Reporter: Michael Vick would have been "better off raping a woman"

[RamboLiberal]

A newspaper reporter who said Atlanta Falcons quarterback Michael Vick would have been "better off raping a woman" than being charged with dogfighting has apologized and will no longer appear on the local sports panel TV show where he made the remark.

Pittsburgh Post-Gazette reporter Paul Zeise made the comments Sunday night on the Sports Showdown show on KDKA-TV, a CBS affiliate. He was disagreeing with another panelist who said NFL commissioner Roger Goodell should suspend Vick for the rest of the season because he was indicted on federal dogfighting charges July 17.

"It's really a sad day in this country when somehow ... Michael Vick would have been better off raping a woman if you look at the outcry of what happened," Zeise said. "Had he done that, he probably would have been suspended for four games and he'd be back on the field. But because this has become a political issue, all of a sudden the commissioner has lost his stomach for it."

Zeise apologized Monday.

"I regret the poor choice of analogies I used to characterize a professional athlete's legal situation," Zeise said.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/football/nfl/08/01/bc.fbn.vick.reporterapo.ap/index.html?cnn=yes

Really big stink in Pittsburgh over this idiot sports reporters gaffe! What is amazing is this program is taped in advance. The station had the chance to bleep him, but instead put up a disclaimer at the beginning of the program that the panelists views did not represent the station or the newspaper - they knew this remark was inflammatory! The next day both the station and the paper were groveling in their apologies. I was offended that Zeise was arguing that Vick shouldn't have been suspended.

[Bluebear]

1. And if she is being raped she may as well enjoy it.

I forget which piece of shit said that, but maybe men in public life should take a clue and not compare ANYTHING to rape.

[CatWoman]

3. maybe he needed to rape her with a dog

:shrug:

[texastoast]

8. That would be Clayton Williams

when he ran against Ann Richards for governor. Lost the election for him. He's a good old West Texas oil and gas man. Typical of the industry (after all, HOW do we get the oil?).

[Madspirit]

13. AND

...and he refused to shake her hand. Ann Richards would not have won if not for all the cross-over Republican women who voted for her. She said that herself. I guess Republican women don't like to be raped either. I love...LOVE Ann. I miss her so. We've lost a lot of very cool Texas women in the last few years.
Lee

[Bluebear]

19. Ann and Molly, two of my favoright women, both taken so close to each other.

I hung on their every word, those two :(

[Madspirit]

24. ...and it wasn't THAT long ago we also lost Barbara Jordan...

God I loved her too. : <
Lee

[Bluebear]

20. Thank you, how could I forget! nt

[KansDem]

25. Equated rape to "bad weather"

Williams spent freely from his personal fortune, running a "Good Old Boy" campaign <2> initially appealing to conservatives. Prior to a series of legendary gaffes, he was leading Richards by as much as 20 points in the polls, and was in striking distance of becoming only the second Republican governor of Texas since Reconstruction.

Earlier, Williams made an infamous joke to reporters, likening bad weather to rape, quipping, "as long as it's inevitable, you might as well lie back and enjoy it."

Wikipedia

A real "charmer"...:sarcasm:

[LanternWaste]

45. He was the reason I became a Democrat!

He was the reason I became a Democrat!

I remember sitting in the Union Center next to the politically active girl I had major affectations for the day after Williams had said that. She was... displeased with him to say the least. So I became a Democrat.

Caveat: I've grown a bit since then-- that progressive women are the most attractive is NOT the only reason I'm a Democrat.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

26. But he wasn't! His critics appear to have totally misunderstood what he said!

As far as I can tell, a lot of people seem to be thinking he meant "Dog fighting is worse than rape", which is a complete misreading - his point is "the response to dog fighting is disproportionately large; larger than the response to rape, even though that's a worse crime".

That strikes me as an entirely uncontroversial (although possibly exaggerated) claim.

The only people it's arguably offensive too are critics of dog-fighing, not rape victims.

[Madspirit]

27. NO...it's offensive because it's presumptuous and idiotic

I find both horrible.
Lee

[musiclawyer]

43. I agree

The reporter chose his words inartfully. But the sentiment is true. If Vick was indicted for rape, he gets eh Kobe Bryant treatment: lots of derision, but a presumption of innocence by the league, and a clear expectation that his lawyers will be beat back the charges and that Vick will play again. The dog fighting charges are very different. They unleash a fury by a large constituency (organized and unorganized) that would not exist if it was one female's word against Vick. Sorry, it's the truth. Both actions are reprehensible. No one is disputing that.

