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Yukari Yakumo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 02:22 PM
Original message
Kucinich is unelectible because of the facts
Edited on Wed Aug-08-07 02:25 PM by Aya Reiko
I'll let the KOS do most of the talking...

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/2/23/113236/176

1. Kucinich has never proven broad electoral viability. How many presidents have been elected straight from the House of Representatives? Kucinich could gain respect by running and winning in something a little more competitive than an urban 58 percent Kerry district.


Regardless of which poll is used, Kucinich has never cracked more than 3% of the vote, and the earliest polls was all the way back in January. Richardson, Biden, and Edwards all at least have (or had) a significant presence in their own respective home states.

2. Did you know that Kucinich was once ardently anti-choice and anti-stem cell research? From a 2002 Nation article:

One thing you won't find on Kucinich's website, though, is any mention of his opposition to abortion rights. In his two terms in Congress, he has quietly amassed an anti-choice voting record of Henry Hyde-like proportions. He supported Bush's reinstatement of the gag rule for recipients of US family planning funds abroad. He supported the Child Custody Protection Act, which prohibits anyone but a parent from taking a teenage girl across state lines for an abortion. He voted for the Unborn Victims of Violence Act, which makes it a crime, distinct from assault on a pregnant woman, to cause the injury or death of a fetus. He voted against funding research on RU-486. He voted for a ban on dilation and extraction (so-called partial-birth) abortions without a maternal health exception. He even voted against contraception coverage in health insurance plans for federal workers--a huge work force of some 2.6 million people (and yes, for many of them, Viagra is covered). Where reasonable constitutional objections could be raised--the lack of a health exception in partial-birth bans clearly violates Roe v. Wade, as the Supreme Court ruled in Stenberg v. Carhart--Kucinich did not raise them; where competing principles could be invoked--freedom of speech for foreign health organizations--he did not bring them up. He was a co-sponsor of the House bill outlawing all forms of human cloning, even for research purposes, and he opposes embryonic stem cell research. His anti-choice dedication has earned him a 95 percent position rating from the National Right to Life Committee, versus 10 percent from Planned Parenthood and 0 percent from NARAL.

His transformation to being pro-choice happened literally overnight -- a week after he announced his 2004 presidential bid. One moment he was virulently anti choice, the next he was a staunch defender.


An opportunistic flip-flopper. Can we really trust him with the right to choose and stem-cell research, among other things.

3. "Department of Peace" (http://kucinich.us/issues/departmentpeace.php)?
We can conceive of peace as not simply the absence of violence but the presence of the capacity for a higher evolution of human awareness, of respect, trust, and integrity. We can conceive of peace as a tool to tap the infinite capabilities of humanity to transform consciousness and conditions that impel or compel violence at a personal, group, or national level toward creating understanding, compassion, and love. We can bring forth new understandings where peace, not war, becomes inevitable. We can move from wars to end all wars to peace to end all wars.

Citizens across the United States are now uniting in a great cause to establish a Department of Peace, seeking nothing less than the transformation of our society, to make nonviolence an organizing principle, to make war archaic through creating a paradigm shift in our culture for human development for economic and political justice and for violence control.


"Higher evolution of human awareness"? "Transform consciousness"? "Paradign shift"? What the hell is this crap? I expect this kind of crap out of Deepak Chopra (or Tom Cruise), not a serious presidential candidate.

And by the way, the "Department of Peace" already exists. It's called the "U.S. Department of State".

If he ever began to make serious headway in the polls, he would get totally eviscerated by crap like this. In the mind of the average John and Jane American, just how far will the "Dept. of Peace" will ever fly? They'd take on look at that and laugh their asses off. And then vote for the other guy.

4. The stuff above isn't even the worst -- check out this stuff from Kucinich's keynote address to something called the "Dubrovnik Conference on the Alchemy of Peacebuilding":
Spirit merges with matter to sanctify the universe. Matter transcends to return to spirit. The interchangeability of matter and spirit means the starlit magic of the outermost life of our universe becomes the soul-light magic of the innermost life of our self. The energy of the stars becomes us. We become the energy of the stars. Stardust and spirit unite and we begin: One with the universe. Whole and holy. From one source, endless creative energy, bursting forth, kinetic, elemental. We, the earth, air, water and fire-source of nearly fifteen billion years of cosmic spiraling.

Clearly, Kucinich resides in a higher plane of existence than I do. But my plane is on the planet earth. I want my president to reside here as well.

See my point above. John and Jane Average American will find out about this, and will laugh their asses off. And then vote for the other guy.

5. The 1999 book The American Mayor by Melvin G. Holli, ranked Kucinich the 7th worst mayor in the nation:
Only thirty-one years old when elected, Cleveland's "boy mayor" had failings that were not the sins of venality or graft for personal gain, but rather matters of style, temperament, and bad judgment in office. Kucinich earned seventh place the hard way: by his abrasive, intemperate, and chaotic administration. He barely survived a recall vote just ten months in office, then disappeared for five weeks, reportedly recuperating from an ulcer. When he got back into the political fray, his demagogic rhetoric and slash-and-burn political style got him into serious trouble when he stubbornly refused to compromise and led Cleveland into financial default in late 1978 - the first major city to default since the Great Depression. That led also to Kucinich's defeat and exit from executive office. Out of office, he dabbled in a Hollywoodesque spirit world and once believed that he had met Shirley MacLaine in a previous life, seemingly confirming his critics' charges that he was a "nutcake." After that, he experienced downward mobility, losing races for several other offices and finally ending up with a council seat; but more recently, he climbed back up to a seat in Congress. Bad judgment, demagoguery, and default also spelled political failure in the eyes of twenty-five of our experts, who ranked Dennis, whom the press called "Dennis the Menace", as seventh-worst.

This survey spanned mayors in the United States between 1820 and 1993. Notching the "7th Worst" slot was a serious accomplishment.

So basically Dennis would govern like a stupid stubborn blockhead with a loose grasp on reality, who takes lengthy vacations, and ultimately bankrupted the place he was governing. Sounds familiar, doesn't it?
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bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 02:25 PM
Response to Original message
1. I'd like to see him run against Voinovich in 2010
I like the guy, but he is unquestionably the wrong person for the Democratic nomination. I'm interested in electing a Democratic president, not an idealistic crusade. I'll even admit that he won the debate last night, but when I see Kucinich, I suddenly have nightmares about McGovern, Mondale and Dukakis.
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rjones2818 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #1
24. As opposed to nightmares about
Nixon, Reagan and Bush I?

:crazy:
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Fresh_Start Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 02:25 PM
Response to Original message
2. I knew about the mayoral personality issues
I was also completely turned off earlier this year when I first went to his website and saw pages on his girls talking about how astrology sets the course of their lives.


