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Pamela Troy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-30-07 10:51 AM
Original message
Why We Should Care About Conservapedia
Edited on Mon Jul-30-07 11:24 AM by Pamela Troy
Speaking generally, I observe that while liberals delight in deceit, conservatives outgrew that amusement at age 6 and we've moved on to more productive activities.—(Andrew Schlafly, on Conservapedia’s main page discussion page.)


Back in 1996, Robert Boston’s book on Pat Robertson described the then recent upheavals at Pat Robertson’s Regent University surrounding the dismissal of its Law School Dean, Christian Reconstructionist Herbert W. Titus, and Regent Law School’s struggle for accreditation:

“Regent, then CBN University, was initially denied accreditation in 1987. The ABA cited several areas of concern, including fears that the school’s requirement that all faculty members sign a statement of faith may jeopardize academic freedom. The state of Virginia later agreed to allow law school graduates to take the bar exam in that state while the question of the institution’s accreditation status played out. Now, with provisional accreditation, Regent grads may take the bar." (Robert Boston, The Most Dangerous Man in America?: Pat Robertson and the Rise of the Christian Coalition 1996, Prometheus Press, Page 233)

Today, as an observes, an overhaul of Regent’s curriculum and admissions standards has improved the bar passage rate of Regent alumni from 60% to 67% (It ranked, according to Boston’s Book, dead last in passage of the Virginia Bar in 1996). Former Attorney General John Ashcroft is now co-teaching one of its courses. And the recent publicity resulting from the district attorney firing scandal is likely to serve less as a deterrent than an advertisement to parents and students who embrace Pat Robertson’s vision of Christian “regents” reshaping American: “One day, if we read the Bible correctly, we will rule and reign along with our sovereign, Jesus Christ,” Robertson had said, while describing Regent’s mission.

That goal for Regent Law School is closer than it was eleven years ago. In spite of being a Tier 4 law school – the lowest ranking possible – Regent can boast of alumni like 1999 graduate Monica Goodling. In spite of her lack of experience and credentials, Goodling was put in the position of assessing the performance of experienced and seasoned district attorneys where, as Jonathan Turley commented she acted as, “a political Kommissar within the administration.”

Goodling was only one of some 150 Regent graduates who were hired to work for the Federal Government. The quotes the Regent law newsletter’s description of how a 2004 graduate’s interview went at the Justice Department’s Civil Rights Division in 2003:

Asked to name the Supreme Court decision from the past 20 years with which he most disagreed, he cited Lawrence v. Texas, the ruling striking down a law against sodomy because it violated gay people's civil rights.

"When one of the interviewers agreed and said that decision in Lawrence was 'maddening,' I knew I correctly answered the question," wrote the Regent graduate . The administration hired him for the Civil Rights Division's housing section -- the only employment offer he received after graduation, he said.


There is no way of predicting whether or not Conservapedia, at the moment the butt of glib and dismissive jokes, will follow the pattern of Regent University and become a hatchery for political commissars within a future conservative administration. It may, as Regent did, go through a few upheavals in which its central message is not so much changed as repackaged enough to provide its own future Justice Department hires. It may, on the other hand, be just another one of those Internet nine-day wonders, surfacing briefly and then vanishing.

What is certain is what Conservapedia reveals about a significant right-wing educational movement and the attitudes it attempts to instill in its students. What Andrew Schlafly and others like him are striving for is a generation of young people trained to regard Americans who disagree with them – liberals –as untrustworthy by definition. They are teaching students, not to objectively listen to and assess arguments, but to reflexively attack. Whether or not Conservapedia survives and succeeds, this attempt to stamp out the American concept of the “loyal opposition” will continue. A liberal American is not, the far right is telling its children, a fellow American who disagrees. A liberal American is a liar, an enemy to be ignored, insulted, and ultimately driven from public service.

It may seem far-fetched that this kind of simple-minded prejudice could become powerful enough in our diverse, open, and media saturated society to affect policy. The recent scandal surrounding the ideologically driven firing of eight district attorneys and the role Goodling played in it indicates that to some extent, it already has. A big part of schooling students in this bigotry involves carefully insulating them, educating them at home rather than allowing any “contaminating” contact with students or teachers who might be liberals, sending them to evangelical colleges, pointing them to online “educational” resources like Conservapedia where they will not be exposed to information that challenges Religious Right doctrine. The result can very well be a young adult who, after being starved for years of any information or experience outside the far right’s carefully controlled environment, truly believes that liberals as a group not only lie, but “delight in deceit.”

