New Mom laments the loss of her progressive community

[BridgeTheGap]

The Invisible Mom: A Hidden Crisis in the Progressive Community

By Mik Tulumello

When I was pregnant I had these great visions of what it would be like to be a parent. Bringing the kid to see all of my friends, Halloween pumpkin carving, camping, going to peace rallies with the new community mascot, having an excuse to go to the playground, and generally reliving childhood. Somehow the pictures in my head always involved sunshine and friends.

Well, maybe I was a bit innocent, after all I should have expected some rainy days in Binghamton. But one thing I could not have predicted was those so-called friends fleeing my life like rats from a sinking ship. Granted, I probably should have seen the storm clouds on the horizon when I invited a friend to my baby shower and was told "Why should I get you a present for selfishly adding to the population and contributing to the destruction of the planet?" I debated on asking him just who he thought was going to be changing his biodegradable reusable diapers when he's 85 in some nursing home, but I figured why waste the energy, after all there's a whacko in every bunch.

A couple months later the baby arrived. I was constantly exhausted and sleep deprived, but I still visited people and determinedly hung on to my social and political life. True, I felt a slight twitch developing every time the baby cried and some said "been there done that" or "How can you handle it? It must be so hard."

Then a very strange thing happened. Around November, when she learned to crawl and yank things off of shelves, I ceased to exist. People stopped calling me and when I called them they were Very Busy With Work.

Funny how life keeps going on even when you don't exist. Once in the center of my activist crowd, I now only kept in touch with a few friends. One, (strangely enough an apolitical former republican), is my most regular visitor, in spite of the fact that she probably has trouble getting up the gas money to get here, and her car breaks down regularly. Last time she and her boyfriend showed up, they brought a used sandbox and some play sand for my daughter. She loves it and I love them.

I did keep up my political work in the form of painting a mural with students in a poor community. (I received a very small grant to do it- not nearly enough to afford to pay for my childcare, not to mention my own time) So I had to figure out how to deal with the child care issue while I did this. Guess who came to the rescue? The apolitical former republican and one other apolitical working class friend did the lion's share of the volunteer child care. Only one person in the progressive community helped out and due to her work schedule that was only once or twice.

I still go out to events but the frequency is less and less. After all, why go out when there are no other kids (their moms were probably already driven away) and your partner is the one who plays the music? It gets boring being invisible in public anyway, and the people I formerly felt such a sense of solidarity with, when by some trick of the light they do see me, appear pretty uncomfortable and embarrassed and tend to stammer on about how busy they have been. After all I am a mom with a toddler who they haven't seen for a year. Translation- Awkward Social Situation, (or A.S.S. for those who do a lot of abbreviating)

So what, you might ask, does this have to do with politics? In reply I would have to ask you, would this have happened to me if I was a right-wing fundamentalist? The answer is a resounding NO. I would probably be hanging out with the church folks, baby in the care of a group of bubbly Teenagers for Jesus, while I chatted with other moms and stuffed envelopes for Franklin Graham events. There would be round after round of backyard barbeques and bible study groups. I would be willing to bet I would be feeling more, and not less, accepted and central to the community then I did before I had the baby.

I will now make a prediction. As long as it manages to continue to avoid being family friendly, the progressive community will always be a fringe group. Because this community is not willing to create a welcoming space for, and invest hands on time in families, there will be very few kids growing up with progressive traditions of activism in their households. Parents will have no time to be activists, and their kids won't get to be around a community where they see that as a valid role they can play. We might help win the next election, but we won't win the hearts and minds of the young.

The other day a gay friend asked me if we were going to the peace picnic. I said no, because their would be no other moms with kids there and my partner is an organizer and he's playing music. The end result is that I would be invisible and alone frantically trying to keep my kid from yanking things off of peoples plates and crawling under tables, so why not just go to the playground instead? for practical purposes I was going to be alone in either situation, and so I preferred the environment where I could at least enjoy my child.

"That doesn't sound like fun," she said. "I'll ask the Pride Families Coalition if they are going and get back to you." The gay community gets it. Why don't we? They don't take families for granted because they have had to work so hard for the right to have and keep them. They have figured out the lesson that every child is a community treasure and an investment in the future.

Bottom line, if the progressive community wants to be around in twenty years the bulk of its membership has to stop viewing kids as a greenhouse gas-spewing problem, and start viewing them as the generation that is going to need the tools and the education to clean up our generation's socioeconomic, environmental and political mess if it wants to survive. We can't just degenerate into a bunch of misanthropic, workaholic curmudgeons whose best hope for the future is that everyone gets some superplague and dies. It's creepy and people don't get it.

For those of you who are now squirming with shame over the way you have treated myself or some other mom like me, it could be too late to win our friendship back,(and believe me if you ever do have a kid you will come groveling back begging us for playdates), but on the positive side here are some things you can do as an individual to get your community back on track:

Spend time with a mom or dad and get to know their kid. It might not suck. You might figure out that kids are interesting, easily amused little beings that like to learn new tricks and - bonus - you get to play in the park and no one will think you are a dork. When was the last time YOU got to go trick or treating anyway?
Make sure the political events you help organize are kid friendly. Connect parents with each other before hand, and recruit people to help with childcare if possible so the parents can participate.
Help out-The effort it takes is minor but it can make someone's day. This should seem pretty obvious but in reality most of the "help" people give moms is in the form of criticism. The other day I was at the farmer's market trying to get my veggies and my kid was continuously escaping my clutches and making a beeline for the road. Some woman (I believe I have seen her at teachers for peace) yelled at me for letting the kid go in the road and told me I better hold her hand. If you ever tried to collect vegetables with one hand and hold a struggling child who wants to run with the other you will know this is a nearly impossible task requiring superhuman strength. Yelling is not the kind of help I can use. The kind of help I CAN use is for the person to spare the criticism and offer to either grab the veggies or hold the kid.
Invite yourself over. Parents understandably prefer not to go to your house because they know that if their kid has a run in with your computer or your depression-era glass collection, you will hate them, and chasing a kid around a non-child-friendly house is torture, and anyway, our curfew is 8pm. So invite yourself over. You can stay until after we put the kid to bed. We will love the adult company and if you bring enough beer, we'll even teach you the latest songs from sesame street.
Introduce your friends with kids to each other whenever possible so they can get some much needed support from each other.
If you are hosting a baby or young child at your place, there are a few things you can do to make a pleasant experience possible for everyone. Do your best to get the obviously dangerous and expensive things out of reach. Schedule dinner early, and try and have whole milk in your fridge. I have also been to several dinners where my kid has had nothing to eat because the crunchy vegetable tempeh stirfry was inedible for someone with no molars. Effort is not required here. Spaghetti with sauce on the side is a good choice. After all, that kid is your guest too, and you wouldn't serve a vegetarian a steak would you?
Before you lose your patience with the crying and the antics, remember that you were a kid once and people put up with you, so you actually do owe these critters some tolerance.

And if, even after reading this you do find yourself saying, "Well of course we don't see her, she never comes to any meetings, if she doesn't care about the issues why should we care about her?" Try remembering that every time you see my partner coming to meetings and parties that's MY sacrifice. I'm the one home with the kid. It is because of me he has the time to do the things he does. I'm the invisible mom in the room.

For those of you that do not have kids, never lose sight of the fact that these little people are the future and when you ignore them they are getting their education from somewhere else, like TV commercials or that nice fundamentalist family down the street. It IS actually up to you whether or not they grow up with the right values. It does take a village to raise a child, so maybe you should have the strategic sense to make sure it's your village.

peace,

Mik
[e-mail]

[AspenRose]

1. Oh, boy.....

....have you been around long enough to witness any of the "breastfeeding," "toddler-on-airplane," "toddler-in-restaurant," or "breastfeeding-toddler-on-airplane-or-in-restaurant" threads here?

Some also forget that there are progressives who homeschool their children....

Get ready to have the term "breeder" thrown at you a few times.....:hide:

(Sad but true)

--An empathetic (and very pregnant) Deserted Rose

[Katherine Brengle]

6. Congratulations --

and ditto on the flamesuit recommendation lol.

[Maine-ah]

142. DR, congrats on the prego!

woo-hoo, we get to welcome another Dem into the world! :woohoo:

OP,
Beautiful post!

- Sincerely,
New Mom of BB Maine-ah, she'll be 10 months Sept 9 :)
I K&R for you!

[gratuitous]

2. Dear Ms. Tulumello

This is going to come as a shock to you, I know. Please sit down, make yourself a nice cup of tea and steel yourself: The world doesn't revolve around you, and it doesn't revolve around your kid.

Many of the activities you formerly enjoyed so much didn't include children, did they? Political get-togethers, fundraisers and discussion groups don't usually include a round of "Duck, duck, goose" or 15 minutes of peek-a-boo in the middle of the session. That might tip you off that having a baby was going to change your life in many ways.

Second, before you had your child, how often did you step up and volunteer to take a harried parent's child for an afternoon? There's an old saying about going around and coming around that suggests itself to me.

Next, how many folks in your circle of friends have children of the same or nearly the same age as you, or are they all childless? Reflect back on your own days pre-baby, and ask yourself honestly how many new mothers and fathers you kept in touch with. Did you strongly advocate for on-site child care for your activities before you had a child of your own?

The bottom line is that your life has changed dramatically. You're not just Ms. Tulumello, same as you ever were, just with a child added. You're now a parent, and your first priority in any situation is that baby. Someone else will take up your duties at the Young Progressives meetings if you can't be there, and that's okay. There really are plenty of opportunities available for parents who want to remain active in adult things, and instead of whining about how it isn't as it used to be, you could be making a difference. What are you doing about it.

[Mojorabbit]

8. Perhaps it is location

One of our code pink members just had her second child. We all help look after the youngsters during protests and meetings. The youngssters are included. To the author of the piece: As someone who unsuccesfully tried to have a child, I say be grateful for what you have and quit whining.

Edited to add. Perhaps you could tell your husband to let someone else do the music for a change and he can stay home with the toddler while you go out to do work that is important to you.

[annabanana]

9. I was a new mother once.. and I know this level headed post

will not register with new mothers. New mothers just aren't wired to "get outside" themselves and their new charge.. (Probably some left-over "survival of the species" thing). For the most determined and fervently activist, it wears off quickly and translates well into radical new-mothers play dates.

And when a new mothers internalize how much change matters for the future of their progeny, well. . look out sister!