[Toasterlad]

51. You're Absolutely Right.

Although if he were a brighter man he would never had said something that would provoke such a strong knee-jerk reaction.

The truly sad part is, the clown is 100% right. MANY football players have been accused of rape over the years, and I can't honestly remember a stronger public outcry than the Vick story is generating right now. However, you could arguably say that none of those players accused of rape had the fame and high-profile Vick does, either. You could also argue that the Kobe Bryant rape accusation got more coverage than Vick, but I think we have to see how long the Vick drama plays out to accurately judge.

But as far as rape and pro atheletes go, remember: just because you don't hear about it, doesn't mean it doesn't happen. These are rich and powerful men with richer and more powerful friends.

[flvegan]

2. And there's the difference between callous and total fucking senseless moron

[DemGa]

4. Sports writers... a lot of depth and insight there

:sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm:

[Forkboy]

7. Exactly...not the sharpest tacks in the box to start with.

[Oeditpus Rex]

50. This former sportswriter

reminds you of something Oliver Wendell Holmes once said:

"No generalization is worth a damn — including this one."

[Forkboy]

54. lol...touche.

My apologies for the overly broad generalization.

[redwitch]

57. Keith Olberman thanks you.

:-)

[AndreaCG]

62. Um, like Keith Olbermann?

[Berry Cool]

69. Keith Olbermann was a sportswriter.

And still is, sometimes.

Just saying.

[Forkboy]

73. For every Keith there's a dozen hacks.

:shrug:

[Katherine Brengle]

5. And there you have it - that's why we fucking hate patriarchy.

And everything that makes it tick.

[texastoast]

79. And we are sliding back down

that slippery slope, mostly thanks to shit-for-brains in the WH. I never thought I would live to see it again.

[Liberal_in_LA]

6. He probably meant that the public would be more accepting of accused rape (Kobe) than dog fighting

[LibDemAlways]

18. I think that's what he was getting at, too, and

I think there's some truth to it. If you want to get people stirred up, mention animal abuse. An athlete's alleged rape is not met with the same kind of outrage.

[Liberal_in_LA]

30. Yes. With rape some public will assume woman is lying. Dogs are considered innocent victims.

[Nevernose]

74. Intersting statistics:

Dogs can't lie. Ever. They're DOGS.

See "sentience" if that's an unclear distinction.

Women can, and, on occasion, do. There are myriad reasons for incidents of false report of rape. I don't understand it, and think it's am offense to the majority of women who WERE raped and tried to do the right thing, but sometimes women lie. Google the studies if you don't believe it.

Another interesting factoid (not a statistic, since no one I know of has actually done a study on it), but the DAs I know PREFER male jurors to female ones in sexual assault cases. According to them, at least, men are more likely to "defend the woman" than are women, who are allegedly more likely to label the woman a "slut."

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

9. I think he's got a point.

I think he's saying people are more upset when animals get hurt then when people get hurt.

Lots of people said the same thing here the other week.

[BlooInBloo]

11. Yup. A black woman tho. Even DUers know there's nothing worse than a black man....

... raping a white woman - even the most die hard PETA people know *that*.

[mzteris]

14. no - just when WOMEN get hurt.

'cause you know - she probably wanted it anyway.






















and just in case you couldn't hear it:

:sarcasm: (which emoticon really isn't quite strong enough for the emotion I'm feeling!)

[JVS]

10. "And Mr. Zeise is just telling it like it is" /Howard Cosell

I don't see his comment as an endorsement of rape, but rather as a commentary on the level of outrage that the dogfighting scandal has created.

[mzteris]

16. rather a commentary on the LACK of outrage that RAPE

engenders in this country.

[JVS]

17. That too.

[rudeboy666]

12. Nevertheless

His comments do hint at a serious issue: the sports world (in general) ambiguous attitude towards violence (especially against women) and the public's reaction thereof.

Sadly, it does seem that a rape accusation would elicit less severe reaction from both the sports world and the public at large.

Oh yeah, that guy is a scumbag.

[MidwestTransplant]

15. Don't flame me but to the extent he means it would have been less of a story

and provoked less outrage from the public, I think this guy is unfortunately right.

