Democrats Swallowing The Bush Line Hook & Sinker-Next Target: Iran

[kpete]

We’ve said it before and we’ll say it again:
there is madness at work here.

Next Target: Iran; Democratic Senators haven’t Learned a thing
Submitted by davidswanson on Mon, 2007-07-16 13:31. Iran
By Chris Floyd, ATLANTIC FREE PRESS

.................

The bipartisan Senate resolution — the brainchild (or rather the bilechild) of Fightin’ Joe Lieberman — affirmed as official fact all of the specious, unproven, ever-changing allegations of direct Iranian involvement in attacks on the American forces now occupying Iraq. The Senators appear to have relied heavily on the recent New York Times story by Michael Gordon that stovepiped unchallenged Pentagon spin directly onto the paper’s front page. As Firedoglake points out, John McCain cited the heavily criticized story on the Senate floor as he cast his vote.

It goes without saying that all of this is a nightmarish replay of the
run-up to the war of aggression against Iraq: The NYT funneling false
flag stories from Bush insiders. Warmongers citing the NYT stories as
“proof” justifying any and all action to “defend the Homeland.”
Credulous and craven Democratic politicians swallowing the Bush line
hook and sinker.

...........................

This vote is the clearest signal yet that there will be no real
opposition to a Bush Administration attack on Iran. This is yet
another blank check from these slavish, ignorant goons; Bush can cash
it anytime. This is, in fact, the post-surge “Plan B” that’s been
mooted lately in the Beltway. As you recall, there was much throwing
about of brains on the subject of reviving the “Iraq Study Group” plan
when the “surge” (or to call it by its right name, the “punitive
escalation”) inevitably fails. Bush put the kibosh on that this week
(”Him not gonna do nothin’ that Daddy’s friends tell him to do! Him a
big boy, him the decider!”), but that doesn’t mean there isn’t a
fall-back position or rather, a spring-forward position: an attack on
Iran, to rally the nation behind the “war leader” and reshuffle the
deck in Iraq.

Of course, the United States is already at war with Iran. We are
directing covert ops and terrorist attacks inside Iran, with the help
of groups that our own government has declared terrorist renegades. We
are kidnapping Iranian officials in Iraq and holding them hostage. We
have a bristling naval armada on Iran’s doorstep, put there for the
express purpose of threatening Tehran with military action. The U.S.
Congress has overwhelmingly passed measures calling for the overthrow
of the Iranian government. And now the U.S. Senate has unanimously
declared that Iran is waging war on America, and has given official
notice that this will not be tolerated. It is only a very small step
to move from this war in all but name to the full monty of an overt
military assault.

more at:
http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/?q=node/24723

[ChairmanAgnostic]

1. what the HELL is wrong with the Democrats in office?

this is worse than insane.

[kenny blankenship]

9. They like to get themselves into positions where they can either be beaten senseless by Rethugs

or else passively acquiesce to another bout of bombing and invasion. Presenting their vulnerabilities openly to the attacker is sort of a second nature for them.

Instead of the Mommy Party they should be relabeled the Masochist Party. There's one perverse benefit to them in their habitually passive posturing (aside from the obvious one that all Masochists enjoy): when they give way to Rethuglican warmongering it becomes impossible to act on the Democratic Party agenda. There's no money left over for it and the attention of government as well as the people gets directed externally to fears and threats and away from our internal condition and much needed improvements. Since it's impossible to legislate on the Democratic Agenda "durnatymohwar", as they say, the incumbent Democrats can't really be held liable by their party's base for doing such a crappy job of implementing the Democratic Agenda.

In fact, this has been going on for so long now, you'd have to be a bit of an ol' timer, with white hair and a few screws rolling loose, to even remember what the "Democratic Agenda" is--or rather, since they never try to act on it anymore, what it used to be.

[AntiFascist]

26. Excellent argument, and we should argue this to all the Dem leaders...

who are waiving off impeachment:

"When they give way to Republican warmongering it becomes impossible to act on the Democratic Party agenda. There's no money left over for it and the attention of government as well as the people gets directed externally to fears and threats and away from our internal condition and much needed improvements."

[rhiannon55]

11. Here's my tinfoil hat answer to that question

Corporatists run as populists on the Democratic ticket, pretending that they work for us and not for the corporations. Then when they get elected, they join with their Republican compatriots to do the bidding of the corporations.

