Just to be clear: How many of you will actually vote GOP if you don't like our nominee

[jgraz]

[robinlynne]

1. uhh noone is that stupid. hard to believe you guys are even worried about it.

[Bjornsdotter]

2. 62,040,610

....were that stupid in 2004.

[BuyingThyme]

4. And we were all stupid in 2006.

[robinlynne]

23. according to falsified data....

[BlooInBloo]

16. This is DU.

[bryant69]

3. I don't know - if they put up Dick Cheney I might consider going independent

Hard to say, really.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[GreenTea]

5. Is this the kind of shit you really believe? That if we can't stand Clinton

or any other Dem nominee we would actually vote for a fucking republican? Go learn something....there's not a liberal alive who would vote for a republican....but now a fucking moderate...they'll swing either way, which ever way the wind is blowing....they'll vote for "whoever is the best candidate" now how in the fuck would they know that? Whoever spends more money and runs more ads?

Since they don't have a strong party ideology, they'll vote either ideology, even the republicans sick ideology (disguised as compassionate and even democratic while running) until they get in office....How do you think Reagan got into office and Bush got so many votes? fucking moderates who change parties and would actually vote for a republican...certainly no liberal progressive would EVER vote for the intolerant, regressive republicans!!

And by the tone of your question...it appears you think it's just a simple move by very deicated long time liberals....this is no fucking football game to us?

Moderates a different story....where do you stand in the political spectrum?

[acmavm]

6. It's not the OP's fault. Haven't you read the lectures from those who say

we shouldn't bad mouth dems? Haven't you see the crazy fool idiot assumptions that anyone dissatisfied with their lack of performance to date is probably either gonna sit out the election or vote repub or third party?

Lord love a duck, if you don't worship at the altar of bad democratic behavior (our elected reps that is), then you're gonna be a shit and throw the election. Or so common 'wisdom' goes.

[GreenTea]

8. Perfect receipe to seal the election again 2008 with their electronic voting machines....

Steal the election and blame Dems, saying they didn't vote for the Dem nominee or went over to the republican side....same old bullshit story...Still in place in over 85% of the country, as we falsely believe things have changed....the republicans have the voting system just the way they like & need it and they are fighting tooth & nail quietly to keep it in place...and they are succeeding.

[robinlynne]

22. exactly. That is the problem. not dems voting republican.

[jgraz]

25. Good thing the national Dems are working so hard to get rid of the machines

Oh wait... :freak:

[robinlynne]

28. well I am, for one.

[Individualist]

9. Exactly!

They're trying to sell a false dichotomy and don't seem to realize most of us aren't stupid enough to buy it.

[TahitiNut]

55. It seems the only ones stupid enough to buy it are the ones stupid enough to support ...

... _______. :rofl:

[jgraz]

7. See, the "Fred Thompson is Hot" comment might have been a clue to how serious this poll is

I actually think quite the opposite. I'm so sick of having people conflate not wanting Hillary nominated with supporting the GOP that I thought I'd just put up a silly poll poking fun at the idea.

[dmallind]

11. It's not quite like that though

and I've personally not seen that expressed.

Now if Hillary DOES get the nomination and you don't vote for her, you make it more likely that the Rep wins. I mean it can't be any other way than that. It's not opinion but math. One less left-leaning vote which does not go to the most left-leaning viable candidate (or heck let's pander to silly DU memes and forget Hillary's very strong voting record and ratings from left-leaning interest groups and say the least right-leaning viable candidate) means that the alternative to the right of that candidate has a better chance of winning.

You can explain conscience voting and litmus tests and how the party has to earn your vote all you want. At a very basic level it is even all true - you can vote for whom you want on the criteria you choose - but that doesn't change the math.

I haven't even seen the most egregious HRC partisans suggest that nobody should consider voting against her in the primaries. I'm 99.9% likely to do just that for one. In the general though, if current trends continue and she's in it, I want to be on the good side of that math.