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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #2
12. Hmmm
Thanks for this information. Everyone on the Astrology Board here will be interested.
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Fresh_Start Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #12
44. They've removed it from the website now
but it was there the first time I visited the website
from my point of view how can you take someone seriously if their website for presidential campaign has astrology on it

from your point of view how can you take someone seriously who sweeps their belief under the rug in fear of criticism
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New Era Donating Member (62 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #44
75. As serriously as you can take
someone talking about an omniscient being floating in the sky dictating the coarse of world events... In other words, all the other candidates. Just because its not terribly popular doesn't make it any crazier than the rest of mythology.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #2
14. His girls?
Who's that now?
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Fresh_Start Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. It had his wife and a mother (i'm not sure if it was his or hers)
I think there were also supporter "Girls"

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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Nice terminology you chose there. n/t
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Fresh_Start Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #20
39. I'm a woman, I was offended by his website terminology
take it up with him....
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. Oops... hahaha
It's HIS terminology? You sure he said it and not some forum person?
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Fresh_Start Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #40
46. It was his website.
anything on his website is his responsibility

it wasn't a blog
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #46
49. LOL
Yeah... I agree that eventually the responsibility lands with him... did you perhaps contact his office to complain? Or do you expect him to put aside his habit of being one of the PRECIOUS FEW legislators who actually READ bills so that he can micro-manage a website?

:rofl:
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Fresh_Start Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #49
51. I expect him to hire competent people
instead of flakes.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #51
53. Tell me... how important is Edwards' hairdo to you?
Since you're all about the very serious issues and all...
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Fresh_Start Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #53
67. don't care about haircut
care about a president who's going to use astrology as a policy tool
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #67
69. That's worse than anyone else's "faith"?
I'm pretty sure I've seen the others saying how much faith should play a part in blah blah blah

Don't see his statements as any different.
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Fresh_Start Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #69
73. I have problems with someone using his discussions
with a higher being as a policy as well whether the 'higher being' is the stars, god, jar of peanut butter, fortune cookie or whatever

I'm rather craving a fact-based, reality-based policy for a change.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #73
78. Which other candidate disavows their "faith"?
:shrug:


You honestly think DK's policy ideas are the LEAST fact-based?

Tell me whose are better. The rest all favor for-profit insurance, by the way... just thought I'd point that out, consdiering it's an ACTUAL issue and all.
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Fresh_Start Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #78
82. You're saying that Astrology is his faith now?
I was assuming it was merely bad judgment instead of irrational behaviour
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #82
87. Why would you think I had any insight?
Does it matter what someone on here claims some candidate's beliefs are?

I can't believe I'm even having this fucking ridiculous-ass "conversation".
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Fresh_Start Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #87
89. No, I don't believe you have an insight
nonetheless you were quick to defend when you had no insight to speak of.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #89
92. LOL
Yeah, but no.

Not defend... compare.
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Fresh_Start Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #92
98. Some thread on DU was talking about him as a candidate
it was the first time I really heard about him so I checked out his website.

I wouldn't hire someone who talked about how astrology made them a good candidate during a job interview.
I thought it was inappropriate for a presidential candidate.
I thought it was mostly 'indulging Elizabeth'...but even that struck me as a bad note. Since I don't want someone with paternalistic tendencies to indulge women. I want someone who treats women as equals

I'm not going to argue whether astrology was more or less believable than religion.

I'll support him if he wins the general but he's barely above Gravel in my estimation though for completely different reasons.


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goodhue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #98
129. "first time I really heard about him"
That says it all.
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superkia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #2
76. As long as he doesnt force astrology down my throat, I dont care.
The current trend by just about all politicians is to shove Christianity down the countries throat as well as the world.
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Fresh_Start Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #76
86. That would be bad but so would policy making based
on astrology readings.

Again, I don't know if was him or indulging Elizabeth...but it wasn't what I wanted to see on a Presidential candidates website.
It is gone now as are some of the other weird pages.
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superkia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #86
96. I didn't see it but if it were that bad, I wouldnt like it either.
I don't know allot about him, I only know what I have seen of late. Since being elected to the U.S. House of Representatives in 1996, has he been pushing astrology or any of its practices into his political practices or into government or is it something he does personally or what? I was doing searches trying to see if the astrology was a part of his politics and couldn't really find anything significant. I don't mean what he believes in but if the astrology told him to vote for war or a certain bill or something like the bushman and his god made me do it stuff? I appreciate the knowledge, it helps me with my upcoming decision. Thanks.
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Fresh_Start Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #96
100. It wasn't part of his policy statement
it was part of the personal side of the candidate and his wife pages on the website.
So I'd assumed it was 'indulging' his wife's passions. But it bothered me nonetheless
that he would have it on his website for his candidacy.



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superkia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #100
101. Thanks! Maybe it will come up later in the campaign?
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sniffa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 02:26 PM
Response to Original message
3. teLL us who to vote for then
can't pick ourseLves.
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bryant69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 02:28 PM
Response to Original message
4. Also he's a vegan
And Edwards cares too much for his hair
And Hillary had Vince Foster Rubbed out
And Obama was educated at a Madras

Or, to put it another way, if we wait around for a candidate the right wing won't find ridiculous and paint as awful, we will have a long depressing wait.

That said, the bit about his position on Choice is worth remembering

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #4
58. my research shows that he did not change much on that issue
see my post below.
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 02:30 PM
Response to Original message
5. Let's go back in time
1. Lincoln is unelectable because the only national office he ever held was a Congressional seat in a district that has voted conservative since it was created. His anti-Mexican War stance cost him his seat and his impassioned speeches from that time will come back to haunt him.

2. Did you know that Lincoln changed his position on slavery during the debates with Douglas, depending on where he was speaking? (I'm at work or I'd research and get quotes)

3. What's with this Homestead Act? And Land Grant colleges? Sounds crazy to me, because no one ever did that before.

4. Check out the Cooper Union speech of Lincoln--isn't it crazy to interpret the Consitution to say that states do not have sovereign rights?

5. Lincoln was considered one of the worst Illinois legislators because as a member of the Long Nine he helped pass a series of projects for internal improvements that drained the state's treasury.


Yeah, and Lincoln looked funny too-ugly and ungainly. We can't have someone like that be President.
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Sherman A1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #5
11. Agreed
:toast: I will take my chances with DK any time.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #5
21. Brilliant post!
:D
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Speck Tater Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #5
71. The country didn't have TV back then. (nt)
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 02:31 PM
Response to Original message
6. The fact that Kos is screwed up about Dennis' actions as mayor says volumes.
Edited on Wed Aug-08-07 02:31 PM by redqueen
I don't take advice from people who clearly haven't done enough thinking on the subject.