And the (war) beat goes on....:tinfoilhat:

[conspirator]

12. That's not tinfoil. It's a fact. Left and Right is an illusion. Elite and slaves is the reality n/t

[bananarepublican]

19. Political spectrum extremes should be anarchy and totalitarianism, not left and right! n/t

[nolabels]

85. We are possibly living in a failing state that is exhibiting both simultaneously

With absence of the rule of law in society all (weird) things are possible :shrug:

[John Q. Citizen]

21. Bingo. Most memebrs of congress are pro empire, which is why they are there.

They let a couple of exceptions in once in a while just to maintain the fiction that we are a democratic republic

Ever wonder why the vast majority of Dems don't see anything wrong with the elections system? Well, now you know.

[orleans]

67. that's spooky. n/t

[BeHereNow]

30. Thank you!

It really needs to be said again and again.
BHN

[ronnie624]

72. Bingo.

It's a class war, and right now, we're losing.

[Cha]

53. It sure looks that way..

Gotta keep the war machinery happy.

[ronnie624]

70. No tinfoil is required.

Knowledge of who receives corporate lobbyist money, and a simple examination of voting records reveals all that one needs to know about our 'representatives'.

This is why I pay scant and sneering attention to the arguments of those who defend the DLC filth.

[Phrogman]

86. I wish everybody in America could see as clearly as you Sir.

I've been residing outside the US media umbrella, and the view from the real world is precisely as you stated

It's a shame, there's no "good guys" on our side anymore. They've all been vetted and neutered.

[leftchick]

40. One Acronym

AIPAC! It is the basis for all of the US foreign policy decisions. :(

[Behind the Aegis]

71. BOO!

:eyes:

[Wiley50]

2. Both Factions of the CORPORATE PARTY have Unanimous (97-0) Agreement

That's what's wrong with the Democrats in Washington

Heaven help us all

[rurallib]

5. I am not aware of this resolution, but good to see the Dems

stood up again.
Is this resolution similar to the Iraq resolution? Did even Russ Feingold join in?
Is Iran the payback for not impeaching the SOBs?

[snappyturtle]

25. The vote was 97-0 ! The amendment Lieberman devised starts

off with 20 "findings" of Iranian wrong doing inside Iraq and finishes with ordering a report every 60 days. If you go on afterdowningstreet.org you can read the amendment. I think they're getting their reasons so go to war on the record. scary.

[orleans]

68. link please

(i've been looking on that website and cant find this to save me!)

[snappyturtle]

84. I posted six to seven hours earlier and the page changed....

sorry...this article I was referring to was top and center when I posted. But here's another you may find interesting.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rj-eskow/lieberman-lays-the-ground_b_56093.html

It references the 97-0 vote count and link to a copy of the amendment.

Here it is...
http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/?q=node/24723

[orleans]

97. thank you. n/t

[scarletwoman]

95. Here's a link to the full text of the "findings" & the amendment itself:

http://agonist.org/sean_paul_kelley/20070712/full_text_of_iran_amendment

Note how much hearsay, speculation & unsupported-by-any-evidence-whatsoever allegations make up the "findings".

sw

[ooglymoogly]

87. Connecticut must be sooooo proud of their own little Chucky. ...

who is busy as a bee destroying life on the planet and making it safe for Israel to take over.

[AntiFascist]

27. At least in the Senate...

the Senate is more likely to answer to global corporate and economic issues. Basically their reasoning would be that stealing oil is our only chance to rescue the economy (but would never say so publically). The House, theoretically, is more tied to their constituents and regional concerns (or corporate donors as the case may be).

[me b zola]

74. Do you know if Bernie Sanders voted?

There are 3 missing votes. I'm guessing one is Johnson (still recovering), another is Vitter the shitter, I'm hoping that Bernie is the third.

[scarletwoman]

94. Brownback was the third absent vote, sorry. (nt)

[Hubert Flottz]

3. The Senators must all have dirty diapers.

It's all you can figure.

[Cha]

56. Most of these politicians

are like diapers..they need to be changed often and for the same reason.

[Art_from_Ark]

69. Damn stinking filthy diapers

And now with all the hubbub about the DC Madam, they can't find anyone to change them

[lonestarnot]

4. Only one very small step to begin an inferno journey.

[Richard Steele]

6. Recommended- no comment.

[jojo54]

7. My nightmare is unfolding........... eom.

[chimpymustgo]

8. Wait a minute. Feingold, Kennedy, Clinton, Obama ET AT voted FOR this? WTF!!!

What the H*LL is going on here?

[jojo54]

10. Your guess is as good as anyones.

Sometimes I wonder what's in the sand that they've all got their heads stuck in.

