What's worse.. beating your wife or what Vick did?

[nini]

God forbid I defend that monster on any level but what pisses me off is the NFL doesn't seem to mind women beating, steroids, various gun possesion issues.. etc.. BUT the dog issues gets a guy kicked out?

I love animals and what Vick did is beyond disgusting. But I also think those macho bastards who beat their wives should be shown the door too.

Does the NFL value dogs over women? I'd say so because they don't seem to value women at all.

If they want me to believe they give a shit about the conduct of their players they need to punish any of them that broke laws - not just the guy who's victims were animals.


For anyone who is going to accuse me of hating animals - save it - that couldn't be farther from the truth. My issue is the NLF letting all the other disgusting things slide by.

[LeftyMom]

1. They care about their image

If the public doesn't care, they don't care. If the public is upset, it hurts the NFL as a brand and the player is in deep shit, no matter who he is.

[natrat]

20. whats worse some drunk bitch slapping her boyfriend around or drowning a dog

[pstans]

45. Woman are able to leave the situation or call the police, while animals can not

The animals were in his possession. He was caring for them. I know there is a lot of mental intimidation and things going on in an abuseful relationship, but the woman would still be able to just leave or call the cops.

I would compare what Vick did more to harming a child.

[johnaries]

48. Actually, most women are not able to leave.

It's complicated and I can't possibly explain it in a few paragraphs, but abused women are not able to leave as easily as most people might think for a variety of reasons real or imagined. I've known several, and it took them years before they were able to get away.
For instance, one called the police and the police took her abuser to jail. She went to press charges, and they promised her she'd have at least eight hours to pack and leave before he would be out. He came home less than 2 hours later and raped her with a knife. The doctors were barely able to save her life, and she can no longer have children as a result. Did she have him arrested again? No, she was afraid it would be worse next time. And obviously the police didn't care (at least in her mind). It took her years to finally get up the nerve again to get away. And he is still stalking her - she is still scared to death he'll find her again.
I've known several similar stories.
So, while most people think battered women can just leave - it's not nearly that simple.

[misanthrope]

113. There are ways to take care of that...

...but they're not within the bounds of the law.

I heard a story once of a woman who systematically broke open thermometers and dropped the small amount of mercury into the toes of her husband's shoes. Time passed and levels compiled until he died from the toxicity. Authorities thought it was traditional mercury poisoning via food source that built up in the blood.

She would have gotten away with it had the wife not run her mouth to a friend while drunk one night.

[Name removed]

64. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nini]

21. very true

the pressure because of the reaction made them do what they did - which I agree with - I just wish the women abusers would get a just punishment also.

[hang a left]

65. "The Women Abusers"

You are killing me...

That is a hugh ha ha ha ha ha

[natrat]

125. sounds funny but there are women who are phyically abusive and get away with it because of gender

[BuyingThyme]

2. I didn't beat her very hard.

I'm going with Vick.

[OrangeCountyDemocrat]

3. Why Do You People Waste Time Posting STUPID Questions?

And why do I feel compelled to respond to them?

WHAT IN THE FUCK DOES ONE THING HAVE TO DO WITH ANOTHER?????

Beating the Shit out of a spouse, is NO BETTER than beating the Shit out of a dog.

They're both horrible, and anybody who does either is STILL A PIECE OF GARBAGE!!

End Of Story.

[Stuckinthebush]

6. At least it's not posted as a poll

Nothing worse than some DU polls!

:D

[Bluebear]

16. lolol see 2 down from you

[nini]

12. the point I was making and you seemed to miss was regarding the NFL

and their handling of issues with their players. So, they do have to do with each other in the context I asked it.



You should have controlled yourself and not posted in my stupid question thread :eyes:

[OrangeCountyDemocrat]

19. NFL Is A CORRUPT Corporate WHORE Organization

Run by a bunch of RICH FUCKS.

Employing a bunch of RICH FUCKS. Many of whom might be in prison somewhere, if not for the opportunity to make FUCKING MILLIONS throwing and catching a ball.

They stick by their own. Whether it's a crime of drunk driving, beating dogs, KILLING DOGS, or beating a spouse, the NFL will do as little as possible.

I don't doubt Vick will be back playing, and I don't doubt that any player who beats his wife, would get a slap on the wrist.

"THEY" only care about $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. THAT'S IT! If they could figure out a way for Vick to play, THEY WOULD.

It matters little what he's convicted of.

[nini]

26. EXACTLY... so why are you so pissed at me?

It pisses me off they are what they are and only did anything this time because of the outrage over this case.

ALL the shit the players do should be addressed as severely. That's all I'm saying and yes I know the NFL is run by assholes who only care about money - that's my point.

[OrangeCountyDemocrat]

27. Your Question

It's just a lame question.