Thanks for the useless negative bullshit, though, just the same. :hi:
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sniffa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. he did good Last night
very aparent now. :hi:
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. Hehehe... well enough to warrant dragging out this tired crap.
:hi:
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TZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #6
17. I have DEMOCRATIC relatives in Ohio
And he's not even the most popular democrat in that state. Sherrod Brown is. Also George Voinovich, a Republican is more popular than Kucinich in the majority of the state. Outside of Cleveland, he is NOT well thought of. I have never heard of anyone winning the Presidency without carrying their own state--and REMEMBER Jerry Springer has held office in Ohio (mayor of Cincinnati), so its not like liberals can't hold office there. Thats the points you should take away on this man. We don't need someone else like Ronald Reagan using astrology to make policy...
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. You and your relatives are entitled to your opinion.
:hi:
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charlie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #17
25. Hmm, astrology
or any of the others communing with a dead guy who walked on water 2000 years ago... not much of a choice for an atheist. I'll be with Kucinich again, for as far as he can go in the race.
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peace13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #17
65. I call your bull on George Voinovich.
He is no friend to America. By the way, I live in Ohio! We have suffered greatly form George and his rethuglican friends.
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JANdad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 02:33 PM
Response to Original message
8. Don't forget
that he also pulled a "Lieberman" and switched party affiliation TWICE to indepentendt after losing in primaries...
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 02:34 PM
Response to Original message
9. In my, and many other's opinion, Kucinich is right on the issues
Your criticisms of Kucinich are either laughable or sins which effect the rest of the candidates to an even greater degree. You complain about Dennis' "flip flop" on abortion, well, let's start delving in Hillary's changes of heart, from being a hawk to a sort-of dove, hell, from being a Republican to a Democrat, again, sort-of.

You think that people would find concepts like the Dept. of Peace laughable, well, that is your opinion. Many others that I've run across find the concept rather refreshing especially in light of the martial times that we're in.

You're simply drudging up old news and views to rehash. That's fine, but it's all been beaten to death long ago. And none of it mitigates the fact that the overwhelming majority of Dems, liberals and progressives agree with the vast majority of what Dennis has to say. In fact probably his biggest obstacle to getting electing are media mouthpieces constantly braying that Kucinich is unelectable. What a sad, sorrty, self fulfilling trap we fall into, shunning candidates whom we agree with with in favor of candidates whose positions we utterly oppose, all due to some media inspired concept called unelectability. Thus we continue to sell out our best interests to corporate controlled candidates all due to some media driven meme.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. Yeah...
I thought the 'flip flop' business was pretty funny, myself.

Um... hello? These *are* politicians, right? :rofl:


Maybe some of us LIKE being reamed by corporations. :shrug:
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #13
63. I used to like it
but I've flip-flopped on that now.

I wanted Kerry to embrace the 'flip-flop' label. It's better than being wrong, and staying wrong no matter how many facts come to light. "Live and don't learn" is the Bush motto because it keeps them from flip-flopping.
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #9
22. And he has guts to put himself and the issues out there
Making himself a target with no chance of victory. It's an important job and takes a courageous person to do it, because it's all body blows.
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Individualist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #9
136. He gets my vote
DK all the way!
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peace13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 02:36 PM
Response to Original message
15. In case you have never heard Kucinich you should know
Edited on Wed Aug-08-07 02:40 PM by peace13
that the 'Department of Peace' is for the violence that we inflict upon ourselves here in the good ol' US of A. Areas such as child abuse, violence in families, crime and the like. Why don't you educate yourself before spewing?
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Yukari Yakumo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #15
23. Don't we have agencies that deal with that already?
Edited on Wed Aug-08-07 02:45 PM by Aya Reiko
Do we really need even more red tape?
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peace13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #23
62. When Homeland Security was formed the benchmark for red
tape was raised to infinity.
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goodhue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #23
66. The purpose is to create nonviolent solutions to domestic and international conflict.
Obviously, peace work can be and in some cases already is a party of existing agencies. When such efforts are placed under one umbrella, however – such as in the establishment of our Department of Homeland Security – then they attain a higher level of synergy, effective co-ordination and influence upon the thinking of American citizens.

The establishment of the Environmental Protection Agency by Richard Nixon did not begin our commitment to the environment, yet it raised it to a much higher level of national priority. And so should it be with the interests of peace.
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #23
97. Oops!
you just proved how little you really know about this issue.
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rjones2818 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #15
31. If you do some googling from the last couple of days
you'll find out the department of peace idea in some form has been around since Washington.

Some of the Founder's must not have realized that State is actually that...
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mikelgb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #15
56. didn't you hear?
that is what Condoleeza Rice is for...

:rofl:
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-09-07 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #56
152. That people around here are actually essentially SAYING that...
that's just sad! And kinda scary!

But you're right... mostly :rofl:
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endarkenment Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 02:38 PM
Response to Original message
16. Meanwhile...
On every issue I care about Dennis holds positions I support. Now. Not six years ago. I would like to vote for somebody I actually support instead of against somebody I dislike worse than the alternative.
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Yukari Yakumo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 02:51 PM
Response to Original message
26. Funny how some of you say flip-flopping is not a big deal.
Edited on Wed Aug-08-07 02:51 PM by Aya Reiko
I take that you'll all shut up on the Iraq War Authorization vote then?
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. No, many of us are saying that all politicians "flip flop"
And do so on important issues, like the IWR.

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ccpup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. great point
of course, selective memory paired with selective outrage is a staple here on DU.
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Virginia Dare Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #29
33. Ain't that the truth...n/t
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #26
38. Let this be a lesson for ALL politicians we write letters to: NEVER LISTEN AND CHANGE!
After all, if you listen to the letters we write and the calls we make and then change your position we'll call you an "opportunistic flip-flopper"!!

Yes ... this is truly a service to our democracy. Never allow them to change their positions!

Never!

So... you respect the arguments made by the Swiftboat Veterans, huh?
Appalling bullshit!

:puke: :puke:



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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #38
41. ...
:yourock:
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charlie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #38
57. Hey, one good thing
Aya Reiko gets to handle point for the anti-Clinton, anti-Edwards campaigns around here, since our indifference to flip-floppery is giving him the vapors. Rigorous consistency is an important virtue, so his Johnny-and-Hillary-Suck threads oughta be showing up pretty soon. Less work for me.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #57
64. "How can they say they love America but hate Americans?"
(Good line from "The American President") I sorta have to wonder the same thing. :eyes:

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charlie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #64
72. Har!
Dang, that's a line from a movie? I've long said that about wingers -- they loooove America, they just hate most everyone in it.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #72
84. Yep. I paraphrased the quote ... but it's a must-see movie for poltical junkies.
Edited on Wed Aug-08-07 04:05 PM by TahitiNut
Sydney Ellen Wade: "How do you have patience for people who claim they love America, but clearly can't stand Americans?"

It also has one of the most rousing Press statements you'll ever hear...
President Andrew Shepherd: "For the last couple of months, Senator Rumson has suggested that being president of this country was, to a certain extent, about character, and although I have not been willing to engage in his attacks on me, I've been here three years and three days, and I can tell you without hesitation: Being President of this country is entirely about character.

"For the record: yes, I am a card-carrying member of the ACLU. But the more important question is why aren't you, Bob? Now, this is an organization whose sole purpose is to defend the Bill of Rights, so it naturally begs the question: Why would a senator, his party's most powerful spokesman and a candidate for President, choose to reject upholding the Constitution? If you can answer that question, folks, then you're smarter than I am, because I didn't understand it until a few hours ago.

