We need an economic disaster.

[Warren Stupidity]

I think it is that simple. It is the only thing that is going to get people up off their overstuffed couches, away from their widescreen tvs, and out on the streets. We need a prolonged system-wide catastrophe that destroys the legitimacy of the ruling class and the established order.

We've tried working within the system and it isn't working. I will continue to work for the election of and vote for candidates of the Democratic Party, but I have no illusions: the party leadership is part of the problem. We are living in a Kleptocracy, the peril Eisenhower warned us of on his way out the door is now an entrenched ruling class firmly in control of the media, of both political parties, of the military, of every branch of government and all mechanisms of control both political and economic.

We have just witnessed the full manifestation of the November Snookering. Some of us here warned us about what was in store for us, others have valiently tried to defend and explain, but that is over now. The cards are face up on the table. The truth is obvious to see.

Only a collapse of the hideous system they have constructed will destroy their hold on power. I wish this were not so, I wish there were some other way, but I do not see what that other way is.

[JAYJDF]

1. I hate it, but I agree. That's why the stock market is being propped up.

But the powers can not stop the housing crash which will have a ripple affect.

Us Americans are too comfortable. That is why it will take something serious to wake the majority.
And what better place than being hit in the pocket book.

[libertypirate]

21. Exactly Inflation is being used to maintain the value of the minority class

The richest people in America are our smallest minority...

[acmavm]

2. We need the draft,

[Captain Angry]

3. Do you think the average person will rise up?

A financial catastrophe will not affect the wealthy like it would affect the rest of us.

The wealthy can leave the country, fly away from trouble, make money elsewhere.

If jobs dried up, gas doubled (again), average people would do whatever they were told to be able to feed themselves and their family.

That collapse would only solidify the control. You can't protest if you can't travel, can't eat, etc.

[Warren Stupidity]

8. Yes actually I do.

Of course the wealthy will not be more than annoyed. But a collapse would cause a serious political problem. The last time the resolution of that problem was FDR and the New Deal. Of course there is no guarantee that the resolution won't be simply more overt fascism, yes there certainly is risk. However, barring catastrophe nothing much is going to change. That is all I am saying.

[Deja Q]

11. A collapse would ultimately be global.

It will not happen.

Anytime soon.

Because the rich would end up as penniless as everyone else.

Worthless money is worthless.

[smirkymonkey]

83. and that many desperate poor would end up killing such a small

minority of the obscenely rich.

[tomreedtoon]

97. When did rioters EVER kill the right people?

The only place is in the movie Frankenstein, when the mobs went after Baron Von Frankenstein for creating his monster.

Real world: the Watts riots of the 60's had blacks destroying their own homes and businesses, not those of their white oppressors. Soccer mobs destroy their stadiums, not their opponents.

Face it; if you think the coming economic crash will result in people like Bill Gates or Donald Trump being hung with piano wire in the public square, you're hallucinating.

[Retired AF Dem]

137. like Bill Gates being hung

Your aren't using a Windows operating system now are you?

[tomreedtoon]

161. Well, duh, do we have a choice?

There's less than ten percent Macintoshes out there, and Linux isn't an operating system, it's a hobby, like running model trains or making your own toilet paper. But does anyone doubt that Gates would be second up against the wall if the revolution happened and had half its brain cells working?

[ret5hd]

145. uhhhmmm...the french revolution?

[mondo joe]

147. Really? The Great Terror killed the right people?

I think you have a romanticized vision of the French Revolution.

[ret5hd]

149. it led to the most egalitarian system of our time.

[mondo joe]

150. That's a very Neo-Con attitude - the sort used to justify the Iraq War.

Who cares if it's based on lies? What if it leads to a democratic nation in the ME? Yeah so a bunch of people died.

Who cares if under Robespierre 18,000 people met their deaths under the guillotine (or otherwise) accused of being counter-revolutionary? They got Marie Antoinette's head so it's all justified.

:eyes:

[ret5hd]

152. yeah yeah...everybody that disagrees with you is a neo-con. we get it already.

[mondo joe]

153. No - anybody willing to play with the lives of real people to make them do your

socio-political wish fulfillment rather than their own is a NeoCon.

Edit to add: your own ignorance of the reality of the French Revolution mirrors that of the NeoCon ignorance of Iraq - so it's a pretty damn good comparison.

[tomreedtoon]

160. The French Revolution did it, but only accidentally.

They decided to kill 'em all and let God - or Robespierre's substitute for God, "Virtue" - sort 'em out. The French Revolution went into spasm mode, where executing people - whatever they believed - was the only operating principle. Danton and Robespierre eventually got beheaded by the revolution they started. So no, they weren't terribly selective about their targets.

[Karenina]

90. The GLOBAL financial system needs a complete crash

The GLOBAL financial system has its own means and ends, which have ZIP to do with sustaining life on this planet. The very concept of "interest" where "money" makes money divorced from tangible goods and services is corrupt, however entrenched for however long. The system has a fiat currency as its base and is nothing more than a huge casino and blips on a screen indicating some sick common agreement.

Our understanding of what has real value is totally skewed. People pay millions for diamonds, a common stone, artificially propped up in value and markerted as "rare." Emeralds are rare. Gold may be pretty, but copper is MUCH MORE useful.

The concept of "money" has divorced us from each other and the planet that sustains us. It's a fatally flawed human construct which along with "ownership" forms the very diseased root of our demise.

[Captain Angry]

18. People have to want to change.

The escapism they have is just a convenient distraction.

If you took away the TV and other ways of easy distraction, many people would choose new methods to not pay attention.

Too many people are working too hard to keep themselves and their family fed. They're not going to stop doing that just because all hell breaks loose. It will just be more difficult to make those ends meet.

[superkia]

49. I agree with you there!

Hell, If something were to happen to one or more of our refineries, that would throw the cost of everything way up and would affect all the average Americans and not the wealthy and politicians. Wouldn't that give Bush the power to hold off the 08 elections? I think it mentioned something about if it hurt US economy or something? That is the route I think the government...oh I mean some foreign power will attack. If we get hit by something that takes out many people again, I think that would wake too many people up to the fact that they haven't done anything to protect us. It would show all the people that feel we need to give up our freedoms to be protected, that it is all a scam to get more money and power. So I'm guessing if our government doesn't start taking most of our freedoms away soon, then something probably will happen to our economy. So sad!

If the Republicans were smart they would take as much as they can from us and then make sure a Democrat that believes in their same goals, gets into power so that the sheeple would feel change has happened and stop paying ANY attention to them at all.

[Xenotime]

135. rise up? Not a chance....

[dkofos]

4. What would you call the housing market right now??

[rucky]

7. you ain't seen nothing yet. n/t

[rucky]

5. it will harm our most vulnerable the first and the worst.

the billionaires have their offshore accounts to dip into.

I think it's inevitable and soon. Us little guys need to start looking out for each other better.

[Virginia Dare]

183. Exactly, the super rich have already covered their assets...

those with the power and the money are ten moves ahead of everybody else. They've made sure they will be able to weather the coming storm.

[PDJane]

6. A collapse is inevitable.......

It's a matter of how heavily it comes down. The question will be whether it will be a reprise of the 30's or whether it comes down gently.

For a more gentle landing, infrastructure repair, a return to sustainability and real progressive taxation....that conservative bug....will need to be employed. The wealth has to be shared; the business of class difference was supposed to be what America fought. Better work for someone like Edwards and work to reign in military spending.

[ruiner4u]

9. Thanks....

you going to open up your spare rooms if I, and others, lose their homes to this little juvenile scenario your advocating?

And we call the 'pubs heartless and uncaring...


This is up there with those idiotic "i hope gas goes up to 5/gal" and "lets have a draft so the rich will have to go" posts.. In your zeal to hurt the powerful few, your little idea would hurt a hell of a lot of the powerless.. Kudos! Way to Go !!!!!!

[Warren Stupidity]

12. Perhaps not you, but certainly to friends family and neighbors.

Let me be clear: I do not wish that this would happen, I wish instead that there were some other way to change the course we are on. What I am saying is that I do not think that anything we do is going to be effective until the system actually cracks up.

Gas is going to go way past $5 and there will be a draft. I do not want either of those things to happen but they appear to be inevitable and we appear to be powerless to effect the political change to avoid them.

[ruiner4u]

15. ...

"What I am saying is that I do not think that anything we do is going to be effective until the system actually cracks up."


well thank god your not in charge...

[warren pease]

72. Dueling Warrens...

Actually, we're on the same side much of the time, and in this case as well.

And you completely miss his point, I'm afraid. His point, at least as I read it, is that economic collapse is pretty much inevitable given the maldistribution of wealth, disappearance of the middle class, availability of easy credit (which goes for the country as well as individuals, since BushCo is propping up its failed monetary policies -- otherwise known as raping the treasury -- with foreign investment in T-Bills and other artificial sources of revenue, which *will* be either paid off (impossible), paid in interest but not principle (increasingly unlikely as the total interest owed soars beyond the ability of the US to pay it), or default (which will make today's anemic dollar look like the gold standard).

To say "well thank god your (sic) not in charge..." is to completely misunderstand his thesis. The point being, *because* he's not in charge -- and because these malevolent incompetent thieves are -- the above-cited conditions will almost certainly occur. He's not willing these things to happen; he's just the messenger for one set of possible outcomes that, unfortunately, are the ones looking more likely by the week.

And I further agree that this system is so fundamentally broken and so obviously and intentionally skewed for the sole benefit of corporate oligarchs and old-money elites that it can't be fixed by tinkering around the edges. It needs to be dismantled and rebuilt. And an economic meltdown is as good a place as any to start the process.

It's a damn shame our squish-brained fellow citizens sucked up Fux news and wingnut radio like mothers milk and believed all the fantasies and outright lies about how we're living in the best of all possible times led by one of history's true giants. If these idiots hadn't swallowed the whole damn myth and cheered as first Reagan, then Bush I, then the Triangulator in Chief and, finally, the sum of all evils in the form of Bush II trashed the country beyond recognition, we might have something left to fix.