[Johonny]

21. I hurts yet

he's might be right. I don't remember the out cry for suspending Kobe Bryant while his rape case was going on. On the other hand those poor Duke kids had it about as bad as Vick. Had he said Vick would have been better off beating his wife then he would have been completely correct. Heck one only has to look at the out cry of Atlanta Braves skipper Bobby Cox and his wife beating... oh wait there isn't any. I think his point is pretty alarming to some of us. Recent sports star crimes that injured or could potentially have injured humans got (get) far less negative public reaction than Vicks actions in Dog fighting. It's even more odd when you consider the general publics apathy towards the millions of animals killed in shelters every year due to lazy and careless pet ownership. In a society where that happens year in and year out why is it SO SHOCKING people abuse animals the way Vick is suppose to have?

[Madspirit]

22. Simple-brained moronic idiots

I hate Vick for his cruelty and his sadism toward those animals. If he raped a woman, I would hate him for that. I hate Tyson too. I hate OJ too. I hate violence, sadism and cruelty. It's really quite simple and this moron is making an assumption. I guess he forgot the outrage at OJ and Tyson.
People are simple-minded doofs.
Lee

[Cha]

23. What did he say?...That people care

more about their dogs than their women?

Way to start another storm.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

28. Why is everyone so outraged at Mr Zeise? What he says seems, at worst, exaggerated.

Even a cursory reading, which it appears many people haven't bothered with, makes it clear that his comparison is not

"dog fighting is worse than rape"

but

"response to dog fighting is more than response to rape"

which, given that he's pointing this out as an absurdity, carries an implicit

"rape is much worse than dog fighting".


The only people who might have any cause to be offended are those who've been vocally criticising Vick for dog-fighing; not those arguing against the trivialisation of rape - Mr Zeise is *supporting* the latter group.

[Bluebear]

29. As I mentioned above, any male is better off not comparing ANYTHING to rape

no matter what his intent.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

33. Firstly, I strongly disagree with that; secondly, Mr Zeise wasn't doing so in any case.

Saying "you shouldn't say X if you're male" strikes me as a deeply misguided and sexist position; "any male is better off not comparing ANYTHING to rape" is, I think, an unjustifiable assertion. For one thing, "X is not as bad as rape" (which Mr Zeise said" is a form of comparison.

It's worth noting that some 10% of reported rape victims are male (although that doesn't, of course, say very much about the fraction of actual rape victims that are, given how few rapes are ever reported and that it's far from clear that men and women would report being raped with equal probability).



And Mr Zeise *wasn't* comparing dog fighting to rape; he was comparing the responses to the two (with an implication that they're not themselves comparable).

[Bluebear]

34. Well call me misguided and sexist then. I fail to see why any crime v crime comparo needs to be made

this is worse than that, that is worse than this, it's just distasteful.

[Madspirit]

41. just fyi

Those 10% of male rape victims, just btw, are mostly also raped by men.
Lee

[NashVegas]

61. We Discussed This Very Thing On DU

it upset some people, but I didn't lose my posting credentials.

[nini]

31. sadly he is right when it comes to some people

Some folks get more wound up about animal abuse than they do women abuse/rape.

I see his point though it may have been poorly said.

[Madspirit]

32. You're making that up

That is the problem with myopia. It causes people to make things up. I am extremely upset at Vick. I am extremely upset with rape. I can handle being extremely upset at both. I know NO ONE here who was just upset about Vick but who yawns at rape. Do you?

Lee

[nini]

36. Making what up? Did I say EVERYONE?

You act like I directed this at you personally.

[Madspirit]

39. I apologize

I've just seen a lot of this "and/or" thinking around here and everywhere else. I do not know one person who is upset about Vick who wouldn't also be upset if he raped someone. I do not know ONE. Do you?
Lee

[nini]

42. No, I don't. know anyone who wouldn't be upset about a rape

but then I tend to avoid assholes ;-)

BUT I do know people who would go off more about an abused animal than a rape - which is what I'm saying.

Some seem to scream louder about the animal than the woman who is raped - that doesn't mean they think the rape is ok though. I'm not going to try to get in their heads to figure out what it is that makes them go crazier over the animal abuse than women abuse - it would make me crazy trying to figure that one out.

[Madspirit]

52. It could be

It could be because animals have no voice and no recourse. ...and the level of ongoing brutality in the Vick crime. If we heard of a woman who was chained up, raped repeatedly, sent into a ring to fight until dead or the winner or electrocuted if she didn't win and this went on for years and years....
Lee

[NashVegas]

63. Had Vick Been Accused of Rape ....

We would by now have known the name of the accuser and how many men she'd slept with in the past month. We'd have known if she wears briefs or thongs, or goes commando.

etc., etc.