"America isn't easy. America is advanced citizenship. You gotta want it bad, 'cause it's gonna put up a fight. It's gonna say "You want free speech? Let's see you acknowledge a man whose words make your blood boil, who's standing center stage and advocating at the top of his lungs that which you would spend a lifetime opposing at the top of yours. You want to claim this land as the land of the free? Then the symbol of your country can't just be a flag; the symbol also has to be one of its citizens exercising his right to burn that flag in protest. Show me that, defend that, celebrate that in your classrooms. Then, you can stand up and sing about the "land of the free". I've known Bob Rumson for years, and I've been operating under the assumption that the reason Bob devotes so much time and energy to shouting at the rain was that he simply didn't get it. Well, I was wrong. Bob's problem isn't that he doesn't get it. Bob's problem is that he can't sell it!

"We have serious problems to solve, and we need serious people to solve them. And whatever your particular problem is, I promise you, Bob Rumson is not the least bit interested in solving it. He is interested in two things and two things only: making you afraid of it and telling you who's to blame for it.

"That, ladies and gentlemen, is how you win elections. You gather a group of middle-aged, middle-class, middle-income voters who remember with longing an easier time, and you talk to them about family and American values and character. And wave an old photo of the President's girlfriend and you scream about patriotism and you tell them, she's to blame for their lot in life, and you go on television and you call her a whore.

"Sydney Ellen Wade has done nothing to you, Bob. She has done nothing but put herself through school, represent the interests of public school teachers, and lobby for the safety of our natural resources. You want a character debate, Bob? You better stick with me, 'cause Sydney Ellen Wade is way out of your league.
"

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0112346/quotes
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charlie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #84
91. Aw, maaaan
Look at that. It's like it was written for a certain hew-to-the-middle weenie who spent a whole summer as Poppy's punching bag.
For the record: yes, I am a card-carrying member of the ACLU. But the more important question is why aren't you, Bob?...

You want to claim this land as the land of the free? Then the symbol of your country can't just be a flag; the symbol also has to be one of its citizens exercising his right to burn that flag in protest...

He is interested in two things and two things only: making you afraid of it and telling you who's to blame for it...
It really bums me out to see stuff like this. With just a smidge of grit and fire in his campaign, President Dukakis could've ended the Bush dynasty before it began. It could've been sooo easy.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #91
95. He needed Aaron Sorkin as a speech-writer ... and the guts to deliver it.
I sure liked Dukakis, though. (I detested Poppy Bush.)
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charlie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #95
105. I liked Dukakis okay too
But Gawd, that man exasperated the living daylights out of me, standing around looking mildly annoyed as Bush whumped him with an insipid one-note tactic -- just standing on his side going LIBERALLIBERALLIBERAL!!!

And while I'm reliving horrors past, I remember the selection of Dukakis was widely hailed as "the Democrats finally doing it right", picking a non-ideological policy wonk. Carter got the same treatment, being a conservative and not a moondust hippie type. Now, to hear everyone tell it, the two of them were foisted up by the Weather Underground faction of the party.

Rightward drift, what rightward drift? The center's always been 20 yards from the Republican end zone :crazy:
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HCE SuiGeneris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-09-07 01:54 AM
Response to Reply #26
141. Who is it you support... and why?
If you are going to tear down a Democratic candidate, don't you think a replacement should be proffered?
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rjones2818 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 02:55 PM
Response to Original message
28. Let's be honest,
Markos would have sold the power company. Hillary would have sold the power company. Obama would have sold. John would have sold. Joe would have sold. Chris would have sold. Bill would have sold. Mike probably would have. Only Dennis wouldn't, and only Dennis didn't.

Just on that I'd support him over any other candidate for president this cycle!
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #28
42. Damn right!
Welcome to DU!

:hi:
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nosmokes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 02:56 PM
Response to Original message
30. HEY! you din't mention he was short either. Randy Newman was all over
short people thing... FWIW,DK has one hella message. The only reason he's unelectable is because he scares the shit out of the power structure. If the so called leaders would actually lead and show some backbone then his ideas would be as electable as anyone else's. but since fearfull leaders seem to be the only thing the Democratic Party has in ample supply Mr Kucinich is treated like a pet or the mentally ill brother. He's included, but kept in the back and not allowed to say much and everyone hopes he's not seen or noticed too much.
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 03:00 PM
Response to Original message
32. You were the first to call Sheehan an "ATTENTION WHORE": Who DO you like?
Is your purpose at DU just to denigrate popular figures, or is there a Democratic candidate that you would care to promote?
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charlie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. Lol
I was gonna say... Sheehan's an attention whore, Kucinich is George Bush. The guy's certainly one for hyperbolic derision.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #32
45. Oh REEEEEEEEEally?
:think:
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #45
48. Oh, yes indeedy!
Edited on Wed Aug-08-07 03:18 PM by Bluebear
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #32
77. Who knows? Yes. Nope.
In that order.



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w13rd0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 03:03 PM
Response to Original message
35. I think the fact that we have long posts...
...like this that could be considered anti-Kucinich is proof that last nights performance broke him into the "second tier"...lol...

There are reasons he is not the candidate I am electing to support, but I for one am glad he's in the race, and will most likely stay in until the convention regardless the way the tide moves...
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Lerkfish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #35
55. yup
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dkofos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 03:04 PM
Response to Original message
36. The only fact that makes DK unelectable is that people are stupid and
don't vote in their own best interests.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #36
47. ...
:thumbsup:
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Annces Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #36
108. I agree
Edited on Wed Aug-08-07 05:09 PM by Annces
I so wish we could have a president who is a real person too.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-09-07 01:43 AM
Response to Reply #36
139. Not stupid. Just not paying attention. n/t
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 03:05 PM
Response to Original message
37. Minshutou no saha no warukuchi bakari yuute iru n ja nai?
Mattaku mou...
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The Witch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #37
103. atashitachi dake ga sono kotoba wakaru deshou
OP ga wakaranai hazu darou.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #103
120. Sono namae kara handan shite ita n da kedo,
nakanaka kotaete kurenai kara, kitto handoru neemu deshou ne.
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Madspirit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 03:15 PM
Response to Original message
43. YAWN
Wake me when all the "Kucinich is unelectable" threads disappear.

He's not unelectable if we vote for him.

Lee
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goodhue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 03:18 PM
Response to Original message
50. Regarding the Department of Peace


Twenty-one city councils from Chicago, IL, to Atlanta, GA, plus two county boards of supervisors and one tribal council have passed resolutions endorsing the legislation. Some of the largest and smallest cities in the nation are endorsing, representing populations totaling over 7.4 million people.

The map and numbers do not yet reflect that the Providence, Rhode Island, City Council on July 17, 2007, unanimously passed a resolution in support of HR808, the federal legislation before the House of Representatives to establish a United States Department of Peace and Nonviolence.
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FloridaJudy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #50
85. Woo Hoo! All four of my "home towns" are on that map!
Berkeley, San Francisco and Santa Cruz California - where I grew up and went to school, and where my family still lives. And Gainesville Florida where I've lived for the past 30 years.