[irislake]

15. Sometimes I wonder

what Americans who trust their Democratic politicians have THEIR heads stuck in! They seem to know how to get round their naive supporters who want them to leave Iraq. Gee my lil ole hands are just so tied! Golly we just cain't impeach!

[MsMagnificent]

77. H. Clinton is a hawk

and a very vocal, if not large, piece of her NY constituency would be upset if she didn't vote this way.

They can't or won't learn from present history --forget about past-- about attacking ME countries. Both wars are going badly, being steered badly, and our politicians want still more.
They're all mad. We're all alone.

We're doomed.

[Benhurst]

13. To hell with any of "our" senators, congressmen and candidates who go along with this.

They learned nothing from Vietnam. They obviously have learned nothing from their stupid and spineless backing of Bush's illegal and immoral invasion and occupation of Iraq.

Enough, already!

[leftofthedial]

14. Poland is attacking the homeland across the border

This aggression will not stand, man!

the "democrats" in Congress (with a few exceptions) are on the other side in our struggle for peace and justice.

[fasttense]

16. And all our ignorant Democratic presidential candidates voted

for declaring that Iran was committing acts of war against the United States: a 97-0 vote to give George W. Bush a clear and unmistakable reason to attacking Iran whenever Dick Cheney tells him to.

"UPDATE: Jonathan Schwarz points out that all of the Senate’s
Democratic candidates for president voted for Lieberman’s Iran War
amendment: Hillary Clinton, Barak Obama, and Joe Biden. Just in case
you were expecting a saner foreign policy after the 2008 election."

This is the emergency situation dick and the bushes needed to declare martial law and kill our Democratic government. The stupid Democrats just handed crazy dick a loaded gun.

[LWolf]

17. You mean "all the ignorant democratic candidates" in the senate.

:shrug:

[Individualist]

42. Not all. Kucinich opposes war with Iran.

[Amonester]

57. Dennis is a Senator? Since when? n/t

[Individualist]

93. You need to work on your reading comprehension

The post I replied to referred to "all democratic presidential candidates". Kucinich IS a democratic presidential candidate.

[madrchsod]

18. here`s what the amendment said

"To require a report on support provided by the Government of Iran for attacks against coalition forces in Iraq."


http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=110&session=1&vote=00242
U.S. Senate: Legislation & Records Home > Votes > Roll Call Vote

read into it what you like.

[wiggs]

22. Uhm, no. That's not what people are upset about. Please read the

amendment at this link

http://iranlegislation.wikispaces.com/space/showimage/DAV07990_xml.pdf

and below is some of the language to watch out for, but also inclusion of hearsay, rumor, speculation about Iranian involvement in Iraq under "Findings".

"It is the sense of congress that the murder of members of the US Armed Forces by a foreign government or its agents is an intolerable and unacceptable act of hostility against the United States by the foreign government in question...and the Government of the Islamic Republic of Iran must take immediate action to end all training, arming, equipping, funding, advising, and all other forms of support that it and its agents are providing, and have provided, to Iraqi militias and insurgents, who are contributing to the destabilization of Iraq and are responsible for the murder of members of the United States Armed Forces."

This is an ultimatum that assumes unproven facts and makes threats. I'm not reading anything into it that's not there.

Now...it may end up that some of the findings are true. I have not knowledge of whether or not it is is isn't true. But I recognize questionable assertions when I see them (cartoons of mobile labs, badly forged letters, etc) and the Findings of the amendment are weak and, as I remember, refuted by many at the time. And the fact that this stuff is taken unchallenged by senators and that inflammatory language is included during a time of heightened tension and given our past unfortunate history with the run-up to Iraq is UNBELIEVABLY SCARY.

[madrchsod]

24. thanks--- did`t see that part

one day they are the next 12 hours it`s not true...seems we are being set up,does`t it

[me b zola]

73. Thanks for posting that...

The language and implications are worse than I thought. :scared:

I don't believe for a minute that this is a brain fart on the part of the Dems. I believe that they know full well how this will be used.

[pokercat999]

78. JUST

switch "Government of the Islamic Republic of Iran" with The "USofA" and you have the truth of the matter. Are the Iranians coming after us or are we going after them? I don't see any Iranian saboteurs in my neighborhood.

[KoKo]

88. and that Iran Govt. can't stop this any more than our Puppet Govt. in Iraq can stop the killing

in Iraq. The language of that Amendment...the Findings are so like the Iraq War Resolution. Bush just can say Iran is in violation of UN and Bombs away and Dems will support him so as not to look weak on terror.