What kind of policies would someone who embraces such an attitude towards liberals promote? The efforts by not just Conservapedia, but other right-wingers, to rehabilitate the legacies of Joseph McCarthy and Augusto Pinochet provide some indication. Embrace McCarthy as a hero and McCarthyism as a valid tactic, and you embrace the blacklisting of Americans for their political beliefs, the politically motivated purging of teachers from public schools, the removal of “subversive books” from libraries.

Excuse the murders and tortures committed by the Pinochet regime on the grounds that a broadly defined “Marxism” equates to a plot to murder and torture, and you come dangerously close to criminalizing leftist or even liberal political beliefs. Many of the people who died during and after Pinochet’s coup were “guilty” of nothing more than acting on rights that liberal and leftist Americans take for granted. They were voicing support for a leftist politician, passing out leaflets, criticizing their government. Playing down their torture and murder as if such repression were a minor issue is –or should be – absolutely antithetical to anyone who embraces the ideals embodied in our Bill of Rights.

Liberals and moderates who attempt to laugh all of this off as beneath their notice, do so at their own peril. Current attempts to rehabilitate the likes of McCarthy and Pinochet are not taking place in a vacuum. We are hearing at the same time a steadily rising drumbeat from the right, in which liberalism is equated with communism, dissent is equated with disloyalty. The conflation of dissent with treason is no longer merely the province of the powerless fringes of the American right. It was not an anonymous blogger who sent a recent letter to Senator Hillary Clinton accusing her of “reinforc(ing) enemy propaganda” merely by asking questions about America’s withdrawal from Iraq. It was Pentagon official Eric S. Edelman.

So what is the proper response? The answer is not to engage in our own version of McCarthyism, to censor Conservapedia and silence its editors. It also doesn’t help much to vandalize the site with insults and obscenities. Nor is it sufficient to merely laugh at Conservapedia. The expression “silence is complicity” can be applied not just to silence in the fact of outrageous acts, but to silence in the face of outrageous lies.

We need to break that silence, show we care enough about truth to defend it. Consevapedia hides information, obfuscates, and misleads its students because it knows that, given the unvarnished facts, those students may not draw the conclusions the far right desires. The young victims of Conservapedia’s deceptive agenda need to read something from the other side beyond mockery and insults. They need to be simply and politely told the truth, with cites, notes, and references backing that truth up. Nobody can force people who think Conservapedia is a valid source of information to read the facts. But we abrogate our responsibility if we don’t insist on setting the facts straight when we encounter attempts to pervert them.

If Conservapedia itself were to disappear today, the lies it is nurturing, lies that predate its founding, would continue to be spread on the Internet, repeated on right wing websites as unassailable fact, and ultimately bleeding into mainstream political discussion offline. Liberals, moderates, and conservatives who care about reality must become both aggressive enough and well-informed enough to challenge these assertions wherever they appear. No matter how insignificant, how amusing fibs like “Hitler was a leftist” or “Lenin coined the term ‘concentration camp’” may seem, they will become dangerous if they are accepted as fact by enough people.

The truth about history, about science, about the very definition of “truth” always matters. It’s as simple and as important as that.

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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-30-07 10:55 AM
Response to Original message
1. Is there a connection between Regent University and Regnery Press?
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Pamela Troy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-30-07 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #1
13. That's a good question.
I don't know.
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YOY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-30-07 10:56 AM
Response to Original message
2. Free speech is a real bitch
Sorry, if they want to use false information to lie to people (children included) there is nothing we can do about it other than point it out for the BS it is.


Sadly those who use it have created their own defense against any criticism we may have to the point where there is nothing we can do to stop its relevance despite your post claiming otherwise.
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Pamela Troy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-30-07 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. That's my point.
Our only option is to point out the truth when we hear it abused. It's an important option.

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YOY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-30-07 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. I just feel that those who would use this have insulated themselves to anything we could point out
The only hope is that they dig themselves completely into the rabbit hole of illogic/idiocy and such a happenstance will provoke a mass exodus from their bs.

Home schooled fundies are the only ones who would use this and they have their own "academic" institutions, job market, etc... so it won't have a huge affect. They're completely insulated.
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Pamela Troy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-30-07 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. The very fact that these people seek to "protect" their students
from the truth indicates that the truth still has potency.

I repeat --silence is complicity not only in the face of outrageous acts, but in the face of outrageous lies.

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YOY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-30-07 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. I agree, but careful there with the word "truth" and the word "fact"
Truth is a philosophical term. Fact is a scientific term.

There can be opposing versions of the 'truth' just like Kurisawa's Rashomon. There cannot be opposing "facts". The outrageous lies they spit at conservapedia are opposing facts. I well agree about the silence and that silence would only encourage them to continue, but IMHO vocalizing would have minimum effectiveness (in the short run at least.)