Damn. I must be doing something right.
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 03:21 PM
Response to Original message
52. interesting and sad, but they all seem to be personal attacks
What about policies? For example, didn't DK lead the House Democrats against the IWR?

#1 - a pragmatic consideration, the 'he cannot win' argument.
#2 - Not my issue, and it is talking about the past. Actually he does not seem to have really 'flipped' either.

http://www2.kucinich.us/issues/rightsreproductive.php

"The fact is that most Americans, including myself, are uncomfortable with abortions and feel there are too many of them. At the same time, the vast majority of Americans recognize that there are circumstances in which a woman and her doctor should be allowed to make this most difficult decision without government intervention. To return to the days when woman could self-abort without penalty, but to imprison doctors who would help them, seems senseless, especially recognizing that a new abortion law would likely become known as "The Abortions for the Rich-Only Bill."

I have a plan to reduce abortions by encouraging family planning, including abstinance training, combined with a full economic and health care plan that would clearly alleviate the number of abortions. Voters have a choice: Choose Republican rhetoric that will never allow the issue to come to a vote or a real plan to reduce the number of abortions with a program of economic justice."

That does not make him sound as ardently pro choice as much of DU.

3. Paradigm shift? Well, I think we could use one, but this seems to be a fault-finding tack. There are plenty of statements from Hillary or Obama that I would not like. Should we dig them out and pretend that outweighs any other message of their campaign?

4. None of our candidates are going to be attack proof. Even if they never say anything goofy, what they said will be spun as if it's goofy or crap will just be made up. This was certainly done with Gore and Kerry our last candidate actually said 'even if I knew then what I know now, I would still have voted for the IWR' :banghead: That's a little bit worse than what Kucinich said, and DK apparently did know then what we all know now that the IWR was a bad idea.

5. Well that was almost 20 years ago when he was Mayor. It also sounds like he did not get much of a chance - faced a recall election within ten months, then had health issues. It's probably hard to be an effective mayor when the corporate forces are working to undermine you. I'd like far more details on that.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #52
54. He's short!
He doesn't get in line and suck up to people in one of the "mainstream" religions!

He talks funny!

It's like fucking grade school. :eyes:
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goodhue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 03:26 PM
Response to Original message
59. Did you mean unelectable?
Unelectible is not a word. And that is a fact.
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mikelgb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 03:28 PM
Response to Original message
60. I love this thread n/t
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DJKDJKDJK Donating Member (101 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 03:28 PM
Response to Original message
61. The facts, the truth, are exactly why he will be president.
How many believers are there today. Absolutely. There are many. Kucinich will win...
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Bake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #61
80. And you're part of the "reality-based community"?
I want some of whatever it is that you're smoking.

Bake
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Speck Tater Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 03:38 PM
Response to Original message
68. America is ready for a woman or a black president, but not ready for a nerd.
The real problem is that he projects the high school nerd/geek image which doesn't inspire anybody to look up to him. Sad, but true. And there's no point is wishing it were otherwise.
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KaptBunnyPants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 03:39 PM
Response to Original message
70. Which candidate has not "flip flopped"?
Half the candidates voted for the war, none of them are running on it. Edwards, a man Kos apparently likes, has flip flopped his entire approach to government since 2004. That's not a good reason to base a choice on.

And since when are we being so judgemental about people's religions? Christians are the last people who should throw stones at people for believing in stupid things. Your pacifist Christ with his magical powers wouldn't raise a fist to save his life, and you want to judge other people for what they believe in?
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 03:42 PM
Response to Original message
74. "What the hell is this crap?"
back at ya!
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goodgd_yall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 03:51 PM
Response to Original message
79. The Department of Peace is a great idea; demagoguery...mmmm
Point 1: Non-issue, IMO
Point 2: I have no problem with a candidate changing stances. I've never approved of the charge of "flip-flopping," no matter who the candidate (even a Repug like Romney) because people do change their views over time. I think it's healthy (unless it moves from liberal to conservative :puke: )
Point 3: See subject line.
Point 4: God forbid a candidate doesn't express anything other than in judeo-christian terms. Ok, this could be a big source of ridicule, I admit. When was this conference?
Point 5: I think using the term "demagoguery" in describing Kucinich's mayoral term is off-base. Uncompromising is a more accurate term. I would be interested in hearing more about his mayoral stint. It's the only point above that I think warrants any concern.
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progressoid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 03:56 PM
Response to Original message
81. ...
Seems to me, his stint as Mayor has been redeemed. But his woo woo spirit and stardust stuff will sink him like a rock. Hannity, Beck et. al. would crucify him with it. They would roast him like a pig. They would fillet him to the bone. etc.

America is trying to pretend that a Mormon might be able to be president. They idea makes them cringe, but they endure it. Hippy-dippy New Age fluff however, is fair game.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #81
88. nevermind...
Edited on Wed Aug-08-07 04:18 PM by redqueen
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-09-07 01:51 AM
Response to Reply #81
140. Carl Sagan is woo-woo?
He sez we're made of star stuff.
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progressoid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-09-07 07:54 AM
Response to Reply #140
147. Sure...
if Carl also had begun consorting with people from the Maharishi Institute and the Natural Law Party.
And had chosen his best friend and kindred spirit, Shirley MacLaine, to be the Godmother to his daughter.
And had decided that "chemtrails" were a threat and needed legislation to ban them.
And had abandoned the Scientific Method.
And

My point in the previous post was, the typical American isn't going to accept anything outside of some version of Judeo-Xian faith from their candidate. New Age nuttery works great for some, but unfortunately, most of America wants something a little more white bread and butter and little less whole grain and sprouts if you get my drift.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-09-07 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #147
154. Hardly anyone better than Kucinich on real bread and butter issues
--though Edwards is just about as good. That's why he keeps getting re-elected by his distinctly non-woo-woo constituency.
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 03:59 PM
Response to Original message
83. If People Here Are Enthusiastic About His Candidacy Here What's To Be Gained By Pissing On Their
Parade?
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #83
93. They can be in the Kool Kidz Klub!
You know, with the mainstream media.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 04:26 PM
Response to Original message
90. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #90
102. !
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #102
104. The only problem with them is you cut of the head and another grows in its place...
Got any fire or acid about? <---I'm SUCH a D&D freak. :)
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Zorra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 04:37 PM
Response to Original message
94. Looks like DK scared the shit out of the corporatists in the debate.
They're out in full force, spewing the same lame talking points and half-truths.

DK getting elected Prez is a fascist's worst nightmare.
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Individualist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #94
137. He certainly did
He's the pro-corporatist's worse nightmare.
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penguin7 Donating Member (962 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 04:48 PM
Response to Original message
99. This is a very shallow critique
Is this guy KOS that wrote this article in charge of the website where the convention just was?



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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #99
106. YUP!
Sad, isn't it?

*sigh*
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penguin7 Donating Member (962 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #106
110. Kos is clearly part of the problem not the solution
He should have left it at ugh is right, Not for Kucinich's sake but his own.

