Kos vs. DLC

[Coexist]

What follows is a transcript of part of the 'debate' on MTP this morning.

First a few thoughts of my own:

Ford opened first - and he chose to start out in a strange, half-kiss ass, half-good-buddy mode. To me, this made him look weak and conciliatory; I thought at first it may have been strategic - he wanted Markos to be forced to begin as suck-upingly, and acknowledge the debt the Dems owed the DLC in return. But all it did, really, was bring to mind the entire slate of No-Show Presidential contenders at the recent DLC function. This led me believe, with a little shock, that the DLC is in bad shape, and they were forced to show their desperation on national television. A little pitiful, really. I wondered how Markos would open - how long would the pleasantries be bandied about before the first shot was fired? Oh... about... not at all.

Markos didn't return the 'compliments'. He went right to the issues. His style was all honesty and common sense. He obviously had no pressures to bow to, or handlers to please. Markos represented himself with great skill and intelligence - for whatever reason - Ford brought a knife to this gunfight.

Follow this link to the full diary, which includes links to the video.

MR. MOULITAS: The problem we have, though, is we've, we've had a, a, an organization that, one, has, has been on the wrong side of a lot of ideas. We're talking John Breaux, Senator John Breaux, who's an architect of George Bush's tax cuts, which have led our nation to record deficits, record debt, and a crumbling infrastructure, as we've seen in Katrina and as we've seen in, in Minnesota. I mean, crazy thing, but the American people want their bridges to stay in one piece. So we, we have a situation like that. On Social Security...

REP. FORD: You can't blame the--Markos, I got great respect for you, but I'm not going to let you get away with blaming the Democratic Leadership Council or anything that we support, sir, for, for anything...

MR. MOULITSAS: Senator John Breaux, who was the chairman of the DLC...

REP. FORD: Right.

MR. MOULITSAS: ...was the chief architect. This is something you put...

REP. FORD: But not of crumbling--not of crumbling infrastructure.

MR. MOULITSAS: Well, what do you think, you're going to cut taxes and not pay for the priorities in our nation. I mean, obviously, there has to be a way to pay for these things. And to come out and say, "Well we're going to cut taxes, and we're going to let these deficits run up, and we're going to let our infrastructure crumble," clearly it's the wrong way to go. On health care, on the war in Iraq, which you still refuse to say is a big mistake.

REP. FORD: It's, it's...

MR. MOULITSAS: You, you were on just on Fox News. So, clearly, we have a situation where you have an organization that's been on the wrong side of the issues and has failed to really build a movement, has failed to really draw popular support...At YearlyKos, we had all these organizations at the same table--labor, the issue groups. The one organization that was still missing was the DLC. That's the one organization that refuses to acknowledge...(unintelligible)...with me.

It didn't get any better or worse. Until the very end. Markos and Ford shook hands and smiled. And after a quick second, the 'politician's confidence' left Harold Ford's eyes, and he looked nervous and scared - it showed on his face for a very brief moment before the camera cut away.

That look really said it all.

[kenfrequed]

1. I watched it

And Ford was every bit as dull and absurd as one might expect. He does not represent most Democrats and, if you look at some of his war policy and corporate friendly positions, I don't think he represents the majority of Americans.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

2. Mr. Moulitas was impressive, again. I theorize the reason that David Gregory hosted is that

Markos handed Timmeh his ample ass the last time he appeared on MTP, via satellite.

Mr. Russert was bowing and scraping all over himself by the end of that brief segment. It was a wonder to behold. :-) MKJ



on edit, one less "that"

[Coexist]

3. I missed that one - I will have to check youtube.

thanks for the heads up.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

8. I think it was shortly before the Nov 2006 midterms. Please post if you find it.

TIA. MKJ

[Coexist]

21. this one?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Six75Wa1hp0

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

23. Yes! Markos nicely deflected the "echo chamber" snippet from Russert which was

really the only gotcha attempt from Timmeh.

MKJ

[Gregorian]

4. I had to paste this into the url address bar to get the video to work-

mms://msnbc.wmod.llnwd.net/a275/e1/video/100/mtp_netcast_070812.asf



Still watching. I'm very excited to see Markos on the TV. He speaks for us. We've had questions about who he might be. I have full faith in him. I really appreciate having his ideas and words put into the public arena.