Like asking, who is worse....King george or King dick?

The only solution is to avoid the product altogether. Which is obviously tough, since NFL is so powerful and omnipresent in our culture.

[nini]

32. Thank you for your input

It's been very enlightening :sarcasm:

[hang a left]

70. The product is Football; the NFL

Nobody including my female self is going to stop watching, cheering, or enjoying professional football. Unless individuals just don't enjoy sports, I am sure your boycott will have little effect. If you don't like sports; then you shouldn't be bothered by players that commit crimes.

Maybe you should direct your rage against bankers. Plenty of them commit crimes.

Or maybe politicians, many of them commit crimes.

How about any other profession whose peoples engage in criminal activity; lets post a tirade regarding those persons.

Sports are an integral part of society. Just because you don't like sports or there participants does not make the entire sports community evil.

Like I said in an earlier post....

You really get on my last nerve.

[emilyg]

37. Not NFL but

Braves Bobby Cox had to do anger management when he was abusive to his wife.

[Name removed]

68. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WildEyedLiberal]

74. How many times are you going to spam the thread with this crap?

If nini "gets. on. your. nerves" that goddamn much, put her on ignore and stop spamming the board with this infantile bullshit.

[WhiteTara]

90. make that kill his wife and get away with it n/t

[Catherine Vincent]

92. Geeze.

Chill out.

[donsu]

105. true, it is all about the money - they don't even really care about the players

and the players want to keep getting the big paychecks

and the spectators don't really care either. they just want the game on with the players, playing.

american men would have nervous breakdowns if pro football disappeared.

[TankLV]

60. poster withdraws post...

I've rethought my position...

[Bluebear]

13. At least it's not a poll question!

[treestar]

53. How would you like it if you posted a question and got a

response like this?

There's no reason to be so nasty.

[TankLV]

61. Yes it is - this is almost flamebait. It's lame, stupid, & I wonder about the poster's agenda...

On Edit: I've had a change of mind - there is value in this discussion after all...

I apologize to the OP...

[lastliberalintexas]

115. So Warren Moon also faced a lifetime ban

after his wife called 911 on him? Thanks for that information, because I didn't remember that part of the story. Makes me wonder why he was able to play for several more years in the NFL, then. Those Vikings sure faced a backlash for getting him from Houston, right?


I think the OP meant something like this:

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/sports/columnists/orl-bianchi0507aug05,0,7785251.column?track=rss

[Stuckinthebush]

4. Apples and Oranges

But they are both bad and they should both carry severe punishment.

Anyone who exhibits the type of cruelty toward animals like Vick did deserves the scorn of the public.

[stuntcat]

47. yah, comparing them won't prove anything, to me

I've seen this same question carried pretty far on a site full of idiots I sometimes look at.

but..
to me the fact that the dogs are chained up and never have a chance to get away from it makes a little difference.. and I'm known to give animals credit for having little souls :blush:

Both crimes are terribly sick and twisted.

[blogslut]

5. Both are equally reprehensible

Also reprehensible is the way we coddle professional athletes.

[OrangeCountyDemocrat]

14. And Entertainers As Well

How do people like Lohan, Hilton or Spears remain popular and beloved?

I think we've just deteriorated as a culture, and am just disgusted with what we've become in this country.

[nini]

15. exactly....

that was pretty much where I was going with all this.

[blondeatlast]

24. I LOVE b-ball (if DU had the WNBA avs, I'd use a Mercury one), but oh, how I utterly agree.

They are overpaid, overprivileged, and from high school and up are taught that they are entitled to live without shame.

The few truly honest and good ones (Pat Tillman, Steve Nash, etc--both of whom are (were) very liberal, btw) are few and far between indeed. Now that we know that even the officiating is suspect (que'lle surprise--NOT) it stinks even more.

Athletics is ideally about human potential but it's been distorted to "me at any cost--to hell with my teammates."

Vick is a product of the environment--but that excuses none of his reprehensible behavior.

[hang a left]

72. With all due respect....

and I mean that sincerely. Athletes are heroes to our youth. My children have always looked up to, and idolized them. From Michael Jordon to Alex Rodriquez to Brett Farve.

There is nothing wrong with professional sports. Kids aspire to become professional athletes through middle school, high school, and college. Some earn scholarships.

[blogslut]

7. double post

oopsie

[LisaL]

8. If Vick's plea deal includes prison time, it would be kind of hard

for him to play when he is in prison, wouldn't it?
And who exactly are those macho bastards that (according to you) beat their wives?

[jgraz]

9. It's an easy one for me to answer

What Vick did was not merely beat or bully an innocent being. He tortured them -- often to death -- and he did it for sport.