At this point, though, after 27 straight years of fucking the poor to further enrich the plutocracy, calling dismantling social programs "reform," feeding hungry kids ketchup and calling it a vegetable, destroying virtually every single piece of pro-environmental legislation or oversight because campaign donors just won't have that kind of woo-woo nonsense getting in the way of profits, invading anyplace anytime to serve the twisted notion of American hegemony, belligerently and self-righteously excluding more than 45 million citizens from adequate health care on the grounds that we must employ market-based solutions, not socialized medicine...

The bullshit just never ends, does it? And all the good Mr. Stupidity (now that's a hell of an honorific) is doing is pointing out what will inevitably happen if these criminals aren't stopped RIGHT NOW, locked up someplace out of the way so that sane and pragmatic people can try to limit the damage. No chance of that, though, since impeachment's soooo off the table.

I should add that Warren S. doesn't need me to stick up for him. It just seemed like he had opted out of the discussion and I don't like to see nonsense go unchallenged. That's why we are where we are, after all.


wp

[Warren Stupidity]

76. thank you

sometimes I just let the turds sit there unmolested. I've been responding all over the place to similar arguments.

We are stuck in a rut. That rut is leading straight to a serious systemic failure. A political change of course that might avoid that disaster is clearly not going to happen. Once the system collapses the basis for a fundamental political change of course will exist. As others here have pointed out, that change could be worse than what we have now, rather than a reform era as in the New Deal. Our challenge as progressives is to prepare for that struggle.

[Karenina]

105. The word that describes our global economic predicament is...

en·tro·py (ntr-p)
n. pl. en·tro·pies
1. Symbol S For a closed thermodynamic system, a quantitative measure of the amount of thermal energy not available to do work.
2. A measure of the disorder or randomness in a closed system.
3. A measure of the loss of information in a transmitted message.
4. The tendency for all matter and energy in the universe to evolve toward a state of inert uniformity.
5. Inevitable and steady deterioration of a system or society.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

84. Because

we are so much better off with the ones we have in charge now right?

[sendero]

93. Whether the OP..

.... or you or I or anyone else wants it to happen or doesn't - it IS going to happen.

how bad it will be is anyone's guess - but it IS happening, and you might well try to see what good could come of it.

It's been obvious that this was coming for at least 2 years. Hope everyone has made whatever preparations they could.

[Deja Q]

13. *DING* *DING* *DING* *DING* *DING* We have a winner!!

[Subdivisions]

17. Criticism of this sort should be accompanied by solutions.

What is your solution?

[ruiner4u]

19. well my solution is NOT

kicking the middle and poor classes under the bus so I can get the fantasy utopian government I want.

[Subdivisions]

22. As has been said previously: Most Americans are not willing to

sacrifice in order to preserve freedom. That is why THEY are winning.

Oh well. It was fun while it lasted. See you in the cattle cars.

[ruiner4u]

27. Lets wait until groups of people start disappearing,

we have to wear identifiers on our clothing, we have to register family and friend associations, we cant marry people of other political parties, and we hear those magic words, "papers please" twenty times a day before we bring up cattle cars please...

when that starts to happen, I will be the first to protest and draw parallels to the Holocaust.. Until that point however, its just a little tacky to bring up cattle cars...

[Subdivisions]

31. No, what is tacky is your unwillingness to sacrifice as so many

others have (not in the Iraq "war") to preserve your right to take your kids to soccer, go shopping, and blab to your friends on you brand new iPhone.

No. You would let it get as far as the scenario you descibe before you would be willing to do something about it. You are part of the problem.

[ruiner4u]

38. Uhhh excuse me Mr Bush,

dont question my patriotism. Just because I do not want large groups of people to suffer from an economic disaster, like the OP's thread, does not make me any less of a human being.

"No, what is tacky is your unwillingness to sacrifice as so many others have (not in the Iraq "war") to preserve your right to take your kids to soccer, go shopping, and blab to your friends on you brand new iPhone."

guy, lady, whatever you are, You dont know me. You dont know what I do. And you dont know how I live my life.


"No, you would let it get as far as the scenario you describe before you would be willing to do something about it. You are part of the problem."


No, what Im saying is lets not equate whats happened in the last 6.5 years to Kristolnacht and to throw up Holocaust hyperbole every chance we get. Frankly its a sick disservice to the memory of the victims.

[Subdivisions]

45. Mr Bush? ... ? ...

"Frankly its a sick disservice to the memory of the victims."

There is no disservice where none was meant. That is your fabrication. You took a metaphorical aside and turned it into a sideshow.

Hey look. No wonder we suck! We're fighting amongst ourselves! Cute.

[tigereye]

81. why shouldn't people be able to be happy and enjoy their lives?

it is possible after all, to be politically aware, take action to improve the lives of others, and still have fun and not worry all the time....

[tomreedtoon]

99. Not according to most people here.

Have you read any messages in General Discussion on DU? They not only don't enjoy life, they don't want anyone else to, either. Which is why this is not the only web site you should regularly browse.

[mondo joe]

126. Well articulated, Tom.

It's THE most disturbing thing on DU - the absolute hostility to anyone having any joy, peace or security.

[ruiner4u]

139. i know....

its disgusting really...


the OP = "im miserable and I want everyone else to be miserable too"

[mondo joe]

143. And they keep thinking if they can make everyone miserable they'll become good revolutionaries

who eschew material goods and earthly security for some political ideal.

But they're wrong about that now, as they ever have been.

They can't fucking understand that most people just want to be happy and safe.

[ruiner4u]

157. happy and safe?

that does not matter to the OP... He advocates an idea where the most will be hurt, and the least will be annoyed...

[NuttyFluffers]

110. enjoyment is related in inverse proportion to the sacrifice needed for maintenance

obviously the proportion has been inadequate and thus here we are. and yes, in the end individuals are responsible for that individual choice.

[Don Claybrook]

35. Hitler was around a long time before the cattle cars came

And I've grown way too weary of hearing that I shouldn't call these Nazi motherfuckers by their real names.

If you don't understand this by now, you're not paying enough attention.

[DS1]

61. Criticism of hypothetical garbage doesn't warrant a "solution"

[NuttyFluffers]

111. Bush's economic destruction of this nation is hypothetical?

perhaps i misunderstand your reply...

[mondo joe]

129. Spoken like a NeoCon anytime the "war on terror" is criticized.

A bullshit neo-con style solution doesn't merit a solution.

[Telly Savalas]

43. But if we had an economic collapse, we could institute broad reforms

which could get us back to where we are now!

[Warren Stupidity]

91. But it would take 70 years

And the middle 30 or so would be pretty good for everyone. We have actually been here before. Well not quite here, there are those unpleasant externalities of peak oil and catastrophic climate change, and this whole astounding military/law enforcement industrial complex and mass media consolidation situation, that have put a unique spin on things, but we have been in a state of 'ossified kleptocracy' before in the history of our republic. We are there again.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

159. I have been on both sides of the table there..

Others have taken me into their homes and I have taken others into my home.

I would not hesitate to do so again.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Subdivisions]

14. IBTD - There is one developing. We have passed

Peak Oil and the housing bust is just getting started.

[scarletwoman]

16. Sorry, I have to disagree. The ones who will feel the most pain and lose the most will be US, not

the elites.

Economic disaster will only consolidate the power of the elite, and strengthen the already incipient fascsism inherent in our system. Look at history, look at current events -- economic collapse just builds up the warlords and kleptocrats and police state totalitarians, while the poor starve.

The already powerful have all the power they need to protect themselves. The already powerless will have even fewer means of lifting themselves out of a state of brute struggle for survival.

Yes, the system DOES need to be overthrown, but increasing the poverty and pain of the masses does not automatically translate to a successful uprising of the People. More often than not, it just brings the iron boot down harder on their necks.

sw

[Subdivisions]

25. Far be it for you to sacrifice your comfy lifestyle so that your

children will live free, breathing clean air and drinking cool, clean water.

[scarletwoman]

96. *MY* "comfy lifestyle?!?! Wow, did you ever pick the wrong DUer to lay THAT bullshit on!

I've been living in a 20' X 32' cabin in the woods with no running water for 9 1/2 years. I used to live with no electricity and only wood heat, but I managed to upgrade some years back -- but that doesn't mean I couldn't do it again if I needed to.

I'd like to get a well dug one of these years. I haven't been able to afford it so far, mostly because my property is situated on some bedrock so I can't just pound in a sand point; it will take a major drilling job going down at least 200-250 feet. So, I've been hauling water since 1998 from a gas station/trading post 9 miles away that has a free outdoor faucet.

Believe me, I'm NOT worried about my "lifestyle". I actually know how to survive on damn little, because I've done it for years. I've lived as a woodswoman to one degree or another since the late 80s, including 6 years in rural Alaska when my sons were still kids.

I know how to garden, and hunt and dress game. I know how to can my own food, and smoke and preserve fish and meat. I know how to identify and forage for the edible & medicinal wild plants that grow in my area.

I've thought long and hard about what it would take to survive a complete collapse. Salt is about the only item that I wouldn't be able to find on my own locally. Not sure if there's a local flint source, either (for fire starting -- no grocery stores means no matches) but I know how to find out. I'd miss toilet paper, but at least I already know which kinds of leaves work best. I'm pretty sure I could manage to survive a new stone age, if it came to that.

What I AM worried about is all the people already living marginal lives crowded into city slums. If things fall apart how are THEY going to find food? If things fall apart how are THEY going to have heat and water and shelter? If things fall apart how are THEY going to survive riots and lawlessness and disease and no services?

As someone else on this thread said: wishing for a disaster that will end up causing the greatest harm to the most vulnerable people, in the hopes of some kind of utopia rising out of the ruins is really pretty irresponsible.

Get real.

sw

[mondo joe]

128. Because it's worth The Great Terror to the people if you can get Marie Antoinette's head

in a basket?

Mmmmkay.