Does he smear all the candidates also? Or did he just pick Kucinich? If he is an equal opportunity smearer then maybe it is alright, otherwise how did an ass like this get such an influential website?
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #110
111. I don't think he smears the other candidates, no...
but seeing as how most of DK's policy positions are SO unbelievably superior, he felt he need to justify his dismissing DK's candidacy altogether. That's what his readers were treated to.
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charlie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #111
115. Kucinich is the only one
he likes to scorn with personal insults. Whatever. Like I'm going to be interested in the opinion of a guy who was dumb enough to remain a Republican throughout Reagan-Bush.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #115
116. OMG! HE WAS?!
:wow:
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charlie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #116
117. Clinton got his first Democratic vote
He was just a pup during most of Reagan, and I don't remember if he voted for Poppy. But yeah, being a Republican until Clinton is part of his bio. Sometimes I wonder if coming within a hair of getting his ass tossed into the middle of Gulf War I had much to do with his conversion.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #117
119. I was a pup during reagan...
I still saw through that BS, though.

Tragic that most didn't.
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charlie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #119
121. Maybe it was tragic that you did
If you were a Repub-turned-Dem, you'd get the fasttrack Prodigal Daughter treatment like Kos. Or if you were a Dem who voted Republican, you'd get the cute "Reagan Democrat" nickname and the DLC will move heaven and earth to woo you back, unlike those nasty Naderistas, whom we like to kick to the curb... and prop up and kick again... and again... and again.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #121
124. Not sure I get you...
I was born & raised with progressive (nearly socialist) values.

But any yahoo who read the papers knew about ketchup as a vegetable, tax cuts for the rich, his dementia, etc etc etc
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charlie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #124
130. I'm just being a cynic
I was making a dark joke about your fidelity to progressive values being a tragedy. It's always bugged me that erstwhile Dems who actually voted for Republicans get courted by the party, while Dems who stray to 3rd party progressive candidates get treated like crap for their "sins."
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #130
131. Ah... yes, well... I don't know if that makes you a cynic...
so much as a realist.

*sigh*
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charlie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-09-07 01:37 AM
Response to Reply #119
138. Well, whaddya know
Scotch what I said earlier. Markos voted for Bush in 1992, not Clinton.
Moulitsas voted for Bush Sr. in 1992. Three months later, he became a Democrat. “You know what it was?” he says. “It was that Clinton trooper story. ‘Troopergate.’ I thought it was so nasty, and the fact that there were so many real problems in the country and they were trying to make that stick.”

And he was quite the young Reaganite:
The family fled back to Chicago when Moulitsas was nine, and he became a fanatical supporter of Ronald Reagan (who backed El Salvador’s government as part of his anti-Communist strategy), even working as a Republican party precinct captain in high school.

http://www.guernicamag.com/features/172/firmly_forward/
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-09-07 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #138
151. UGH!
I guess it's great that he's no longer completely idiotic/insane, at least.
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Desertrose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 05:00 PM
Response to Original message
107. Clearly Dennis has got some folks worried.....hence all the old crap
So predictable....all the stuff that makes Dennis supposedly *unelectable*.

Heard this same bs 4 years ago and it was as outdated then as it is now....

DR
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kittykitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 05:10 PM
Response to Original message
109. What if he looked like (forgive me) Romney? Tall and nice looking?
Would the press give him any more credibility?
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #109
112. Not so long as he maintained his people first, corporations second attitude,
which if history is any guide, he never would, even if it makes him 'unelectable'.

:rofl:

Ironic, huh?
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kittykitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #112
113. Yes, I think you're right.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 05:20 PM
Response to Original message
114. He's a more intelligent choice than those that destroy
Edited on Wed Aug-08-07 05:21 PM by mmonk
our most precious document, the constitution, will support an immoral war by all means previously set by Americans and the international precedents and treaties, nor lie about these things. I'll take him above all the lying scum out there ignorant and uniformed people think are good people. And if anyone wants me to think about me giving my vote to your jolly candidate of the press, don't keep slamming Kucinich. I just may not vote in the general election except if DK is the nominee. I might just vote for democratic judges where I have the greatest chance of not being wrong about a politician's character.
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 05:37 PM
Response to Original message
118. You've already proven in that past that you're clueless.
Your last line completely cements that impression.
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spindoctor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 05:50 PM
Response to Original message
122. So how does this make him unelectable?
Edited on Wed Aug-08-07 05:54 PM by spindoctor
Q: Representatives don't become presidents?
A: Garfield did. Accidentally also from Ohio if I'm not mistaken. Anyway, if bad Austrian movie stars can become Governor then I say anything goes.

Q: Kucinich is an opportunistic flip-flopper?
A: No he isn't. So what if he changed his mind on abortion? Good for him, good for us.

Q: Is Kucinich a little of the grid on the spiritual side?
A: Yes. But not as bad as southern baptists or other electable people who proclaim that God speaks to them.

Q: Will John and Jane vote for the other guy because of that?
A: We don't know. John has never voted in his life and Jane is actually more interested in the issues than in personality.

Q: Was Kucinich a bad mayor?
A: I don't know which 25 experts Mr. Holli consulted but in retrospective it was Kucinich's stubborn integrity that saved Cleveland from the jaws of an Enron-like operation. Bankrupting the city was actually a wise move for which no other would have had the guts.

Btw, lengthy vacations are very presidential. Regardless, from where the insinuation that Kooch was NOT recovering from an ulcer?

Contradiction: His demagogic rhetoric <-> Dubrovnik KNS

On one thing we can all agree. He is definitely different then the rest. Ask yourself if that is a bad thing.

Accidentally, the only republican who I can stomach scores about the same in the polls as Dennis. Coincidence?

On edit, one more thing...

If this is ALL this guy can find on Kooch, then this is almost a compliment. I am sure that on any of the other candidates you can write a book with real issues.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-09-07 02:03 AM
Response to Reply #122
142. Kucinich did NOT bankrupt the city! Jeebus!
When he refused to sell public power to the banks, the banks wouldn't roll over the city's loans, so the city defaulted. This is NOT the same thing as bankruptcy. Kucinich continued to keep Cleveland solvent and ran it on a CASH ONLY basis from then on, because the city couldn't get more loans. Cleveland's credit rating was just fine--the banks refused loans simply as a blackmail tactic, not for any reason of traditional financial prudence.

Kucinich owes the revival of his political career to the fact that his former constituents realized that he was right. He ran on this slogan, in fact.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0102-04.htm

His big break came in 1993. A reporter for The Cleveland Plain Dealer was investigating Mr. Kucinich's decision not to sell Muny Light, and concluded that the move benefited consumers. Mr. Kucinich was "on a beach in Malibu, watching the dolphins play," he said, when the reporter called for his comment.

With a light bulb as his logo and the slogan "Because he was right," Mr. Kucinich won election to the Ohio Senate in 1994, and the United States House in 1996.

After 15 years in the political wilderness, the boy mayor — calmer, less impetuous, as determined as ever — was back.

