Meet The Press: Graham vs. Webb. The victory goes to............

[hiaasenrocks]

Neither.

Graham's argument was slightly weaker, because he, like every other war supporter, is stuck repeating meaningless talking points such as "Wait for Patreus" or "We have to win." There is no rational argument for waiting. I suspect that Graham holds this position not because he's sincere, but rather because this is the preferred policy of John McCain, whom Lindsey Graham (my Senator, regrettably) follows around like a lost puppy.

Webb's argument is basically hollow talk. If he's serious about giving the troops a break, and if he's serious about being against this war from the start, he needs to give the troops the ultimate break: Bring them home. Webb, like most of our alleged leaders, does not have the guts to put his political career on the line and do the right thing. He and the others are, for some reason, afraid to fight this president.

Minor observation: Graham's emotions took over near the end of the segment and he appeared to be on the verge of a crying fit, much like that of John Boehner we saw several weeks ago on the House floor.

[derby378]

1. Webb has a son in Iraq...

...who has been obliquely threatened by Herr Decider. "That's not what I asked you. I asked you, 'How's your boy?'"

[madokie]

6. Senator Webb walks the walk and talks the talk.

many could learn a lot if only they would allow themselves to listen, sadly some won't

[johncoby2]

2. Thats pretty stupid to say.

"Webb, like most of our alleged leaders, does not have the guts to put his political career on the line and do the right thing. "


What do you think this is? a fuckin game? There is no easy way out of this mess. You cant just "pull out" over night. If we were to leave today, it would take months and months to just get our equipment out of the area or we can leave it there. This isnt fucking yahtzee. Bush and the republican party put us into a horribly complicated situation. There is no easy way out of this.

I'm pretty sick of the simple minded criticism.

[hiaasenrocks]

5. There is a way out, a way to force Bush's hand.

Fund the redeployment. Take the money that is already in the pipeline and fund the difference. Let "The Decider" decide if he wants to use that money to keep troops in the field on a dwindling budget or bring them home.

I'm pretty sick of the simple minded lemming approach that keeps us in this needless war.

[hiaasenrocks]

12. By the way...

would you be so kind as to show me where I said we should or could pull out overnight? Thanks.

[DU9598]

28. Probably this part, combined with your tone

"If he's serious about giving the troops a break, and if he's serious about being against this war from the start, he needs to give the troops the ultimate break: Bring them home. "

-------------

You were criticizing Sen. Webb because he is apparently not moving fast enough for your like and you say that apparently the only option is to "bring them home." The implication is that you want the troops pulled out right now.

[hiaasenrocks]

32. If someone chooses to read it that way...

that's their prerogative. But I said nothing of the sort. The problem is that Webb is doing nothing to end the war, regardless of timelines.

[madokie]

3. theres no hollowness in what Senator Webb proposes

Senator Webb will continue in the tradition of America having some great Senators, not all but some. One day I see him as a viable candidate for the White House who I could and would support
Senator Webb knows of what he speaks, he took the oath and he lives by it. A man of convictions is he.

[hiaasenrocks]

9. I was proud when Webb won.

So far, I have seen nothing from him that matches his campaign rhetoric. The best thing I can say of Webb is that he is not George Allen.

Would you share the information that leads you to believe that Webb "will continue in the tradition of great Senators" and that "a man of conviction is he"? Thanks.

[madokie]

its the same information you already have but refuse to see

methinks. better yet, will you explain to me why you say what you say. what is the pre rhetoric compared to the todays rhetoric. :shrug:

[hiaasenrocks]

23. In other words, nothing. Thanks.

[MannyGoldstein]

4. Sadly, 'We Suck Less' Has Become The Democratic Strategy

If they simply become 'lite' versions of the Republicans, they risk nothing. Vote for the Republicans? Can't - they suck more. Vote for a third party? Remember what happened last time anyone did that...

The sad part is that 'we the people' are buying into this 'strategy' hook, line, and sinker.

So very, very sad.

Edit: That being said, I didn't see Webb's performance, so I really can't comment. But the OP's post regarding half-hearted measures, in general, strikes a chord.

[hiaasenrocks]

7. Exactly.

The die-hard partisans on both sides are part of the problem in this system.

It's admirable to be loyal to an ideology; it's disgraceful to be loyal to one of these money-machine parties.