:eyes:

[NuttyFluffers]

113. the poor will always suffer more than the elites, in any system, in any period.

it is stating an obvious truism that is inherent in the very definition of those words. even in an egalitarian paradise there will be 'elites' of a sort along with 'middling functionaries' and 'the destitute.' and the lot of such 'elite' shall be better than 'the destitute'. every spectrum shall have its relative points of representation filled, and those universals shall only change in terms of total degree, never relative degree.

and many a society has reformed itself into something better than what it was before. well, at least in the beginning. it's always in the beginning, isn't it? your premise of continuous worsening after every reform just does not hold up historically, let alone theoretically (that would mean our lives are far worse than millenia ago). you are getting lost in the idea of relative degree on the spectrum than the total improvement of the spectrum itself.

[scarletwoman]

148. You are addressing a very different scenario than that proposed in the OP.

The OP says of economic disaster:

It is the only thing that is going to get people up off their overstuffed couches, away from their widescreen tvs, and out on the streets. We need a prolonged system-wide catastrophe that destroys the legitimacy of the ruling class and the established order.

I'm saying that a "system-wide catastrophe" will NOT necessarily weaken the elites -- and, in fact, may very well do the exact opposite.

You speak of "reform" -- but there is absolutely NO guarantee that the OP's hypothetical "economic disaster" will necessarily result in reforms. It can just as easily -- probably MUCH more easily -- lead to extreme totalitarianism.

Real reform needs to be rooted in carefully prepared ground -- and the time to prepare the ground must be BEFORE a collapse occurs. Simply hoping for a catastrophe to "wake people up" is nothing more than the same sort of apocalyptic thinking that drives the rapture crowd. It is the assumption that if things get bad enough, good will spontaneously arise. That's delusional thinking.

If you want good to arise, you have to start creating it in the here and now. You create it in the here and now by building alternative systems -- guerrilla cells, as it were, that devise creative community-based systems outside of the dominant paradigm; such as community gardens, bartering, micro-loans, local energy generation, consumer contracts with local farmers, community-based alternative currencies, etc.

It's hard work, of course. It takes dedication and a willingness to focus on small increments of change, rather than a passive hope for a fantasy deus ex machina that will magically put everything to rights.

sw

[GliderGuider]

151. Bam! Hammer, meet nail.

If you want good to arise, you have to start creating it in the here and now. You create it in the here and now by building alternative systems -- guerrilla cells, as it were, that devise creative community-based systems outside of the dominant paradigm; such as community gardens, bartering, micro-loans, local energy generation, consumer contracts with local farmers, community-based alternative currencies, etc.

This is precisely what's happening all over the world right now. Up to two million small independent local groups each working away on one aspect or another of Big Kahuna Problem Set. Paul Hawken wrote about them as "the largest social movement in the history of the world" in his book "Blessed Unrest". They are the one thing that has given me the most hope in my contemplation of humanity's bleak future. I wrote about them in my web article Population Decline - Red Herrings and Hope:

Start from these three realizations:
1. The genetic imperatives that drive our reproduction, consumption and competition guarantees that we will not change our civilization's value set voluntarily or preemptively.
2. Humanity is like yeast. We reproduce and consume until our ecological niche is stripped of resources and poisoned by waste, then we die off.
3. Humanity is like cockroaches. We are resourceful, adaptive and hardy, and you can't kill us all.

These three facts mean that although we are heading for a bottleneck, some portion of humanity will survive to regroup and rebuild in a massively damaged, resource-poor world. On our way through the bottleneck we will lose much of our physical and social capital. The one and only good thing about this, from a species, biosphere and planetary perspective, is that many of our existing socioeconomic structures will be forcibly and involuntarily stripped away, leaving room for new structures to take their place.

The change in perspective involves not looking forward from our current situation into the decline. Rather, step forward a couple of hundred years and look back. what I believe you will see is the rebirth of the next cycle of civilization.

The question for me has become, "How do we ensure that the seeds are in place for a value set that will survive through and bloom after the bottleneck, a value set that will ensure that the next cycle of civilization has a chance at sustainability even in such a badly damaged, resource-poor world?" How will we ensure that our descendants will eventually inherit a sustainable world, even though our current situation is not sustainable by any stretch of the imagination?

I've become convinced over the last couple of months that the seeds for such a transformation have already been planted. They are even resilient enough to make it through the bottleneck, and they carry the correct values for the rebirth I suggest.

American activist Paul Hawken has just written a tremendously important book called "Blessed Unrest" in which he describes a set of one to two million local, independent, citizen-run environmental and social justice groups. These groups exist world-wide, and each is acting on local problems of its own choosing. There is no overarching ideology beyond "making the world a better place", there is no unifying organization, no white male vertebrate leader setting the agenda. As a result the movement is extremely resilient - no government action anywhere can shut it down, even though individual groups may be suppressed. These groups make up the largest (though unrecognized) social movement the world has ever seen. For a glimpse of some of these organizations, take a look at the web site WiserEarth.org.

Hawken sees this movement as part of humanity's immune system. While I like the metaphor and think it is exactly correct, I believe the importance of these groups is much greater than just their efforts to mitigate an unavoidable collapse. These groups have been called into existence by the world's dis-ease, and do two things: they work to fix local problems now (which will mitigate some local effects of the collapse), but more importantly they act as carriers for the values of cooperation, consensus, nurturing, recognition of interdependence, acceptance of limits, universal justice and the respect for other life. Those are precisely the values that a civilization will need to achieve stability and sustainability. To top it all off, many of these groups are led by women or espouse specifically matriarchal values, one attribute I see as essential for any sustainable civilization.

At the risk of sounding sentimental, I call these groups the antibodies in Gaia's bloodstream.

I am convinced we will not save this civilization, and will lose a large fraction of humanity in the process. But I'm equally convinced that thanks to the seeds that have already been planted in these groups we have a shot at a much better one in a couple of hundred years. The crucial change in perspective required to see the hope in this is to stop looking from here forward into the decline, and instead look backward from a position out two hundred years and imagine what it will take to rebuild a truly sustainable civilization from the ashes of this one. The values required are already embodied in a resilient organization, enough of whose elements will survive to transmit a sustainable value set into the ecologically damaged, resource-depleted world we will bequeath to the future.

Become an antibody. Save the world.

[scarletwoman]

155. "Become an antibody." YES! That's wonderful! That's exactly IT!

Thank you so much! As my sig line says, "...make energetic progress in the good". It's not enough to hope for the destruction of the current paradigm, we need to be actively involved in building alternatives.

I'm off to read at your links -- hope others follow suit.

sw

[GliderGuider]

156. While you're there, here's a link to my latest oevre

I've just finished a Powerpoint I intend to use as the basis for the next round of my "End of the World as We Know It" talks. I'm very interested in comments and critiques. I haven't published the link to it on my site yet because it's still in draft.

It's a 750 kb PDF at What Happens Next.pdf

[NuttyFluffers]

176. that is the process of creation within a system, which still leads to destruction

creation, maintenance, and destruction are all equivalent to each other for they are all the same in result. even the ideas of antibody creation in a sick system results in the same thing, starving the maintenance of the current structure which inevitably leads to its destruction. it is inescapably interlinked.

what the OP is talking about is a destruction of the economic core of the current system, which needs crucial maintenance to have even a last hope of survival of the total system. it is, in essence, the firewall of last resort for the entire system. basically, if you believe there is anything good left in our system of governance, such as our constitutional structure, then system-wide fevers or diarrhea, though potentially fatal, are crucial to keep survival.

because after that maintenance is destroyed it must give birth to something new. sure it can turn into a fascist or totalitarian state, but you have to realize how short lived those systems really are. they are horrible, but they flare out rapidly, like acid burn from overharvested cotton in our country's history. and the end result is often a long sustained peacefulness from the society (a fascinatingly universal phenomenon, but only perceivable from a grand view, usually encompassing centuries).

basically it comes down to this:

to save a system without complete systemic overhaul, there are moments of major crisis to shock 'the body' into health for survival. an economic crisis does not necessarily mean a destruction of the complete system (for nation systems are more than just economics, they are social, gov'tal, world view, etc). the system, as being governed right now, is heading towards complete systemic overhaul -- literally the death of all we know and care about in our current macrosystem. this entails social, gov'tal, world view, and economic. the statement is that a massive shock would wake up 'the body's defense system.'

your alternative, the fertile earth idea, is instead a replacement of the current complete system. in your own words:

"If you want good to arise, you have to start creating it in the here and now. You create it in the here and now by building alternative systems -- guerrilla cells, as it were, that devise creative community-based systems outside of the dominant paradigm; such as community gardens, bartering, micro-loans, local energy generation, consumer contracts with local farmers, community-based alternative currencies, etc."

this is not our current system, this is a new creation. it is, as you say, 'outside of the dominant paradigm.' this is creation that shall supplant. but you must think about that -- that is far more destructive to the current system for it is a complete replacement of it. sure it may be considered better, i think it sounds wonderful myself, but it is not just an economic solution or salve. it is a cultural, economic, and gov'tal replacement from the ground up. that again, as you point out -- and is true of any full on system replacement -- does not guarantee a peaceful or better replacement. it can go any which way as well. remember, when the *whole* system collapses it is free game.

what the OP is commenting on, and just about every is missing, is that economic collapse (a facet of the system) does not necessarily destroy the entire system. many a time it rectifies itself into something that can sustain a little longer, a la FDR during the Great Depression. his post is about economic systemic collapse, not full replacement of all our systems of interaction and governance. it is the last barrier before complete failure and death. again, a fever or diarrhea versus excess antibody production or organ transplants.

destruction is not always something to be feared, and creation is not always something to be embraced. as much as i love all of those ideas that you mentioned, i understand that that is not core to our system, but an outright challenger. i'd love it if that was our system, but i must also believe we should try to rectify what we have before we completely construct a new on the side. part of that process is decay which shocks the system into re-evaluation. otherwise, following your path, we also run the very risk you say we must avoid.

essentially, i am the shiva to your brahma for vishnu abdicated responsibility of late. it is all the same in the end, but different perceptions from the same godhead.

[ben_meyers]

20. Now there's a good plan

Who makes money in a down economy? Read some history of the "great Depression", families like the Fords, Rockefeller's and Kennedy's only increased their fortunes. Who made money when the S&l's collapsed in the 80's? Not the little guy. Who is going to make money from a housing collapse? The vultures are already moving in.
An economic disaster will only benefit the already wealthy, and destroy what's left of middle America.