Edit- If members of the DLC are proud to be Democrats, and they want an undivided party, then why do they not simply remain a part of the DNC?

[environmentalist]

6. Not for everyone

You said Markos "speaks for us"

That's not true. Markos does not speak for many liberals who've found his past loose-cannon comments, the mismanagement of his site and his lack of due diligence appalling (link).

One debate with Harold Ford does not make for a victory, not does it bring the democratic party together -- something that will be needed in the upcoming election to counter the Rovian and Diebold tactics that everyone should expect are coming.

Right now, the word I'm getting from the Dem left is one of concern that he's a loose cannon and that it's only the volume of eyeballs on his site is that is getting him such seeming cooperation. The minute he makes another gaffe or as soon there's a viable site with more professional moderation, they will abandon him as his personality is not one to inspire personal loyalty.

FYI

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

10. He inspires no "loyalty" nor do I see him as a loose cannon. He was articulate and well spoken today

He was quite clear that he is partisan and he was quite clear that the DLC has, in his view, been less than receptive to the millions of progressives who have greatly influenced the political netroots dialog.

BTW, many members of the DLC have benefited directly by his, and many others, harnessing of this marketplace of ideas.

He is no saint, however, he did not demonstrate any of this behavior about which "the left" seems so concerned on the show today.

MKJ


edit: networks to netroots.

[environmentalist]

12. The show wasn't the problem

the problem is attitudinal at a basic personality level. I don't agree that he was as well spoken as you say, nor do I see Markos as the "harnesser" of the marketplace, no matter how many "I" statements he wants to make to anyone who hasn't dealt with him directly.

I wouldn't say this if I hadn't personally seen him display his lack of good judgment toward several people I know over an extended period of time. The impression I came away with was exactly the same I've heard from others. The guy leaves bodies in his wake. People tend to remember when they're treated with disrespect and cruelty and Markos has spread around his share of both. I am not gossiping here. I've witnessed it personally, and, as a result, I found his performance on MTP to be just that: a performance.

As for the DLC, imo, they have a lot of work to do to "bring the left together" as Ford proclaimed he wants to do -- as does the DCCC. The way they will or won't work with candidates -- often based on the money they can or cannot raise -- is destructive the democratic party (again imo) and that needs to change.

That being said, the DLC's responsibilities do not include to excusing Markos for the mistakes they're very well aware he's made in alienating many people. Part of their attitude toward him may be competition and that needs to change, but part of it is based on people who've come forward about the way they've been treated by Markos and Markos is the only one who can change that.

[Coexist]

20. the DLC and the DCCC want to 'bring the left together'?

yeah - ask Paul Hackett and the others they have chosen not to "crown". They want to bring the left UNDER CONTROL like a bad teenager that needs to be 'worked' into doing what the parents want.

Here is a nice summary from Booman Tribune on the debate:

http://www.boomantribune.com/story/2007/8/12/11458/3157
I watched this morning's debate on Meet the Press between Markos Moulitsas and Harold Ford Jr. It was hosted by MC Rove's BFF, David 'Stretch' Gregory. I have to give kudos to Markos. He wiped the floor with Ford. I was particularly surprised with Markos' tone, which was so far from respectful that he actually called Ford a 'shill' at one point. Not only that, but he forced Ford to bow down and kiss his ring, promising to attend next year's Netroots Nation conference.
I noticed that Markos has learned the art of answering the question that you want to answer, rather than the question that was posed. In doing so, he was able to keep up the attack and not sound defensive. When Ford got frustrated he accused Daily Kos of making hateful remarks about Jewish Americans. Markos parried that ridiculous charge with easeand then asked Ford why he goes on Fox News and attacks Harry Reid.

Markos repeatedly alluded to the DLC's incredibly small membership, lack of movement support, and embarrassment with core progressive values. The funniest part of the segment was when Markos blamed the DLC's policies for the collapse of the New Orleans levees and the bridge in Minneapolis. Ford didn't like that, but Markos didn't back down...telling him that slashing taxes was no way to upkeep the nation's infrastructure.

<snip>
It was an excellent performance by Markos. He made Harold Ford look slightly clueless and incredibly weak, as he groveled and spouted meaningless platitudes, in an apparent effort to suck up to the netroots. The DLC needs a better spokesperson. And no wonder Harold Ford couldn't beat Bob Corker. He is not a good debater.