[Terri S]

8. disagree to a point

Webb's argument is not hollow at all. Perhaps, unlike you, he understands that * will most likely veto any bill to put a timeline to pull-out. His bill would make sure that the troops have down-time equal to their tour time and that reserves could not be called back to Iraq for 3 years. In the absence of total withdrawl, this at least prevents troops from total exhaustion and blatent disregard for their well-being.

Of course total withdrawl is preferable to this, but in light of reality as it stands, it beats the hell out of what is there and what is likely to be available until enough Republicans will override presidential veto.

Graham's argument is no argument at all. Worse yet, he's pulling for war in Iran .. !! His argument was only 'slightly' weaker? jeez.....

[hiaasenrocks]

10. Yes, "slightly weaker" because they are both arguing for

essentially the same thing with regard to Iraq: More war.

[Terri S]

17. man, if that's what you got out of this discussion

you have my condolences.

[hiaasenrocks]

18. How does Webb's position end the war?

Fill us in. Thanks.

[Terri S]

33. read my first response again

and again, if that was all you got out of this discussion, and if you truly think there was only a minor difference in their positions... you have my condolences.

You made a valid point that withdrawl is the only real way to completely protect the troops, but if you are a part of the reality based community, you have to know that this is not going to happen without a majority that can override a presidential veto. To characterize their positions as only slightly different misrepresents the conversation and the HUGE difference between the two.

[hiaasenrocks]

35. The veto issue is irrelevant.

See post #5 for my proposal.

There is no requirement that the Congress pass anything, so if my idea fails, simply do not bring another bill to the floor.

What's your plan?

[Terri S]

43. my plan? lol

Sure... defund the war ... try to pass it. A majority of the country is NOT in favor of defunding the troops. Period. My plan or yours is not the will of the majority of the people .. and screw the people because * isn't listening to us or the Congress anyway. If this ... as you characterize it .. only slightly better argument .. couldn't even get passed, just what makes you think the congress would defund the war?

You are sounding a bit incoherent when you say their positions are about the same merely because neither puts an end to the war now.

[hiaasenrocks]

44. From my perspective and my desire to end the war...

their plans are not that far apart.

As for the charge of incoherence, take a look at your own first paragraph. :shrug:

[Terri S]

45. my bad on the 'incoherent' remark

it was not meant to be disrespectful. I simply am aghast that you could have listened to that discussion, know both of these men and say that their positions are only slightly different.

You are basing that on the one simple criteria of ending the war NOW. The world is not black and white .. you HAVE to understand that. So you tell me .. just why should anyone in Congress support defunding the war when a majority of Americans do not support that? And Please don't tell me it's the right thing to do. That's your observation .. and mine .. but you and I do not make up the total of the US.

And again, saying they are/were only slightly different when it comes to this war is NOT based on the reality of the situation, only a narrow interpretation based on one single criteria that you judge to be the only one.

[hiaasenrocks]

47. I plead guilty to the single criteria charge.

I want the war to end.

I'm still waiting for someone to tell us what Webb is doing to end the war, not just slow it down...

[madokie]

24. one only has to be in the Troops place to understand what Senator Webb proposes

something tells me someone hasn't been there, in the Troops place.

[hiaasenrocks]

48. This faulty logic can get you into some trouble.

You could take that argument to its extreme and make the case that only those who have served in Iraq, during this current conflict, are capable of speaking intelligently on this issue.

I suspect you know that's not the case, nor is your original claim in any way valid.

[dansolo]

49. Some people prefer the status quo if things can't be exactly as they want

Black and white thinking apparently isn't limited to the Bush Administration. I never supported this war, and I would like to see our troops come home. But the simple fact of the matter is that our troops are suffering because they are continually redeployed. Saying that by focusing on giving the troops longer breaks we are supporting having them there is analogous to saying that sex education encourages promiscuity.

[hiaasenrocks]

50. Terrible analogy.

And regardless of your intention, you are enabling the war enthusiasts.

[A wise Man]

11. Webb has a lot of guts to be seated next to Gram

I would have reached over and slap the shit out of him. He keeps interrupting Webb as Webb trys be be respectful.

[hiaasenrocks]

13. Now that I can agree with.

Webb got the better of Graham's emotional rant. "Calm down, Lindsey."

Graham is an embarrassment to my state and to this country.

[Ilsa]

22. I know what that's like. I'm in Texas. It's really awful sometimes

trying to explain that you had nothing to do with te election of that idiot in the WH or Cornyn or KBH.

[madokie]

27. Thats what I say too

slap the water, err piss out of him Senator Webb, you know what you say where as Sen graham knows only talking points and what ever john mccain says or does.