[tammywammy]

23. I completely disagree

The only people that would be hurt are the lower and middle classes.

[Sanctified]

24. An economic collapse would only strengthen the ruling elite

They have money to withstand any type of market downfall. But the rest of the population does not so it would be a disaster, many of the people who currently live in poverty would most likely die of malnutrition, starvation and lack of health care. Those of us in the middle class would most likely become serfs and slaves to the corporations just to be able to supply our families with crusty bread.

People wont be getting off their couches to riot, they will be getting off their couches to try and figure out how to get food and pay their mortgage.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

26. It's already occurring for the middle and lower wage earners...

*sigh* I am so discouraged by the state of this country and the failed leadership.

[Poll_Blind]

28. Bing! Your wish is granted! n/t

PB

[ocd liberal]

29. I absolutely agree with you

and I am part of that middle class that would get crunched, but we are living with a clearly unsustainable economic policy and SOMETHING has to happen. I work at Morgan Stanley and I LOVE LOVE LOVE it when the markt goes down because it is a taste of REALITY, and I'm big on reality.

[TheWraith]

30. You certainly justify your last name.

Nobody with intelligence even pretending to be a populist would be as ridiculously foolish as to suggest what you just did. If you had bothered to study history at all, you'd know that it's widespread disasters and the pressures associated with them that far more often than not facilitate the takeover of power by a handful of corrupt individuals. Your plan would make things worse, not better.

[Subdivisions]

33. Ok, you can go back to your American Idol now. n/t

[TheWraith]

34. Glad you acknowledged your inability to contribute any substance to the discussion. NT

[Subdivisions]

36. You want substance? Here you go:

"That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

Get back to me when you figure out where that quote comes from. Also, where is the substance in your post?

[TheWraith]

39. Are you being deliberately obtuse, or are you simply foolish?

Cutsie little pat retorts about the Declaration of Independence aside, you really have no possible argument in favor of what the OP is describing, nor do you comprehend the difference between change of governance and a Great Depression style economic catastrophe.

[Subdivisions]

41. I'm not being obtuse, at least not on purpose. My problem is that

people whine about the status quo yet no one is willing to sacrifice, not by actions nor financially, as in an economic disaster. The OP is correct that the only possible way that We the People will act on our own behalf is when we have to suffer economically.

[Sanctified]

47. It takes money to finance a revolution.

Our forefathers had the money and credit to finance their overthrow of tyranny. If 90% of the country were to go into poverty how would they overthrow the 10% who are still wealthy. People would be so dependent on the Government for their daily bread they would never bite the hand that fed them.

To change the course of our Government it needs to be done today not tomorrow by people who are not living in complete destitution.

[DS1]

62. This

:thumbsup:

[Subdivisions]

73. Look, I'm not being obtuse and I'm not foolish.

Are you being deliberately obtuse, or are you simply foolish? Cutsie little pat retorts about the Declaration of Independence aside, you really have no possible argument in favor of what the OP is describing, nor do you comprehend the difference between change of governance and a Great Depression style economic catastrophe.

I have "no arguement in favor of what the OP is describing"? As a matter of fact I do. In the absense of anything else, INCLUDING ELECTIONS, that can change the course we are on, an economic disaster is better than nothing to get people motivated. Yes, there is no guarantee that it would achieve the desired result, that being the removal of an oppressive government. But it is at least a chance. As it is, they are free to spy on our candidates, and us (including every word you and I are typing on this board) as they wish and there power becomes more and more solidified BY THE DAY. If the People won't be budged through outrage, maybe they will be motivated by economics. I never said I advocate for such a catastrophe. I'm simply agreeing that it MIGHT move the people to act on their own behalf.

And this: "nor do you comprehend the difference between change of governance and a Great Depression style economic catastrophe." Ummm...yes I do. We had "change of governance" in November for all the good it has done us right up until last night when the Senate voted to allow Bush to continue violating our rights as well as deleting his former crimes and the crimes of all of his cronies. "Great Depression style economic catastrophe"? I'm well aware of what happened in the Great Depression so this cutsie little retort has no legs. I don't know the difference between these two things? C'mon! You see me as some clueless newby who has absolutely no sense of my country's history and my own 42 years? How positively pompous and condescending. And all simply because I happen to agree with the OP that it might take an economic calamity to get people up off their asses and fight for their rights and their freedom.

We're supposed to be in this together. And we can disagree without ad hominem insults.

[Warren Stupidity]

78. "we can disagree without ad hominem insults"

Nah. This is DU, that is not possible. My post pissed people off. Good. I hope I am dead wrong about the way I think this is going to play out.

[TheWraith]

103. Sigh.

"I have "no arguement in favor of what the OP is describing"? As a matter of fact I do. In the absense of anything else, INCLUDING ELECTIONS, that can change the course we are on, an economic disaster is better than nothing to get people motivated."

No, it's not. It would be the worst possible thing. It would almost certainly concentrate MORE power and wealth into the hands of a few, not less. Rhetoric aside, the reality is that the average person is better off today than they have been at pretty much any point in our history. No, it's not perfect, and not really even good, but it's a hell of a lot better than most of our history. A few subjects for the researching, in case you feel like a reality check: the history of unions, the Pinkertons, predatory lending, standard of living in the 1930s, et al.

"Yes, there is no guarantee that it would achieve the desired result, that being the removal of an oppressive government."

As much contempt as I have for Bush and everyone associated with him, again, the reality is that for a "repression" factor, we've seen a lot worse. See the Alien and Sedition Acts, McCarthyism, COINTELPRO.

"As it is, they are free to spy on our candidates, and us (including every word you and I are typing on this board)"

Technically, you don't need any special permission to read messages posted on the internet.

"as they wish and there power becomes more and more solidified BY THE DAY. If the People won't be budged through outrage, maybe they will be motivated by economics. I never said I advocate for such a catastrophe. I'm simply agreeing that it MIGHT move the people to act on their own behalf."

Sure. So might a plague, or a city exploding, or monkeys flying out of my ass. But that doesn't mean any of those things would be good, or that they'd be likely to cause changes that would be in any way beneficial. Again, quite likely the opposite.

"Ummm...yes I do. We had "change of governance" in November for all the good it has done us right up until last night when the Senate voted to allow Bush to continue violating our rights as well as deleting his former crimes and the crimes of all of his cronies."

Have a sense of perspective. One small part of a proposed compromise deal was passed, with court oversight and an expiration date. To equate that to what you're describing, you might as well call a pickpocket the same as a rapist/murderer.

"I'm well aware of what happened in the Great Depression so this cutsie little retort has no legs. I don't know the difference between these two things? C'mon! You see me as some clueless newby who has absolutely no sense of my country's history and my own 42 years? How positively pompous and condescending. And all simply because I happen to agree with the OP that it might take an economic calamity to get people up off their asses and fight for their rights and their freedom."

No, I see you as clueless because you think that such a thing might yield positive results. Myself, I recognize that the massive suffering that it would engender throughout the non-moneyed class would be both unacceptable from a populist perspective, and detrimental to any kind of chance for positive change. People who are starving, who are trying to afford medicine, who are trying to keep their home from being foreclosed don't have any time for politics, and are instead ripe to be taken advantage of. Strong economic environments are provide workers with the strength to demand better treatment. When people are replacable cogs in some minimum-wage machine, they have no voice, and no opportunity to improve their lot.

[Sanctified]

40. We don't need an economic collapse to have a reason to abolish the Government.

The gentlemen who wrote that most certainly did not wait for a King to run their country into the ground before starting the revolution.

[Subdivisions]

46. Thank you. n/t

[Xenotime]

136. Personally, I like to know who's having the Best Week Ever.

[Raven]

32. How can you possibly wish for that and have a brain in your head!

Jesus! There are millions and millions of regular, hard working people who don't spend time on their overstuffed couches watching their widescreen TV's who have their life savings in this stock market and their only equity in their homes. What the hell do you think is going to happen if this economy flames out. I'll tell you. They will lose their retirement savings and their homes and someone like George Bush will come along and buy their homes from the bank. They will be destitute, he will get richer.

People will lose their jobs. They will have no money. A lot of people made a hell of a lot of money in the great depression and it wasn't the regular working stiff. So bend your brain a little bit and come up with another brilliant solution to our problems. I am so tired of people wishing for a disaster that will end up making the rich richer.

[TheWraith]

37. Amen. Some people on DU have no idea how the real world works.

They seem to think it's all neat little theories about how everything can be better if we just let the world go to shit, then a utoptia will arise from the ashes.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

87. Wait a minute

What do all you people worried about your mortgages and retirement savings thinks will happen if China calls it's notes? In case you all missed it, they have already sternly told the US to "get your financial house in order". China! Freakin China is lecturing the US on finances. How many of you thought you would see the day that happened? Do I wish for something of this type to happen? No, I don't. But, do I think about it and prepare for what I would do if it did. You bet your ass I do.

Let me analyze this. Do I want to make sure I have a 401K, a mortgage to a house that comes with obscenly high insurance premuius and taxes, a health insurance policy provided through my employer that charges me through the nose so they can cover virtually nothing, a new SUV that guzzles gas so I can pay 3+ a gallon to feed it so I can get to my second job that I have to have so I can send my kids to college for at least half the year or would I be willing to buckle down and grit my teeth through something that will most definitely not be pleasant so that maybe, just maybe there will be some shred of hope that my sons and their sons after them actually have the freedom and promise of a chance at happiness that was talked about by our founding fathers?

My answer, I love my kids and my grandkids that are not even here yet enough to be willing to toss it all away and join the rebels fighting in the streets if there was at least the hope that things could change. And the relationship between my boys and me is such that they know I will ALWAYS take care of them if I have to beg borrow and steal to do it. They would understand. I would be willing to die for that!

[TheWraith]

101. The Chinese will never call their notes.

They know that we would refuse to pay, and it would effectively nuke their entire economy. Remember, they're as dependent on us as we are on them, probably more so. They're much happier getting their debt maintainence money.

