't it be nice if we could just stop hating each other and spend ten minutes
trying to understand each other?

I also think it's sad you can't have an analytical discussion about cultural
trends without a childish sign-off like that. lol

[davekriss]

38. I'm not surprised that foreign disappointment with the U.S. ...

...runs through both Democratic and Republican administrations, as -- until the in-your-face excesses of GWB -- our imperialistic foreign policy has been pretty consistent since WWII. Basically the source of all policy, regardless of the party in power, springs from this stark statement:

The US has about 50% of the world’s wealth but only 6.3% of its population. In this situation we cannot fail to be the object of envy and resentment. Our real task in the coming period is to devise a pattern of relationships which will permit us to maintain this position of disparity without positive detriment to our national security. To do so, we will have to dispense with all sentimentality and day-dreaming, and our attention will have to be concentrated everywhere on our immediate national objectives.

We need not deceive ourselves that we can afford the luxury of altruism and world benefaction. We should cease talks about such vague and unreal objectives as human rights and raising of living standards and democratization. The day is not far off when we are going to have to deal in straight power concepts. The less we are then hampered by idealistic slogans, the better.
-- George Kennan, PPS 23, 1948

With Bush, we're clearly slipping. Our ability to "maintain this position of disparity without positive detriment to our national security" has been seriously compromised. With each bomb dropped, or Iraqi disappeared, support for the U.S. agenda erodes not only in the Middle East, but around the world. The people around the world and within the U.S. do not accept aggressive, illegal imperial invasions of other countries, which is precisely what we did when we invaded Iraq.

[melody]

40. Our "imperialism" has been aided and abetted -- by corporate Europe, to their benefit

It also has been the selective course chosen by a handful of rich white men, not all of whom are American.
And it has been, at best, uneven in success -- largely due to a lot more normal, ordinary citizens,
including many Americans.

The "people around the world" are virtually emotionally identical to Americans. They may have
different cultural characteristics, but they are alarmingly uniform.

[davekriss]

63. Yes

We have more in common with eachother -- the "people around the world" -- than we do with the ruling financial oligarchies that, here, put on this "show" democracy to quell unrest.

[Canuckistanian]

11. And the Germans would know a thing or two about fast declines

With people slipping off their pedestals a specialty.

[Jemmons]

12. Just a few observations:

a) This is not really anything new. After Rumsfelt remarks about old Europe it got increasingly clear that the myth of a benign US superpower was just that, a myth.

b) Spain, Britain and Italy all got rid of leaders who were seen to be too supportive of the was in Iraq.

c) My native Denmark still supports a PM who have kept us in Iraq for far too long, but most people here think that while the Iraq war has benefited Denmark, its been an insane mistake in part of the US.

d) The arrogance of the US empire is actually helping the EU to improve its reputation among the europeans, and perhaps even give the germans a bit of respect.

[melody]

13. That's Bush's purpose

He was put in place to destroy the US. He's an enemy inside
our own government. When more of this is known, I will feel sorry for whomever
headed up this attack on us.

The arrogance of the EU will doubtless replace the arrogance of the US.

[Selatius]

16. Likely the EU won't enjoy the status of sole superpower the US did after the Soviet Union

The EU will have to deal with a new superpower in the east: China. The EU is not destined to be lone world superpower even if we assume an EU Constitution is adopted by all member states.

That power in the world must be shared with China. China would have the economic leverage to demand it.

[melody]

17. Too true

Superpowers are always going to act in equally malignant ways.
If only we could somehow rise above our primate encoding. :(

[Eurobabe]

44. I predict China will choke under its shitty imports and deadly food

They'll kill themselves before they become a legitimate super-power.

[DFW]

18. "Germany has always hated us" sorry, that's BS

I have been stationed here for 25 years, am married to a German who always
votes Green or SPD, speak the language fluently, and have friends from all
walks of life here as well as two bi-cultural and bi-lingual daughters. I
think I can write about the subject with as much authority as a Newsweek poll
taken ten years ago.