On Feb. 17, 2002, Representative Dennis J. Kucinich, Democrat of Ohio, was a featured speaker at a conference sponsored by the Southern California Americans for Democratic Action. As co-chairman of the Congressional Progressive Caucus, Mr. Kucinich had made a name for himself as an outspoken foe of what he sees as the Bush administration's bellicose foreign policy.

One thousand people packed a hall at the University of Southern California to hear him attack the war in Afghanistan and the buildup to war in Iraq, the primary antiterrorism legislation and the treatment of detainees at Guantánamo Bay.

The "prayer for America" speech, as Mr. Kucinich called it, was, like many of his speeches, long on passion and short on policy specifics. But to people in the hall, it was electrifying.

"It was like someone singing opera," said Judith Bustany, president of Southern California Americans for Democratic Action.

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spindoctor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-09-07 02:26 AM
Response to Reply #142
143. I stand corrected n/t
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OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 05:50 PM
Response to Original message
123. Quite a "hit piece"
One should expect better from progressive Dems.
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Toasterlad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 06:05 PM
Response to Original message
125. Wow...DLCers Really ARE Scared of the Guy.
Well, you can't blame them. No one likes to be exposed as a hypocrite and a panderer on live TV. Maybe if the "leading" candidates had some convictions of their own and were willing to stand up for the citizens of this country, Dennis wouldn't be so scary.
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NuttyFluffers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 06:15 PM
Response to Original message
126. it all makes me love him more! all of it! every last bit!
i'm just sad i can't vote for him because i'm in a different primary. but put him in a general election and he gets my vote! :)

please, please, please! tell me more about candidates, i want to lather myself in all their wonderful attributes!
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goodhue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #126
128. different primary?!
what do you mean?
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Geek_Girl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 06:16 PM
Response to Original message
127. Cool I guess this hit piece means Kucinich has gained some ground with yesterdays debate
nt
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Desertrose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #127
132. So it would seem....
So it would seem....shook up some folks, hasn't he?

DR
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burythehatchet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 07:31 PM
Response to Original message
133. like I needed another reason to dislike Kos.
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #133
134. Spot on! I let go of Kos long ago. They certainly don't speak for me. (nt)
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 08:47 PM
Response to Original message
135. The truly sad thing about this OP
is that it has to avoid entirely a discussion of the major issues facing our republic and where DK stands on those issues vs. where the annointed three stand.
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Oldenuff Donating Member (442 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-09-07 03:06 AM
Response to Original message
144. I'll take him over any of the so called "frontrunners".

It seems to me that a lot of people get caught up in one issue or another.I am guilty as well.My opinion is that our rights are under siege,and that the Patriot Act is probably the worst POS ever passed into law.No candidate who supports this will get my support or vote.Another issue is the Real ID Act,but there doesn't seem to be much info on the candidates websites about this issue.If we don't step up and preserve our rights,we might as well fold our tents and move to the detention centers.

You would be ALARMED to see how many Democratic "frontrunners" support the Patriot Act.

See who supports the (un)Patriot(ic) Act and who doesn't.Here is a hint...only Kooch..Gravel,and Paul oppose it.

http://www.2decide.com
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Dragonbreathp9d Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-09-07 06:18 AM
Response to Original message
145. You denengrade him for changing his mind to something better?
Now thats just stupid. And how is him believing in what he believes in any different than a Christian/Muslim/Jew/etc? Plus, when mayor, Kucinich kept all of his campaign promises, thus causing the 'bankrupting.' Also, he was mayor A LONG FUCKING TIME AGO. People grow, evolve, and change, don't they? This really sounds like a Faux News article.
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NotGivingUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-09-07 07:17 AM
Response to Original message
146. You and all your John & Jane Average Americans need to do a little critical thinking. n/t
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ChipperbackDemocrat Donating Member (331 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-09-07 08:00 AM
Response to Reply #146
149. The way I see Dennis
I posted this somewhere else...but I find it to be applicable here.

I think the Congressman is getting a bad rap.

1. "He looks like an elf and he doesn't look good on television."
Well, I'll agree he needs a tailor. (I have some suits I'm going to mail to him)

However, such a complaint says more about We the People in 2007.
Abraham Lincoln wouldn't have made the People's 100 Most Beautiful List either.
Franklin Delano Roosevelt stood tall, even though the man could barely stand up.

I'm voting on a person who has a plan and who wants to do the work.

2. "Kucinich needs to get off that Department of Peace thing."
I don't agree. In my relatively short lifetime, I've seen humanity accept war as a natural condition. I grew up in the last days of the Cold War. I saw Americans win it, but in some ways lose our soul to do it.
Then we had a chance to move beyond it...instead we just found a new boogieman.

Now we have somebody talking about cutting the crap and solving some of the real problems that face us all (you know, global warming, poverty, hunger, lack of clean water, etc.), and telling us we can do it best by coming together.

Now compare that to starting a war so that a few oilmen, arms dealers, Saudi sheiks and defense contractors get rich.....

Compare those visions...then ask yourself...Who's kooky?

3. "Dennis screwed up as Mayor of Cleveland."
Did he really? There's an awful lot of Clevelanders who disagree. Some of his greatest opponents in 1979, were admitting he was right 10 years later.

Would you like to know more? http://www.truthdig.com/interview/item/20061214_battle_... /

4. "Dennis believes in that New Age stuff."
I love Dennis, but when he gets a little too much Shirley McClain in him, I get nervous...But not too nervous because when he get past the crystals...He making some sense.

Here I'd like to quite the Kos article...
We can conceive of peace as not simply the absence of violence but the presence of the capacity for a higher evolution of human awareness, of respect, trust, and integrity. We can conceive of peace as a tool to tap the infinite capabilities of humanity to transform consciousness and conditions that impel or compel violence at a personal, group, or national level toward creating understanding, compassion, and love. We can bring forth new understandings where peace, not war, becomes inevitable. We can move from wars to end all wars to peace to end all wars.
Citizens across the United States are now uniting in a great cause to establish a Department of Peace, seeking nothing less than the transformation of our society, to make nonviolence an organizing principle, to make war archaic through creating a paradigm shift in our culture for human development for economic and political justice and for violence control. (This what Dennis said)

(This is how the author of the article responds)
"Higher evolution of human awareness"? "Transform consciousness"? "Paradign shift"? What the hell is this crap? I expect this kind of crap out of Deepak Chopra (or Tom Cruise), not a serious presidential candidate.


Compared to some of his professed nonsense, belief in the multiplying of the loaves and fishes seems like the height of reason.

Well I can't speak for others...But I believe in multiplying loaves and fishes. I also believe that the last shall be first and the first shall be last...and that to truly lead, you have to be prepared to truly serve.

Now I'm not big into Deepak, but those statement are far from kooky.
What is a "Higher evolution of human awareness"? In this case, its getting the idea what violence really is at the gut level. I'm not talking about the high-level. Osama bin Laden is a rich brat, but he's a smart rich brat. He's playing on despair, and poverty for his agenda. I'm talking about the gut level.