[Maru Kitteh]

77. EXACTLY. We would have also known what 'motivatons' she had or what she wore

that got herself raped in the first place.

You know the bitch was only looking for money or child support anyway.

[marions ghost]

35. yeah

I get the point too. He should have bit his tongue (& never used a rape analogy), but he does have a point.

Here's a true analogous story:

One time I hit a fairly large dog in the road. I never saw him, it was dusk and he just ran under the car. My car went straight off the road into a ditch--I missed a large post which would have come into my face if I hadn't had 12 inches to swerve. I was dazed but OK.

The dog was badly injured but continued into the opposite lane, where another car jammed on the brakes and was hit from behind by yet another car. The driver hit from behind was rushed to the hospital.

OK so then, the owner of the car comes out of his house, sees all this mayhem obviously caused by his animal, and goes directly to his dog in anguish, picks him up and rushes him off to the vet. Never ONCE did he inquire about the three drivers. Just picked up his dog and left the scene.

A bad, bad choice of analogy...but there is truth in it.

[Madspirit]

40. Huh?!

The dog could have died any moment. Ambulances come for people. Most cities do not have animal ambulances. Was he a doctor? Could he have done something for the people? He was responding to the hurt member of his OWN family. That proves what?
Lee

[marions ghost]

49. I hope you're joking...

Maybe I wasn't clear enough. This dude had no concern that his dog (which was roaming around illegally) had caused three drivers to wreck. He never even asked how any of the people were or cared if they were alive or dead. After he ran off to the vet he wasn't heard from again. His neighbors saw it all and said, typical, he's a jerk.

I mean I love my dog very much, but wouldn't have done that. I'd have gotten some help from a neighbor and tried to help everyone at the scene including the dog--& would have tried to make amends to all 3 drivers later. It wasn't that this guy was momentarily confused. He just had no empathy whatsoever and was completely wrapped in himself and his dog. I pity someone like that. A sad character. But maybe this type is around more than I want to think....

[Madspirit]

56. I didn't get his total lack of concern

I thought he was just panicking about his dog. I see now...and his neighbors comments are important in judging his typical behavior.

Lee

[marions ghost]

67. right, glad the explanation filled out the picture

ordinarily I would cut somebody some slack too- when an accident happens--maybe they were too upset to think straight. But in this case, this guy was clearly a supreme asshole.

-----------general comments:
There is some truth to the statement that people react less to the rape of a woman than they do to
animal abuse. The numbers are shocking re. female victims of violence. One of my students was raped and murdered. It's a lot more common than dogfighting. But where is the outrage?

What was wrong about this guy saying it --was that his casual attitude only adds to the problem, even though it's technically correct. It reinforces it. It was the wrong context.

[brentspeak]

37. I agree

That's what I think this sportswriter was trying to say (though he didn't do a good job of it). If Vick was accused of rape, I don't think we would see the angry mobs in front of the court house like we are right now. Maybe a few demonstrators, but not the angry crowds.

[Exiled in America]

38. He was totally right, even if his comments were ill-advised.

Vick would experience less public outrage, media attention, and long term consequences if he had been accused of raping a woman.

We get more riled up about dogs than about women in this country.

Headline: woman raped today = yawn
Headline: man caught making dogs fight each other = OMGWTFTHISISHUGH!!!!!!1!!11!1!1111ONE!!!!111

[BlooInBloo]

44. And people have been trying to criticize the fever-pitch level of outrage (or "outrage")....

... They all without exception are shouted down by the righteous as animal-cruelty-enablers. Just because they aren't feverish in their condemnation.

[Blue_Tires]

46. i agree fully

we used to have an internal joke back when i was a reporter covering environmental beats, that the one surefire way to get the public to care about a pollutant or some other crisis was to show how badly 1. children, and 2. cuddly animals would be victimized

[LisaL]

55. I wouldn't describe pit bulls as cuddly.

[piesRsquare]

59. I used to think and feel the same way about pit bulls...

...but strange as it may sound, what with all the negative media attention, pit bulls are the most human-oriented dogs out there. I remember reading that a long time ago and thinking, "Spare me, apologists", but then I got a lot of experience with pit bulls and discovered for myself that it's true.

"Normal" pit bulls (meaning those not trained to fight, and those that are properly cared for and exercised) are absolute darlings. And totally needy of human touch. They are cuddly indeed--and absolutely love to be touched by people!