Beating a spouse or child is a horrible act, but what Vick did is a few levels beyond this. He should be kept away from civilized society for the rest of his life.

[Deja Q]

10. Wife beating is worse.

The MN Vikings got caught a couple years ago by hosting a big orgy on a boat going down the Mississippi river... Dunno why I brought THAT up, except I won't argue your belief about the conduct of sports players. Hell, Randy Moss got off from pushing a cop with his car... something the rest of us would be given rather stern punishment for.

[BlooInBloo]

11. Never been a word of outrage on DU because of that. Huh. Looky that...

... And yet people post threads about their bloodlust to see Vick devoured by dogs.

:rofl:


DUers slay me.

(But not if I were a wife-beater.)

[SoCalDem]

17. Why can't both/either be equally bad? n/t

[nini]

18. I didn't say they couldn't be.

I believe all should be equally punished.

[SoCalDem]

28. actually , now that I think about it..animal abuse is worse.

When you marry someone, it;s assumed that they are of a certain age and are most likely of some intelligence (I know, I know)..but the human spouse of an abuser at least has a chance to use a phone, or even escape, and they can tell someone what's happening..

the animals who are caged and totally under the control of the human, have no such chance, and they did not willingly enter into that relationship.

[napi21]

22. Both are wrong! Both are illegal! However, let me say, as a woman,

AND one who's been threatened many years ago, I had the option of kicking the guy out! I had the option to prosecute him!

DOGS DON'T!

Looks to me like the BIG BRAVE GUYS are picking on something that can't fight back!

[DeSwiss]

23. nini, I know what you're sayin.....

...and I posted an article on this issue (http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1609406">link) last Friday, but there wasn't much interest.

Here's an interesting article from Salon on the same subject, with a quiz from Radar Online on it....

Wife Abuse vs. Dog Abuse
Salon - Broadsheet By Tracy Clark-Flory
http://www.salon.com/mwt/broadsheet/2007/08/17/vick/print.html?blog=/mwt/broadsheet/2007/08/17/vick/index.html

DeSwiss

[nini]

29. Thank You.. that article is what I was getting at

:thumbsup:

[idgiehkt]

58. Oh, I get it, this anger is at the sporting world

sometimes I read things like this as being directed at DU animal lovers who supposedly "love animals more than people" or whatever.

[noamnety]

91. The bitchslap quiz is worth clicking

1. IS THIS QUOTE ABOUT MICHAEL VICK OR AN ALLEGED STALKER?

"In visiting with him, I can see he's pretty much upset. I anticipated that, so I thought the wise thing to do would be to not start him tonight and more than likely play him tomorrow."

2. IS THIS QUOTE ABOUT DOGFIGHTING OR DOMESTIC VIOLENCE?

"I have seen one individual in my lifetime electrocuted in the electric chair. ... It is not a beautiful spectacle. So I can say I could witness another one if it involves this ..."

3. IS THE SPEAKER MICHAEL VICK OR AN ATHLETE WHO WAS ACCUSED OF RAPE?

"Yeah, I've had some interaction ... 'Love you, can I have your autograph?' 'God bless you and we're praying for you.' That type of thing."

4. IS THIS QUOTE ABOUT DOGFIGHTING OR DOMESTIC VIOLENCE?

"The number of e-mails and statements we're getting from consumers was pretty telling about how disturbing people find these allegations to be."

5. IS THIS QUOTE ABOUT MICHAEL VICK OR A PLAYER ACCUSED OF DOMESTIC ABUSE?

"I don't think that would be fair to ; he's done a lot of good things."

http://radaronline.com/features/2007/08/michael_vick_dog_fighting_kobe_bryant_01.php

[Colorado Progressive]

25. I see your point

and I know that you are trying to point out that there is a lot of hypocrosy in the way the NFL handles its abusive players. Most of them dont get caught (with witnesses anyways) beating their wives. Not saying that they all do either, just the evidence against Vick was so incriminating and embarassing for the NFL.

Just FYI there are a lot of angry posters on here right now because of another thread, and they are taking it out on you.

:hug:

[nini]

33. I missed that other thread.. but it explains some of the nastiness

whoa.. I had no idea this was gonna make some people crazy or I wouldn't have posted.


thanks for the :hug: that was needed :D

[ecstatic]

30. It probably depends on what color the wife is?

:shrug:

[MrSlayer]

31. There are nuances.

Vick tortured and killed many animals simply because they weren't mean enough or strong enough to go through prolonged torture while dishing out the same and ultimately killing another animal. That is not just criminal, it's sick to a very high degree. A guy getting drunk and slapping his wife around for no reason is also criminal and sick but not to the degree of torturing and killing multiple animals for years on end. There are other domestic disputes that happen where both parties are violent. Still criminal but not necessarily sick and heinous. The specifics of each case matter. There is nothing those dogs could have done to deserve what this guy did to them. Animals are innocent and it's always worse when an innocent is harmed.