As for the rest, I think you underestimate how incredibly bad for the average person an actual financial calamity would be. Try reading up on the Great Depression.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

120. I think

You have no idea what I know or think so it would be best if you stopped trying to tell me that I am not as smart as you on the subject.

My grandmothers both lived through the depression and I have studied it so I am quite aware of how bad it would be. But thank you for taking a superior attitude and thinking I am not as smart as you. What color is the sky in your superior world?

As for thinking that China would NEVER call their notes, never say never. People thought that something like the holocaust would never happen. People thought the US would never unilaterally invade a county and tank this one in the process. And the list goes on. You might want to think long and hard about what you think would NEVER happen. The reality is, it could. If the majority thinks it will or will not is irrelevant the reality is the situation exists that make it possible.

[A HERETIC I AM]

184. China in NO WAY, SHAPE OR FORM can "call their notes".

The "notes" you are referring to are Bonds. They are US Treasury bonds and what you are suggesting is that the Chinese Government can demand their principal back (otherwise known as a "put") before the bonds mature.

Well, US Treasuries bonds do not have a put provision. They can not go to the Treasury and demand their principal before maturity. It simply doesn't work that way.

This nonsense idea pops up on DU from time to time. It is a falsehood to believe that China (or any holder of US Treasury debt securities) has somehow an ability to demand repayment of principal. The ability does not exist. They purchased bonds with specific coupon rates and maturity dates. They are free to trade them on the open market but they can not demand early repayment. They would get laughed off the steps of the Treasury building.

[mondo joe]

125. They're little Robespierres.

They're willing to sacrifice real people for their dream of virtue.

[Warren Stupidity]

53. I don't wish for it.

I wish in fact that we could be effective reforming the system and ending the kleptocracy's hold on power absent a catastrophic collapse. I just do not see it happening.

[asthmaticeog]

95. The point is, a catastrophic collapse won't hurt the oligarchs at all.

They have foreign properties, investments in foreign currencies and, more importantly, in gold. Even if a loaf of bread goes up to $100 in cost, they're more than equipped financially to ride out such a period of economic calamity. Joe Dayjob will be royally fucked, though. Even people who make 6-figure salaries will be fucked. And someone who's already starved to death isn't very useful in a food riot. So be careful what you wish for, Mr. Stupidity.

[n2doc]

115. Yep. How is this any different from the RW'ers wishing for another Attack?

I am sorry, but a progressive never wishes harm on any innocent people. Never. And only Justice for the Guilty.

[mondo joe]

123. Exactly. It's an identical example of a frustrated authoritarian wishing for a disaster

to force people to behave as he wants, rather than as they want.

[Babsbrain]

42. We're going to have one soon

When the petrodollar converts to the eurodollar to be the basis of oil financial transactions, which is happening, the dollar will lose up to 40% of its value.

[LongTomH]

44. Two questions for everyone:

1) Is it possible to have a discussion, with honest disagreements, without resorting to name-calling and the argument ad hominem?

2) Can someone recommend some good sources for history of the Great Depression?

[Subdivisions]

48. I'll sign on to #1. As for #2, I'll be watching for a more informed response.

[tammywammy]

52. Here's a few books

The Great Depression: America in the 1930s (Paperback)
by T. H. Watkins
http://www.amazon.com/Great-Depression-America-1930s/dp/0316924547/ref=pd_bbs_5/103-0524284-7211854?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1186251880&sr=8-5

Daily Life in the United States, 1920-1940: How Americans Lived Through the Roaring Twenties and the Great Depression (Paperback)
by David E. Kyvig
http://www.amazon.com/Daily-Life-United-States-1920-1940/dp/1566635845/ref=pd_bbs_3/103-0524284-7211854?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1186251880&sr=8-3

The Forgotten Man: A New History of the Great Depression
by Amity Shlaes

http://www.amazon.com/Forgotten-Man-History-Great-Depression/dp/0066211700/ref=pd_bbs_2/103-0524284-7211854?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1186251880&sr=8-2

Shales presents a different viewpoint on the Depression, but it's an excellent read and thought provoking. I also have read the other two listed and also liked them as well.

[Subdivisions]

56. Thanks alot tammywammy! I firmly believe that despite

what anyone wishes or what anyone believes with regard to the opinion expressed by the OP, there WILL BE a major economic disaster and it has already begun. In fact, I believe it will be WORSE than the Great Depression. WAY WORSE.

I am on a tight budget so which one would you recommend the most highly?

[Warren Stupidity]

55. No. Google.

I expect the name calling. I invite the obvious insults with my handle. I am the clown in the room who is willing to state the obvious. Somebody has to wear the silly nose and the big shoes.

[Subdivisions]

58. And good for you for doing so, Warren. You're right. Not every

one is going to share your opinion. Some are even going to HATE it. Some are even going to just immediately put you on ignore.

I hate to say it, but you have to have a tough skin around here. I just wish we weren't so far apart on certain issues. Our bond with each other is fairly weak.

[RandomKoolzip]

68. Studs Terkel's "Hard Times" is also excellent.

It's a heartbreaking read, but it puts all this stuff in persepective.

And unlike the OP, it makes sense. :grr:

[Missy Vixen]

50. I never fail to be amazed at the world view

of those who believe, as another person has already posted, that most of our friends and neighbors are doing nothing more than sitting back and watching the world go by. Those with families are desperately trying to keep food in the mouths, clothes on the backs and a roof over the heads of their kids, not to mention wondering where the hell the money's coming from for braces and college and all of the other things those in a better economic situation don't even worry about.

To wish for a financial collapse is to wish for serious negative ramifications for these folks. I suppose their deaths would mean nothing in the bigger picture, would it? What do you think would happen to the violent crime rate across the United States, for example? Then again, if we get our Utopia, it just doesn't matter what happens to them, does it?

Julie

[Warren Stupidity]

57. I do not wish for the collapse.

a) I think it is inevitable given the direction we are heading.
b) Nothing is going to get better for the vast majority of americans, ironically exactly those who would benefit most from a progressive agenda put into practice, until the kleptocracy is abolished and it isn't going to get abolised until (a).

I am not relishing the collapse, I am stating what I believe to be the reality of the political crisis we are in. If you think there is some other way that there is going to be the fundamental reforms needed, a political sea-change on the order of and perhaps greater than the New Deal, please elaborate.

[Missy Vixen]

85. Let me refer to the opening line of your thread

>We need an economic disaster.<

You claim that you do not "wish for the collapse," but your opening post actively calls for one.

>If you think there is some other way that there is going to be the fundamental reforms needed, a political sea-change on the order of and perhaps greater than the New Deal, please elaborate.<

I actually think the onus of proof is on you. I stated that an economic collapse would harm those that can least afford or survive such a problem. You continue to insist you're not looking for it, then you restate the idea again in your response. In the meantime, believing that all Americans are "sheeple", etcetera, just makes us all look uninformed and -- dare I say it? -- elitist.

Julie

[NuttyFluffers]

114. research the American Revolution

all those "everyday struggles for survival" has been there before. always have, always will. the people who made up those historical struggles were very much like you and me, they just happened to be led by an elite who were being squeezed just as bad. the difference, and the reason they are in history books (but not as prominent as their leaders) is they got up and did something about their conditions -- and won (that's the crucial part).

using our struggle as an intimate example, economic oppression was very much a part of the cruel conditions that led to action. things were getting difficult before, but it took a severe turn for the worse to push a needed amount of the populace to do something. things were steadily degrading everywhere -- as all systems die, and colonialism was starting to feel the first stinging pangs -- and those pressures ended up pushing our nation's ancestors into action. but unlike other societies that balked because of cultural issues, something we for the most part are not as tied to, we take a lot of abuse willingly, up until a point. and that point seems to repeatedly be excruciating economic pain. and unlike heading things off preventing such agony, it often takes crisis proportions to move our nation's bulk. so no, we as modern americans aren't so different or special or fragile as you presume. this story is old, and there really is nothing new under the sun.

[smoogatz]

51. I'm sorry, but how is this different from the Republicans

wishing for a terrorist attack? A major depression or other economic catastrophe would disproportionately affect the poor, the sick, the elderly and those whose jobs are vulnerable to economic conditions. The rich would be relatively secure. You think the poor would rise up and storm the gated communities? What, like they did in the '30s? Posts like this one are yet another argument in favor of the "un-recommend" button.

[Warren Stupidity]

54. Again, I would rather this were not the reality.

Perhaps 'need an economic collapse' is the wrong phrasing. What I mean is that is what it is going to take. Unlike the PNAC conspiracy, which needed another Pearl Harbor to set their plans in motion and therefore set out to make sure that one happened, I neither want the catastrophe nor do I have the means to create one. I simply do not see the nation changing course absent such an event. Reality sucks.

[smoogatz]

67. Change course to what?

The last time we had a serious economic disaster, we lucked into the FDR, the New Deal and the economic benefits of WWII. I'm not sure we have any reason to think that confluence of enlightened leadership and propitious events is likely to repeat itself.

[Warren Stupidity]

69. On that we agree. nt.

[DS1]

59. The problem with this absolutly idiotic concept is that crashes like the

one you're hoping for is when the rich buy up more property on the cheap, and make themselves richer.

[Warren Stupidity]

63. Some do for sure.

However I see no evidence that in general economic catastrophes result in a greater disparity in wealth distribution. What we can see from the historical data is that over the last 30 years there has been a steady and alarming increase in wealth distribution disparity that coincides with the consilidation of control over the federal government by the kleptocracy. This growth in disparity has occurred absent any prolonged economic collapse. For example:

Table 3: Share of wealth held by the Bottom 99% and Top 1% in the United States, 1922-1998.
Bottom 99 percent Top 1 percent
1922 63.3% 36.7%
1929 55.8% 44.2%
1933 66.7% 33.3%
1939 63.6% 36.4%
1945 70.2% 29.8%
1949 72.9% 27.1%
1953 68.8% 31.2%
1962 68.2% 31.8%
1965 65.6% 34.4%
1969 68.9% 31.1%
1972 70.9% 29.1%
1976 80.1% 19.9%
1979 79.5% 20.5%
1981 75.2% 24.8%
1983 69.1% 30.9%
1986 68.1% 31.9%
1989 64.3% 35.7%
1992 62.8% 37.2%
1995 61.5% 38.5%
1998 61.9% 38.1%
Sources: 1922-1989 data from Edward N. Wolff, Top Heavy (New Press: 1996). 1992-1998 data from Edward N. Wolff, "Recent Trends in Wealth Ownership, 1983-98," Jerome Levy Economics Institute, April 2000.
http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html

I would note that this data indicates that from 1929-1939 wealth disparity decreased as the bottom 99% increased their share of the pie during the Great Depression.