[Kablooie]

20. If this is what it seems to be, I'm voting for Nader in the next election.

[Imagevision]

23. So you say Kusinich is a bad choice eh?...

[BeHereNow]

28. Ron Paul 2006- IRAN; The Next Neocon Target

http://www.house.gov/paul/congrec/congrec2006/cr040506.htm
"Iran: The Next Neocon Target

It’s been three years since the U.S. launched its war against Saddam Hussein and his weapons of mass destruction. Of course now almost everybody knows there were no WMDs, and Saddam Hussein posed no threat to the United States. Though some of our soldiers serving in Iraq still believe they are there because Saddam Hussein was involved in 9/11, even the administration now acknowledges there was no connection. Indeed, no one can be absolutely certain why we invaded Iraq. The current excuse, also given for staying in Iraq, is to make it a democratic state, friendly to the United States. There are now fewer denials that securing oil supplies played a significant role in our decision to go into Iraq and stay there. That certainly would explain why U.S. taxpayers are paying such a price to build and maintain numerous huge, permanent military bases in Iraq. They’re also funding a new billion dollar embassy- the largest in the world.

The significant question we must ask ourselves is: What have we learned from three years in Iraq? With plans now being laid for regime change in Iran, it appears we have learned absolutely nothing. There still are plenty of administration officials who daily paint a rosy picture of the Iraq we have created. But I wonder: If the past three years were nothing more than a bad dream, and our nation suddenly awakened, how many would, for national security reasons, urge the same invasion? Would we instead give a gigantic sigh of relief that it was only a bad dream, that we need not relive the three-year nightmare of death, destruction, chaos and stupendous consumption of tax dollars. Conceivably we would still see oil prices under $30 a barrel, and most importantly, 20,000 severe U.S. causalities would not have occurred. My guess is that 99% of all Americans would be thankful it was only a bad dream, and would never support the invasion knowing what we know today.

Even with the horrible results of the past three years, Congress is abuzz with plans to change the Iranian government. There is little resistance to the rising clamor for “democratizing” Iran, even though their current president, Mahmoud Almadinejad, is an elected leader. Though Iran is hardly a perfect democracy, its system is far superior to most of our Arab allies about which we never complain. Already the coordinating propaganda has galvanized the American people against Iran for the supposed threat it poses to us with weapons of mass destruction that are no more present than those Saddam Hussein was alleged to have had. It’s amazing how soon after being thoroughly discredited over the charges levied against Saddam Hussein the Neo-cons are willing to use the same arguments against Iran. It’s frightening to see how easily Congress, the media, and the people accept many of the same arguments against Iran that were used to justify an invasion of Iraq."

I wish Paul were running as a democrat.

BHN

[Jacobin]

29. Neoconservativism....It's not just for republicans anymore

I will rejoice on the day that neo-cons and their cousins, the Likud Party are reviled as Hitler is today

[Blackbird_Highway]

79. Stop the Politically Correct Crap

Neoconservative is just the politically correct replacement for fascist. Let's just call them what they are, for a change.

[JacquesMolay]

31. Um, are we allowed to type the phrase 'Israel Lobby' in here?

...n/t

[BeHereNow]

33. No, it is the elephant in the living room, not to be noted.

Seriously.
Welcome to DU btw.
Don't worry though, some of us are well aware.
We just know not to mention the unmentionable.

BHN:hi:

[scarletwoman]

32. Hope you don't mind if I plug the thread I did on this very same article on Friday...

only difference is, I linked straight to Chris Floyd's blog where it was originally published.

Here's the thread from Friday: Down in the Flood: The Senate's Blank Check for War on Iran -- Chris Floyd

I'm bringing up the older thread because there were a lot of interesting and incisive comments made there that might interest people for whom this is new news.

There was also a very good thread posted on this topic by Nikki Stone 1: So the Senate unanimously declared that Iran was committing acts of war against the US

And in case it hasn't already been posted here (I confess that I haven't read through all the posts on THIS thread yet), here is a link to the full text of the "findings" attached to the Lieberman amendment: full text

I'm grateful that you are bringing more notice to this travesty, thank you.

sw

edited to add: k & r

[BlooInBloo]

34. DUers are no different on this.

[BeHereNow]

HUH?

PASS OVER SOME OF WHAT YOU'VE BEEN SMOKING!
BHN

[scarletwoman]

38. I'm with you -- huh? (nt)

[BeHereNow]

41. Looks like a case of hit and run...n/t

bhn

[Madspirit]

35. k&r...n/t

[scarletwoman]

36. kicking again -- C'mon folks, lets get this on the front page! (nt)

[bbgrunt]

37. k and r

[Evergreen Emerald]

39. This is scary

What do they have to say for themselves?