[jgraz]

12. No. Nominating Hillary is what makes it more likely that the Repugs will win

And the Dems had better figure that out damn soon.

[dmallind]

14. Opinion, and not backed up with any polling or sound theory

Again - we will end up with a candidate. In the general. I'll vote for them. Depending on who it is I may be enthused to do some, or much, campaigning and volunteering and donating, but the vote at least is pretty much a lock. If you don't, then it will not be me, or even the nominee, who is helping Republicans win.

[jgraz]

15. How can polling support your blamestorming?

It's a simple fact: if the Democrats nominate someone who does not get enough votes to win, whose fault is that? Are you really saying that it's the fault of the voters for not supporting a candidate they dislike? Which poll or "sound theory" supports that belief?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

29. Well, Voting Indy Or Not At All Is The Equivalent Of Casting Half Of A Vote For A Republican,

so same difference really.

[jgraz]

30. Don't you ever get tired of holding your nose in the voting booth?

Every presidential election I've voted in, I was always casting a vote against someone. Why the hell is it the fault of the VOTERS that the Democrats can't put up better candidates?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

33. I Frankly Get Tired Of A Lot Of Things. But Thankfully, My Brain Still Works Objectively And Wisely

even when fatigued.

I don't necessarily condone voting for the Dems so strongly merely because I blindly believe in them as if they're perfect or something. I condone them as I do because when it comes right down to it, the day after election day we will recognize the victors. They will either be republican or Democratic. I know what happens when we find too many of them are republican, so regardless of different distastes I have for certain Dems I'm still intelligent and objective enough to know that having more of them be victors on election day is far better than having more repubs that are victors. Pretty simple equation really.

So do I tire of it? Sure, sometimes. Does that mean that I should cut off my nose to spite my face, by either voting for an indy or not at all, thereby in essence casting half a vote for a republican? No way. No matter how much I tire I still don't become quite that objectively stupid.

[jgraz]

35. So if the Democrats nominate Hillary and she loses, who will you blame?

I don't think Ralph will be running. Will you change your avatar to "Fuck Everybody"? In the event that the Democratic nominee (once again) simply can't convince enough people to vote for them, who really should be held responsible for that?

The real question is: will you blame the voters who said "don't nominate hillary, I won't vote for her" or the party who ignored them and told them to shut the fuck up?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

38. There Could Be Many Targets Of Blame. Why The Limited Mentality In Thinking There Has To Be

one and only one? Pretty silly concept if you ask me.

But would the voters be a big target of blame? Of course. Why wouldn't they be?

But the ones I'd blame the most are the supposedly informed voters who are aware of all the things that have occurred these past years, and were still idealistically and narrow mindedly dumb enough to not cast their vote for the Dem.

Anyone here who thinks that there is a republican candidate that would be better for this country than Hillary, then they probably shouldn't be here at all.

Even with Hillary as the nom, you have a choice after election day of your next Pres either being Hillary or the republican nominee. To repeat, if someone here thinks it would be better to wake up to the president elect being the republican nominee, then they seriously shouldn't even be here. But if they don't believe that, then the only sensible, logical, intelligent, reasonable and frankly common sense thing to do would be to vote for her regardless of personal feelings.

[jgraz]

43. I'm just using your model here

After all, your avatar is "Fuck Nader", not "Fuck Bush" or "Fuck Katherine Harris" (ew) or "Fuck the Supreme Court" or even "Fuck the guy who couldn't even carry his home state." Fuck Nader. So I'm assuming you'll be able to find that one person to pin the blame on should we lose the White House in 08.

The real problem here is that we continue to reward the Democrats for bad behavior. They nominate poor candidates, candidates who don't speak to the issues of the generally left-leaning population, and we still give them our votes. I don't hate the Democrats or want them to lose -- and I sure the fuck don't want Republicans to win -- but the problem is that we keep reinforcing their poor choices, both in terms of politics and in terms of what's good for the country.