The gut level is that guy in Ramallah wearing a Semtex vest. Seeing a wall around his town. No sewage system. No jobs and a hostile army firing tank shells at his house.
The gut level is a poor farmer in a town in Honduras trying to organize his neighbors, and getting messed with by government goons bought and paid for by some fruit company.
The gut level is a Nigerian fearing the government "Kill And Go" policemen, funded by oil companies.
The gut level is getting paid 24 cents a day to make Nikes. (that's the "economic justice" part of the program)

Being aware of how these problems play into violence is gaining that higher level of human awareness.

From there gaining that awareness, we "Transform our Consciousness" -- We put our minds towards creating and implementing solutions..Then we have to put in the elbow grease. That means, we have to talk to people who may not what to talk to us. That means we'll have to visit Hugo Chavez, and Lula and Bachelet....and we'll have to go to Darfur and dig in...and we'll even have to talk to Iran and North Korea...

And we'll have to change trade policies and lift workers up instead everybody racing to the bottom.
And we'll just have to make human rights a priority.

The result will be that "Paradigm Shift" -- The idea that our country and the world is dealing with other in a new way, for result that will benefit all of us. Imagine how much more effective we could deal with global warming, energy, disease, and hunger in the world if the world was working together to provide the solutions.

Imagine how much better our inner-cities would be with expanded job programs, schools, infrastructure and health care. (Chipperback's rule -- Filled schools, factories and offices make for empty jails)

That's the paradigm shift...But a big part of them will involve making peace and social justice a real priority.

Now compare that to the way we are doing things now. Compare an emphasis on peace and justice to pre-emptive war, exploitation and economic violence at home and abroad...Then ask yourself who's "whacked out" and "crazy"?

As you think about this...remember these two song lyrics.
"There's no point to the conversation unless the conversation's peace." -- Stevie Wonder
"Free your mind and your ass will follow." -- George Clinton

If we don't put a belief that we can do better and commit to it, how can we expect "rational empirical" results in the challenges of the 21st century?

5. "Dennis is unelectable"
Dennis is electable...All we have to do is vote for him.
Now this is where I talk to fellow Kucinich supporters. We have to suit up, buckle up the chin strap and get in the game.

We know the odds are long. We know that the media is laughing at us all the way. But we have to follow the lead of our candidate:

Dennis is keepin' on keepin' on.

Dennis is slugging it out. He's the 5'6" troll, but that man has a backbone, and a heart.
I've met the man. I'll tell you, he has what "Presidential" is all about.

But he can't do it by himself. We have work to do.
That's means Stop whining about the media ignoring us...and the party ignoring us."
When your area has party committee meetings BE THERE!
Spread the word whenever the opportunity is there.
Respect those who have a different view, but don't back down either. Whether it is here, or on the streets, or in the party meetings, etc.

To those who don't support Dennis, it's cool. We have a big field and all these candidates are a dang sight better than the current occupant of 1600 Pennsylvania Ave.

A final thought...Before you call Dennis Kucinich crazy...Remember..

1776 -- "We hold these truths to be self evident..." ARE YOU CRAZY?

1787 -- "We the people, In order to form a more perfect union.." ARE YOU CRAZY?

1861 -- "Labor is greater than capital and should receive the greater consideration" -- ARE YOU CRAZY?

1872 -- "Women's sufferage. That damn Woodhull woman done gone crazy!"

1886 -- "Raise less corn and more hell?!?! That Mary Ellen Lease is Crazy!"

1903 -- "WILBER AND ORVILLE ARE CRAZY! THAT THING AIN'T FLYIN'!"

1907 -- "THEY WANNA BREAK UP MY TRUSTS??? IS ROOSEVELT CRAZY?"

1911 -- "YOU WANNA ACTUALLY PAY WORKERS DECENTLY? SO THEY CAN BUY THE CARS??? HENRY, YOU ARE CRAZY!"

1936 -- "WPA? TVA? Protect people's bank accounts FDR IS CRAZY?"

Somewhere in Germany, 1944 -- "THEY LANDED WHERE??? WHERE THE HELL DID ALL THESE BOMBERS COME FROM??? HOW DID THEY BUILD ALL THOSE DAMN TANKS??? ARE THOSE AMERICANS CRAZY???"

1955 -- "YOU AREN'T GIVING UP THE SEAT? WOMAN ARE YOU CRAZY?"

1956 -- "THEM DARN NEGROES AREN'T GETTING ON THE BUSES -- DANG CRAZY REVEREND NAMED KING GOT 'EM ALL RILED UP!"

1961 -- "WE'RE GOING WHERE BY 1970? THE MOON? KENNEDY IS CRAZY!!!"

Moscow, 1962 -- "TURN THOSE SHIPS AROUND NOW! KENNEDY IS CRAZY, LIKE A FOX!"

1963 -- "PROTESTORS ARE COMING ACROSS THE BRIDGE, SHERIFF...ARE THEY CRAZY?"

1965 -- "WAR ON POVERTY? LYNDON...YOU'RE CRAZY!"

1969 -- "THERE'S MEN ON THE MOON -- HOW CRAZY IS THAT???"

1976 -- "IS THIS CARTER GUY FOR REAL? OR JUST CRAZY!"

1979 -- "DON'T BE CRAZY STEVE, NOBODY'S PUTTING A COMPUTER IN THEIR HOUSE"

1991 -- "YOU'D HAVE TO BE CRAZY TO THINK GEORGE BUSH WILL LOSE IN '92"

2007 -- "DEPARTMENT OF PEACE? UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE? PRESIDENT KUCINICH? YOU ARE TALKING CRAZY!"

2013 -- "Universal Health Care? check! World trade that really works for workers? check! American industry and labor running strong? check! American building a lead in green technology? check! More respected in the world? check! That Department of Peace is getting some things done. AND THINK, IN 2007 EVERYBODY SAID PRESIDENT KUCINICH WAS CRAZY!"

"Craziness" built America. "Craziness" grew America. Is it so crazy that think that the same can save America? I don't think so.


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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-09-07 07:56 AM
Response to Original message
148. I think Kucinich and his knack for truth telling scares the shit out of all the dc'ers.
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Zomby Woof Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-09-07 08:00 AM
Response to Original message
150. Every candidate is "electable"
Lack of mainstream acceptance does not mean one would not make a good president. Just look at how accepted Reagan was. And then recoil at the memory.

I think the real issue is that America isn't mature enough for leaders like Kucinich. His district, however, has had no problems electing him repeatedly to Congress. "Electability" is not his weakness.

If his 3% polling is so insignificant, why the disproportionate energy wasted in a hit piece? I'd rather save my fire for the goddamned Republicans running this country into the ground. Kucinich has been a force for positive change in Congress. More than I can say about your impact on discussion at DU.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-09-07 02:37 PM
Response to Original message
153. He's got my vote any time he wants it.
I figure that's what makes someone "electable." When there are people who support them enough to vote for them.

My vote is just as valid as anyone else's. :D
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