[BeHereNow]

43. Oh, lot's of speechifying rhetoric, while they ignore WE, the people, behind closed doors.

As everyone knows, the truth is in what one DOES,
not what one says.
Clearly, the truth has been revealed.
And yes, I'm scared too.
Never has it been more clear that we have no voice
in what these "people" do.
BHN

[scarletwoman]

44. They've already said it -- they've basically ratified every bush lie & the policies that follow from

those lies by their unanimous vote on this amendment. The evidence is in their action -- just as BHN said above.

sw

[mod mom]

45. I'm sick over this, but after seeing how they stood up for their voters in '04-NOT surprised.

[scarletwoman]

46. It's silly of me, of course -- but I would have hoped at least 1 or 2 of them might have resisted.

But that's just delusional thinking, obviously.

One good thing I see out of this -- it's a great cure for any lingering tendencies of thinking that the Democratic party works for us "little people".

sw

[scarletwoman]

47. KIcking again...

[BeHereNow]

48. Right behind you...

:kick: :kick: :kick:
bhn

[scarletwoman]

50. I want this on the front page, dammit! (nt)

[BeHereNow]

51. But, but...what about diaper boy, the flight attendent and all the other distractions

from what MATTERS.

BHN

[scarletwoman]

58. And Global Fucking Warming! Don't forget about Global Fucking Warming!

Because, goodness knows -- once the nukes are launched, we are going to be SOOOOO much better off for having switched out our fucking light bulbs!

And don't forget to donate your organs!

:argh:

sw

[BeHereNow]

61. Sorry, but I am VERY busy with the Catholic church and other pressing matters

I'll get back to you with my thoughts on the planet and global warming after nuclear armegeddon.
Thanks for reminding me about my light bulbs though.
Your sister in snarkiness,
BHN

[ecstatic]

49. Fool me once...shame on er um...

Before their apologies for Iraq are even cool they are all set to do it again. Any senator/rep who allows this will NEVER get my f*cking vote. I don't give a damn if s/he is the nominee. That is a PROMISE!

[Cha]

52. What just happened for the last

4 years since MISSION FUCKING IMPOSSIBLE?

Do the dems wanna ruin another ME country and drag our country further down into the depths of despair? I guess the answer is a BIG RESOUNDING.. "YES!" :wtf:

[BeHereNow]

55. No see, they are staging an "ALL-NIGHT FILIBUSTER" out of the other sides of their mouths.

Don't worry, listen to what they SAY, not what they DO.
Now, shouldn't you be watching American Idol or shopping?
:sarcasm:
BHN

[Amonester]

59. Yep. And 97 to NOTHING is the score.

Nuclear Football is their league.

Diapers? Who in their right minds would even care?

Wake up call: Rove's not dead.

We The People are. (Soon).

[BeHereNow]

63. Astounding, isn't it?

And then they announce an all night filibuster on Iraq.
Am I the ONLY one who sees the insanity of this situation?

BHN

[KoKo]

92. It does seem insane...along with everything else going on in DC these days..

:-(

[EFerrari]

54. Still kicking

[Phredicles]

60. Why is it that every big issue winds up with "Democrats Swallowing"?

Pretty sick of it, whatever it is.

[BeHereNow]

62. Because we're FUCKED?

Sort of looks that way, eh?

Don't worry though, the all night filibuster will
make everything better...um yeah.
That's right.

In the meantime,
http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,128420,00.html

"Officials said Speaker Nancy Pelosi and other members of the
leadership had decided to strip from a major military spending
bill a requirement for Bush to gain approval from Congress before moving against Iran."

That's right- stripped

....a requirement for Bush to gain approval from Congress before moving against Iran.
....a requirement for Bush to gain approval from Congress before moving against Iran.
....a requirement for Bush to gain approval from Congress before moving against Iran.
....a requirement for Bush to gain approval from Congress before moving against Iran.

But HEY, the all night filibuster will fix it!
Yup, have some more kool aid everybody!
There's plenty for BOTH sides of the aisle!

BHN

[Amonester]

65. How about calling them up on their BS blank check to the PNACers?

Concerned DUers: Jam their switchboards?

1.Last. Call. (?)

(Before Darth Cheneyouself starts shooting the world in the face.)

[BeHereNow]

66. Can't hurt, but so far, it hasn't helped either-

Sorry, I don't mean to sound like a defeatist-
but rather, as a realist I must say, I can't help but notice
we are just passengers on the train to hell
no matter who's driving.