[environmentalist]

32. To clarify

I didn't say the DLC wanted to bring the left together. I said that Ford said they did.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

22. So you have a personal beef with him, then. You clearly don't like him and

seem determined to attack him, so nothing I can say will add much more to this discussion.

Your vendetta is noted. MKJ

[environmentalist]

31. Wow

My post was based on direct observation. It's not a vendetta, it was an observation. If you have a personal affinity for Markos, that's your business. Everyone's entitled to their opinion. What's not allowed, according to the board rules I read before I signed on here are personal attacks. Your response seem very much like a personal attack, so, you're right, there's no discussion here.

[spotbird]

24. There is no

ideological difference between Markos and the DLC. This "controversy" is like pro-wrestling, all made up to please the masses.

Markos is not progressive, or even liberal. He is a Reagan Republican, who still believes Reagan was good for the country. Why people haven't seen through him by now is beyond me.

[Marr]

30. The DLC's version of "bringing the left together" is

just dragging it to the right and cramming DLC policies down it's throat.

That's "bringing people together", like dictatorial oppression is "peace".

[bvar22]

13. No kidding? You get word "from the Dem left "?

Which "Dem left" are you referring to?

Where is this mysterious organization (Dem left) and how do you get their "word"?
Do they send out a newsletter?

[Gelliebeans]

16. I just was trying to figure out that one out myself... n/t

[environmentalist]

19. I was writing

from personal experience:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=1572260&mesg_id=1573702

[Gregorian]

15. I probably shouldn't have spoken for anyone but myself, but it isn't about Markos.

He made that clear. And that is the power is what he's saying. It's really about us. And I think my mistake was that I believe there is more "us" than people realize. America isn't a conservative nation.

[environmentalist]

18. That I would agree with

It is about us. The concern should be about the people who forget that, who see themselves as more powerful than the people they represent -- on either side -- along with those who manipulate fear and voting machines and voter lists to subvert democracy (that's on the repub side). My concern is those dems who get into the circular firing squad and undermine each other rather than working together for the common good. I saw too much of that on previous campaigns -- both operatives and grassroots representatives who were more interested in promoting themselves then the causes and people they purported to represent.

As for America not being a conservative nation, I hope you're right. What I see are a growing number of conservatives who are horrified by the debacle in Iraq (as they should be) and the incompetence of Katrina. That's what's pushing Bush's poll numbers down. I don't think we can assume all of them won't vote Republican for someone else, especially if there's some kind of event (i.e. attack) that spurs the republican fear machine and their fear into a frenzy.

Which is another way of saying 'can't we all just get along'? (dem-wise). From that point of view, I find the competition between the far left and the Dem center to be counterproductive. I just don't believe that Rove and company are done with their tricks to allow for complacency.

[spotbird]

25. DU is much further left

than DK. The problem here is that this doesn't have the "blog feel" to it. For some reason that I don't understand, this format doesn't yield the kind of in depth conversation that attracted so many to DailyKos early on.

If a true liberal hijacked the best of DailyKos, added very judicious administrative moderation, abandoned the user troll ratings, and maybe even eliminated the ratings of comments all together, they'd be onto something. The recommend diary function was good at DailyKos, and it's nice that something similar was adopted here. The problem at DK now is even the recommend function is not entirely the judgment of the users. The administrators can move a diary up or down despite user opinion, that change diluted what was good about the place even further.

[environmentalist]

27. Very well put

Your analysis seems spot-on (is that why you're called spotbird? :) )

Thanks.


Posted by The Environmentalist

[PADemD]

5. Repeat at 10 p.m. on MSNBC

If you missed it this morning.

[annabanana]

7. k&r. . . . . On again 10 mins.. . . . n/t

[illinoisprogressive]

9. good debate and I agree. ford is forced to be nice to markos.

With the rise of the progressives, the blogs and Howard Dean, the DLC has been exposed for what it is.
No one really knew about it or what it was in the 90s. Now that democrats do, they hate the DLC. We see how it weakened our party, pulled us so far right and what caused the dems to become spineless.
Clinton was leader of the DLC in the 90s but, for all the nostalgia if you look with an open eye you realize that Bill Clinton is a weak man. Not fatally like Bush. But, he is weak in many ways.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

11. Always can count on your posts to encompass the words "hate" and "Clinton" every time. Doesn't Sen.

Obama's campaign have another blog "supporter" who is less enamored of rhetorical beatings around the head, and instead discusses the merits of their candidate in a way which connects and inspires?