Note also the steady decline in our share of the wealth of this nation from 1976 on. In 1998 we were at a level unseen since 1929, and it has only gotten worse since then.

[warren pease]

86. Then we must take steps to make sure it doesn't happen this time...

Assuming America doesn't go the fascist route, which is a hell of a big "if," a motivated incoming progressive administration would preempt that kind of behavior by:


- immediately raising taxes on the rich to 1960 levels (roughly 90 percent marginal rate)

- enacting a set of anti-speculation laws which would specifically prohibit anyone engaged in certain businesses (real estate, banking, mortgage brokering, developers, and so forth) and above a certain income and/or net worth level from buying foreclosures for XX years (and immediately decertify all the front companies that would spring up to hide the true buyers)

- immediately confiscate all the untaxed profits sitting in various numbered accounts around the Caribbean so that these illegal piles of cash can't be used to steal peoples' homes.


And that's just for starters.

The ultimate goal would be to make the climate in this country so lousy for the plutocrats to engage in business as usual that maybe we'd get lucky and all the bastards would leave for a new life of unspoiled accumulation and exploitation in Dubai.

And that's it from fantasy central for today. Wouldn't that be a blast, though? A tireless campaign designed to oppress the rich. Sure it's bigoted; sure it's illegal (or at least it is now) -- but it's indisputably just and I have absolutely nothing against a little class warfare, from the left side for a change.


wp

[Lydia Leftcoast]

60. Here's the problem:

Economic disaster can lead just as easily to fascism as to a left-leaning revolution. Cases in point: Germany and Italy in the 1930s.

Americans are unfamiliar with the language of social democracy, because it's been demonized in the popular media since World War II. A goodly percentage of the population will have an immediate negative reaction to the idea, due to nearly sixty years of (bullshit) stories about Sweden's high suicide rate or people with heart attacks having to wait six weeks to see a doctor in the UK.

However, they have been told over and over again that militarism is patriotism, that God has chosen America for a unique mission, that America is the greatest country in the world, that the entire rest of the world is dying to come live here, that we're the only truly free people in the world, that anyone who works hard can get rich so it's your own fault if you're not, that people who read books and enjoy the arts are snobs and that regular people prefer TV and pro sports, and that politics is boring, anyway, so go back to more important activities such as discussing point spreads and following the latest exploits of the latest mentally unstable celebrity.

Absent rock-solid, principled leadership ready to stand up to the Big Boys instead of sucking up to them, the Dem would wimp out and appear ineffectual, and then some Republicanite would come along, talk tough, dumb down and militarize the society further, and convince the American people that their salvation lies in hatred: hatred of immigrants, hatred of gays, hatred of other countries. It's the oldest trick in the book ("Hey, serfs, so you're starving and miserable? It's because the witches have cursed you! Get the witches!")

Given the sixty years of propaganda and the intellectual laziness that the media have fostered, I can't see the American people demanding a leftist revolution. A fascist revolution? Very definitely. :scared:

[Warren Stupidity]

64. Oh you could very well be right.

I don't diagree with your analysis. My point is simply that the entrenched kleptocracy's hold on power will remain unchallenged until the system actually collapses. What comes out of that collapse might very well be your nightmare scenario.

[ruiner4u]

70. Well which is it then?

Xanadu or Bedlam?

"Only a collapse of the hideous system they have constructed will destroy their hold on power. I wish this were not so, I wish there were some other way, but I do not see what that other way is."

I really hope you take all the disagreements of your post to heart, and reflect on your OP.

[Warren Stupidity]

74. Which is it? It will be up to us.

[Name removed]

75. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Warren Stupidity]

77. Actually I've lost about 8 pounds.

[warren pease]

79. And that's a hell of a problem...

I keep seeing how Central and South America are gradually moving away from the IMF and World Bank exploitative model and toward more progressive governments responsive to actual human needs, and I think how people in the US must be so ready to rid themselves of the soulless plutocrats who actively seek to destroy their lives in pursuit of ever more money and power.

But we are talking about a population with significant numbers of undereducated, uninformed, overmedicated, borderline-imbeciles drunk on celebrity worship keep in the dark by a dysfunctional mass media owned and controlled by the very same plutocrats expressly to feed us a continuous diet of irrelevant happy talk and big business boosterism -- along with large doses of slander and libel aimed at anyone who challenges corporate orthodoxy.

With the peasants blaming themselves for their economic inadequacy, whoever steps in to redirect that blame toward a demonic external enemy or internal threat to their way of life is going to win the hearts and minds game. History shows that fascism tends to be the peoples' choice in such circumstances.

So your point is exceptionally disturbing. Obviously the Dems aren't the answer, and can't possibly be, since they're wholly owned subsidiaries of the same amoral bastards who give marching orders to the GOP.

So it's getting down to fight or flight. Fortunately, I have a standing offer of a crawl space somewhere north of the border if things get just a little more repressive. Kind of Ann Frank-like, eh?


wp

[KillCapitalism]

94. I fear the same.

I have hope however that once the economy crashes that people will see that capitalism is a failed and corrupt system and that a socialist system will take it's place. It almost happened during the great depression, there were many socialist supporters and a fairly large & active socialist party in America.

[NuttyFluffers]

116. fascist revolutions, though mind-blowingly horrible, tend to flare out rapidly

what's the longest surviving one you can think of? me, Franco Spain. and that was 40ish years. horrible, but an absolute blip in terms of nation states.

and another thing, after fascism, these regions tend to swing left -- and very hard, to the result of incredibly prosperity. modern japan, germany, spain, italy anybody?

that said, i would LOVE that none of this happen at all. but if wishes were reality... this is what we got, this is likely where we're going, and perhaps the only barrier left is absolute revulsion at being made penniless on purpose by these assholes in gov't. but if that fails, then yes, we'll just end up traveling 'that bad road.'

but if there are other methods to move the bulk of the populace to meaningful change, i'm all ears! :D

[Cha]

65. It's headed that way

because of the total incompetency running our country.

It's like a death wish of the bushits..only instead of their death they want our infra-structure to collapse(who cares how many Americans perish?) and our economy to rival hoover's.

[The Cleaner]

66. Funny...I JUST posted a thread about Jim Kramer of CNBC Saying: "This IS ARMAGEDDON"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1512612

[Monk06]

88. I just saw that video and emailed it to a group of private financiers that I know.

Cramer is not by nature an emotional person.

He is desperate because the housing crisis is
the result of excess liquidity and the only
solution he sees to the problem is lowering
the discount rate.

Unfortunately artificially low interest rates
and mortgage credit based only on the debtors
promise to pay is the root of the crisis.

Cramer's solution is to keep the Fed rate low
in the hope that lenders can finesse their way
out of a bubble they created for themselves.

The Fed has followed a supply side strategy since
Reagan where low rates were seen as the solution
to every problem.

Inflation? Lower rates

Job and wealth creation? Lower rates and cut taxes
during an expensive open ended war. Meanwhile increase
national debt while the dollar sinks against the Euro,
the Yen and every other world currency except the Yuan
which is pegged to the dollar.

Now the Fed is in a situation where they can neither
raise nor lower interest rates without making the
situation worse.

They are now talking about raising the national debt
limit from 9 Trillion to 10 Trillion.

Why not 11 or 12 Trillion while you're at it?

If this crisis is not managed and soon the US dollar
will cease to be the world's reserve currency. It will
just be fiat money to be traded by foreign buyers to
their own advantage.

A weak US dollar is also very attractive to foreign investors
who can leverage the dollar discount to buy every US fixed
asset that isn't nailed down for bargain prices.

The end result is that foreign banks will own the US economy
and the US government. That will be the end of US democracy
as we know it. When a country is sold to foreign interests
a citizen's vote is meaningless.

[bleedingheart]

71. My immigrant grandfather felt that people can never appreciate the good until the rug gets pulled

from under them...

He could never understand people voting republican...basically against their better interests...

Basically the system has to fail us completely for folks to get motivated to do anything...

[B Calm]

80. Have you looked at the DOW this week?

[debbierlus]

82. You will get your wish soon enough -

But, it is going to be a disaster with a lot of suffering...

You are right, the only thing that usually gets real change is CRISIS...that is why the New Deal went into effect after the Depression. People were suffering & they wanted it to end, & then KNEW the only chance they had was working together.

[CGowen]

89. W could finally declare his martial law, great n/t

[sanskritwarrior]

92. Forgive me if I pray we are spared

any kinds of disaster........

Only the truly deranged pray for ruin..........

[JVS]

98. You need one, send all your money to me.

[lovuian]

100. Yes when people get hungry and in despair

and have nothing to lose

Anger really is quite the motivator

[krispos42]

102. Oh, good, we're right on schedule then

The Republicans are driving us right into the toilet.

[Blue_Tires]

104. i've had my own ongoing personal financial disaster for awhile nt

[leaninglib]

106. you will get your wish, but not for quite some time.

A few years after the boomers begin retiring; the house of cards will come tumbling down.

[tom_paine]

107. Are you SURE about that, Warren?

I see a different side of history. I also see that Hitler used the eceonmic catastrophe to come into power.

Prescott Bush and the rest tried to enlist Smedley Butler in 1933-4 (some coincidence, eh?) to become America's Dictator (we would have to wait another 66 years for that) and felt empowered enough to get away with it because we were going through a period of instability because of an economic calamity.

While what you say is occasionally true, more often such an economic catastrophe benefits the evil rich, not the decent rich nor the rest of us.

