Do you suspect the thugs responsible for this attack ...

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

...had Russian government (local, regional, or federal level) encouragement/support, as opposed to having operated of their own volition?

And secondly, do you believe demonstrators/protesters in the U.S. who try to stage prolonged multi-day demonstrations, as Cindy Sheehan did near Bush's Crawford ranch, will begin facing similar kinds of attacks?

In the early morning of 21st July, neo-nazi skinheads launched a vicious and unprovoked attack on an anti-nuclear protest camp in Angarsk, Siberia, Russia (see map). The nazis violently attacked activists in their sleeping bags and tents with iron rods, knives and air pressure guns. 21 year old Ilya Borodaenko from Nachodka suffered a head-fracture during the attack and later died in hospital from his injuries. At least nine others have been reported to be seriously injured, one of which has had both their legs broken. Tents were set on fire and several belongings were stolen...

source: http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2007/07/376699.html

[lvx35]

1. We need to get a language that can deal with this kind of thing, first and foremost.

Did Putin know? My strong guess is NO. Did right wing factions inside the Russian government hear of it and decide to ignore it? My guess is YES. And do things work the same way inside our government? My guess is YES.

The thing is that conspiracies happen without the guys on top necessarily knowing about it. What we need to do here in the US, as well as in Russia, is to create a culture of accountability where the assholes who turn the other way have to answer for it. That's the only way to avoid this kind of thing from happening.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

2. True. How high up it would have gone is hard to say...

...maybe just the local police siccing a known violent gang of Skinheads on them. That's why I put in parens "local, regional, or federal level."

I thought about just asking "Do you believe these thugs were acting of their own volition?" which might have been more clear and easier to answer.

[lvx35]

3. Yeah, I appreciate your distinctions, and I voted 'yes and yes'.

But the question about the thugs acting on their own volition is direly important at this point in history. Did the Nazi thugs do so? To some extent, yes. Yet they were part of a culture, part of a climate which permitted these things. And the same is true of these thugs, no doubt. I assume the actual answer is somewhere between "mind control" and "choosing it entirely on their own". I just wish we had a more powerful language for discussing these things, and authoritarian actions on the whole. The phenomenon remains dangerously mysterious to us at this point in history, having observed it in action for more than 80 years.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

4. They certainly have violent tendencies on their own...

...my guess would be some authority figure got the message to them that if they chose to attack these people late some night, the police would not be there to intervene. This kind of message can be conveyed with a wink and a nod -- pretty hard to prove. But the absence of some kind of armed protection, given that an attack was apparently expected, speaks for itself.

[lvx35]

5. That wouldn't surprise me one bit.

Given similar warnings, allegedly passed to Saddam Hussein, before the first gulf war. "Go ahead and invade Kuwait, we won't intervene".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Kuwait#Iraqi-American_relations
My own horrid view into power as it works tells me that governments value their "terrorist" organizations, as they are one of the most potent tools of affecting the popular mind.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

6. How true. There's got to be a boogeyman or the show can't go on. nt.

[tom_paine]

7. Osama Bin Goldstein, for example

1984 is NOT an instruction manual!

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

8. Kick for larger sample. nt.

[yardwork]

9. Yes and yes.

The attacks are already happening.

[yardwork]

10. Google "Greensboro North Carolina 1979"

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

11. Here's Wiki's treatment of it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greensboro_massacre

I'm not proud to admit I had all but forgotten this incident. Thanks for the reminder -- it's one we should never permit ourselves to forget.

All criminal proceedings connected with it resulted in acquittals -- no justice.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

12. Kick for larger sample. nt.

[porphyrian]

13. I have no fucking idea, but it's funny how many people are sure the Russian government...

...was involved in this, but still have a hard time believing our government could LIHOP or MIHOP 9/11.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

14. The poll only asks do they "suspect"...

...not do they feel sure.

[porphyrian]

15. Yeah, I read that too. Thanks for repeating it unnecessarily. - n/t

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

16. You may have read it...

...didn't sound like you comprehended it.

And how could you possibly glean anything about a respondent's MIHOP LIHOP views by how they vote in this poll?

[porphyrian]

17. Oh, you want to argue?

Tell you what, hold your breath until I get back to you, and maybe I'll care what you think.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

18. You seem to be having a bad day, porphyrian...

... Something bothering you? Anything you'd like to get off your chest? Things OK at home? How 'bout at work?

Maybe I and other DUers can help. But you gotta be honest about what's eating you, and I don't think it has anything to do with my poll.

[porphyrian]

19. Aside from you right now, nothing's bothering me.

Keep holding your breath.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

20. Alrighty then, just remember, I'm here to help if you change your mind. nt.