[RainDog]

20. bull

when I was a new mother I was studying two languages. My child would lie on the floor next to me while I listened to recordings...he heard them too. He's very good with languages, btw.

when I had my second child, I was writing (an award-winning) thesis. I took him to lectures in a front pack when he was a month old and he slept the entire time while I stood and listened. this was a small group and it was okay with the professor (I cleared it ahead of time.) If he had been fussy, I would have left, but he wasn't.

Oh, and that professor came to my house, sat on my bathroom sink and talked to me about my work while I bathed my child. The issue is how people in a society respect or detest mothers. Mothers hibernate because they are suddenly pariahs...and this is a sickness in a society.

another woman I knew was a professor and after her child was born, she gave lectures with her child in a front pack. the child slept. she and I both breastfed our children, too... again, the problem is society, not some "genetic" necessity.

[Mojorabbit]

22. But your post says the opposite

You say it is society but your attitude let you have the best of both worlds.
You used the front pack and went out. The op says her child is pulling things off shelves and grabbing things. Pack a bunch of toys to keep the child entertained and go. You did not self limit yourself but this mother is letting her husband participate while she remains sidelined. This is her decision. She could do as you did or start a coop babysitting group for other progressive young mothers.

[RainDog]

24. my response

was to the post that said mothers' brains turn to jelly and they don't want to do anything like think about anything other than baby poop.

I happened to live in a very supportive and child-friendly community when I was doing those things...and my (now ex, long story) husband was was supportive and had the pov off someone who grew up in an environment where children and their needs were a part of life, not some isolated freakish hell hole of something called parenthood. if I had not had these advantages, it would have been much harder.

however, I NEEDED the outside stimulation when my children were younger. that was a great motivator for me. sounds like the person who originally posted about her situation is the same. Yes, she needs to create networks... co-op, barter services, pay, whatever. Sometimes the child stays at home. that's okay too.

[lildreamer316]

13. Republicans make room for children and mothers in THEIR meetings.

....and then, that's how you create more Republicans. A whole army of them.
Ones who say, "but I was raised this way! How can it be wrong?" & etc. Oh, and then their minds are just SO easily changed when they are adults. :eyes:

The author pretty much admits she did not have sympathy before-hand. Why are you attacking her again; after she has encouraged others NOT to do what you are accusing her of doing? Can't change the past. She's trying to do her best now. Are you trying your best in every single area of YOUR life? Glass houses and stones. Way to be judgmental. Circular firing squad, anyone?

Have a little compassion and understanding. I thought that's what we progressives and liberals are about. Maybe I am wrong?

[RainDog]

15. so funny

your post demonstrates a great problem for many in this nation who consider themselves so... enlightened.

Other parts of the world, for which you probably spout words of compassion, or maybe not, who knows, incorporate mothers, children, families, into their worlds. (It takes a village isn't just a slogan for anyone who has ever had a child or lived in an extended and close family/friend environment.)

Maybe part of the problem is the real lack of support for families in the U.S. govt... European (especially northen european) nations in which I have spent more than a little time, or where I have relatives, are much more child friendly. Maybe your attitude is just the "liberal" flipside of the all talk no substance "compassionate conversatism."

You are part of the problem in this society.

I seriously doubt you have ever had a child or cared for an elderly parent. That's your loss. As is your attitude.

Emma Goldman said she didn't want the revolution if she couldn't dance. Well, many of us don't want your form of "progressivism" if parents become second class citizens and children are pariahs.

[bread_and_roses]

124. We are indeed a child-hating culture, taking our cues from rigid, authoritarian traditions like

the English and German. Some on this site, with their talk of "breeders" and "brats" sound to me as if they actively hate children. And many just buy into the Puritanical school of child-rearing - beat them when they are young so they'll be "seen and not heard" Talking of a one-year old "behaving" as if that were a reasonable demand. A one-year old is still an infant.

I had my own child 20+ years ago and even then people were scowling and grumbling if she was the slightest bit noisy - in a McDonalds. I mean banging on the try and warbling loudly noisy, not incessant crying noisy. (And yes, I most certainly did remove myself and child if something triggered crying that lasted more than a few minutes. First of all because that sort of crying with very young children indicates that they are in some sort of distress, which ought to be attended to, and secondly because humans are programmed to find the sound of an infant or small child crying unendurable and I did not want to subject others to it).

I personally, do not enjoy the company of young children for more than a few minutes, although I believe that the welfare of children is the first order of business for any civilized society. Not enjoying children is a character flaw over which I have no control. What I do have control over is translating my own idiosyncrasy into a general demand that children disappear from any environment that I choose to inhabit.

But I honestly don't think the problem is in any way with the Progressive community. In virtually every way, we are not set up as a culture to incorporate children. People are over-worked, families and mothers in general have no support, which, I think, is why so many in the activist community these days seem to be older women with grown children.

I too think that child-care should be routinely available and that the lack of it keeps many young parents from contributing in ways they'd like to - and ways that we desperately need. Several groups I've been involved with over the years have attempted to do this - but it always fell apart. Some meetings we had care, and no children. Some meetings we had children, but it was one of the nights that the arranged care-giver fell through. We would have liked to work it as a cooperative, but there were not enough mothers of young children involved. The teen-age children of some of the members were involved in so many activities and studies that they weren't available. It's a dilemma of the extreme nuclear-ization of the family in this society; a construct that I consider among the worst ever evolved for families and children.

I remember telling a good friend, when my daughter was young, of the impossibility of taking an active small child anywhere. She had spent many years on a Greek island, and spoke of how the entire village - kids and all - would go down to the tavern in the evening. The kids would run around, the adults would talk over and around them. No one thought anything of it. Try that here.

Some, who have had good experiences with small children in groups of adults were lucky enough to have children who were by nature on the less-active end of the scale. And some, no doubt, were simply exceptionally good, able parents. I can count myself in neither group, and found any sort of activism when my child was small quite impossible.

[Maine-ah]

145. I wish I could nominate a single post!

:woohoo:

[woodsprite]

3. I absolutely love this article, and it's sooooo true.

I'm sure my SIL (and inlaws in general) leaned more progressive early on in our marriage. They attended a progressive presby church. Then my SIL and her hubby started having kids. She didn't stop until she reached 5, and she took MAJOR snide comments regarding the size of that family from people in our community, even from the older ladies at the church.

She and my inlaws left the church and went 'church shopping' - not really caring about the denomination, they just wanted to feel welcome. Well, they felt most welcome at a fundie, non-denominational church that has tons of kids and large families. She is a stay-at-home mom and she's always looking for outings for her kids. She gravitates to the church families because that is what she knows and feels comfortable with. I've invited her to our church (another progressive Presby one), but we're small and don't have alot of different kids - mainly older couples. Needless to say, we don't socialize much, although I still think there is some progressive ideas left in her, but expressing them in her current environment is not accepted.

[bunkerbuster1]

4. more truth to this account than I like to admit

I don't know that our circle o' commies here in Metro 'Lanta is as kid-unfriendly as the OP's, but I can think of a fair number of events that could've been made more family-friendly than they were.

Anyway, a kick and a recommendation, and I hope it gives everyone a chance to think a bit (and, hopefully, not get all defensive.)

[RubyDuby in GA]

37. Hey bunkerbuster1 - I kind of addressed this in my post below

I will say as someone who is at the very young toddler stage now with my little one - we're the vast minority in the Atlanta progressive community. We tend to be the only ones with children or if there are other parents there, their kids are grown. Our core group of progressive friends welcomed Carter with open arms and consider themselves to be his liberal aunties. Of course, they said they'll take over for us when he reaches his teen years, but it's an offer...

:)

I'm all for more kid-friendly events.
Besides, having the kid can come in handy. At the John Edwards event, Small Change for Big Change in downtown Atlanta last month, Carter was playing in the front before Edwards came out on stage. A woman I recognized, but couldn't place actually got down on the floor and played with Carter! Turns out it was Marie Barnes, former First Lady of Georgia, and she thought Carter was so cute that she dragged me and him over to meet Elizabeth Edwards, who thought he was pretty darned cute too!

[bunkerbuster1]

84. Yeah, it's been a little difficult incorporating the Littlest Commie in our activism...

and to be honest, our participation has declined somewhat as a result of being parents, but some of that's due to laziness/inertia.

But I'm glad my 7-year-old, for example, got to hear Hank Johnson speak back when he was still seeking the Dem nomination. It's not that kids are unwelcome at local events here in GA, it's just that they don't seem to go out of their way to have stuff for them to do.

Where I think the OP hits home is in contrasting this with what the conservo-Christo-fascists routinely provide in support of parents.

[Katherine Brengle]

5. Bravo - great post!

You've described exactly my experience as a progressive/liberal mother of a young child.

[AspenRose]

7. We need to stick together.

If for no other reason than to maintain sanity. :hug: Not one day goes by that I don't look at my 2.5 year old son and wonder what life will be like for him....and ask myself, "what can I do....to make the world a better place, not just for him, but for everyone....children, adults, everyone?"

I am so frightened for his future....I really am.

[Katherine Brengle]

21. I hear that --

my daughter turned 3 in April. I find myself becoming more and more radical in my views the older she gets, the closer she gets to being out in the world on her own.

[mudesi]

10. Having a child is a life changing experience

I don't know where this woman got the perception that things were going to be the same once her child was born. She seems to think that her friends are required to help with bringing up her child. They're not.

[LibInternationalist]

11. Of course they're not *required* to help.

But aren't they bad friends for not helping?

(Edited to make my position more clear)

[madmom]

23. NO....maybe they're not helping for a reason, maybe they are not

comfortable around kids, maybe they don't like kids, speaking as a mother and a grandmother I would not want people around mine if they somehow felt obligated to help, if they don't want to they will not be for lack of a better word "gracious" with the kids.

[LibInternationalist]

33. If they don't feel comfortable around kids

There are other ways to help - true friends don't abandon you when you go through difficult times.

[madmom]

46. and it's just possible she's looking in the wrong place, there are kid

friendly groups out there, but does she want to bring her kids the the "adult" playground, believe it or not there are some places kids just do not belong, she has to adjust her life accordingly not the other way around.

[indie_voter]

49. I agree. But I read this post almost as a cry for help

For some it's overwhelming and hard to know where to start. I felt especially badly when I read this part:

so why not just go to the playground instead? for practical purposes I was going to be alone in either situation

This to me speaks to her isolation. One doesn't have to be alone at the playground, of course, the main focus is the child, making sure they aren't going where they shouldn't. Especially with toddlers. But it helps to have a playgroup of parents, so everyone is watching the kids, and even if you can't have uninterrupted adult conversation, you can sneak in a few bits of conversation here in and there.