Germany does not hate us. They like our music, they generally like our people,
if you exclude religious nut-cases and oafish visitors who come here (and to
other countries) and think it's fine to order people around in English and act
like boors and think that's OK because it's their vacation and they paid for it.
The USA is a favorite destination for German tourists, and most Germans who have
been to America have liked it immensely, even if they didn't agree with the way
things are done in all aspects of life.

During the Clinton years, the most I heard about America, apart from comments
during Clinton's impeachment like "are you people crazy? You have the best
president in office in our lifetime, and your legislature wants to get rid
of him?" most of the comments on America I heard were more to the tune of "too
bad for you that he has to leave office--can we have him when he is done there?"
The Germans are perfectly capable of distinguishing between Bush and America as
a whole. To a great extent, they feel that both elections were indeed fraudulently
handed to Bush, and that he is not representative of the country as a whole,
especially today.

If you want to truly get an idea of how a country feels about us, you can read
the polls, but don't trust them as your only source. They may not be telling the
whole story, or even an accurate story. Learn their language, go there, talk to
people. Do THAT and tell me "Germany hates us," and I might sit up and take
notice.

This is DFW reporting to you live from Düsseldorf for DU news!

[Selatius]

19. I remember hearing RFK, Jr. speak about his father and his uncle JFK

He reminisced that while as a kid when JFK went to Germany, he remembered how much the German people adored him. He and America, he said, was loved by millions of Germans. They believed in America. They probably still do. They just don't see America as the force of good around the world like they once did.

[DFW]

22. That's an amazingly accurate assessment. n/t

[Karenina]

68. In this corner, we have a number of DUers

who live in-country and speak the language. In the other corner, we have an expert witness to the "racism" endured by Amis, simply for BEING AMIS! (Someone, THINK OF THE CHILDREN!) a book and a second hand anecdote of a family exploring the surroundings from a far-flung outpost. :woohoo:

[truedelphi]

21. I spent three days in Germany some twenty years ago

And found the similarity between the Germans and
people here amazing.

They are gregarious as we are; friendly; exhibit a sense of the absurd; and I felt at home there.

Although I will admit liking the Netherlands better than any other place in Europe, I felt that the German experience was
a comfortable one. I do admit from time to time wondering what an older person had been up to some forty years five earlier - and I shuddered at one point when some box cars went down the tracks. But the younger people were very progressive in their manners and their attitudes.

[DFW]

25. My wife is German, so I have met many of "that" generation

Her father worked on a farm when he was drafted at age 17 to join Hitler's
Wehrmacht. He lost a leg and all of the rest of his unit froze to death at
Stalingrad in 1942, when he was 18. As the only "country boy" of his unit,
he was used to working in the bitter cold, and survived (just barely). Known
as the happy boy of the family as a kid, he came home rather somber. He
lighted up a little, but still grew dark and started mumbling angrily to
himself whenever a documentary about Hitler or the Nazis came on TV. My wife
never lived though that era, but got the idea pretty clearly, and has always
devoted her life to making sure her country never went down that path again.

As for her dad, he was expremely relieved that all his grandchildren were
girls, so that they would never be forced to wear a soldier's uniform.
After what happened to him, he never wanted to see a uniform, a gun, or hear
another explosion as long as he lived.

I speak Dutch and go over to the Netherlands a lot (just hour from here). It's
OK, but my base of ops is here in Germany, and while they do seem in love with
their burocracy (and hate it at the same time), it is still an OK place to
spend time, and I'm REALLY glad for their health care system. My wife's cancer
treatments would have bankrupted me six years ago if I had had to pay for them
out of pocket. As it is, she didn't even have to pay for her train fare to her
rehab spa after the radiation was done, and she is back with me now, her usual
smiling self.

[Solly Mack]

23. I love Germany - 3rd year here now

You're absolutely correct..a poll tells people nothing about Germany.