[napi21]

14. Boy, Timmy had an easy day today! HE didn't have to say ANYTHING!

Webb sure landed some good hits on old Lindsey!

[spanone]

15. Webb won. His argument is far from hollow.

[hiaasenrocks]

16. OK

[Horus Krupkey]

19. Under Stenny-Emanuel's thumb

The same reason that IMPEACHMENT is off the table is behind Webb's apparent shortage of intestinal fortitude.

If you want change they well need to be MACACA'ed with Man From Uncle camcorder TRUTH SQUADS!



Once you show their true colors, ( i.e. Edwards Hillary conspiring to erase Kucinich via open mike ) the true grit of their subordinates convictions will emerge,

What's wrong with Huffington is another matter. Why she cant lead the battle cry for the IMPEACHMENT Gonzo, Hr-333 then the shrub is a matter that deserves further consideration.

I want the names of the posters on her elite blog who are encouraging Pelosi's pussyfooting around the INEVITABLE IMPEACHMENT hearings coming down the pike. http://polstream.podbean.com/medias/play/aHR0cDovL21lZGlhMS5wb2RiZWFuLmNvbS9wb2RjYXN0LWJsb2ctYXVkaW8tdmlkZW8tbWVkaWEtZmlsZXMvYmxvZ3MvMTM1ODIvdXBsb2Fkcy9BQVJfN2QtR3JlZW5IdWZmSG91dmFsLU5vSW1wZWFjaG1lbnQtMjAwNy0wNy0xNC0xMWsubXAz/AAR_7d-GreenHuffHouval-NoImpeachment-2007-07-14-11k.">AAR_7d-GreenHuffHouval-NoImpeachment-2007-07-14


Speaking of pikes, Vlad the impaler would make short work of the obstructionists that have put POLITICS above the LIVES of GI's and innocents as well as the NATIONAL SECURITY of the nation that is being put at increasing risk every day the OCCUPATION continues.

http://polstream.podbean.com/medias/play/aHR0cDovL21lZGlhMS5wb2RiZWFuLmNvbS9wb2RjYXN0LWJsb2ctYXVkaW8tdmlkZW8tbWVkaWEtZmlsZXMvYmxvZ3MvMTM1ODIvdXBsb2Fkcy9BQVJfQ0wtRHVyc3RSYW50LTIwMDctMDYtMzAubXAz/AAR_CL-DurstRant-2007-06-30.mp3">AAR_CL-DurstRant-2007-06-30





src:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=1339516&mesg_id=1339628

[BootinUp]

20. Disagree with you

Webb is working very hard to get some controls on use of the military passed in this partisan fucked up country we live in where the executive branch is fucking up the volunteer armed services.

[hiaasenrocks]

26. My interest is in ending this war.

How do Webb's proposals do that?

[madokie]

29. more important, How does YOUR proposals do that

they don't, I know that and you prolly do too.

[hiaasenrocks]

34. See post #5.

[madokie]

37. my question is are you that naive as to believe that, reply #5

I'm not

[hiaasenrocks]

39. Please elaborate (if possible). Thanks. n/t

[BootinUp]

30. He is in agreement with you

but he doesn't have the power to stop it as fast as you demand.

[hiaasenrocks]

36. They don't have the power because they don't

have the courage to end the war. If they were to refuse to allow themselves to be bullied by right-wing talking points (and those of deferential Democrats who are allegedly against the war) they'd have that power.

[BootinUp]

40. I guess you don't get it

There will be no de-funding while the troops are deployed. There is no support for the idea, period.

[hiaasenrocks]

41. Sure, that's the reality.

And I've addressed why that's so.

Is there another explanation?

[leftchick]

46. they are not being honest about 'keeping security troops' in Iraq either

the fact is I have not heard any Democrats except Kucinich and Gravel address the real reason the US is in Iraq. Nor the fact that the so-called "security/training troops" left behind in our bases will be there to protect the reason we went into Iraq. OIL.

[Hubert Flottz]

21. "on the verge of a crying fit"

Why do you think they wear those diapers?

[hiaasenrocks]

25. LOL n/t

[madokie]

31. your argument was/is hollow my friend

[hiaasenrocks]

38. Do you have anything of substance to add?

Your hit-and-run posts, and refusals to answer questions, speak volumes.

[phildo]

42. hiaasenrocks -- you is alright, gatorboy! Dems vs. Reps = America Loses

Real deal is the Dems are not going to do shit?

That is what is really going on here, isn't it?