I hope the OP seeks out some playgroups in her area. Perhaps finds a co-op preschool, or an on-line mom group with a progressive bent, where she can then find families in her area.

That said, I agree with you, it's the people with kids who need to adjust not expect child-free people change their lives. I also think it's important to remember, this isn't a static situation, her child will grow, and it will get easier.

[lildreamer316]

14. If you are a community, then you are a community.

I thought help when it was needed was part of the description of what 'community' is all about.

You can't half-ass life. Either participate fully, or get out of the way of those who will.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

18. It takes a village to raise a child...

Something I actually agree with Hillary on.

[bobbolink]

70. bwahahahaha!

right on cue...

[Pastiche423]

103. Your post makes so much sense to me

that I truly do not understand many of the other comments here.

The two thing I heard before I gave birth to my daughter were:

1) Your life will never be the same.

2) Get as much sleep as you can now, because after the baby is born, you won't have that luxury.

For cripe's sake! The woman choose to have a child. No one else forced her to. Why should anyone else bear the responsibility of raising her child?

I call bullshit on the OP.

[PassingFair]

125. I'm crying along with you.

My youngest daughter cried herself to sleep one night
because she couldn't wear a "Teens for Dean" T-shirt
because she was 10!

Her shirt said "Kids for Dean" and "It didn't RHYME!".

My girls have always come along with me when they wanted to
attend local protests and dem meetings. They have always been
treated lovingly by "progressives"! I have met some of my
best friends at meet-ups, and my children have become friends
with their children.

The article in the OP sounds like a very typical
isolated young mother's lament. I've heard the same
complaint about former friends and business colleagues
dropping away once a child comes along.

SNORE.....

Sounds like someone feels tied down.....

[mod mom]

12. Stick with it. My kids now 9 and 11 have been attending anti war rallies since

before bu$h's war began. They've been involved in rallies/marchs over of the election theft as well. They are both very informed and empathetic towards others less fortunate. You're correct that us mothers must raise a new generation to carry on the work of social justice and peace. It gets easier (although I heard a lot of complaining about crowds/tiredness when we marched in DC in '05) as they get older .

ps don't post your email-ask that folks pm you.

[fasttense]

16. You think you're invisible as a progressive woman with toddlers

just wait until you go through menopause. It gets even worse. But cheer up, once you turn 100 years old, I understand everyone wants to interview you for the evening news.

[DemBones DemBones]

62. Good point. Just wait until

we're 100, though! Then we can kick ass again!

[robinlynne]

17. That really sounds like some ....shit to me. My mother worked full time, raised

kids and took us to marches in washington against the vietnam war. My friends with children did the same. Their lives changed; that's for sure. And when you have small babies, obviously you spend time with other mothers of small babies. After they grow up a bit it is entirely up to YOU to get back out into the world, not up to the world to come to you. I spend lots and lots of time with my friends' children. They are a part of us. But then their moms did not try to get the rest of the world to talk about diapers. They participate in the world. We are all part of one world. If you are frustrated and feeling alone, think about what you can do. I remember asking my mother how she could possibly do it all, working long hours, taking care of me. Her reply. It was simple. We put you in a basket and took you with us. She didn't stop participating in the world, or rely on others to care for us. I really think you need to relook at your problem from a different angle.

[Katherine Brengle]

19. It's not the 60s anymore.

Young people aren't as engaged, and family life isn't as revered as it used to be (not that that's necessarily a bad thing, I haven't made up my mind on that yet).

The outside world is very child un-friendly in general.

[OzarkDem]

59. It was ok in the 90's and 00's

I stayed active in politics, worked on campaigns, etc. all through the 90's til the present day, even when my children were in diapers. There were lots of kids involved with politically active parents, including candidates on the campaign trail. My children are in college now, but like others politically active Dem parents, we all recognize each others children and enjoy having watched them grow up.

All you have to do is choose the events and times when its appropriate to bring the kids along and get a babysitter when it isn't. Its not rocket science.

[DemBones DemBones]

157. I don't think "The outside world is very child un-friendly" at all.

Most people still like babies and kids of all ages. What nobody likes is kids who are running wild or screaming.

Everyone who's raised children knows kids do those things but we don't want to be around them when they're doing them. We've paid our dues as parents, today's parents need to do the same.

I taught Montessori school, middle school, high school, and college, besides being a mother, and I would still grab a runaway child that was about to get in the street or help any child who needed it. I will also tell kids who are misbehaving to stop it. But the parents should be doing that, not relying on others to do it for them.

I will happily hold toddlers and read to them and play with them. But if they start screaming, I expect the parent(s) to do something to settle them down. That's what I had to do with mine.

[Gormy Cuss]

25. The article should be titled "Poor me."

I could address her essay point by point but what struck is that her partner, presumably someone with equal child rearing responsibility, has lots of time to continue his involvement (organizing, playing music at events)because she's the default caregiver. She on the other hand can be involved only if she finds a babysitter or brings her daughter along. Hmmm. Doesn't sound very progressive to me.

[RB TexLa]

30. You forgot a few mes, sounds like me is this person's favorite word

[bobbolink]

77. Keep sneering....

Then we'll watch for your posts complaining how progressives aren't as active as fundies.

:crazy:

[Gormy Cuss]

121. Sorry, I have no idea what you're referencing.

Do you mean that the essay author will make that complaint?

[bobbolink]

138. I think it's clear what I'm referencing.... YOUR sneering.

Looking down your nose at someone who needs community; to be welcomed.

In my day we called your response "Lefter than thou".

It's not even much disguised.

[Gormy Cuss]

139. Thank you for clarifying.

Nothing in my response mentioned "fundies" and I still don't understand what that meant, but I wasn't looking down my nose at the OP although I was objecting to her seeming to charge the community with all of the responsibility for assisting her participation rather than tasking her own partner with the same.
How that is "lefter than thou" I don't know, but since you are making that charge it seemed to me and some other posters that the tone of essay was sneering at the progressives in her community with goading examples like the "whacko" progressive who chided her for adding to the population in apposition to the former Republican friend who brought the sandbox and babysat.

The author has weighed in on those comments in this thread and has clarified her intent.

[bobbolink]

140. Yes, you are INDEED looking down your nose and judging someone else.

"although I was objecting to her seeming to charge the community with all of the responsibility for assisting her participation rather than tasking her own partner with the same. "

It has become trendy to judge ANYONE who has needs... I guess this is thanks to the growth of libertarianism: social darwinism. If you can't do it all alone, then you don't deserve to make it.

What the author did is pinpoint a very important aspect that needs to be HEARD. If you want more people to participate, then you make it easier for them to do so. What is so hard to comprehend about that?

I hear so many complaints on DU about how people "don't care", "are apathetic", "don't participate", and here is one really good idea of how we can change a part of that, and what happens? Attack the messenger.

What companies know is that for each person who speaks up to complain, there are hundreds more who are thinking the same thing. The wise CEO LISTENS to the complaints, and improves the company. We would do well to take a lesson from that. LISTEN when people say why they aren't participating, instead of just ragging on them for being absent. What a concept! I am stunned at the defensive posture that arises, and wonder what is going on behind that.

Back in my dirtyhippiecommiepinkobum days, when we were protesting racism, sexism, and the Vietnam war, almost all the events had childcare available for those who needed it. We saw the issue, and we did something about it, instead of dismissing it as a personal problem. Many times it was mens groups that took turns providing the child care.

Rather than blaming the victim and shooting the messenger, wouldn't it be more productive to look at the issue that is being raised, and DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT?????

But, I guess, looking down your nose and judging others is much more elevating.

[Gormy Cuss]

141. I don't think that you are hearing me.

I never implied that she or anyone else needs to take care of her needs alone. Far from it.
If you think that what I wrote was sneering then how would you characterize your own replies?

[AlCzervik]

26. Maybe people just don't like her.

there are plenty of us in "the progressive community" that have children and still manage to be politcally active.

[blondeatlast]

41. You betcha. Why doesn't Mr. Gap take the kid occasionally? That's how

Ms. Atlast maintained her social/political life.

[AlCzervik]

47. i guess her so is "Unfriendly to families".

you know what gets me is when people say it's "Everybody else but me" which means really that no it's you.

[Midlodemocrat]

27. Utter bullshit. If she comes across IRL as sanctimonious as she does here,

it's no wonder people avoid her. I sure would.

[AlCzervik]

28. Ding Ding Ding!

[jpgray]

40. You rule!

:D

[blondeatlast]

42. Indeed. nt

[REP]

150. Amen

But mybe you're just brainwashed by your lack of support and people not stocking their refrigerators with specific foods for your kids ...

[Marrah_G]

29. Wow, I wish I could just hug you!

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

31. I stopped at that "evil leftist environmentalist" reaction. That didn't happen. -nt

[Dora]

44. Something like that happend to me, here.

It was very sad.

[RubyDuby in GA]

32. As a mommy of a 14 month old who was once the center of all things political

I totally agree with every single thing this woman just wrote, with a couple of exceptions for us.
I'm the youngest in my group of Liberal Ladies Who Lunch (a fantastic group of women who all met through various political activism). The rest of the group was actually quite thrilled that someone had decided to breed because that meant a new little liberal.

We take our son everywhere with us (Tipper Gore rubbed my belly when I was huge with Carter and he's already met John and Elizabeth Edwards and his namesake - President Jimmy Carter and Rosalyn, who I swear tried to steal him from me!)

They are very accomodating of us, but it's true that we can't go to things anymore without having to ask if the location is baby friendly or if it's ok to bring a little one. We've had to scale back on some of the activities we used to do because he can't come with us, but we stay as active as possible.

I'm Chair of my local party, a Congressional District Vice Chair for my state party and a district director for another political group. We do want our son to grow up and realize the importance of being active for causes you believe in.

[Warpy]

35. It sounds like you got the point that the OP missed

and that is that some things are simply not appropriate for children. Oh, babies are easy, just slip them into the Snugli and let them sleep through it(you hope). Toddlers are a whole different story, though, since they're into everything and object loudly when they're restrained from it.

The OP also mischaracterized those right wing and churchy political gatherings. Yes, they're child friendly. However, from what I've seen, the kids are cared for by one group of ladies and the food is provided by the rest of the ladies and only the men are allowed to discuss political things and plan strategies.