Nobody thinks the country would be better off with Rethugs in charge. But we've by-and-large had them in charge for the past 27 years. And they're still in charge until our current Congress decides to stand up to them. I don't see this changing until the Democrats realize that there is a real political penalty for ignoring the wishes of their base.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

47. Yawwwwnnnnnnn. Ya Know, It Just Occurred To Me... No More Food For You.

:hi:

[Truth2Tell]

36. What makes you think OMC holds his nose?

:shrug:

[jgraz]

37. Cuz I don't want to picture him holding anything else

:P

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

39. And Yet You Just Did...

:rofl:

[jgraz]

49. Sadly, that realization came too late

:puke:

[muffin1]

42. I'm getting tired of your anti-Hillary posts, jgraz...

If you don't care for her, work your ass off to get someone else on the ticket. If she ends up being the nominee, and you stay home, then by all means, sit on your ass and enjoy the fruits of your "labor". I'm sure you'll be happy with Fred Thompson. Jeez.:evilfrown:

[jgraz]

44. Oh, then I'll certainly stop Wouldn't want to see you upset after all.

Who are you, again?

[muffin1]

45. Oh, for Christ's sake

I am a die-hard liberal. Hillary is not my first choice, BUT better her than anyone on the repuke ticket. That's all I'm saying. To sit home if she's the nominee, is just stoopid, and will give us EIGHT MORE YEARS of repuke rule. Surely, that is not what you want.;-)

[jgraz]

48. The answer is more complex than not wanting another Repig administration

Of course I don't want a Republican administration. At this point, I'm not even sure most Republicans want another Republican administration. But, in all honesty, I really don't want a Democratic administration either. At least not the Democrats we currently have.

Now, I realize those are the only two practical choices, but the truth is the truth. I can't get fired up for another centrist candidate, and I suspect that most people feel the same way. This is not just about what jgraz wants, it's an observation that this continual bent toward centrism, the continual obsession with compromise and "unity" (witness Obama's recent statements) is poor political strategy.

The question is, how to make the Democrats realize this? Is there another way besides just letting them lose once again? After all, we've tried rewarding them for good behavior: we went out and put a significant number of new progressives into Congress last year, but that doesn't seem to have had the desired effect. Do you really feel that your wishes are being represented by our party as it currently stands?

There's the dilemma. If we don't support their candidates, we get the Republicans, But if we do support them, we get politicians who still don't seem to really address the needs of the public. And the more we support them, the worse they seem to get. After all, did you really think our brave new Congress would be continuing the war and expanding Bush's spying powers? I certainly didn't.

So you'd rather I didn't make so many anti-Hillary posts. Then what's your solution? I think that another center-right corporatist nomination will be death for my party. Even if she wins (or maybe especially if she wins) it will be bad for Democrats in the long run. So I do my best to try and convince my fellow Democrats that we need to find another way. If you have a better solution, I'd love to hear it.

[muffin1]

50. Truly, I don't know the answer to all of your thoughtful questions,

I simply am saying I will never, NEVER vote republican, no matter who is the democratic nominee. I am surely, SORELY, disappointed in our newly elected Congress. I expected an answer to the quagmire in Iraq. I fucking DID NOT expect my dear Democratic leaders to give our shit -head-in chief carte blanche to wiretap American citizens. I DO NOT accept the "We don't have the votes" bullshit excuse. Try, mother fuckers, try! Stand up on the floor on the Congress and fight your asses off for us, as we did for you. The way we have been treated in response to the Democratic victory has made me sick to my stomach. I honestly do not know what our response to this should be, but I cannot put another repuke in office to punish them...rather like cutting off our nose to spite our face. Go out and campaign your heart out for your candidate...I know I will, BUT, it if it comes down to Hillary or anyone on the repuke side, I will have to pull the lever for Ms. Clinton.