BHN

[orleans]

64. here is an article about this re dick durbin's take

Senator Dick Durbin Doesn't Want the U.S. Involved In Iran, As Well


Iran's harsh rhetoric on its nuclear future has some wondering if it's time to consider committing U.S. troops there as well as in Iraq and Afghanistan. But Senator Dick Durbin is not among them.

Durbin says the Bush administration has mishandled the Iraqi conflict from the beginning, and says that the continuing U.S. presence is creating new problems.

"Some people have a voracious appetite to keep our military in the field invading countries. I'm not one of them," Durbin said. "That is the last thing that we want to do.

Durbin said he believes the U.S. first should exhaust all non-military means of keeping the Iranian government from acquiring nuclear weapons and of blocking its assistance to radical Islamist groups.

"This idea that we'll just mount up and ride to the battle (doesn't work)," Durbin said. "I think we've learned a bitter lesson in Iraq. It is a much more complicated undertaking than some people make it."

Instead of charging ahead, Durbin said he believes the U.S. government must take a step back to assess what is most prudent.

He said the Iraqi invasion has gone "terribly bad."

"We've lost over 3,300 American soldiers, spent over $500 billion, have many injured soldiers coming home and many still in the field," he said. "This war is far from over. That was an invasion that was supposed to be quick."

http://www.wbbm780.com/pages/423524.php?contentType=4&contentId=471735

[JDPriestly]

75. We cannot go into Iran while getting out of Iraq.

The two wars will spill into each other. This is a stupid idea.

[Knightly_Knews]

76. Who said we were getting out of Iraq?

You don't build an embassy, larger than the Vatican, in a war torn country for nothing. We are not leaving Iraq, Iraq is our newest airbase in the Middle East. Just a prelude to the big picture.. World War 3.. Buckle up kids, it's gonna be a rough ride!

[JDPriestly]

90. Precisely my point.

Bush's plan (which is silently supported by many Democrats in Congress including, I suspect, Hillary) is to have a permanent strike force in the Middle East. I suspect the idea is to establish the American presence in a permanent way so that we are a given in the life of the Middle East the way we are in Europe where we have what have become permanent military outposts in Germany and membership.

Our presence in Western Europe is not perceived by the people who live there as being hostile at this point. We went into Europe as allies of European countries and with many, many friends in countries in which the then governments (during WWII) were puppets of the NAZIs. We shared a common cultural history with Europe. In contrast, we went into Iraq as invaders and we do not share a common cultural heritage. There is no evidence that the populations of the countries neighboring Iraq view us as friends. They don't really want us there at all.

Bush is just sending our soldiers in to act as targets. That is the reality of his "fight them over there so they won't come here" argument.


Bush's plan is for perpetual war. He is not building a bridge to peace. He is not creating relationships of mutual trust with the people in the Middle East. He is not leading the way toward cultural and religious tolerance. This perpetual war will fail as has every other Bush plan or effort.

We have to leave Iraq and draw all out troops out. If we can't keep our embassy safe, we will just have to conduct diplomatic relations with future Iraqi governments from Jordan or Kuwait or some other country in the region. We have inflicted terrible suffering on the Iraqi people. We have a moral obligation to get out and let some other institution like the United Nations Peacekeepers or an alliance of neighboring countries move in and establish the peace. We do not have the resources to fight in Iran, Iraq and who knows what country next.

Do you realize what would happen to oil supplies (and prices) if we invade Iran? Our economy would collapse. People in urban areas could starve. It is unthinkable. We cannot risk war with Iran. They tried to cross the border into Iraq way back in the '80s when they fought with Hussein. If the Iranians now tried to go in waves into Iraq to fight our meager forces in Iraq, their armies would be welcomed by the Iraqi Shiites, and I fear what the result would be for our armies. Iran is a very large country with a large population.

[BronxBoy]

80. And not a peep about the Saudis......

:shrug:

[jonnyra]

81. Hey c'mon give the dems a break

After all they ARE having an all night bitch fest...that'll show 'em! Keepin 'em up all night is pretty damn harsh dont ya think? So what if they march in lockstep to war with Iran...they are filibustn' them on a toothless Iraq bill that Bush would just ignore anyway but hey...they are showing the nation they can hang tough and debate till their eyes are droopy!

This whole thing has just gotten to be absurd. America is lost. The republican party has destroyed America.

[Blackbird_Highway]

82. Brilliant Strategy!

This is yet another brilliant strategy by the Repubs. Between now and the election, attack Iran. Howls of protest from the left. The leading Repub candidates then say, "Oh, but Clinton and Obabma both voted for it". Demo candidates lose a big portion of their support. Repubs win in Nov. '08. The Iran attack will most likely wait until it is too late for Gore to enter the race.