Face it, when you have infants and toddlers to care for, your job in the world has changed until they're old enough to behave in adult situations.

[BlooInBloo]

34. Seems plausible this is the vector sum of a variety of forces, most already mentioned.

[blondeatlast]

36. Perhaps Mr. Gap could handle some of the child attending duties so you could go out?

Gosh, you never lost "progressive" friends over other issues before? What a lovely, pristine life you must have! I want one of those too.

Here's your answer, sweetie--call me if you are in town and we'll commiserate together. I'm a mom who went through the same thing--so I found progressive friends who had children--in a very, very red area.

[indie_voter]

38. Life with kids..

I have two kids, 5 and 7, I had them in my mid-late 30s, most of our friends decided to remain child-free. Once the babies came, it was difficult for awhile.

Not everyone knows how or wants to deal with babies. Heck, I wasn't good at it (still don't think I am though I understand toddlers better now! LOL), but with mine it was different. My friends came by, but not often. I was also preoccupied, getting to know the new people in my life. Priorities change, and that is okay, it's life.

It does get easier, as the children get older. it's easier to reconnect with childless friends, my kids know not to climb all over their stuff, and it is easier for our childless friends to interact with them.

One thing which helped me was on-line mothering groups. There are people out there who share similar political beliefs and parental styles, it helped to talk with them. Also, I'm not sure how old your child is? My kids went to a co-op preschool, there I met some very good friends. One who I now count as one of my dearest friends.

I know it's hard, and I know the sense of loss I felt watching my friends move onward. I felt like I was moving through molasses at times, that I was losing them. But I wasn't. I would just suggest not closing the lines of communication with good child free friends. Invite them over to your house, talk about what you used to, introduce your child to them, them to your child, but understand as with any new relationship, it takes time for everyone to adjust.

Just as it does for a child to adjust to a sibling, it doesn't happen over night, but with patience and love, it will.

And in the meantime, by expanding your horizons, searching for simpatico playgroups, perhaps co-op preschools,etc, you'll meet new friends for both you and your child, and in the process create more bonds which will last a lifetime!

Best of luck and if ever you need a friendly ear, please pm me. Raising children is a wonderful experience, but certainly not easy by any means!

[RubyDuby in GA]

39. Our problem is we can't find other progressive familes with small children

We truly want to be part of a progressive community that values children and wants to pass along our values to them, but we're the only "breeders" in our circle.

:shrug:

[indie_voter]

48. We were too

Mine are now 5 and 7. Granted, I'm in a very liberal area, so I know it was easier for me.

At first I tried the attachment parenting play group in the area, but the chemistry didn't work for us. Then I choose a co-op preschool for my son, and in retrospect it was one of the best things I could have done.

I'm one of those people who was never drawn to kids, never knew what to do around them. A co-op scared me, the first few months was torture. Then without realizing it, I found friends, I learned a lot about little children. I may never be a natural earth mother, but I think I've learned many skills I never otherwise would have.

There were many people at the co-op who shared my political beliefs, shared my parenting style. I no longer felt so isolated. Oddly enough, I also think this helped me reach out to my child-free friends. The dynamics of our relationships had changed, no longer was it my husband and me, we had 2 new people with us. Meantime the group dynamic of my child free friends hadn't changed. Once I understood that the kids hadn't just changed my life, but it affected the group, I was able to bridge the distances. It will never be the way it was, but that doesn't mean worse, it just different, but we all love each other as much as we ever did.

Best of luck with everything!

[RubyDuby in GA]

53. Thanks for the tip. This is definitely something worth looking into in the near future

:)

[ulysses]

76. we still *really* need to get together.

:hi:

[indie_voter]

128. You're very welcome. Best wishes ! :) nt

[madmom]

43. The first thing I thought of when I read this is the way I was treated by mothers

Several years ago (probably 10 or so) I volunteered to be a Brownie Girl Scout leader for our local school, not because my daughter was one she was already a senior girl scout, but because with out me there would be no brownies for these girls. Well enrollment was a huge success, I had 22 girls (1st,2nd,& 3rd graders)the only help I had was my daughter and 2 of her high school friends, which was really against the rules because there was suppose to be 1 adult for every 5-6 girls, my helpers were under 18 so they didn't qualify.I sent a letter home with the girls begging for help or we would have to dissolve our troop. I got 2-3 moms who could help "occasionally" but not all the times they had "other things they had to do" After a year and a half of begging and fighting off the higher ups who were demanding compliance, I said enough was enough and sent a letter home saying there would no longer be a brownie troop.Did I get a thanks for trying or anything remotely close to that? Hell NO I got called on the carpet because we didn't keep fighting after all if I "really" wanted to do it I could have, I also got accused of taking their money. When I decided we couldn't do it any more we all (the girls and I) decided to take all the money and after badges and awards where bought, have one hell of a final outing together, and we did! I got called up before council and had to show where every penny went because some of the mothers didn't believe my books, so in other words they were willing to fight to keep their cheap babysitter (dues were 50 cents a week for a 2 hour meeting). So to all these mothers I says THANKS for all you're support ( I hope I don't need a sarcasm smilie here) I almost forgot I even had 1 mother who continually forgot her daughter I kept taking her home with me(which was also against the rules) and calling her to come and get her daughter at my house.So just because people aren't falling all over themselves trying to help you don't accuse them of being bad people!!!:rant:

[blondeatlast]

45. Perhaps Mr. Gap would benefit by reading this. I flat out told Mr. atLast

that I needed to see my friends sans WeeatLast occasionally and damn if he, raised in an EXTREMELY patriarchal culture with a very overbearing father who actually beat his wife in front of the kids, said...

"Absolutely. I encourage you to go out and I'd love to spend some time with my son..."

See, he didn't enjoy his patriarchal, violent upbringing one little bit.

[groovedaddy]

50. That distinction between the responsibility of the community

and that of the individual.
I've got to believe there are progressive people out there who don't mind having children, toddlers, even infants around.

Have you seen the film - "Idiocracy?" Could this really happen - that the educated/intelectual types lose interest in propagating the race - but the rednecks/ lumpen proletariat will procreate till the cows come home? Will this "water down" the gene pool? I hope that's not what we have in store for us.

[DemBones DemBones]

56. It's already happened. The only people I know

who are in my age group (older baby boomers) and have as many, or more, children as their parents did are conservatives. Some are educated but none are intellectual.

Progressives in the U.S. have long believed that it was irresponsible to have many children, knowing the resources consumed by Americans. Conservatives don't see it that way and have as many children as they want to.

[BridgeTheGap]

51. Response from Mik - author

First I would like to thank everyone for their positive responses. It was pretty hard to put myself out there like that and be honest about my experiences.

Actually-This post is the result of a month long conversation with my partner about this problem and a decision to do something about it for all of the moms out there that are experiencing this. I do not have some sort of power problem in my relationship as some of you imply later in your posts. My partner goes to the events because he is a better organizer than I am (my strengths lie in art and writing not organizing) and I want these events to succeed. It's not a cry for attention or I would have written it in the dead of winter when I really was lonely. I have enough friends, most of them just aren't people from the progressive community anymore.

I put the list of things people could do to make the community more kid friendly in my post because it is a suggestion for those people- who want to have kids and parents participate and make it a success.

The reason I posted it is the following: I talked to a number of moms about this-on and off line to see if it was a common experience and the response was I got back was overwhelming. I was specifically told by several from the midwest that as kids they had belonged to church groups such as the one I whimsically described in my writing.

A number of activists said that this problem does not exist on the left in Latin America and that is one reason why the left is so successful there. They tell me there is a whole body of research and criticism on this problem. They begged me to post my article as wide and far as I could and a number of them asked my permission to repost it.

Last, I used myself as an example because my own life is what I know best. When you write from your own experience instead of the theoretical it is both more real and more valid.
peace,

Mik

[DemBones DemBones]

52. She doesn't seem to get it that she

is responsible for caring for her child and controlling her behavior, teaching her what she is allowed to do and not allowed to do. She may be right that her progressive friends don't like children, but maybe what they don't like is the way she allows her child to behave.

I am sympathetic to the reality that most people lose friends when their lives change. It's a sad fact of life that very few "friends" are there for you whatever happens. This woman seems to be partly at fault, however, for friends abandoning her.

She says:

"Then a very strange thing happened. Around November, when she learned to crawl and yank things off of shelves, I ceased to exist. People stopped calling me and when I called them they were Very Busy With Work. "

This suggests that she allowed her child to crawl around at someone else's home and yank things off their shelves. No wonder her friends became Very Busy With Work!

She also says:

"The other day I was at the farmer's market trying to get my veggies and my kid was continuously escaping my clutches and making a beeline for the road. Some woman (I believe I have seen her at teachers for peace) yelled at me for letting the kid go in the road and told me I better hold her hand. If you ever tried to collect vegetables with one hand and hold a struggling child who wants to run with the other you will know this is a nearly impossible task requiring superhuman strength. Yelling is not the kind of help I can use. The kind of help I CAN use is for the person to spare the criticism and offer to either grab the veggies or hold the kid. "

Yes, it would be nice if other people would hold your kid while you shop. It would also be nice if hundred-dollar bills fell out of the sky. You shouldn't count on either one happening. If you find holding a small child's hand while shopping to be "a nearly impossible task requiring superhuman strength," your coping skills are sadly lacking. Why wasn't the child in a stroller, strapped in with a seatbelt, and given something to eat or play with? Or, better yet, being held on one hip with one arm while you sorted through veggies with the other?

She's complaining that "some woman" yelled at her "for letting the kid go in the road." Was she not aware that her child had escaped her grasp and was in the road? Come on, lady, this is your child. You allowed her to get away from you, she could have been killed, and you're pissed that "some woman" dared to yell at you to go get your child? Why were you more focused on the veggies than on your child?

She also wants friends to child-proof their homes before she comes to visit with her young child, to offer food her child can eat, and have whole milk in their refrigerator. Doesn't she know how to pack food that her child can eat, and milk, and take it along for her child? And again, it's her responsibility to watch over her child, her friends without children shouldn't have to child proof their homes for her child's sake.

With her attitude, I wouldn't invite her over and I love babies and kids of all ages. I don't love parents who allow their kids to run amok in public or at other people's homes, no matter how "progressive" they are. Their kids tend to become the sort who grab toys away from other kids, hit people, and scream a lot, none of which makes them popular with their peers or with adults. In other words, they're raising freepers.