[jgraz]

51. Join the club

I'm beginning to think that all of the answers suck in one way or another. :banghead:

[muffin1]

53. We agree, my friend

we agree...now on to the fight of our lives.:hi:

[muffin1]

54. One more thing, jgraz...

thank you. Thank you for awakening an anger in me I didn't know I possessed. I just had a huge watershed moment. I too, am sick and tired of being treated this way. Wake up, Dems, and DO THE JOB YOU WERE ELECTED TO TO DO, we are not going to take this treatment anymore!
:yourock:

[jgraz]

58. heh -- usually people just put me on ignore

Now you and I (and everyone else) just need to find an effective way to channel our anger. I'm still not sure what that is :shrug:

Peace.

[Selatius]

10. Center-right Democrats would more likely vote for the fucking Repubs than any strong left Democrat.

A Hillary nomination would simply energize the Republican right core, and they'll come out in numbers like they did in 2004 when they put abortion, God, guns, and gays on the wedge issue table.

[dmallind]

13. I'm a pretty centrist Dem and no not quite

There is essentially zero chance I'd vote Rep this cycle. Even if my least favored candidate got the nod - Kucinich - I can't think of any Rep on the list now I'd vote for over him. I wouldn't donate much if at all, and I surely wouldn't volunteer etc like I would for most of the candidates - but there isn't a Rep out there I prefer.

I suppose I could start thinking about it if someone like a Collins or Snowe or Chaffee came in and said all the right things about needing sensible fiscal policy, stopping the war, looking into improving education and health care, returning civil rights and ending the unitary executive while keeping religion out of politics, then I'd think about it over Kucinich, but the chances of that happening are so damn small and the chances of them getting nominated if they do are so damn smaller still that it just ain't gonna happen.

[OnceUponTimeOnTheNet]

20. I'm a true Centrist and I want Kucinich.

Pro-Gun here. I don't see Dennis checking out what, if Anything, I Might have in my home gun wise. Plus, I like how he presents himself and his point of view. Many of his views et ideas I applaud and support.

I do not want to have to vote for Hillary in the General. I sure as hell won't in the Primary. That Lady is no Centrist. She belongs to the Corporatists.

I do wish Feingold of WI would run. Is there still time?!

[TahitiNut]

56. Funny how that works, isn't it?

That's one of the reasons why I like the Political Compass. When ordinary folks focus almost solely on the social issues, they get hypersensitive to the personal impact. While the spotlight is shining on abortion, guns, crime, GLBT, and speech ... the economic issues get slipped into the play almost unnoticed. Economic issues like regulation, subsidies for the economic infrastructure, corporate welfare, 'free trade,' international 'money laundering,' labor laws, M&A, and the multitude of entitlements (government establishment and enforcement of many varieties of property and the fiction of 'ownership').

We're being played. The current 'game' strategy began with Nixon's Southern Strategy, was consolidated with the Reagan Democrats, and compounded by the squandering of the 'Peace Dividend' under Poppy Bush. Each of the moments in time saw a tectonic widening of the gap between the rich and the poor ("War on the Middle Class" is a nice, distracting euphemism) and a precession-like right-wing finger pointing at social liberalism.

The flawed theory is that the winning strategy of the 'two-party' system is a little like Sumo Wrestling - try to push your opponent of the edge of the mat. (Unfortunately, over 90% of the voters don't know where the mat is.) We're constantly fed the line that the voters "in the middle" are where the political battles must be waged - but there are no voters in that (mythical) middle. (Most voters don't realize where they are, so they accept that - orienteering by looking at the wrestlers and riding on their diapers.

It's too bad it isn't like a game of 'Go' - for surely the Democrats would then have surrounded the most territory. But it's not.

One of the most devious acts of finger-pointing is in the 'Third Way' strategy. While the so-called liberal sumo wrestler dances with the so-called conservative sumo wrestler into the top right corner, the folks who, for one reason (deceit) or another (ignorance), regard themselves as 'centrist' diaper-riders aim their venom at the lower-left quadrant and claim it's THEIR fault the dance is taking place further to the northeast. If, in fact, the liberal sumo wrestler were to step back and dodge to the southeast, the conservative sumo wrestler would fall flat on his tubby belly. The Turd Way types wouldn't like that. THEY're the ones who are actually threatening to defect. (They DID in 1974. They DID in 1980. They rode the Trojan Horse in 1992.)