[nini]

34. I agree with your points

There is a special kind of evil in what he did.

I just wish the chronic abusers were punished too.

[MrSlayer]

39. Allow me to agree right back.

One incident you could possibly forgive as a mistake, depending on the circumstances. Doing it again should result in the player being thrown out of the league and thrown in jail. It should not be tolerated. The new NFL commissioner is setting a new precedent as far as off the field discipline. You will see those incidents being punished far more harshly than they have in the past. The other leagues are way behind on this type of thing.

[TankLV]

62. I almost posted the same response - but then the idea of using "punishment" as a remedy for

"punishment" or violence for violence stopped me in mid sentence...

Somehow these cruel sick creatures must be SEPARATED from society, then they should have extensive therepy - but using one form of cruelty as an act for another form of cruelty just stopped me cold...

Now, mind you, I said this even tho my first of many reactions is to be a cruel and inhumane to those beasts who treat others that way - but then I'm glad there are laws that would save me from my baser instincts...

OK, maybe up thread I was wrong - there is a good point to this discussion - it made some of us think harder again about the subject...

I don't think we are there yet as a society where there is a good answer for this inhumanity...

That's why there are soo many books and stuff on the subject...

[Raine]

35. WHY does it have to

be a choice BOTH are disgusting and against the law. It seems that someone like Vick values neither, only his own pathetic hide as far as he concerned has value. x(

[ruiner4u]

36. Worst of the worst.. beating your wife's dog...

[JanMichael]

38. I don't mean to be a dumb ass.....

but, which players are you writing about?

It's late... and I can't think of a player (I know) right off the top of my head that was convicted of wife beating--

For the record, ANY clown convicted of a crime should be released from their contracts.

[AtomicKitten]

40. both are reprehensible

[Mutineer]

41. Why does it be either/or?

I don't get why it has to be one or the other.

[rudeboy666]

42. NFL only reflects current society

Society seems more outraged by the killing and torture of certain animals i.e. mainly domestic pets. (note that this issue of selective outrage over animal killing is another can of worms)

Anyway, society is basically screwed up in a schizoid type of way.

[mitchum]

43. Beating your wife with a pit bull?

[MADem]

44. What's worse--cutting off your husband's balls or electrocuting a few pit bulls?

Really, why compare disgusting acts, as though there's some sort of hierarchy of them?

Once you cross the line into "You are a fucking asshole" there's no turning back.

So, the NFL has problems distinguishing. That's THEIR problem. And if the fans don't call them on it, that's the problem for the fans.

You beat your wife, you cut off your husband's balls, you electrocute dogs...you're an asshole!

[AZBlue]

46. I find both nauseating.

Perhaps now we'll be able to go after the wife-beating monsters too. I believe this has opened some doors.

[hlthe2b]

49. there is something just so intrinsically disgusting about this...

I don't even know what to say... What next-- divining whether poking out one eye of a dog equates to raping and humiliating ones wife in front of others?


Trying to equate or prioritize our horror over one act of cruelty versus another is just plain disgusting in my book. How about we strive to stop violence and cruelty towards both humans AND animals instead of trying to determine which rises to the most extreme level of outrage? :eyes:

[global1]

50. I Watched The Bears-Colts Game This Evening And The Announcers Were Obsessed With.....

talking about this Vick case. I don't think they spent as much time on the game as they did talking about Vick and whether he'd ever play again in the NFL. Look - this guy is contaminated now. He shouldn't play again in the NFL. If I had kids watching this game - I'd be upset - because of the time they spent on a guy that shouldn't be held up in any way as a role model for kids and sport.

Put Vick in jail. Put him behind. Don't bring him up again at an NFL game. The guy did wrong - maybe the next player that thinks he can do no wrong will think twice.

[hlthe2b]

52. "he did wrong?"

Hitting someone else's car and driving away is "doing wrong."

Cheating on a test is "doing wrong."

Failure to pay your parking tickets is "doing wrong."




Torturing and murdering defenseless animals using electrocution, hanging, or other cruel methods is not "doing wrong." It is behaving like a MONSTER. Is is SOCIOPATHIC behavior beyond defense IMO and in the opinion of most people with a conscience-- I suspect in your opinion as well. But, let's not mince words. This man is a MONSTER.

[Beausoir]

54. Yes. He is a filthy monster. There are one or two here at DU who excuse his crimes. I do not.

This Vick thing is a filthy non-human and I hope he rots in hell.

[global1]

130. The 'He Did Wrong' Inference Was Intended To Get The Point Across That......

many of these high paid athletes (just like the jocks in high school) think that they can get away with whatever they want because they are "good athletes". My last sentence said that - "maybe the next player that thinks he can do no wrong will think twice."