[RB TexLa]

54. There are many of them with the attitude of "You have to sacrifice ...... for MY children!"

[SmokingJacket]

55. One tends to get all new friends after having kids.

Childless people have no interest in altering their lifestyle for other people's kids, and you can hardly blame them. It has nothing to do with progressives -- it's just what happens when you have kids (though the zero-population growth people can be especially righteous). The accomodations *really are* too much to expect childless people to make (changing meeting times, childproofing, providing special food, entertainment, etc.)

Now you have to get to know other people with children. There are plenty of them. And you can do so much more with them: have big, sprawling, late afternoon dinners; share strollers and toys; pass along grown-out clothes, etc. Soon, you won't miss those childless folks one bit... ;)

[OzarkDem]

57. A "former" Republican is the only one who visits her?

Sorry, this whole thing is fishy, I'm not buying it. Lots of progressive "straw man" arguments.

My kids grew up going to political rallies, meetings, fundraisers and campaign events from the time they were in diapers and strollers. I never had a problem with it, the Dem candidates always welcomed kids.

[Javaman]

58. Another hit and run poster...

Drops the controversial subject and doesn't respond to any of the queries.

I'm not saying the OP is a fraud, fake or freep (FFF), but I just get amused by these types of posts.

Perhaps she just needed to vent (we all do), perhaps it was some evil diabolical plan to take over the world.

:shrug:

but I still get a bit suspicious when they don't reply. But then again she has a new baby and is probably dealing with the child and doesn't have time to respond.

:shrug:

[OzarkDem]

60. Seems odd

I guess they had to come up with something new since the divisive threads on pornography weren't getting attention anymore.

[DemBones DemBones]

61. And she threatens us:

"For those of you that do not have kids, never lose sight of the fact that these little people are the future and when you ignore them they are getting their education from somewhere else, like TV commercials or that nice fundamentalist family down the street. It IS actually up to you whether or not they grow up with the right values. It does take a village to raise a child, so maybe you should have the strategic sense to make sure it's your village."

So it's our fault if her kid turns out to be a right winger? Isn't she going to teach her child anything?

Good grief!

[OzarkDem]

63. That's so bizarre

I've never met any parent who thought it was up to the active Dems in their group to babysit or raise their kids.

On edit: p.s., my kids were lucky enough to grow up campaigning for Dennis Kucinich. I recall plastering my 2 yr old's stroller with Kucinich for Congress stickers and walking with him in the parades.

[DemBones DemBones]

65. Obviously progressives with children can still be

involved in politics, and campaign for Dennis, lucky them!

We took ours everywhere in the Seventies, starting out with the portable age/basket stage. There were always parents with kids in strollers, backpacks, and frontpacks in peace marches. I think you have to take babies out a lot so they know how to behave.

Babies are social animals who want to be liked and catch on pretty quickly how to get people to like them. They're hard-wired to be appealing for their own survival. Parents have to know how to behave, too; crying babies should be removed from meetings before they become a major annoyance. It is important to know that tired kids are cranky kids, as are hungry kids. Pretty much applies to all humans so it's not hard to figure that one out.

It's not rocket science, as someone said upthread. It's not always easy but nothing worth doing is easy.

[REP]

149. Hell Has Frozen Over - I Agree With You 100%!

Well, she has united us on one thing! :)

[DemBones DemBones]

152. Actually, we probably agree on a lot of things.

But I hope Hell has frozen over, maybe it'll help stop global warming. ;-)

I think we have agreed about some things in the Disabilities forum, too.

[Javaman]

64. I smell a freep. Odd that the person that posted this is a male and

has been a member since 2001 and only has 451 posts.

[Mik T]

66. I am the author of the original Post

Actually it's me- David (Bridge the gap)asked permission to post it for me in a few blogs- we know each other from another list. He read it on that list, felt it was important and posted that and my other response here. I am not a democrat (green party) and so have not posted to this board before. I am not a freeper-whatever that is. Feel free to google my name (Mik Tulumello) and you will see that I do indeed have progressive credientials.

I write alot about Latin America and socialism.

As far as my first post- There was one mistake in it- actually two.

The first was that when I said my daughter ran into the road, you do not know the area so you could not be expected to know that it was a road that was part of a small town library parking lot- hardly a superhighway. This was originally posted for people on a local list.

The second was that in general people seem to be taking the info from that part of the post and thinking I meant that people should do these things for my kid- in reality if you read the whole thing carefully you will realize that is a list of suggestions for people who wish to welcome families with young kids into the community. Due to HTML format the numbers on the list seem to have gotten lost which means that it creates the impression that I am expecting people to do this only for my own child. I will try and email David to see if he can edit that to clear up the confusion.

I did this in part for the other moms and kids out there who have had a similar experience, and for the community at large so they could see that if this is an area of weakness it does affect the community as a whole.

[bobbolink]

73. Welcome to DU, Mik T!

:toast:

Isn't it swell that for your first post you are required to feel you must defend yourself?

As I said, welcome to DU.

:shrug:

[Mojorabbit]

81. Welcome to DU

A great post and a good discussion.

[Mik T]

93. Thanks.

Sorry about that numbering thing. I think the meaning of the original post might have gotten a bit confused because of that. I could resubmit it numbered if you would like to pass it on to any other lists you are involved in.

As we can see from these posts there are alot of people here who apparently embrace the somewhat contrary-to-progressive-values view that childrearing is the business of only the mom (and maybe the dad) but not the rest of the community.I wrote that article because I hope to educate them about how valuable kids are.

If I have expectations for people to look out for my kid they are probably not hypocritical. I am a former art teacher who does a lot of volunteer work with troubled teenagers, and years before I ever even thought of having a kid of my own I was very involved for several years in helping to raise the 3 children (ages 1 1/2 to 7)of my downstairs neighbor, who didn't do such a great job of raising her own kids due to poverty and an alcohol problem. I did it because if I didn't do it noone would, and I didn't want to see those kids going without food, or not going to school. So I gave them food and took them to school.

The other really great example of family solidarity besides the fundamentalists in my area is our gay community. They really value kids. My lesbian friends recently got married and they arranged for us to have help with childcare. For the reception,they had someone helping with games for all of the kids. They also had babysitters for hire for a night event that went with the wedding. There are other examples I could site from that community-but I have to say that among progressives the gay community is the positive exception and not the rule. As I stated in my original post I think that it's because they have had such trouble with being allowed to keep and have families that they don't take them for granted at all.

[Bill McBlueState]

94. welcome to DU!

My wife and I have a four-month-old little girl and are noticing many of the things you wrote about.

[SoCalDem]

67. Hey, Laydeeeeee..

Having that baby was YOUR choice. It's inevitable that things change when you have a baby. My guess is that you are not a 20-something. Perhaps the other women in your group are a bit older, and truly HAVE "been there-done that".

We all face motherhood alone, no matter how we wish it were not so. When pepolr offer unsolicited advice, we tend to bristle at the thought that someone else thinks we are not doing it "right", and for many first time moms, it's awkward to ask for help, lest someone think we "can't handle it".

We always imagine that things will be just great..but guess what? they aren't always easy, or great or even acceptable..we just have to do it, and know that the early phases of childhood pass in a heartbeat.

We no longer live in extended family groups/communes/close-knit communities, so there is a very big likelihood that YOU are it.

There was a time when this was not so, but that time is long gone. The reason why reactionary right wingers seem to have it easier, is that many of them have chosen to "go back".

When I had my babies, I actually lived that life.. Coffee-klatches on snowy mornings with 6 or 7 Moms... all the kids playing in the next room...My best friend and I actually breastfed each others' babies when we exchanged babysitting for time away.. But we lived "on the bubble"..just before it all changed.. NONE of the Moms on my street had outside jobs, and all of our husbands traveled with their jobs, so we were our own support group.

The sad fact of life it this.. Babies change your life, your lifestyle and yes..even your friends

[knitter4democracy]

68. Been there, and I totally agree with what she's saying.

Not all Dem meetings and such are kid-friendly. Some candidates get this and have child care available so I can stuff envelopes or phone bank, but most don't. Then they want me there in the middle of the day during the summer. :eyes:

Getting kids anywhere is a big task. Now that mine are older, it's easier, but babies are tons of work. Getting them to a protest or a phone banking session most of the time doesn't work out too well. Add more kids to the mix, and the trouble and work go up exponentially.

Some here have the attitude that, since they chose not to "breed" (like I'm, what, a cow or horse?), they should have zero responsibility or concern for anyone with kids. I find that attitude sad. Yes, I helped people with kids before I had mine--I taught Sunday School for three years, did puppet ministry for years and years (never travel anywhere without one in my carryon), and often offer to take the baby so the mom can run to the bathroom or whatever. I grew up in a church, and children, parents, childless singles--everyone--were all welcome. She's right that the conservatives have that part right and that we need to reconsider that and make child care at our events a priority.

Oh, and portapotties need lights for when it gets dark. My kids were too scared to go in them at the county fair when it got dark.

[BlooInBloo]

72. I think what people have trouble with are responsibilities for other people's kids...

... that they didn't freely choose to bear. You chose to bear responsibility for others' kids in doing Sunday school. That's a lovely thing - because you CHOSE it. It's when responsibility for someone else's kids is IMPOSED upon not-their-parents people that umbrage tends to be taken. With some justice, IMO.

Offering help: WONDERFUL - a caring *choice* that you or someone can make. As long as it's a choice.

[eridani]

Isn't the point of being progressive to have more of a "we" society--

--than a "me" society? Hey, fuck health care for other peoples' kids too! :sarcasm:

[BlooInBloo]

85. Whoa - expanding what I said to national children's healthcare is just fucking stupid.

[eridani]

88. Really? I thought it was the Rethug meme that everybody should be responsible--

--for their own health care and that of their kids.

[BlooInBloo]

90. Yup, it's just fucking stupid.

[knitter4democracy]

114. It's always a choice.

Kids kind of impose themselves on all around them, though. That's part of being a child. My kids will go up to people and hug them and interrupt sometimes (we're working hard on stopping this) to tell a story. Frankly, I can't stop them from being kids, so I think letting them be themselves in a group of Progressives should be allowed (within reason, of course).

[Mojorabbit]

74. All churches are not conservative are they?

I am asking seriously as I haven't seen the inside of one since I was a teen over thirty years ago. Surely there are churches like perhaps the UU that are more liberal in their thinking. There are plenty of Christian progressives and I imagine they go to church somewhere?