Even if we don't attack Iran, this knocks Clinton and Obama out of contention for my vote. Remaining potential candidates in the Senate: Brownback, Johnson, and Vitter, the three who didn't vote. All of them are easily knocked out for other reasons. Assuming that Kucinich doesn't win the nomination, and Gore doesn't enter the race, then I'll be voting Green this time around.

[annabanana]

83. He said the "Surge" was his response to calls for a "change". .

It looks like Iran IS "Plan B" alright.

[Voltaire99]

89. Yes, Dems will roll over just as with Iraq.

Empire is the governing condition. Bear in mind that fact and it will lessen the pain of watching Hillary, Obama and other Dems line up for the next imperial project, though it may not (and should not) lessen your disgust.

In Washington, it doesn't matter whether you're a Dem or Republican: there's only one war party.

[Elidor]

91. Maybe this is what it will take to get people to WAKE THE FUCK UP

The frontrunners for the democratic nomination are just more of the same. Less mendacious than Bush, to be sure. More concerned with public opinion - to a point. But just as uninterested in peace and truly progressive policies. The gaping corporate maw demands more bodies.

[scarletwoman]

96. Spot-fucking-ON!

There is only ONE party: the WAR PARTY, the CORPORATIST PARTY.

There is NO "party of the People". There is NO "party of Peace".

WAKE THE FUCK UP!!!!

sw

[BeHereNow]

98. No, tell us...

How do you REALLY feel?
LOL..
Right there with ya sistah SW.
BHN:hug: :loveya: :pals: :yourock:

[scarletwoman]

105. Heh. If only I weren't so shy and demure, I might really cut loose...

:evilgrin:

:loveya:
sw

[BeHereNow]

106. Yes, shy and demure, I can relate...NOT!

I hate to imagine the numbers of _______ the two
of us have shrunk over our years on DU...
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

:hug:
BHN

[scarletwoman]

107. On a serious note -- I hope you'll read Warrren Pease's excellent post #99 below, it's awesome!

And I must shamelessly admit that I'm hoping my reply to WP (post #101) gets some attention as well...

sw

[BeHereNow]

110. Indeedy- I did read WP's smoking post...I figured your reply said it all though.

I agree, I wish there was a way to recommend individual replies
in a thread. WP's post deserves its own thread, IMHO.
BHN

[warren pease]

99. Unfortunately, waking the fuck up requires...

Useful information and the capacity to evaluate it in context. First, we have no useful information available from any "trusted" sources; even the NYT has apparently decided its future lies in backing fascism and contributing to the screech of the right wing noise machine.

Radio isn't even pretending, as the NYT still does, that impartiality exists in its spectrum of programming. Wingnut radio has been the driving force behind the devolution of America into Dumbfuckistan and blasting the big lie 24/7 such that, to more suggestible citizens, resistance is futile and all hail the fascist boot -- as long as it's identified with the GOP and guarantees to stamp out libruls and their godless, anti-family values.

Anyone with access to the internet and the desire to seek out information from non-US sources already knows that TV news is worse than useless -- its overt mission is delivering brain-destroying content and serving up the resulting mental mush-balls to the advertisers in a state of drooling compliance.

And in its more important though unofficial role as ministry of disinformation, it's charged with continuous pompom waving for corporate orthodoxy and maintenance of the oligarchical status quo.

All of which guarantees that never is heard a discouraging word about domestic fascism and murderous overseas resource grabs, all tarted up by TEEVEE with patriotic idiocy and justified with the usual appeals to religiosity, love of country (which actually means "love of the current administration"), and good old American xenophobia and racism.

So US-based mass media, particularly TV news (which is where about 92 percent of the US public says it gets most or all its information) is dangerous to everyone it comes into contact with. It's a classic air-borne virus that attacks higher-level brain functions and can only be cured by a decade's exposure to the reality of fascism American-style, after which even the most slavish BushBots finally get the fucking point.

But it's too late by then, the republic's ruined every way you can imagine, it's a third-world country ruled by corporate predators, overflowing with former members of the now-defunct middle class who never saw it coming.

Sick thing is, democrats could have stopped the whole process in its tracks. They were elected specifically to do exactly that. And they thumbed their noses at their "base" and, within hours of the 2006 elections, were declaring that impeachment was off the table, that they wanted to work in a bipartisan manner with their colleagues in the GOP, that they were eager to meet with The Commander Guy to see how they could avoid partisan bickering, and blah, blah, blah...