[Karenina]

59. Jawohl!!!

:hi:

[melody]

30. My brother-in-law and sister were stationed at Spangdahlem for years

I visited them there. We're all three very quiet, nice people. We're not boorish or
loud or any other American stereotype. They loved the German people as individuals but
the moment they got into any kind of group situation, they immediately found themselves
having to explain every tiny thing about our culture -- not in a friendly way either, but
in a very contentious way. I think it may be a cultural thing. It may be acceptable to
yell at people for their government -- I don't know, but my experience (and theirs) was
that they actively stayed away from any group gatherings because they would be introduced
as "the Yanks" and it went from there. I should point out they were there mainly during
the Nixon years, and it happened in the UK also -- a lot of being yelled at for stuff the
government does, as if we have control over them. As we kept telling them, we're the last
ones they listen to.

It was a cultural trend. Nothing against the German people, but if you asked people in
Alabama about the French, you'd get a similar response. It's a matter of cultural
indoctrination and it happens everywhere.

[Karenina]

58. This anecdote makes your case???

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

[theNotoriousP.I.G.]

48. Couldn't have said it better myself

I too live in Germany. Thank you!

[Eurobabe]

54. Thanks DFW, I've been chewing on this thread overnight...

there are some on here pushing this J curve book, as the one book that "explains it all." I bet this is just another one of those harpy academic tomes. I too invite those who think Germany hates us to live here, get native, and then repeat the line. Is it different than the US. You betcha.

I agree with you on many points. The Germans are just a "cooler" culture, it's more challenging to get to know them, they are quite private and it takes a long time to become part of their inner circle. Once you are in though, you are in for life. That being said though, in social situations they can be quite confrontational. They openly discuss politics - it's not a third rail like religion and politics are in the USA. Germans have an immense curiosity about other cultures, and are the most well-traveled people on the planet.

Sometimes in Munich you encounter someone who just has it out for tourists, it's like any other big city. There's good and bad everywhere.

[jgraz]

20. Hey Germany! If it wasn't for us you'd be speaking GERMAN today!

:patriot:

[Eurobabe]

24. Press 1 to continue in English, press 2 to continue in Spanish n/t

[Forkboy]

37. LOL

Why can I picture the "moran" guy holding a sign saying that. :)

[Eurobabe]

26. It's not only Germany, it's Old Europe as a whole

They're all wondering what the fuck is going on across the pond??!!

I just saw a story in a local newspaper that Americans are bringing up the rear in the likeability category. When Germans were asked which group of people they preferred more: Austrians came in first, Spain next, sadly Americans in dead last with 26% (hmm isn't that dipshit's approval rating?) I used to think that people over here were able to separate Asshat from the people, but now I am not so sure. Once in awhile I sense a strange attitude from someone who figures out that I am an American. I just keep smiling and speaking my German. I'll never stop smiling, you can't take that away from me, that makes me uniquely American. :patriot: But I think they've caught onto the American pattern of wastefulness, the mass consumerism, the head in the sand re: climate, recycling, energy-efficiency, and much more. Not to mention the inability of the two party system to accomplish anything, or hold BushCo accountable for breaches.

Americans don't help things by insisting that everyone speak English wherever they go, and wearing those god awful white sneakers, shorts and T-shirts. I still love what America is fundamentally at her heart, but I wonder if my birth country will ever recover. In the meantime, I try to fit in, it's pretty weird. :(

[melody]

41. Which sadly further proves the point

There is an overall pattern that began many years ago.

[Eurobabe]

46. I don't know what to think, it really wasn't this bad

in the 1990s. It's gotten progressively worse since 2000. I blame alot of that on the Squatter in Chief. The Europeans (people) despise Bush, and they cannot fathom why he was given a second term.