[Bill McBlueState]

95. that doesn't necessarily help

No matter how progressive the church, there's an expectation that if you go, you have certain beliefs in common with everyone else who goes. (UUs are a notable exception.) It doesn't matter how politically liberal the local church is; if you don't think their god exists, you're not going to fit in very well.

[knitter4democracy]

115. No, not all are.

UU churches tend to be quite liberal. I know of a Presbyterian church that is very liberal and runs a free health clinic out of their basement (in addition to massive community work in other areas).

A good way to find out would be to ask people at a vigil or protest or county Dem meeting where they go. :)

[bleedingheart]

75. I know of what you speak...

the funny part is that what goes around...comes around...

The same dude who bitched at me for bringing my kid to a meeting...then needs my help later when he discovers I have a skill he needs..

I have frequently lobbied for child care at meetings...it would get more folks involved...

Hell hiring a teenager or two to babysit and do fingerpaints while the adults met...that would be great..

[Mojorabbit]

83. I used to babysit when I was a kid

for a few bucks. Do kids still do this? I took a girl scout class and actually earned a badge in babysitting. I came to the door with a bag of crafts and skills for any age group including cpr. If I had children and wanted to go out somewhere where my total attention was required, I would ask for references and hire someone to watch my children if I could not get a member of my family to do it.
If this was impossible I would bring my child in a stroller with plenty of snacks and toys to keep the child busy.
My mother owned a day care center and I worked there with her from the age of twelve helping out. It isn't rocket science. I love having children around and as I am not able to have any the more the merrier are welcome in my house.

[bleedingheart]

87. yep...kids still babysit

my college age nephew watched my kids all summer...and I have two sisters lined up for Mr. B and my date nights during the rest of the year...if one is not available the other is...and both have had life-saving classes..

Funny though...the going rate for adults who babysit is around $10/hr (these are folks who have daycare experience and background checks).., to have a teen with just a safety course..around $7/hr...

[knitter4democracy]

116. That's about our going rate in this area.

That's per kid here, though, so we're paying $14/hr just to go out. Expensive.

It's hard to find teens that have time here, too. So many are working other jobs, in two or more sports, in a million clubs, and on and on that it's hard to coordinate all the schedules.

[knitter4democracy]

118. Amen and amen and amen to all of that.

We've had to fight a few times at our church, even. It's mostly older adults, and some don't like that babies cry and kids sometimes get antsy. If it's like that at church, just imagine how it is at our county Dem meetings. :eyes: I can't go most months--Hubby's on-call and rounding in the hospital or on the phone the entire night, so I have to get the kids down for the night. I'm hoping to get to more this year with his change in schedule.

[JerseygirlCT]

112. I've always been a kid person, too.

And I think it's very savvy of people seeking volunteers to prepare for those with kids who need babysitting. That may, in fact, be another potential volunteer job!

OTOH, I think what people are responding to is the sense that there is almost a demand here for others to help care for her child so that she can continue much of her pre-child life. It doesn't always work that way.

I know with my second, I found I had to leave my career behind temporarily. No good child care available. It was hard in lots of ways. But you put your family first when you become a parent, and you have to make hard choices sometimes.

[knitter4democracy]

117. It does change absolutely everything.

I totally agree with you there. I had to leave my job, too (Catholic high school teacher--would've cost us money for me to work), and while I was ready then, I've hit my limit for being a SAHM. I'm taking some college classes for fun (thank goodness we can pay for it now), teaching knitting at the Art Center in town, and working on a knitting book, all in an effort to stay sane.

I just wish more places were kid-friendly. Putting a million things at kid level in the grocery store is not cool. Advertising that's hard to tell apart from the show is not cool. Sending our kids to die in a desert for oil is very not cool. Shouldn't Progressives work to make their own meetings kid-friendly so we can tackle making the entire community better, little ones, too?

[JerseygirlCT]

119. Makes sense to me. I think what's going to have to happen

is that those with the most invested in seeing things become more child-friendly are going to have to be the ones to make it so.

This week I watch the kids and you go to the meeting, next week we switch... or other ideas. But it's SO hard to make new friends at older ages, it really is. Becoming a parent can be very isolating -- which is a shame, since this may the age, more than any other, that good friends mean the most!

[JCMach1]

69. Not just progressives... it's an American thing

America loves to give lip service to 'family values', but the reality is too many people hate kids.

[bobbolink]

71. Maybe you missed the part comparing "progressives' to fundies in this way.

She has a very good point, and one that needs to be taken seriously.

[eridani]

82. But progressives are supposed to be fighting against those values n/t

[Lorien]

89. It wasn't always this way

I was a child during the late sixties and seventies. My liberal parents sent me to what I always fondly refer to as a "hippie commune school"; no desks, class sometimes held in the woods, teachers wearing long hair and love beads. Back then the "it takes a village" idea was greatly accepted. But our culture was far more "left" overall-at least in the northern part of the states. Compassion was a virtue, and there was a greater sense of community. Less of the "me first, screw you" attitude of today's "money and consumption is everything" crowd. The Rightward shift has made America much colder to Any Child Who Is Not One's Own. Americans are less caring towards anyone who needs care; children, the elderly, the sick, the lonely, the unemployed...it's become a very cold society, and the only way to not become completely isolated is to really work at it (most don't have the time-we're trying to survive, after all) or become very successful so that others seek you out because they need you. It's a sorry state indeed.

[bleedingheart]

92. It's part of that Reagan legacy that just keeps giving ...

the "I got mine..go get your own"...and "why should I help you"..

[Raksha]

108. How I envy you that you went to that "hippie commune school"!

I'm from the generation just ahead of you and went to school in the conformist McCarthyite fifties. I graduated from high school in 1963, just in time to see the hippie counterculture getting off the ground. It does make me happy to know that it was the values of MY generation, during the brief time they were dominant, that made YOUR positive experience possible.

And then came Reaganomics, which gave us the Culture of Selfishness we are now desperately struggling to escape from.

[Lorien]

126. You must be close to the age of one of my best friends

I was born in 1965, and my friend is 61. From what she tells me your generation was terribly repressed-especially women. I'm very grateful to have had the experiences I did during my childhood in regards to education. We weren't taught to memorize facts, we were taught to understand our world and how it came to be the way it is. Critical thinking skills were strongly encouraged. "And why is that"? or "and why do you think it came to be this way"? were common questions from our teachers. They were passionate about their jobs. These days teachers are so strained they have no energy for passion. Memorization is the key to high marks on school tests (I never earned any grades until Jr. High), so critical thinking is pretty much excluded from the curriculum. It's so sad. Children are told not to think, not to care, just to obey and consume and work endlessly without question. It's been this way for so long now, how WILL we ever escape?

[eridani]

78. Our state progressive caucus chair just quit because of family responsibilities

Caucus members are so dispersed atatewide, however, that it was really hard to tind a way to offer material support.

[bobbolink]

79. Pretty much the same thing with poor folk....

"Progressives" seem to have lots of occasions that require $$$ to attend, leaving out those who are naturally Dems, but don't fit the $$$ criteria.

Fundies go out of their way to welcome poor folk.

Guess what the result it.

[Midlodemocrat]

144. And we're off.

:eyes:

[bobbolink]

80. dupe

:shrug:

[LWolf]

86. Family friendly.

On one hand, I sort of agree with the author of this little essay. Children are a part of society, too, and should be included in the community. Whatever community they happen to be born to.

On the other hand:

Overpopulation is a problem that no one wants to deal with, and most people are willing to be offended at the suggestion that perhaps life doesn't revolve around reproducing the next generation. The social pressure to have families is enormous. If being childless was accepted, even celebrated, in human cultures, the planet would be a less-burdened, healthier, happier place. If there are groups of people not having kids, I'd like to thank them.

I raised 2 kids, and I've taught other people's kids for a couple of decades now. After spending much of my waking life taking care of large crowds of other people's kids, I dont' get all excited at the idea of spending my personal time with them. I like them; I just don't want to be responsible for them in my off time.

A healthy balance is needed. Children should be accepted and included in the community; they "belong" just like everyone else. Parents should also be sensitive about good manners, making sure that children young enough not to know better are not allowed to disrupt others. In other words, if your kid is fussing in the restaurant or theater, take him out.

A healthy balance is needed. A balance between disdain for children and parenting, and those whose greatest goal in life is to have and raise babies.

[bleedingheart]

91. the world population problem is less a problem of birth rates

it is more a problem of interfering with the death rate...

Man mucked with the rules of natural selection...

we created vaccines
we save people from death and keep those with debilitating diseases alive
we have food programs to feed people that 100 years ago or more would have starved..
let's be honest...there are folks who are in the breeding pool who have genetic conditions that naturally would have removed them from the pool...

But the one natural thing we can't control is the desire of people to bear children...to bring forth the next generation...

In a weird sense...our "humanity" has created this problem...the desire to prevent suffering will create more suffering...

[LWolf]

98. True.

It's a dilemma. We can either allow the death rates to go back up, or we can, as we bring the death rates down, choose to limit the birth rate.

Turning a blind eye to the imbalance benefits no one.

I choose to limit the birth rate. I understand the desire of people to have children; I raised 2 of my own. That's a good number for those that want children. Two is one for each hand, averts the isolation of the only child, and will gradually reduce the population through those who choose to be childless.

[Mik T]

96. Childlessness is not always a virtue.

"If being childless was accepted, even celebrated, in human cultures, the planet would be a less-burdened, healthier, happier place."

I agree that childlessness is a fine and acceptable thing. It just doesn't exclude us from responsibility for our fellow humans, thats all.

Fact is we'd better have some kids or who is going to take care of the old people and run society in 30 years?

I have one child but if a progressive friend of mine wants to have 5 thats her decision. Chances are pretty good that her kids will at least recycle and think about their carbon footprint a little more than those of the right winger down the road. If we are lucky they will be part of the solution and not the problem. Who knows? Someday the 5th kid in a family of progressives might perfect fusion power and solve the global warming problem, or invent a new kind of battery thats really light and cheap so we could all have solar cars. The possibilities are endless if we embrace and educate the next generation.

Peace,

Mik

[LWolf]

97. That's correct, of course.

Having, as I indicated, spent much of my waking life with other people's kids, I can say this with conviction:

Some people are not good parenting material, and it is a virtue in that case to remain childless.

Some people are the nurturers of the future, and are blessing the world with their children.