The intention here is that if Vick is made an example of and never allowed - ever again - to play in the NFL that maybe other athletes that think their sh** don't stink will think twice before breaking the law.

I grew up to athletes that to me where role models.

We've now gone to a world where a Cub pitcher will get a 90 million dollar plus extended contract because he can win games. When these guys make that kind of money - many begin to think that nothing will stop them and they can get away with whatever they want because they are good and the 'team' needs them.

Yes - Vick is a MONSTER. The point was that he should be barred from ever playing the game again in any professional status and that the announcers of this game that I watched were obsessed with him and almost sounded sorry that he was going to be put in jail and not allowed to play. In my humble opinion - they should not even - in any way - acknowledged Vick. Vick should be not considered off limits to even the employees that announce the game. I'm sure that the NFL has that power to do that.

[Reciprocity]

51. Why do you have to make this an either or? Both are reprehensible.

[flying_monkeys]

55. Beating the wife.

I love my critters, but they will never be *equal* to a human life in my eyes...


The NFL only gets upset when these guys taught to be THUGS on a gridiron take the THUG-part off the gridiron (go figure) and give the NFL bad publicity.


(PETA paying member here, so don't jump my butt, but critters are NOT the same as people .... They are special and worthy of good treatment and respect, but I'd rather a dog be mistreated than a woman...)

[Rockholm]

111. A dog gives unconditional love.

[idgiehkt]

56. has there been a decision from the NFL on this?

I don't think he will even be sentenced for 60 days.

[LisaL]

57. Name those players.

Who exactly beat his wife and got away with it? It's very easy to make such a blank accusation and then claim people don't care about beaten wives.

[lastliberalintexas]

118. LOL, you haven't watched football much have you?

I think something along the lines of this article is what the OP had in mind.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/sports/columnists/orl-bianchi0507aug05,0,7785251.column?track=rss

[nini]

119. EXACTLY

thanks for the link.

[TankLV]

59. What a fucking stupid post...

Why don't you ask if we should save a son or a daughter, or a younger or older child, or an aunt or a child?

A fucking ridiculuous post question...

I won't choose...

The current topic of the day was what VIC THE PRICK did - and it was dispicable...

Want to discuss an actual abuse case in particular, we'll be happy to...

All cruelty is disgusting...

On Edit: As you can see - I'm conflicted on this subject - see my post above...

I now see a valid basis for this discussion, but I think the larger of inhumanity as a sickness needs to be addressed - no matter who the victum is...

[Norwood]

63. Some people asked for names so here are a few

These guys have been accused of beating their wife/girlfriend but the charges didn't stick.

Santonio Holmes
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/wire?section=nfl&id=2490900
The charges were dropped...

Michael Strahan
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2015465

Reuben Droughns
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2638191
The charges were dropped...

Warren Moon
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_Moon#Personal_life
*Felicia declined to file charges, and begged prosecutors not to pursue the case. At the trial, she took the blame for the incident that their son had called 911 to report.*

And of course OJ Simpson had a history of violence against women, not to mention that whole double murder thing..

There are probably a few more but these were the ones I dug up.

As far as which is worse, both are equally deplorable and disgusting. A scum bag like Vick who tortured and killed animals for pleasure should never ever play again and should be in fucking jail. The exact same thing goes for the pieces of shit who think its perfectly fine to smack around their wife or girlfriend, they should never play again and should be in fucking jail.

However, I can understand why the Vick case has gotten more press and sympathy. Its not easy for someone who is abused to leave the person abusing them, but the resources are there for them. Its not so for animals as they have no way out and are completely at the mercy of their abusers.

Edited to add my opinion on which is worse

[LisaL]

66. Well, if the charges are dropped, then I am not sure what

people are supposed to do about it. First of all there is presumption of innocence. Are you going to argue that someone is guilty even if the charges are dropped? On the other hand, it is reported that Vick is going to plead guilty.

[Norwood]

69. I wasn't there so I wouldn't know for sure if they were guilty

I'm just thinking where theres smoke theres fire. People requested some examples so I brought a few up.

One player that I completely forgot to mention was Rae Carruth who was convicted of conspiracy to commit murder.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rae_Carruth#Criminal_history

That case received quite a bit of media attention

[Marrah_G]

102. Those players were not charged, nor did they plead guilty, nor were they found guilt

[banana republican]

67. If I try and beat my wife I end up in the hospital

If I try and hurt my cat I end up in the hospital.

P.S. My cat is about 20 pounds; all muscle and has very long teeth....

I wont tell you about SWMBO; I might end up in the hospital.....