[Madspirit]

68. My neighbor

My neigbor has a little pit bull girl dog, Xena and that dog is one of the sweetest most affectionate dogs I've ever met. She was raised that way.
Lee

[LisaL]

71. My neighbors also had a pit bull. I don't think they actually

were supposed to have that dog in an apartment. Before I could turn them in for breaking rules and regulations they moved out.

[texastoast]

78. I believe it is training

and genetics. Dog breeders have ruined a large part of the breed, breeding back in fighting and aggressive characteristics, much the same way as German Shepherd breeders have ruined those dogs' hips so that they "show well." Idiots.

I took in an American pit stray that was a wonderful, loving dog.

[piesRsquare]

58. LOL!

"OMGWTFTHISISHUGH!!!!!!1!!11!1!1111ONE!!!!111" --can I quote you on that? :rofl:

[alphafemale]

47. But, if he'd have said "He'd of been better off if he was charged with raping a black stripper."

He'd of been sadly accurate wouldn't he?

Well...especially if Vick were a Lacrosse player.

[LisaL]

65. I have absolutely no idea what you are trying to imply there.

First of all, there was a high level of outrage against the players after they were accused. And second of all they were innocent. Certainly if Vick was falsely accused of rape he would have been better off, but I don't think this is what you are trying to say.

[alphafemale]

76. The smearing against that woman started immediately.

Beginning with things along the lines of "She's a stripper? How could she possibly be raped?"

It turned out the woman did, indeed, have some serious "issues."

Rape is despicable. Animal torture is despicable.

But famous men accused of raping women have had more defenders than this guy.

Key-riced. I think OJ has more defenders than this guy.

[LisaL]

48. Open mouth. Insert foot.

[Madspirit]

53. BOTH upset me

However, there MAY be more outcry about this because animals have no voice and no recourse. ...and the level of ongoing brutality in the Vick crime. If we heard of a woman who was chained up, raped repeatedly, sent into a ring to fight until dead or the winner or electrocuted if she didn't win and this went on for years and years....

I see no reason to compare brutalities. Some of us do love animals as much as we love people. Get over it. YOU, (that is a general "you"), cannot control who people love.

As I said, I would be equally upset with both crimes but it is true, animals have NO voice of their own and NO recourse.

This is stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid and divisive and did I say...stupid?

Lee

[salin]

60. to me, it says the reporter thinks there is little outcry or backlash at rape.

While he may be trying to make an argument about 'over reaction' per the dog fighting (and cruelty, mutilation, murder, etc.) - he is also making a strong social commentary about how much less concern he thinks there would be about a rape accusation. That is a very sad social commentary.

[NashVegas]

64. He Said It, But Because of the Apology,

I don't think he is all that appalled by the notion; I think he thought he was being "witty."

He was disagreeing with another panelist who said NFL commissioner Roger Goodell should suspend Vick for the rest of the season because he was indicted on federal dogfighting charges July 17.

"It's really a sad day in this country when somehow ... Michael Vick would have been better off raping a woman if you look at the outcry of what happened," Zeise said. "Had he done that, he probably would have been suspended for four games and he'd be back on the field. But because this has become a political issue, all of a sudden the commissioner has lost his stomach for it."

[salin]

66. I think the social commentary was unintentional - but that is the point,

imo, a lot of folks think that way... rape accusation - not a real big deal. Hence could be thoughtlessly used as a witticism.

[Berry Cool]

70. I chimed in late regarding Keith, but I could see him saying the same thing

in that he would point out that many an athlete has been accused of rape and come away from it with more supporters than Vick, more willing to believe "his word against hers" or "innocent until proven guilty" or so on.

He would not be attempting to compare rape and dogfighting for badness, but rather to compare the levels of public outcry. He would be saying "Both are horrible. Why are so many people so much more quick to give an athlete accused of one the benefit of the doubt? Or even forgive or forget it if it turns out to be true? Versus the other?"

Not that there haven't been some dumb defenses of Vick, too. There have been.

[LisaL]

72. If that commentator had said Vick would have been better off

if he was accused of rape, then the commentator might have gotten away with it. After all a suspect is innocent until proven guilty, and someone who is accused is not necessarily guilty and might actually be innocent. But saying Vick would have been better off raping a woman-well...

[TankLV]

75. Brother - sad, so sad...

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

80. Interesting

I can't specifically recall, but haven't there been at least one or two posts in the volumes about Vick outraged that people are more concerned about dogs than they are women, African-Americans, Iraqis, etc.

They guy didn't say it properly, but his fundamental point speaks to the outrage of a lot of feminists lately here at DU.