I'm a teacher. I know that nurturing the next generation is vital. I think it would be a virtue if people would, voluntarily, with sincere consideration, choose to limit their families to 1 or 2 children in a lifetime. It would be better for the planet, overall.

Voluntarily being the key point, of course.

I'd like to see us look beyond our "blood" families to consider our whole community "family" to be supported on, to be counted on in need. I've thought about this quite a bit.

I'm the only child of a single parent with no extended family. I have 2 grown sons and one grandson. That's it. The sons have no partners, and the grandson has no mother. I get to mother my grandson while I'm caring for my senior citizen mom. We're stretched pretty thin.

There's a better balance between my little family, disconnected and isolated from the rest of the world, and those that don't seem to know when to stop.

[Raksha]

106. I think it's a big mistake for the American progressive community

to think we have to solve the problem of global overpopulation all by ourselves. After all, while some of us may have genetic defects (but doesn't every population?), we also have some great genes and it would be shortsighted not to pass them on. And just as important, we want to pass on our VALUES. We believe the future of the world depends on having our values become the dominant values of society, NOT those of the global predators or the lies they tell their victims in order to keep them powerless. None of that can happen if too many of us believe we have to sacrifice parenthood (those that otherwise WANT to be parents, of course) for the sake of the environment.

Al Gore points out that the only realistic way to deal with problem of overpopulation is to EDUCATE WOMEN all over the world. When women have a choice, they never choose to have more children than they can feed. When that happens the "choice" isn't their own but is imposed on them by regressive patriarchal societies and religions. The solution is to attack the problem at the source, and not believe we have to solve it unilaterally by condemning ourselves to self-extinction.

[LWolf]

135. Of course it's a world-wide problem, and solution.

We can't possibly do it by ourselves.

We can't expect the rest of the world to step up, though, if we aren't willing to do so ourselves. That's "being the change." That's modeling. That's integrity, rather than hypocrisy.

I've heard this argument before, about 15 years ago from an administrator I worked under.

The difference was that she was a rw xtian republican, who wanted to keep the educated white elite ruling the dumb brown and black folk, and feared that their population numbers would overwhelm "us."

I don't see choosing to be childless as "self-extinction." That's a whole different world view, that you are somehow less if a piece of your physical self isn't left behind.

I do agree that educating women is a vital piece of the solution.

I'd also like to see the U.S. reform tax policy. Give big deductions to people who don't have kids, big deductions to people who adopt unwanted kids, small deductions to those who have one child, smaller deductions to those who have 2, and at 3 lose the deduction. At 4 start paying a carbon tax.

Don't trade with countries who don't make education and birth control freely and abundantly available to their women.

Those are political actions that respect choice while encouraging responsible choice.

[Blue_Tires]

99. her entitlement complex is overflowing

sorry that the world didn't stop rotating so we could all bow down at the altar of your precious sprog...Just find a commune and be done with it...

[H2O Man]

100. I live near Binghamton.

Having children changes many things, but it doesn't mean the end of being part of a progressive network/community. I'm reminded of a part of one of John Lennon's last interviews, where he talks about Paul showing up at all hours, often unannounced, when John was parenting his younger son. And John was a bit short one time, and said that Paul should call first. Things work two ways. I think that others have had similar experiences .....

When people have children, almost every personal relationship goes through an adjustment. Frequently, young/new parents begin to socialize with other young/new parents more frequently than with single friends, or those without children. But that in no way means that those young/new parents are likely to be somehow "less progressive." In fact, the opposite is often true. Most young/new parents share a desire to have a stable neighborhood with clean air, pure water, good schools, and many other progressive "causes."

There is nothing more progressive than that.

[electron_blue]

101. If there's a college or university in your area, check that out.

All in all, youngish faculty with children tend to be progressive and are hungry for other families to get together with.

Try doing all of the above as a single parent and really watch the friends shrink away even more.

[FooFootheSnoo]

102. I agree with quite a bit of your post

I've been shocked at some of the comments I've seen on DU. I've never in my life seen such animosity directed at children and families. It's so sad. While I don't believe children should act like little hellraisers, some "adults" act like it's the end of the world if they have to listen to a baby cry for 5 minutes. It seems we are returning to the days when children should be seen and not heard.

[Mik T]

105. A few things I didnt make clear

In general people seem to be taking the info from part of the post and thinking I meant that people should do those things for my kid- in reality if you read the whole thing carefully you will realize that is a list of suggestions for people who wish to welcome families with young kids into the community. Unfortunatly due to HTML format the numbers on the list seem to have gotten lost which means that if you dont read it carefully, it creates the impression that I am expecting people to do this only for my own child.

Secondly a bunch of people have been telling me on this list that it's because my child is so badly behaved that I have the problem. She's not-She's just an unusually active 14 month old who learned to walk and run early. You can't actually discipline a kid that age. They aren't wired to understand cause and effect that well yet. Kids don't even develop a good long term memory until they are two. You can keep telling them no and repeating yourself until you turn blue and it won't do much good. Their grasp of language isn't that great because they don't understand if-then statements. Punishing which never works too well, doesnt work at all at that age.

[H2O Man]

107. There are a number

of good, progressive groups around Binghamton. I've gone to many, many events at Opportunities For Broome. They have a great staff, and almost all of them are involved in other progressive groups.

[JerseygirlCT]

111. They are absolutely exhausting, for that reason. You cannot reason

with them; you have to remove the problems from their path, or remove them from the problems. All of which takes constant supervision. Constant. That makes it difficult to multi-task, unfortunately. Until you've btdt, you'd be absolutely amazed at how much you *can't* get done in a day with a small and active child.

But this too will pass, I assure you. And then you'll miss all the sweet stuff at this age.

[Gormy Cuss]

123. There are times and places for young kids to participate, and times when they should be left out.

Your child sounds like a normal toddler, if a bit precocious at 14 months. The simple reality is most political activities will not be appropriate for her. Outdoor picnics or rallies, sure, because you can always leave if she's just having one of those days. Toddlers are a handful, no question about it. As several posters have noted above, parents learn to adjust their expectations of what can be accomplished with a child of that age in tow. The rest of the world can't be reformed to the needs and wants of toddlers. I wholeheartedly support the idea that small changes can make some events more child-friendly and that it's a good point of discussion, but there will always be many events that just can't be made friendly enough for a toddler. If you are willing to let your partner take the lead in these activities then perhaps you should consider this time a sabbatical. All too quickly your daughter will grow out of this phase and you can renew your links to the community with a darling child at your side.

[indie_voter]

129. Toddlers don't understand

They're just exploring the world around them, they have no impulse control. This will pass. However, unfortunately, for the short term there are just some places it doesn't work to take toddlers. Be it a childfree home or a long meeting. However there are ways to stay connected, invite old friends to your house for short visits, perhaps after your child's nap if she takes one, so she's rested.

Perhaps you could go to various events for an hour or two with your daughter when you feel she is rested and able to tolerate an hour or two in more structured environments. But even then, there will be times you have to leave at moments notice, even though you aren't ready.

For whatever it's worth, I used a sling to carry my toddlers. This way they were secure on my hip so I could use my hands to grocery shop or chase after my other child. Both mine hated the stroller, and to be honest, I didn't like it either.

There are parenting support and playgroups out there with people who share your beliefs. When mine were younger I tried the attachment parenting group in my area, the chemistry didn't work for me. But the preschool co-op was a life saver for me. 14 months is still too young for pre-school, but there might be a co-op situation suitable for you and your daughter.

[JerseygirlCT]

110. I'm uneasy around any adult who can't abide children

Their right to be so, but I don't care to be around *them*.

[blogslut]

104. My experience was completely different from the OP

I was involved with the local peace movement in the early 90's, when my child was about 3-4. Being a single mom, she was with me when I went to meetings, meetups and events. There was always someone around who volunteered to care for the little ones. I was told many times, leave the child with us. Just the same, I never was made to feel that small children were unwelcome. In fact, I have a story that solidified the child-friendly aspect of this particular group of activists:

A man had come to make a presentation about nuclear weapons. We all sat around him as he gave his talk. My child was not loud but she was walking around from person to person as children do. The man stopped his talk and said:

"Somebody get that child out of here."

I scooped my baby up and we went outside. Moments later, the leader of the group came to me and told me to bring myself and my toddler back to the meeting. She explained to me that she and the speaker had a little "talk" after I left. She told the man that this community treasures children and the rights of those children and if he couldn't manage to speak over the wanderings of a three year old child, then perhaps the community did not want to hear what he had to say. I took my little one back. The speech went on and the man later apologized to me.

[JerseygirlCT]

109. It's not at all unusual to feel this way, especially after your first child

It's a real shock - life changes so hugely and so quickly.

She's got a good point, in that making events and groups more family-friendly is a good thing wherever possible.

But no one but her husband and her are responsible for caring for the child. They made a decision to change their life pretty dramatically -- expecting that everyone else will help is expecting a lot the way our society is usually structured now. (Easier when lots of family is around all the time.)

I feel for her -- I remember the loneliness. But she needs to perhaps talk to her doctor about PPD, and she needs to work to get out and meet other progressive-minded parents. Her friends without children are not all going to stick around. They didn't buy into the lifestyle change, afterall, she did.

[Trillo]

113. Perhaps they weren't really your friends. Time to make new ones.

Such is life.

[MadMaddie]

120. Why don't you request a new forum here for new moms...

and maybe in your state and city section?

I suspect there are many mothers that feel the same way but don't have a community.....

It will take a little work but I have respect for Mothers and the busy lives they lead. It's a hard job with it's rewards.

[indie_voter]

130. Fantastic idea!! nt

[Lydia Leftcoast]

122. I'm single and childless, but I had the mirror image of your problem

when my friends were in the childbearing age.

That is, people would have kids, and they'd disappear from my life--except when they wanted a free babysitter.

It was a bit annoying and transparent.

[DemBones DemBones]

155. Nobody seems to be noticing your post, Lydia, but

it's true that many people abandon their single friends when they marry and their friends without children when they have children. It also works the other way -- single friends abandon you when you marry, etc.

I've never understood why people abandon friends for such frivolous reasons. If you really like someone and have things in common, you shouldn't care that your lives have changed.

[Mythsaje]

127. I'm happy to provide the 18th Rec...

Some very salient points here.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

131. I call bullshit.

Plenty of families--my own included--manage to get along and still be liberal. Plenty of families still manage to attend rallies. I don't see what the issue is. Does she expect people to come up and kowtow to her awesome childmaking abilities? It's up to her to stay in this world, not up to the world to stay in her. My mother worked in the state capital for years before I was born and stuck around after I was born. There are many pics of me, not even one year old, trundled up in campaign swag and going to events, where other infants in a similar state also were. I'm not sure how so many people can manage it and this woman can't.