Then, as if that wasn't bad enough, they tossed up a horde of presidential candidates who, with a couple of notable exceptions, might as well have been moderate republicans -- if such existed anymore. Militarists, corporatists, globalization supporters, free traders all, willing enablers of the status quo. Certainly less fascistic, but not necessarily less imperialist, than the average republican.

We've all been told that Kucinich is "unelectable." The fact that this is the opinion of those same rotten apologist bastards who pollute mass media, posing as insiders when they're just the usual liars from the Happy Face Department at the AEI or the Heritage Foundation... that fact is conveniently forgotten in the frenzy to handicap the horses. Issues? We don't got to deal with no stinking issues...

Ahhh... The only thing left, at least legally and within the constraints of an increasingly repressive system, is work like hell for any real progressive challenging any democratic incumbent who didn't co-sign Kucinich's bill to impeach Cheney, who didn't throw a monkey wrench into the BushCo machine, who didn't stand up for the Constitution, and who folded every single time it mattered -- which, with this administration, has been just about daily.

And if the progressive can't overcome the money and power of incumbency? Well, voting republican is just insane, and voting Green produces almost the same outcome. How does anybody who can't afford to buy a senator or congressperson compete with those who can?

Campaign finance reform; public financing of campaigns? Off the table. And you can see their point; why vote to cut off the world's greatest supply of "the mother's milk of politics?"

So, I have to conclude that we're utterly fucked and probably beyond the point at which we can depend on any outside help -- unless the EU gets pissed enough to oppose the US militarily, in which case I'll be at the front of the line to greet our liberators. Might even get a decent health care system out of the deal.


wp

[scarletwoman]

101. Wow, WP, what an excellent righteous post! Wish I could vote for it - it deserves to be seen by ALL!

Everything you say about our news media is exactly on point. And then there's most heartbreaking thing of all -- our elected Dems "who folded every single time it mattered".

We ARE well and truly "utterly fucked"; I don't see any salvation on the horizon at all. As a baby boomer (born 1949) and old hippie, I once held the optimistic view that U.S. society was generally on an upward trajectory of manifesting a progressively more enlightened consciousness into the future.

Never did I suspect that a gang of revolutionary radical fascists would seize control and set about dismantling all past progress in such short order -- with the vast bulk of our citizenry too ignorant/distracted/shallow to even notice their enslavement. And special mention must go to the toxic elements of the populace who rejoice in brutality and authoritarianism for whom the current trajectory toward fascism is a welcome permission to indulge their darkest impulses.

How did "peace" become a concept considered worthy of only derision? How did "rule of Law" become soooo 20th century? How did ethics and respect for the common good come to be considered nothing but a sucker's game? How is it that those who would stand for human rights, human dignity and uncompromising equality and justice have become such a insignificant minority -- their voices drowned out in the overwhelming din of "might makes right"?

How did our societal devolution take hold so quickly and so thoroughly?

My old-fashioned liberal parents (both in their 80s) openly grieve over the death of the America that they thought they lived through the Depression and WWII (my dad's a veteran) to hand down to their children, and their childrens' children. It's all gone. It has mutated into something diseased and hideous.

I'm not naive. I've been quite cynical since the JFK assassination (I was 14) and have ever since understood that our government lies to us. But I really once thought that the majority of the American people themselves were -- for the most part -- honest, ethical and grounded in an unshakeable faith in fair play and concern for the common good.

But our country has gone through the looking glass -- we are apparently nothing but barbarians at heart; happy with our ignorance as long as we can watch American Idol, drive our SUVs, and eat at McDonalds.

sw

[Faux pas]

100. We're going to hell in the handcart supplied by our own party.

Stick a fork in us (US), we're done.

[mmonk]

102. If that happens

I'll be in Canada trying to figure something out for my family.

[BeHereNow]

104. Not if they freeze your assets.

Unless of course, you have been stashing some cash and other
forms of assets.
They plan on keeping us here.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1369934

BHN

[mmonk]

109. We'll see if the courts will allow it because I'd file suit

no matter the language of his directive.

[Imagevision]

103. If that's the case? Bush should just wait until election time and bombs away time I mean

why not attempt to fuck-up the election outcome since everyone is backing the whacko in the WH. Will CNN broadcast the fireworks??

[scarletwoman]

108. kick... (nt)

[BeHereNow]

111. Once again, right behind ya sistah SW

:kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick:

Think this thread doesn't matter DU?
THINK AGAIN.

BHN