[Truthiness Inspector]

71. Both are bad. Vick deserves everything coming to him. n/t

[HardRocker05]

73. why pit them against each other? i see this all the time and it seems like trying to excuse somethin

something by saying, 'well, x is worse.' let the case against the macho, woman-degrading attitude of pro-sports stand on its own merits.

[Bryn]

75. I value animals much more because they cannot defend themselves.

They need our help to protect their rights. Women have a strong law on their side now and can get help. Some women do choose to stay in abusive relationship and it's their choice.

But I do agree with you about one thing: a NFL player or a MLB baseball player, etc. should get kicked out if they abuse their wives as long as wives file reports with proof of abuse.

[Triana]

76. "Does the NFL value dogs over women"

Yes, (most men do) and their image more than both.

[donsu]

107. true

nt

[smiley_glad_hands]

77. The NFL has a new Commish.

Any precedent set by the previous Commish left with him. Goodell is throwing down the gauntlet and focusing on protecting the shield. He has given out multiple suspensions since he's been here for everything you have mentioned.

So, your statements really have no merit.

[Mabus]

85. Let's just be grateful the new commish isn't Condi

'cuz she works with a group of people who think that torturing humans is okay too. Jeez, if Condi was commish Bush would probably be giving Vick a Medal of Freedom or something.

[electron_blue]

78. I agree. This is getting way more press than it ought to. It's illegal, let the system

deal with it. I would much rather see other more far-reaching stories in the media, but that's an old complaint.

[Marrah_G]

79. I think they would kick out a guy who electrocuted a woman after torturing her also.

[Sanctified]

80. Your question is retarded...

it's like asking whats worse drowning your kids in a bathtub or beating your wife. Both are wrong, you can't place a higher moral value on one based upon how you feel about a particular issue.

[zanne]

81. Why the comparison?

Any man who beats dogs or women is a criminal asshole and should be put away. Period.

[philosophie_en_rose]

82. It's not an either-or situation.

The NFL should be harsh towards abusers of any kind. I don't doubt that you care for animals, but I think the "women" v. "dog" implication in the OP is the wrong question. It doesn't matter how harsh or lenient the NFL is in one area, if it's a failure in another. The NFL needs to take a stronger stance against domestic violence, but I wouldn't use the fact that they're doing the right thing to Vicks against the NFL.

The only issue is that it's harder to prove domestic violence than pitting dogs against each other. Since I assume NFL players have attorneys and contracts, the NFL is in an easier position to get rid of Vicks than a more subtle monster.

[underpants]

83. Point #83

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2007/0717072vick17.html

[The Stranger]

84. Why do you pose such bizarre either/or black/white questions?

This doesn't make any sense.

[LibInternationalist]

86. I would argue that they're both absolutely inexcusable

But I absolutely see your point

[mondo joe]

87. I don't follow sports at all, so I don't know this, but: Are there players convicted of beating

their wives who are still playing???

[noamnety]

95. arrested with witnesses is the standard, right?

BOSTON -- Philadelphia Phillies pitcher Brett Myers was arrested Friday and charged with hitting his wife in the face on a street not far from Fenway Park.

Myers, who was scheduled to pitch Saturday against the Red Sox, pleaded not guilty to assault charges at his arraignment Friday in Boston Municipal Court, said David Procopio, a spokesman for the Suffolk County District Attorney's office. Myers' next court date is Aug. 4.

Myers was arguing with his wife shortly after midnight at the corner of Boylston and Dalton streets, Procopio said. The woman and two witnesses told police the 25-year-old pitcher hit her. One witness told investigators Myers also pulled her hair.

"The evidence at this point leads us to believe the victim was struck in the left side of her face," Procopio said. He added that investigators are trying to determine if Myers hit her with a fist or open hand and whether he hit her more than once.

Police responded to a 911 call and found Myers' wife crying with a swollen face, Procopio said. Officers found Myers nearby and arrested him. Myers was booked by Boston police and his wife posted his $200 bail. Procopio did not know how long Myers spent in jail.
------------------------------------------
Multiple witnesses, injuries, 911 calls ... 2 days after his arrest, he was pitching.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2497723

After that: "Kim Myers indicated that she did not want her husband prosecuted, and despite the prosecutor's insistence of filing charges, the case was dismissed."

[mondo joe]

97. I don't know the standard - again, I don't follow sports at all.

But in principle I think similar rules ought to apply - if arrest is enough for suspension, arrest should be enough for suspension.

The one thing I do notice is that your article is about a baseball player and I understand Vick to be a football player, so I don't know if their clubs or leagues or whatever they are have different standards regarding suspension.