So I categorically will not hope for one, though one is probably coming.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

108. I think there's a lot of misunderstanding of this OP. I think there's little doubt that if

an economic collapse hit, that it would effect the wealthy the least and the middle class and poor the most.

However, if I read the OP correctly, it's the complacency of these same middle class, lower middle class, and poor, who represent by FAR the largest voting bloc in America, that is the biggest problem in our political system.

Because they still have widescreen TVs to watch and XBOXes to play, they are still willing to not vote, or listen to FOX and Rush and vote for Republicans, or blue dog type Dems, in enough numbers to keep people like Bush in power and prevent the appearance of a true populist agenda, populist candidates.

A lot of the posters are decrying the fact that it's these people on the middle to lower end of the economic strata who'd be hurt worst by a collapse. I think that's the OP's EXACT POINT, that maybe it's just necessary for these people, which includes a lot of DU by demographic, to be literally put out of their homes or not have a job to realize that "hey I'm actually fucked over, for real, by this system, and I'd better do something to change it NOW". After all, after the Gilded age of Robber Barons, wasn't the Crash and Great Depression a necessary precondition for the populism of FDR and his Great Society to take hold?

If you had a populace who actually CARED enough, the things we bemoan daily could be changed virtually overnight, certainly within a two-four year election cycle, whether it's fat-cat campaign financing, health care coverage, bullshit rigged voting machines or whatever, because a motivated voting public would simply sweep out candidates who were clearly not meeting those needs. And populist candidates would emerge who would meet them. The candidates are not emerging now because there's no clear public demand for them. The closest thing to that, people like Kucinich, are completely marginalized. If Americans were polling 50 percent for Kucinich for president, different story.

I don't think the OP is necessarily advocating a violent revolution, although that's one of the possible outcomes of such a scenario. I suspect the biggest effect short of that is that people would be MOTIVATED to VOTE, and to vote for actual populst candidates who'd address the real economic needs of the society. That clearly is not happening now, based both on our pitiful national voter turnout, and the candidates that are being elected.

[NuttyFluffers]

117. i read his post similarly

and you too point to a national history showing a pattern. i used other ages, such as the madness of king george before the revolution. but the point is the same, this seems to be a national pattern of behavior. if we had a more engaged populace who were willing to do an ounce of prevention versus a pound of cure, then i think we could avoid this. furthermore, if such a populace was so it would be right to call out against what would seem irresponsible "wishes." but the reality is not such a populace, so the calling out as we've seen is just reactionary fear, and perhaps attached to a glossed over understanding of our history.

[NuttyFluffers]

109. well, Bush is going that direction already

but yes, essentially we are a society that does the right thing... at the very last moment when the only other option is complete destruction. check out our history. oh, we talk a good game. but the history of our actions, if anyone pays attention to it, speak louder than that.

no, you are right. and, perhaps to your surprise, most of the youth are hip to this. that's why there's a large contingent completely wrapped in apathy. apathy summons entropy which destroys all systems. current gov't just shifted this process into high gear with monumental theft; it'll all correct itself soon enough. though i expect quite a few flesh wounds and tears when the dust settles.

but don't let that sadden you. there's apparently enough faith in DU against this reality that maybe, just maybe, there's a chance to reverse all of this. we'll just see in the future.

[Geek_Girl]

112. We need run off elections and we need to do away with our two party system

I've been trying to think why our country is in the shitter and the Europeans and Canadians seem to have a better handle on their government. The American voters need a choice. The two parties basically have a monopoly and they know the voters don't have much of choice. As a life long democrat I think I've finally have come to this conclusion.

[NuttyFluffers]

118. i think parties should be banned, public financing the only financing period...

and political advertisements for television completely banned except for scheduled debates that include all contenders -- which includes not only candidates but proponents/opponents of propositions. i don't trust television owned by business, or gov't, one iota and absolutely believe it is the prerogative of a society to control (aka. regulate) such a powerful tool/weapon.

but then some people would say i'm an egalitarian "republican-ist." i believe in the concept of a republic, checks and balances, and a devotion to the idea that all people's contributary worth is equivalently valuable and thus necessitates equal protection and support from the state. also known as 'crazy goddam commie sonzabitch' in this country. :silly:

[Prisoner_Number_Six]

119. We already HAVE one- his name is George *bush.

:shrug:

[salin]

121. there are already so many people living on the edge of poverty,

it is only those who have some cushion who can wish for such tragic consequences to be foisted upon the truley neediest.

There may be a huge financial crises in the coming years - the levels of debt carried from the individual to corporate to governmental (all levels) are one big leveraged house of cards just teetering. Even with that said... I can not hope for it to happen, I work with too many families who are already having to make ridiculously hard trade-offs just to survive - and it would be absolutely crushing for them.

[mondo joe]

122. This is no less vile than PNAC's desire for a modern Pearl Harbor.

If the people won't behave the way you want them to, you're calling for a disaster to make them do it.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

124. obviously you are not poor.

who do you think gets hit hardest in any economic disaster?

[marmar]

127. Signed, sealed, delivered....

I think it's just a matter of time now.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

131. I have one word

to describe where this country is heading. Rome

For everyone talking about how people don't know their history, there was history before this country even existed. Go back and read about the Roman Empire and see if things don't sound just a little too familiar.

They marched around the world taking over everything in their path declaring everyone else irrelevant. They centralized all of the power in the hands of a few. All of the wealth was in the hands of the few. Their population became complacent and government became irrelevant. They stretched their military too thin. Their infrastructure crumbled around them. What happened to the mighty Roman empire? They imploded. Just as we are on the path of right now.

[knight_of_the_star]

130. And what makes you different from the Fundies who want Rapture?

Aside from the terminology you're asking for something that would hurt the poor and middle classes most and possibly lead to more than just economic collapse.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

132. The difference is

This is not being wished for by anyone here. It's a real possibility because of the path this country is on. Do you not see that? Wishing for it out of thin air and seeing the writing on the wall are two different things.

What do you propose to motivate the complacent population into not allowing this disaster to continue? Sometimes reality is a hard pill to swallow. And so far, nothing has changed. We have now what we have had for the past 6 years. More of the same. The senate just voted in a last minute deal to allow Bush to continue stealing our rights. Probably so they could continue on with their regulary scheduled month long vacations. This is the new democratic controlled congress that was freshly elected. But hey, at least the majority has a D behind their name now right. That's all that really matters.

[knight_of_the_star]

133. You would advocate putting everyone on the chopping block then?

Considering that in an economic collapse the people who would suffer most would be the ones on the bottom of the economic ladder so to speak, the ones that this would allegedly help. Not to mention that hoping for an economic collapse is in my mind no different than hoping for the end of the world, be it by divine intervention or by starting a nuclear war, either way you are wishing for great ill on the heads of ALL people around the world, not just here just to get people to see things the way you want them to.

[mondo joe]

134. "Motivate the complacent population"? Right out of the PNAC playbook.

Ugh.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

138. You DoKnow That The First Scapegoats Would Be The People Who Are Struggling The Most Now

eom

[jpgray]

140. "Ends justifies the means" is the most ignorant and hateful political strategy in existence

Millions don't need to suffer, so long as you aren't committed to a sea change in a few years. If you're willing to have -fewer- people suffer and change to occur over a longer period, such drastic measures aren't necessary. Note how long it took the GOP to build their -very- brief majority: it took decades.

[mondo joe]

142. I used to not understand how liberals could have become the NeoCons - but the OP reminds me

that there is an unfortunate streak among some who identify as liberal that is all "ends justifies the means".

[DemocratSinceBirth]

141. The Old "Worse The Better" Argument

In 1968 Michael Harrington, a committed democratic socialist, tried to get the New Left to support Humphrey over Nixon... The New Left argued there was virually no difference betwen Nixon and Humphrey and things would get so bad under Nixon the nation would turn to them... The neo-Marxists called it "maximizing the contradictions"... Well, things got so "bad" under Nixon that he won the largest Electoral College and popular vote combination victories in the history of the republic...

[TheWraith]

187. The old face of Naderism. NT

[GliderGuider]

144. See how careful you have to be with words?

Warren, you're seeing the same kind of misinterpretations I get when I talk about precipitous global population decline. Not everyone is capable of hearing a message like this, and so assumes you are giving them one they can understand. You have my sympathies. Sharpen up your rhetoric, tighten up your language and non illegitimati carborundum.

To pull everyone's eyes up for a moment from the the American soil under your feet for a quick gaze at the far horizon, the problems you are all sensing are far larger than you suspect. They are in fact global in scope. The nature of the current US administration, while a proximate cause for the immediate suffering of many, is really just a symptom of these underlying problems. The problems are not specifically American, though American policies and interests play a large part in them.

The global system is breaking down world-wide right now. The drivers are ecological collapse and the decline of net energy supplies (aka Peak Oil). I'm still undecided whether the global economic crisis is likewise a symptom or is a driver in its own right: the end result of a few centuries of exponential growth driven by a combination of human genetic influences (the need to consume) and the concept of charging interest (the need to turn a profit). In the end it doesn't really matter, I suppose.

These problems are manifesting everywhere from Russia and China to Nigeria, Indonesia, Great Britain, Australia and even here in my own beloved Canada. They are being spread through the global web of trade in commodities of all kinds (plastic bathtoys, diesel locomotives, jobs, food...). That web was created to bring unheard-of efficiencies to the global economy, but in the course of doing so it has inadvertently reduced the resilience of our civilization. This loss of resilience has left us extraordinarily vulnerable to small disruptions. These vulnerabilities are now being tested by the impersonal forces of resource depletion, waste generation and the very economic structures in whose service they were accidentally created.

In times like these the US administration is merely an example of the authoritarian governments that are embraced so easily in hard times. Look for such governments to become the rule rather than the exception over the next 20 years.

Work your butts off for democracy, folks. The door is closing on that brave experiment, and if it slams I don't think many will get back out. You must assume positive change is still possible, but I'd caution you not to be too disappointed if it turns out to be too late. The forces arrayed against us are much larger than mere politics, and Mother Nature does not negotiate.

[Subdivisions]

146. I'm so glad you showed up!

I agreed with the OP to some extent in that we need SOMETHING, ANYTHING to motivate people into fighting back. Then when I addressed someone for criticising the OP (I suggested that criticism should be accompanied by solutions), I got viciously excoriated! I'm in bandages here!