IP, you're one of the reasons that I've become quite leery of his candidacy. If you represent the standard supporter and/or campaign worker, then his vision is not as he purports it to be.

I truly haven't decided on which of the Dem candidates will have my support as I wait for this ridiculously long campaign season to play out, but Sen. Clinton's, Sen. Edwards's and Congressman Kuchinich's DU supporters/campaigners, put out great information on the people they support, without attacking the other candidates relentlessly.

I know, I know, there are always exceptions, however, in your case, it's becoming a constant, which is tiresome and seemingly devised to create hostility rather than encourage interactions.

Again, if you're operating at the behest of the Obama campaign, something which I've not seen you deny when confronted about it, then his campaign is in trouble. MKJ

[bvar22]

14. I saw this historic event!

Ford was groveling. Kos was great.

In 2004, the DLC was screaming that the "fringe left" should be expelled from the Democratic Party.
In 2007 the Chairman of the DLC appears on National TV begging for mercy.
Kos offered no mercy, and the DLC deserves none.
A good day for the "Fringe Looney Left".

Even the DLC candidate (Hillary) refused to attend the DLC convention and went to YearlyKos instead.
:rofl:

[Polemicist]

17. Kos has the courage of his convictions....

Something that is lacking in many people put forward by the media to speak for Democrats. Kos isn't running for office, he isn't trying to get hired by a campaign, he isn't auditioning for a regular gig on a cable news networks, and he isn't beholden to anyone.

So he can speak freely and honestly about what he believes. That's what has been missing from what I have seen on TV for years from "Democrats". And I'm talking primarily about the Dems tapped for talking on such shows as Meet the Press. Never are they Progressives, it's been the DLCers for almost two decades. It's refreshing to see and hear a real Progressive Democrat speaking his mind.

And I don't know about all the stuff that's recently been targeted against Kos. Success brings detractors. I read his stuff almost every day and I agree with him on about 99.99% of what he says. That's good enough for me. I don't really care if he was an asshole to somebody. Sometimes people need to meet an asshole. Sometimes they deserve to get dressed down.

Kos doesn't kiss the asses of special interests. Ours or theirs. He believes, as I do, that to advance progressive ideas politically, we need to elect Democrats and not fight over what a real Democrat is. If we elect enough Democrats, we will get enough real Progressive ones to effect positive change for America. You can't lead as a permanent minority party. The DLCers taught us that.

[spotbird]

26. If he does have the courage

of his convictions, we have fundamental disagreements about what is right and necessary.

Do you know what Kos believes? I'm not being nasty, I'm just curious.

[Polemicist]

28. I read what Kos writes...

Almost every day and have for several years. I have no reason to think he doesn't believe what he writes. I don't always agree with him, but I do the vast majority of the time. And as I said, I'm confident he pisses off some liberal special interests, because he will back who he thinks can be a winner as a candidate, over someone who might grade out higher on "ideological purity".

He is a Democratic Party partisan, and a progressive, but he will support moderate Democrats against Republicans, if he thinks that they can win. He doesn't go 100% with liberal/progressive candidates and I think that's a lot of why his detractors from the left get upset.

I live in South Carolina. We can't get a Progressive Democrat elected in my district. But we might get a moderate Democrat elected, that thinks like us on 75% of the issues, instead of a wacky Republican that disagrees with us 90% of the time. That to me is worthwhile and a pragmatic approach. And that's the way Kos looks at politics as well.

However, Kos doesn't speak for me. No one speaks for me, but myself. Well, Howard Dean does at times, but he's our party leader.

[Marr]

29. You know, that's a damn good point he made there.

I've heard alot of talk about how the candidates didn't show up at that DLC event, but I'd heard nothing about the fact that the *DLC* did not attend the Daily Kos event.

For the DLC to complain that candidates don't want to pay tribute to them is bad enough, but to do it while completely ignoring the actual grassroots movement really puts them in an unflattering light. They're very top-down, authoritarian sorts of figures-- and I don't think that attitude has a place in the Democratic Party.