[Coexist]

132. Nah - Le Leche League is SUCH a right-wing hang-out.

:eyes:

I never met ANY progressives with kids there.

[rucky]

133. I have a toddler. This post smells like astroturf.

In fact, being a parent has given us inroads into several progressive communities: the La Leche League, for one. Attachment parenting groups who debunk the Dobson bullshit. We have our child in a great granola-ey daycare with like-thinking parents who want to teach their kids through kid-directed, experiential learning.

[Cobalt Violet]

134. "crunchy vegetable tempeh stirfry"

Sounds good.

[Mik T]

136. Granola daycare? Maybe in your area.

Look guys, it's not BS. I am from upstate NY and most of the daycare here is for 2 and up. If I could afford it anyway which I can't. My partner is a sociology prof at a small 4 year school-doesn't pay much. It does keep us from qualifying for any daycare subsidy though. I'm at home- we figured out that financially it wouldn't be worth it to for me to work because we'd be bumped up a tax bracket and after you factored in the daycare and the gas we'd just about break even. (teacher salary around here is lower and daycare is around 250-300$ a week)

Sure maybe when she gets older it will be different. And no, she is very hard to take to events without help because she is a super active kid. There's nothing wrong with her- she's not cranky or anything but she just learned how to walk and run and she completely wants nothing to do with the stroller or backpack or any other form of confinement after 15 minutes. Really all I can do at one time is focus on her.

For example, she was playing in the sandbox the other day and I went around the corner of our house to grab something and in the 30 seconds I was gone I found her 5 rungs up an extension ladder I didn't think she could even climb. She can go up and down stairs. But she still has no common sense because she 14 months old.

Fact is kids are all different in temperament, you may have had a kid you could take to events and still be able to pay attention to the events without help-my kid is not one of those kids. She takes after my partner, who although older then me(in his early 40's) still can eat whatever he wants and not gain a pound and runs around like a maniac from the minute he gets up til he hits the bed at night. It might not be fun to have a 14 month old like that but she will probably be happy with that metabolism when she's an adult.

And yes I'm definitely finding it difficult to connect with other moms because it's hard. In the past my connections with people have been based on a common interest. Now I am finding that just both of you having kids is still not enough to create a friendship unless the chemistry is there. And my style of being a mom is different too, I think there might be a lot of parents out there on the left who won't let their kids experience what in my opinion are basic things.

I have had 2 playdates, both with the same mom. I gave up after the second because this mom wouldn't let her kid fingerpaint with instant vanilla pudding and food coloring because she was worried her perfectly healthy son would accidently ingest refined sugar. After she made sugerless pudding from scratch my kitchen was a mess and there wasn't even a chance for my kid to finger paint because it was naptime for both kids and they were cranky. And all the mom did the whole time was complain about how intolerent our culture was of people who didn't want to vaccinate and how, she didn't understand why the doctor told her that her one year old needed to eat less whole grains because he was getting anemic.

I'm all for organic food- I'm an avid gardner-but that whole thing,though it makes for a funny story, was just crazy. It kinda soured me on getting out there and trying to do this.

Before you accuse me of whining-I know I need to try again. The comments people have made here about finding other people with kids are right on. A couple of people have reached out to me and I have decided to start a progressive parents group in our community. It's going to be hard though, our progressive community just doesn't have a critical mass of parents to work with. I'd say the average age of it's members is about 60.

[indie_voter]

146. You're right, it's hard

Once you have kids, some relationships you make have to be about your child. My son has a good friend he adores, I'm not on the same wavelength as his mother. However, we both make allowances for each other for the kids sake. Would we seek each other other if it weren't for the kids, nope. However, once we get past our differences we find some common ground.

On the other hand, my son has a friend he's known since pre-school, they didn't connect but his mom and I did, like a house on fire. So we nurtured their relationship, and while they might never be the best of friends, they've found areas where they connect.

It's all about compromise.

That said, there are some times it just won't work. I ran in to that with the attachment parenting group, and left. Honestly, it wasn't until my son hit pre-school age that I found kindred spirits, and even then it takes work to find, because as you noted, the field narrows.

Also, for what it's worth, when your daughter reaches pre-school age, co-ops are less expensive because you are required to work at the school.

You're also right, kids have different temperaments. My two are very different. I couldn't take my oldest very many places when he was a toddler, he would have none of it. My second, though just as strong willed, is more easy going, and I could take her places I couldn't take him.

The bottom line is raising kids is a difficult job, and sadly the fantasy you had while pregnant is a common one, but not based on reality.

As you said in your first post, sometimes the GLBT community is better organized in this area. FWIW, planetout has a listing for a playgroup in your city, perhaps you could email the person (google planetout, search for families, and your city, you'll find the playgroup) and see if they could help.

I empathize with your dilemma. I had my children in my mid-late 30s, the change was a shock, we were the only ones in our circle who went the child route. It's an adjustment, and does take outreach on your part. I wish you all the best now and in the future.

[Cobalt Violet]

151. I didn't mean to sound so flippant.

It was so close to lunch time around here and it just sounded so good. I just got back from work and I'm starving again so this post has to be short as well.

I'm not passing any kind of judgment on you. I have no children am not talented with anything regarding children. But one observation I can speak of is that a child is only a toddler for so long and certain issues will resolve themselves in time. There will come a time when you won't have to be as vigilant of her every move.

[Marr]

137. If I can be brutally honest with you for a moment, Ms. Tulumello-

It seems as though you're accustomed to having alot of attention as a single woman, and don't understand why the world isn't reshuffling it's schedule to accommodate you anymore. That's not a right/left thing. It's a growing up thing.

Welcome to reality.

[Midlodemocrat]

143. .

:applause:

Having a child changes your life forever.

[Mik T]

147. You don't know me and thats pretty judgemental

Calling me Ms Tulumello make the sexism of what you had to say OK huh? Accostumed to having a lot of attention? You make me sound like some kind of pampered sex object. Give me a break. I've given alot to my progressive community over the years. Go ahead and Goggle my name if you like. You are blaming the messenger because you don't want to admit its a problem.

Believe me I'm a grownup.

But thats not what this is about is it? because I didnt write this for myself-it's not like the people on this board are gonna volunteer to watch my kid. It's actually about a failure in this country for people to be supportive of families with young kids by giving back. We worry a lot about abortion rights (not that that isnt important) when we could also be worrying about paid parental leave and subsidized daycare. Unlike the rest of the developed world, that issue doesn't get covered much in the USA. Canada has one year of paid parental leave for the 2 parents to split however they like. Why do we worry more about abortion rights? The answer is simple- If you get an abortion or have a baby which is easier on the corporation you work for? Think real hard now...

And why do most people have abortions? because they are worried about being able to support the child.

Just because past generations have suffered without support does that mean it's only right for this one to suffer too?

[REP]

148. Most Women Have Abortions Because They Do Not Want A(nother) Child

As many women have made clear to you here, they were able to have children without the world worshipping them for it or strangers "supporting" them. Get over yourself, and stop imagining that women who don't have children make that choice from lack of "support."

Grow up. By the way, adults refer to themselves as adults, not "grownups"{sic}.

[Mik T]

153. In Rep's own words....

Gee sound familiar? I don't think you actually read anything I wrote. Looks like you wrote just what I was saying in my previous post in your own journal. Very mature and grownup profile by the way.


In reps own words:

"Ever notice that when something 'traditional' harms men as well a women, suddenly it's a human rights issue, but when it mostly harms women, then it's a cultural difference and we must tolerate it. I say bullshit. Wrong is wrong in any culture. Just because a system has been in place for a long time doesn't mean it is moral, correct or just - or that is forbidden for others to criticize it."


So what you are saying applies to women, just not to moms? Calling me spoiled or not grown up or whatever is just the easy way out isn't it? It makes it OK not to address the larger problem of how families with children are treated on the left in the United States- which is what adults do, they see a problem and they attempt to fix it-they don't just sit around name calling.

[Pithlet]

156. I agree with you.

If I had just become politically aware, and was asked to guess which community gave more actual support to existing families, I would have guessed the progressive one. After all, politically we support the causes that make things better for families. The Right certainly does not. But I'm not sure how right I would have been. My favorite online progressive sites have done more to make me feel unwelcome as a parent than any other. I've never encountered so much vitriol toward families with children than I have in progressive communities, both on and off line. Granted, it is a small amount. I know that the vast majority of people in the progressive community do not share their views of those vocal few. And it certainly doesn't make me more immune to the BS lip service from those on the right. But, as soon as I read the OP, I knew she would be accused of being self centered. Because that's one of the big stereotypes of parents from quite a few on the left, sadly. No, there couldn't possibly even be a grain of truth to the OP's complaint, because they're just one of those stupid breeders who think the world should revolve around them now that they had a kid. I think it's a shame, because there are a lot of people who are now becoming more politically aware because of Bush's royal fuck up. I think there is an unfortunate tendency on the left to shun those people as unsophisticated and not worth associating with, and the disdain towards families with kids is a facet of that.

[SarahB]

158. I agree as well.

When I was a newbie on DU, my first post to garnish over 50 (maybe 100) replies was on this very subject and I was hammered too. My parents were politically active in the 70's and I was once the kid carted around. I haven't done it as much with my own children because it's just too damned hard. As they get older, it becomes easier though.

I get fed up with people who claim to be progressive, who claim to be on the side of human rights not give one fucking fig about issues like parental leave despite the fact that every other 1st world nation has it. (I, for one, am pissed off we pay so much in taxes and it goes to fund unnecessary wars instead of being put to use by our own people who pay those taxes.) They use the same talking points as the right wing for why we shouldn't care about issues like these. Who are truly the self-absorbed here? :think:

[atommom]

154. I can empathise with you. Things should get easier as your child gets

a little older. I actually found a new circle of progressive friends when I joined a mothers' group, back when my kids were small. We were definitely the minority (it being a red state and everything), but we were very happy to find each other. I won't pretend things magically went back to normal after that, but it certainly helped. There is actually a progressive moms' group in a neighboring town. Something like that might be worth starting up if you have the time. Just having like-minded people to talk to can make a huge difference.

And all the abuse you're getting here? Typical DU feeding frenzy. Don't let it get you down.