I like you. You're a thinker. Welcome to DU from an occasional thinker.
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Pamela Troy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-30-07 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. It's not the "short run"
we should be primarily concerned about.

I've heard this argument before. Back in the '70s, I remember people in the sciences snickering at the anti-evolution movement and urging us all to ignore them, that arguing didn't do any good, that it was just a waste of breath to debate them...

These same people were the ones wringing their hands some years later about the outrageous amount of ground the anti-evolutionist movement had gained. The sad fact is, they could have stopped the religious right. They considered it beneath their dignity to bother, and the result was the RR accrued an unacceptable level of influence in our educational system.

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YOY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-30-07 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. They (fundementalists) created their own academic institutions/media outlets/political agendas
I don't consider it a waste of time at all to debate them or to oppose them. You misunderstand me there. I just question the thought that opposing them will cause some immediate improvement/enlightenment. Stemming their growth as a movement is one thing. Actually being able ot refute/convince them is another altogether.
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Pamela Troy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-30-07 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. Where did I say anything
about "immediate" improvement?

I'm glad to hear you don't consider debating them a waste of time. I wish I were strong enough in the sciences to do so in that field, but now that they've branched into undermining subjects like history, I am making a point of refuting their lies every time I encounter them. If you have a good background in science, I hope you do the same.

What we're facing here are not merely misguided people who are unaware of the truth. Follow the edits in Conservapedia and you will see that these are deliberate lies, efforts by individuals to cover up facts that undermine their arguments. As I've said elsewhere, it's one thing for someone to walk past facts because they are unaware of them. When someone carefully detours around a fact, or leaps over it, or pauses long enough to move the fact out of sight before going on their way, you're in the realm of deceit.


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YOY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-30-07 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #12
27. Not trying to argue. I quite agree actually, but you seemed to imply it.
n/t
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liberaldemocrat7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-01-07 05:28 AM
Response to Reply #8
32. If you had to justify cheating workers, poor, middle class, disabled, unemployed people ...
Edited on Wed Aug-01-07 05:37 AM by liberaldemocrat7
You would have to construct a Mein Kampf of the Encyclopedia world too.

These conservatives have created a Mein Kampf of the Encyclopedia world, and they will blame every worker, every unemployed, disabled, poor, middle class person for their woes.

They will create these constructs that wrongly set conservatives up as the master race and everyone else as not contributing to society.

You could call these people who read that trash, conservapedophiles.

Those people who create constructs that do not correspond to facts will eventually warp their nervous systems and slowly kill themselves. Look at what happened to Lee Atwater. He created these false to facts constructs of others for political campaigns. Eventually he developed brain cancer and died.

These conservapedophiles will slowly kill themselves too.



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Chulanowa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-30-07 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #2
20. Oh, I'm certain libel could apply somewhere.
If there's one thing a conservative group is bound to be guilty of, it's public defamation of character.
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JohnnyRingo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-30-07 11:09 AM
Response to Original message
4. "According to available research"
That misleading quote from a new Celebrex ad is another good reason to take Conservapedia seriously.

The "available research", probably done by Celebrex themselves, supposedly exonerates them from wrongdoing in deaths related to their product.

Soon we will hear quotes from unamed sources attempting to whitewash the Buxh administration beginning with: "According to available data, Buxh was right all along on the economy, the war, and terror"

Conservapedia is not for entertainment purposes only, it's a move to rewrite history.
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NewJeffCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-30-07 11:13 AM
Response to Original message
6. Good post - welcome to DU
I agree - we need to point out the BS where we see it.

A lot of us don't see it, but the movement to put Reagan on Mt Rushmore or on the dime were pretty big - as is renaming so many things around the country after him. It's gone on "under the radar" however.

The same thing with attempt to rehab McCarthy, or call Hitler a leftist (after all, they'll point out, Nazis were National "Socialists")

Do a google search on "Hitler Leftist" and you'll get more than 1 million hits. That's not a small total.


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Kingshakabobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-30-07 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #6
10. Have you read the OP's journal?
The reason I point it out is because you said welcome to DU. She's been here a year.

She only has 67 post but those are some of the most potent 67 posts on DU. I highly recommend her journal!

......just thought I would point that out....:)
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NewJeffCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-30-07 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. No, I have not read it
Thanks for pointing it out to me, though.

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Kingshakabobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-30-07 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Check out "Conservapedia and the Third Reich: Truth as Vandalism"
I work with a freeper who I have "mostly" friendly email debates with. We, jokingly, call each other "fascist" and "comrade" etc. Lately, he's been tossing around this meme that Hitler was a socialist. At first, it shocked me so much I thought he was joking.........Nope........they are up to it again.