[BlooInBloo]

17. I like how you left republican-enablers an out tho, by not mentioning...

... the stay-at-home option, the Clinton haters can maintain a facade of supporting Democrats, with their fingers crossed behind their backs, as it were.

[jgraz]

19. Sorry, after the last election, there's no way the Dems can blame a defeat on the progressives

If they are stupid enough to nominate yet another right-wing corporate candidate, they invite their own defeat. This is simple politics 101: the entire country (and the majority of your voters) are far to the left of the person you nominate. Whose fault is it if your candidate doesn't get their support?

[BlooInBloo]

21. Anyone who doesn't vote for the eventual Democratic nominee is a republican enabler.

[jgraz]

24. Right...and the Democrats themselves get none of the blame

They nominate one unelectable dogturd after another, and the voters get blamed for "enabling" republican victories. Do you have any idea how old that shtick is?

[BlooInBloo]

26. They're only unelectable because republican-enabling Democrats don't vote for them...

... Listening to people defend not voting for Gore (we got GW), not voting for Kerry (we got gw AGAIN), and not voting for our next nominee (Huckabee?) makes me fucking sick. They are truly America-haters.

[jgraz]

27. LOL -- YOU ARE SO RIGHT

They are only unelectable because people don't vote for them. Damn, dude, with brains like that you should be running Hillary's campaign!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[VP505]

18. One thing and

probably the only thing that I can thank Bu$hCo for is, how I will always deal with future candidates and elections. I will research all candidates that I might consider voting for THOROUGHLY, I will never vote for a Republic, they simply don't have ANYTHING to offer working class people, and I will NEVER forgive Bu$hCo and that party for what they have done to this country and Constitution.

[WinkyDink]

31. SHOOT ME FIRST.

[in_cog_ni_to]

32. I'd kill myself first. n/t

[Elspeth]

34. Hey, you need more options: Ralph Nader, anyone?

Or a write-in vote for Cesar Chavez, Noam Chomsky or Mickey Mouse?

[Solly Mack]

40. I'd rather watch amoeba porn for the rest of my days (yes, there is a pic)

[Liberal_Dog]

41. No Chance In Hell

The worst of ours is a hell of alot better than the best of theirs.

[backscatter712]

46. Let me ask this question

Why are so many supporting Hillary for the primary elections?

Don't tell me the entire Democratic party supports the DLC.

She's got the most money coming. She and her supporters rip on Obama's and Kucinich's lack of experience. Let me turn that around and suggest that it's experience of the kind you get in DC, especially around the folks from K Street, that makes a person unsuitable for the Presidency. Hillary's got experience. That means she's got the biggest Rolodex. She's got the most campaign money, and she owes the most favors to the corporate lobbyists.

She'll repay those favors at our expense, mark my words. And thus the kleptocracy continues.

I'll probably hold my nose and vote for her if she gets the Democratic nomination, but don't think I'll be happy doing it.

Whee. Vote for Clinton because she sucks slightly less than the Repugs...

C'mon. The real Democratic party is out there. We can do so much better.

/me dons his asbestos long johns...

[terrya]

52. I'll kill myself...

if I find myself even slightly considering thinking voting Republican in 2008.

None of our candidates aren't even close to being as vile, as disgusting as the likes of Mitt Romney or Fred Thompson. Not even fucking close.

[Milo_Bloom]

57. GOP? No, 3rd party, yes.

[Warren DeMontague]

59. We have a wonderful field. I will be happy to support any of 'em. Even Biden.

And since we're ALL such good team players, I know that all my friends in the DLC and the "center" will join me in enthusiastically supporting Mr. Kucinich when he wins the nomination.