I came here looking for comfort among friends and I get attacked instead. I try to tell these people that bigger trouble is coming and they don't want to hear it. I just don't understand it. :shrug:

Thanks for a bit of reason. People will get the message none too soon.

[Karenina]

182. Thank you for the blast of fresh air!

:yourock:

[PBass]

154. Offensive thread, IMO. Wishing for mass suffering is vile and disgusting.

"Only a collapse of the hideous system they have constructed will destroy their hold on power."

You're a sick puppy, and an idiot.

[ruiner4u]

158. Yup...

[GliderGuider]

162. There's not a chance you're misinterpreting him?

Perhaps you're reading his words though a filter of your own world-view?

I think he used "What we need" in a very colloquial sense, when what he intended was more along the lines of "What it would take?" After all, if someone has a comfortable life, usually it takes some sudden discomfort to make them climb out of their rut. I know it did for me.

Contemplating catastrophic change is uncomfortable. Most people prefer to live in a world where such things are not possible, even if they have to create that world internally. The powers that be have such a tight hold on the reins of the world at this point that it would take a significant, even catastrophic, rupture of the system to dislodge them. They have tried to secure their position by ensuring that such a rupture doesn't happen. I'm pretty sure that's why your boys are in Iraq right now, for example. If you want the forces of light to regain the throne you may have to hope for that rupture. Otherwise it's going to be Business as Usual until Thelma and Louise's Thunderbird rockets off the cliff with the throttle wide open.

[Truth2Tell]

174. GG, I think the critics know full well they are misinterpreting

Warren. What burns so many is that Warren implicitly indicts them in his analysis. So they misstate and demean his position in their anger.

Warren's view implies - as a few others have clearly pointed out - that many middle and lower class working men and women are responsible for their own miserable plight thanks to their own complacency. Warren implies that a little more suffering may shake them from their slumber, motivate them to act, and ultimately improve their lot (if I'm getting this right).

This is a very tough egg to swallow. It requires that we blame the victims (working class Americans) for the crimes committed against them. And when I look at some of the dipshit Wal-Mart shopping, TeeVee addled zombies driving by me in their Escalades and Armadas I am very much tempted to adopt this view. After all, why can't people just wake the f up?

But I don't think I can. I reluctantly accept that it is not the fault of the ignorant that they are ignorant - and that my anger at them does nothing to help them or me. So while I share Warren’s frustration, I cannot share his hope for a disaster. It may come despite all efforts, but I cannot hope for it.

[Beerboy]

163. Yes, I am Sooo praying for an economic collapse!

The I-35 bridge in Minneapolis last week only whetted my appetite, I too want all my investments, my job, and security to vanish like 1929.
"We Need an Economic Disaster". Which Democratic candidate for any office do you suppose is going to adopt that as their campaign philosophy?
I think wanting an economic collapse is economic idiocy of the highest order, not to mention the concerns of hundreds of millions of Americans going to work and paying their bills.
Flame me if you want, I don't know you and probably don't want to, because you're advancing an idea so utterly fucking stupid.

[Subdivisions]

164. This is the type of destructive and vicious response to someone

that has poisoned this once constructive venue.

[mondo joe]

165. It's an appropriate respponse to a vile - not to mention idiotic - post.

Gee, the people aren't sufficiently radicalized? Let's hope for enormous suffering so they'll get good and pissed!

Too bad PNAC thought of it first.

:nopity:

[GliderGuider]

167. Are you sure you're not just seeing what you want to see?

As I said http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=1512009&mesg_id=1523086">above,

Perhaps you're reading his words though a filter of your own world-view?

I think he used "What we need" in a very colloquial sense, when what he intended was more along the lines of "What it would take?" After all, if someone has a comfortable life, usually it takes some sudden discomfort to make them climb out of their rut. I know it did for me.

Contemplating catastrophic change is uncomfortable. Most people prefer to live in a world where such things are not possible, even if they have to create that world internally. The powers that be have such a tight hold on the reins of the world at this point that it would take a significant, even catastrophic, rupture of the system to dislodge them. They have tried to secure their position by ensuring that such a rupture doesn't happen. I'm pretty sure that's why your boys are in Iraq right now, for example. If you want the forces of light to regain the throne you may have to hope for that rupture. Otherwise it's going to be Business as Usual until Thelma and Louise's Thunderbird rockets off the cliff with the throttle wide open.

[mondo joe]

168. I'm sure that I think I take his meaning.

Error or misinterpretation is always possible.

What do you take it to mean when PNAC wrote in Rebuilding America's Defenses (in the section "Creating Tomorrow's Dominant Force"): "Further, the process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event––like a new Pearl Harbor"

[GliderGuider]

169. Everyone wishing to rouse the people to action has recognized that it may take a catalyzing event

Nowhere in his post did I construe him as recommending that one be engineered for that purpose. Hell, I didn't think even PNAC would go that far until Sept. 12. I did see some clumsy language in the OP that has given people a convenient handle for that interpretation, though.

I suspect Warren Stupidity is learning a hard lesson about public speaking, and that his next utterance will be more carefully worded.

[mondo joe]

181. What a gross aanti-democratic notion.

Right - everyone who wishes to TURN the people to something they don't feel knows it will take a catalyzing event.

[Truth2Tell]

175. holy guacamole

can you make a single post - ever - without comparing another DUer to the neocons and/or PNAC? Sheesh.

[mondo joe]

180. More than "a single post". Many thousands. Do a search.

But in this case it's called for.

[Beerboy]

166. I don't think so. I'm not trying to attack the messenger so much

as the message. Think about the OP. Is that something you really want in your own and family's personal life? The instant financial evaporation of everything you guys have worked for?
Call me the crazy one if you want, but I'm so not down with economic collapse/worldwide depression. It's difficult to believe that the Democratic Party in the main, or even the most jaded on the Left would seriously advocate such nonsense.
Again, I'm not trying to impugn the messenger so much as I want to try to ridicule the message. I just don't think championing economic collapse is the way to get more votes for Democrats in Minnesota.

[Beerboy]

170. I'm a total n00b,

yet I'm the one that single-handedly purged DU of it's erstwhile industriousness.
I think I should bail.

[GliderGuider]

171. How do you get that from the comment?

He just said this type of damaging post was common these days, and that yours was a representative of that type. Don't try to take credit for something so many others have worked long and hard to accomplish, that's just not polite.

[Beerboy]

172. Well, I think it'll be all right.

The vast majority of Americans probably aren't in favor of an economic collapse, just sayin. Peace!

[Beerboy]

173. I read the OP again, and it's even more cynical

and self-destructive than the first time I read it.
Seriously people, advocating ridiculous bullshit like wanting economic collapse isn't the way to win votes. It should be patently obvious, but then I never expected people to agree with the OP.
Live and learn.
Some people stay awake nights drooling for America's economic collapse? Yeah, that's what Minnesota Democrats should do, preach 'Vote for us, and we'll make you bankrupt!' This is some of the most self-defeating stuff I've read lately.

[EFerrari]

177. Then, I'd suggest reading the OP again. n/t

[EFerrari]

178. I have half a thought here.

We need to continue to allow illegal immigration because our neighbors to the South KNOW HOW to take to the streets.

Wouldn't it be ironic.

[Virginia Dare]

185. Precisely why they are constructing the concentration camps in Texas..

edited to add more:

I'm shocked that more people on this board don't see the coming social crisis here. It isn't the middle class white americans who are going to rise up against this government, and they already know that and are prepared. I laugh out loud when people here suggest that these prisons they are constructing down there are for left wing bloggers. Can't see the forest for the trees?

[Adsos Letter]

179. I claim no special insight...(just more questions)...

...but the problem I see in this discussion is that the coming financial collapse (or any other "system-wide catastrophe") does not necessarily mean an advance to something better. Others have stated this in the thread already.

The institutions of government can be used to "guide" the "awakened masses" in any number of directions; how do we know what direction the government might choose to lead us in? Who would be the scapegoats, what would be the solution? Which "values" would be uplifted and which denigrated, rolled into the "bundle" defined as "the problem"?

Hitler and Mussolini have been mentioned several times in this debate, so has FDR. You could add Nicholas II, and the collapse of Imperial Russia towards the end of WWI to the mix. All of them dealt with national cultures whose essential "character" varied, but only the United States had a long enough history of anti-authoritarian values to get us through the Great Depression without surrendering to dictatorship; and even then it was a close thing. Father Coughlin, the Silver Shirts, the Klan (and later, the likes of George Wallace) have demonstrated that the U.S. is not immune from demagoguery or appeals to fascistic impulses.

Look at where we are today; the Religious Right blaming societal ills on the "Godless", the massive funding of "Faith-Based" institutions, the "evangelization" of the military and government. We have come much, much further down the road to authoritarianism since the times of FDR and the general populace seems much more inclined to accept it, if not embrace it. And there are plenty who willingly embrace it.

In a time of collapse, with funds to regular social services having been curtailed, or axed completely, and a massive, and growing, influx of finances into "Faith-Based" operations and an increasing reliance on those institutions to provide social support (after all, churches are already "in that business and the most efficient at it" right?), what form is government "relief" likely to take? And what price will be exacted? And who will the scapegoats be?

The possible answers to those questions make me much less optimistic regarding the outcome of a generalized disaster.

[Marrah_G]

186. Not sure how much time I would have to march on Washington

I'd be to busy foraging for food to feed the kids and wouldn't exactly have travel money.

On a more serious note: I do understand what you are saying but it still makes me sick to think about especially since I am a single mother who would probably end up jobless and homeless. Hopefully we can find some other way.

[coalition_unwilling]

188. In other words, Republicans are PIGS and Democrats are SELL-OUTS -n/t

[Rex]

189. Not need, it will happen and pretty soon if Bush doesn't start funding

our national infrastructure! We've already seen the results over the years and it will only get worse as neglect runs rampant down to the smallest city.

We don't need it, it will happen on it's own and soon. Bush will see to it. That is part of the plan to privatize everything.