Whatever, I'll just continue to live in my bubble and pretend that they all like me. :hi:

[melody]

47. The Europeans, if we're to generalize, should know we didn't give him a second term

There has been sufficient evidence (in fact, the BBC has done a couple of excellent pieces on vote theft)
of the 2004 election that fair people would understand there's a good chance we were a victim of yet
another coup (as we have many times, in one form or another, over 50 years).

We also despise him -- even more than they do. We've also had to live in very difficult circumstances without
national health care while our brothers abroad have not to the same degree. As I said, we tend to see mitigating
circumstances as we wish to.

Hey, enjoy your bubble ... I like mine, too. lol

[Eurobabe]

50. But you said the European press wasn't reporting things correctly over here?

So you contradict yourself, a bit with this statement. Whatever. :hi:

[melody]

51. It's not contradictory when seen in the intended context n/t

[Karenina]

60. OK, Melody, U-N-C-L-E. EVERYBODY HATES AMURIKKKANS!!!

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[truedelphi]

42. Americans don't help things by --

Nope they don't always help much.

Flashback to the early eighties.

A friends' mom has just returned froman eight week deluxe tour of Europe.

When asked about it, she said it was great, but with a serious and disappointed face added, "If only the Italians didn't speak Italian!"

[michael_1166]

27. A few centuries of humility and minding its own business

would do America very good for a change.

[DFW]

34. Nobody expects a superpower to mind its own business

But a little humility would do us a world of good.
As the word "humility" doesn't seem to be in the
vocabulary of the current administration, no one is
doing us a world of good in this administration.

As for France in Alabama, or perceptions based on ignorance
in general, they are usually best left at home. During the
first months if the Iraq invasion, after France and Germany
told us we were crazy and didn't go along, two websites
sprang up: Francesucks.com and Germanysucks.com

These sites were very professionally managed, so some web-wise
friends of mine here did some forensics to see if they could
trace the origins of those sites. Sure enough, they were U.S.
government Grade A propaganda, worthy of Nixon's Dirty tricks team.

I visited Europe while I was still in college, during Nixon's time,
before being recruited for my current job. It was ALWAYS the case
that if you made an effort to learn even a few words of the local
language and learn a little about the place you were visiting, that
you were appreciated. If you barged into someplace automatically
speaking English, or telling the people how great your country was,
and how inferior their country was, well obviously they think you're
an idiot. That goes for anyone. Germans are known for doing exactly
the same, especially in Eastern and Southern Europe. But it just
makes people think that the ones behaving like that are the bad
apples. It doesn't mean they hate Germans, or Americans, or the French
as a whole.

The funniest Iraq story came after the House of Representatives renamed
"French" fries and "French" toast as "Freedom" fries and "Freedom" toast.
Now, there is nothing in France that even comes close to resembling "French"
toast, so they had no idea what THAT was about. But the shoestring style
fried potatoes are a Belgian specialty, not a French one. As the French
make Belgian jokes like we make Polish jokes, the French had been miffed
at us for decades for calling a Belgian specialty as "French." When they
heard that Americans were finally going to stop this mild insult by ceasing
to call them "French" fries, they were pleased--until they heard that it was
meant as an insult. Then they reverted back to their original theory that
there is no one sane in North America south of the Canadian border.

[Louie the XIV]

57. While there are some serious disagreements on major policy issues

I don't see any hatred from the average German towards the American people, my recent experiences in Germany were quite pleasant actually.

The idea of Germany or the EU surpassing the U.S. as the next great superpower is laughable though. How many years has it taken them to try and write a constitution?
Germany is still dealing with major structural problems in their economy and society stemming from the reunification. Billions of dollars are being spent just to bring the infrastructure in the east on par with the rest of the country, there is also massive unemployment in the east and a rising number of far-right neo-nazi groups that are feeding off the economic despair and xenophobia of the people in those areas.

[Raskolnik]

66. Ah, the Germans...who can stay mad at them?

Everyone makes mistakes, that's why they put erasers on pencils.

[Blue_Tires]

70. ttt

[mmonk]

71. Trading places.