[noamnety]

106. Well, there's Michael Pittman

"He spent time in jail three years ago after being indicted on two counts of aggravated assault for intentionally ramming his Hummer into a car carrying his wife, 2-year-old son and the couple's baby sitter. It was the fourth time Pittman had been arrested on domestic-abuse charges, and that doesn't even count the "30 or 40 prior domestic-violence situations" that his wife Melissa told police never were reported."

He was suspended for three games. He plays for Tampa Bay.

Lamar Thomas, of the Dolphins, was arrested and jailed for shoving his pregnant fiancee's head through a window. He didn't get a suspension.

[mondo joe]

112. I'm not sure what your point is. If the league isn't being consistent with their standards,

they should be.

Is someone advocating otherwise?

[burythehatchet]

88. nothing compares to whipping your spouse with a wet poodle.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

89. It Appears This Is Little More Than A False Argument With Little Legitimacy.

Do you have any examples of the NFL not caring about a level of abuse towards women that would equal that seen with these dogs?

I know a few players have been accused of domestic violence in the past, but many or most were acquitted. A post below has 4 players on it and not one was convicted. Furthermore, most of the stories are about a small fight where simple assault might've occurred. Though that's inexcusable in and of itself, I think you'd be hard pressed to claim that a fight in which the spouse pushed the other onto the floor out of anger is equal in severity to the Vick story. That's just a huge stretch.

In my opinion, the story would have to involve a spouse being beaten and bloodied significantly. In that case, I'd absolutely expect the NFL to react. But has such a case occurred? Can you point me to it?

[noamnety]

93. I would add a third thing into the mix

animal abuse, violence against women - and racism.

From the responses here, it's clear some people think the two can't be compared at all - yet another faction definitely thinks abusing an animal is worse than abusing a woman.

For those that are able to make the comparison, I wonder if the comparison is an American football player abusing an animal, or a muslim man beating a woman, what the answer would be. Somehow, I'm guessing the outrage is bumped up a level if they view the abuser as the other. Just a hunch.

And some portion of them would answer differently if the comparison were abusing an animal, or a straight football player jumping a gay guy walking out of a gay bar.

I'm trying to puzzle through the mindset, myself. The logic is that because a woman can leave afterwards, that's not so bad. Does that apply to rape? Or just hitting a woman?

[Catchawave]

94. Abusing animals can lead to abusing humans.....

It's a symptom. Too bad we didn't take GWB blowing up frogs more seriously :cry:

http://www.hsus.org/hsus_field/first_strike_the_connection_between_animal_cruelty_and_human_violence/

[donsu]

108. true

nt

[ChiciB1]

96. Your Question Can't Be Answered With ANY Intelligence IMO... BOTH

are despicable! At least women CAN try to voice any opinion and there ARE places they can turn to for help. The fact that most don't is another matter. I understand why many don't, but animals have been used and abused in far too many ways and it's sickening.

Even my husband who is a HUGE sports fan thinks VICK should go to jail!! This isn't about race or women, this is about INTEGRITY! And for what's worth, I don't even watch any sports anymore because it seems we hear about one scandal after another, and mostly the athletes are given a pass! And most make WAAAAAAAY too much money!

It sure would be nice if that kind of money would be given to helpless animals. Many people buy or take animals when they are cute and cuddly only to turn them out when they grow a little more and they actually have to take care of them! I've seen far too many just dropped off and left to die! To do what he did "on purpose" to make money is beyond MY comprehension and has NOTHING to do with women!

[IndianaJones]

98. depends. is it a white guy beating his wife? nt.

[Marrah_G]

99. I would like the name of a player who pled or was found guilty of abuse and is still playing.

Not "accused but charges dropped" Not "accused but found not guilty"

I would like to know which player is currently playing the game who has been charged, pled guilty or was found guilty of abusing a wife or girlfriend.

I cannot find one.

[slackmaster]

100. Red Herring fallacy

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/red-herring.html

Also Known as: Smoke Screen, Wild Goose Chase.

Description of Red Herring
A Red Herring is a fallacy in which an irrelevant topic is presented in order to divert attention from the original issue. The basic idea is to "win" an argument by leading attention away from the argument and to another topic. This sort of "reasoning" has the following form:


Topic A is under discussion.
Topic B is introduced under the guise of being relevant to topic A (when topic B is actually not relevant to topic A).
Topic A is abandoned.
This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because merely changing the topic of discussion hardly counts as an argument against a claim.

Examples of Red Herring

"We admit that this measure is popular. But we also urge you to note that there are so many bond issues on this ballot that the whole thing is getting ridiculous."

"Argument" for a tax cut:
"You know, I've begun to think that there is some merit in the Republican's tax cut plan. I suggest that you come up with something like it, because If we Democrats are going to survive as a party, we have got to show that we are as tough-minded as the Republicans, since that is what the public wants."