Mind you, this is the same freeper who sent me a link to a website detailing how the Clinton administration was more corrupt than Nixon's. To balance the numbers, they used "friends of the Clinton campaign" and, I shit you not, PARKING TICKETS and MOVING VIOLATIONS.



:eyes:
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Jim Lane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-30-07 12:26 PM
Response to Original message
15. Answering Conservapedia lies on DU is preaching to the choir
None of the people being misled by Conservapedia will make their way here.

The best alternative, of course, would be to make corrections directly at the source. I haven't tried editing Conservapedia myself, but my understanding is that Schlafly and his minions keep a very tight rein on the site. Nominally, it's a wiki and is openly edited. In practice, however, I suspect that one could change only minor points. If someone misspelled McCarthy as "MacCarthy", you could fix that. You couldn't insert any reference to the criticism of his methods, though.

And, while I'm in a pessimistic mood: Bushco didn't even need Conservapedia to get millions of people believing in the spurious Saddam-9/11 connection.

So, while I agree with you that right-wing disinformation (of which Conservapedia is a part) is a problem, solving it isn't so easy. Many DUers are tireless LTTE writers. Others work to present information through the public schools. For my part, I try to curb the right-wing spin on Wikipedia. Sometimes, though, it seems that we're all plowing the ocean.
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Pamela Troy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-30-07 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. That's why I spent a few months
as an editor on Conservapedia -- until I finally got blocked permanently.

Where do I say it's going to be easy?
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Posteritatis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-30-07 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. Do they still threaten to prosecute ideologically-incorrect editors? (nt)
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Pamela Troy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-30-07 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. They seem to have dropped that tack.
In fact, they erase the messages and block anyone who asks them about their earlier claims of sending names to the FBI.

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Posteritatis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-30-07 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. Haha, awesome. (nt)
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Kingshakabobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-30-07 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. Check out the OP's journal......and this entry:

"Conservapedia and the War Against Truth"
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Pamela%20Troy/23

snip:
"In the interest of full disclosure, I should say here that I signed on as an editor at Conservapedia under a pseudonym, and what follows here and in subsequent sections will describe in part my own role in trying to get some modicum of accuracy into Conservapedia entries."

Good stuff!
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-01-07 03:38 AM
Response to Reply #15
31. sometimes the choir needs to study the text as well
I have seen many liberals who cannot defend their positions nor refute the lies of their opponents. I must admit that I have not been very diligent on Wiki, but when I checked weeks later most of my edits had stayed.
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DutchLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-30-07 12:46 PM
Response to Original message
19. Recommended! In my country, a version of the Regent Law School would never have taken of
Even the most obsessed right-wing Christian fundamentalists (yes, we have them too, of course) are taught basic scientific facts, even when they are educated at a Christian primary school. And they don't have any political power. Even the Christian parties who are in government right now are all moderates and nothing like Pat Robertson.

I used to laugh at crazy fundies too, but like you, I'm starting to get concerned as well.
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kineneb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-30-07 01:30 PM
Response to Original message
23. "reality" vs. "propaganda"
The reactionaries wish to live in their own bubble, surrounded by their own delusional propaganda. That is fine as long as it is just them. The problem is...they want the rest of us to be forced into their Delusional Bubble, and we don't want to go.

Time to push back, friends. Speak truth to power.
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NewJeffCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-30-07 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. it's more about them expanding their bubble, so to speak
it's not so much that they want to live in their own world and force everybody into it - they want to create doubt about what is now universally accepted, similar to how the OP said that 30 years ago, nobody could have imagined "creationism" being taught in our schools alongside evolution. Yet, now real science - evolution - has to fight to even be taught at all in the schools only 30 years later.

And, them reinventing Hitler as a leftist. If we don't put the kibosh on it now, it is something that will starting leaking into high school and college history books over the next 10-20 years. Maybe not pronouncing him as a leftist, but bringing up that there is a debate about whether the Nazis were extreme right or extreme left.

And, it's about the near deification of Ronald Reagan since he left office... or that anti-war activists lost Vietnam because they prevented "us" from leveling the whole country.
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Blue_Tires Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-30-07 01:39 PM
Response to Original message
26. ttt
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Norrin Radd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-31-07 03:38 AM
Response to Original message
28. It's wear it's deceit on it's sleeve.
The name of the site proclaims it's bias.
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Norrin Radd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-01-07 01:45 AM
Response to Reply #28
30. Oops! I meant to write "IT wears it's deceit on it's sleeve." n/t
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Quantess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-31-07 03:45 AM
Response to Original message
29. zzzzzzzzzzzzz
zzzzzz huh Conservapedia? zzzzzz
:boring:
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