"Argument" for making grad school requirements stricter:
"I think there is great merit in making the requirements stricter for the graduate students. I recommend that you support it, too. After all, we are in a budget crisis and we do not want our salaries affected."...

[dropkickpa]

101. It boils down to money

As in, dog-fighting is a gambling operation (big no-no in professional sports, MBA, NBA, NFL) while wife beating doesn't involve gambling.

If it was a simple case of him beating on dog with no gambling involved, I'd be willing to bet that the NFL wouldn't give two shits.

[Wiregrass Willie]

103. Men who enjoy dog-fights also enjoy roughing up women n/t

[leftyladyfrommo]

104. Actually, they are both awful. Just two separate issues.

I don't get that whole awful mind set.

Real men don't beat the shit out of their wives, their children, or their animals. Only really sick men do that sort of thing.

And I hope he never plays ball again.

[dansolo]

109. The NFL is not letting all the other things slide by.

The NFL policy has gotten a lot more stringent in the past year or so. I think you will find that there is very little tolerance now for what you are complaining about. It is not just about animals. I would think that you would be applauding their recent efforts to clean up the game and the off the field behavior of the players.

[Rockholm]

110. Vick.

[bullwinkle428]

114. Leonard Little KILLED a woman while driving drunk back in 1998,

got arrested for DWI a second time in 2004, and he's still playing in the NFL! :mad:

Unfortunately, just because there's a great deal of inconsistency in the justice system, we shouldn't be giving this guy any kind of free pass just because his victims aren't human beings.

[cgrindley]

116. What's worse, Morton's Fork or Hobson's Choice?

Why do people insist on asking questions entirely formulated out of logical fallacies?

[AngryOldDem]

117. Surrreal moment on ESPN last night

While I was channel surfing I came across a discussion on SportsCenter. Two commentators were seriously concerned whether or not Vick would have a future in the NFL after he got out of jail. Would his arm hold up? Would he still be able to throw? :wtf:

[Virginia Dare]

122. And they wonder how these athletes can be so shallow..

they obviously must feel like pieces of meat. Very well paid meat, but even still, no value on their lives at all outside of athletics.

[ehrnst]

120. Why do we have to choose one? They're both atrocities, and both deserve attention.

I think that you're right - the ones that beat their wives & kids should be brought to court, too.

But someone has to report it and bring charges against the perpetrators. Someone did with Michael Vick, so yes - justice was served. And I am VERY glad. But why do you think that it lessens the value of pursuing violence against women?

I felt similarly at the outrage against the destruction of the Bamian statues, which didn't seem to extend to the women in Afghanistan.

But to feel outrage at any cruelty, I believe, paves the way to seeing and being outraged at other atrocities.

I think that the NFL enables and protects its golden players, and mitigates the consequences of their violent behavior off the field. Perhaps this is the start of them being held accountable.

[SayWhatYo]

121. What's worse, drowning someone or suffocating someone with a pillow?

Oh wait, they are both horrible. I guess that applies to your question too. :D

[hedgehog]

123. You're pointing up the sad fact that we've come to expect and accept a certain

amount of abuse of women from male athletes. It's nothing new, I remember stories about college basketball players abusing their girl friends with impunity back in the early 70's. The Vick case is getting a lot of attention partly because of the novelty. It's not often that the subculture of dog fighting becomes a MSM focus.


Sportswriters made a big deal about how spiking the ball after a touchdown and doing an end zone dance cheapened the game. Too bad they didn't pay attention when making money became the primary goal and value. If a player makes money for the team owners and gives the spectators some thrills, he pretty much has carte blanche to do whatever he wants off the field.

Here's another related question: why is the NBA more concerned about what the players wear to the games than it is about any other aspect of players' lives?

[renie408]

124. What they really hate is the gambling. They can't afford any chance

that somebody will think that a QB could have been gambling on games. The dog fighting is icky, but that alone would have freaked them out so much.

[blues90]

126. It's equaly sick and disgusting , why try to put this in catagories ?

[nini]

127. because the league doesn't seem to address them as so

that was my only point in the OP but the black/white only people on DU totally missed that and went on to make my comments an either/or thing - which it was NOT.

[Hekate]

128. If the NFL has him back they are making it explicit that they are a gang of thugs, okay?

Wife beating, dog fighting, all that hyper-male aggression focused on those who are smaller and weaker -- those are brutal crimes.

But what may bring Vicks down the farthest and make him really unemployable is if he's found to have gambled on the game. Oh dearie me, we can't have that.

Hekate

[eridani]

129. I think part of it is the gambling thing

Pro sports has had more horror over this than just about anything else since the Black Sox scandal. Trumps anything that some of these jacked up testosterone poisoning cases sometimes do to women, dogs, or other men.