What kind of society do you wish to see in the future?

[bobbolink]

Do we have any consensus in what we envision of our nation?

What kind of government do we really want to have?

How do we want to deal with conflicts across the globe?

How do we want to see inequality dealt with?

What kind of life do we envision for "the least of these"?

How do we see ourselves relating in every day life?

Given that we are so disillusioned with our country now, what country do we want to engage in building?

[rucky]

1. Back to basics - community-focused. sustainable.

there's too much noise in the world.

[bobbolink]

3. Ah, yes, community! Inter-dependent, cooperative...

I've been doing a lot of reading and thinking about community.

From ME to WE!!

[Gregorian]

2. A respectful one.

I can't think of anything that sums up how I feel better than that. It cures all ailments. War, poverty, illness, pollution, overpopulation.


Edit- I forgot to add that in order for that to happen, people must sacrifice. It's an integral part of the process.

[bobbolink]

6. How would that look? Can you flesh that out a bit?

I certainly agree that people would have to give up some of what they have come to expect as their "rightful place".

[Gregorian]

16. They'd have to notice the effects of their actions.

Basically not invade another person's life.

I just left a beautiful property in the country because of noise. A neighbor who just had to have a peacock. One that shrieks at 3am. Or another one with a dog that barked nonstop from the moment they went to work at midnight until they got home. Or the rednecks in trucks without mufflers, of course at four in the morning.

Or the neighbor who was a millionaire, but who just wanted more money, so he cut down five acres out of his 20,000. The five that happened to be right in my front yard. I even have photos. But I'll spare you.

Stuff like that. Things we do affect other people. But very very few people ever think about that. It's why some people are still in support of this war. They just don't care about the people who are suffering.

All it takes is thinking. But that's not a very popular thing to do. And the reason is, it might mean we can't just do anything we desire. We might have to sacrifice.

Freedom isn't reckless abandon. Many people don't know that.

[bobbolink]

30. As Michael Moore says, we need to move from ME to WE.

I see so much of this, and the only thing I can figure out to do, on my own, is to keep reminding those who have the power to do what we who have suffered abuse must do.... SET BOUNDARIES, then MAINTAIN THEM.

I'm sorry that you have been subjected to so much ... it's more than being inconsiderate, your neighbors were HARRASSING you! There needs to be protection from that, for those who just can't see beyond their own tunnel vision.

"All it takes is thinking. But that's not a very popular thing to do."

I agree. However, remember that there USED to be a lot more common courtesy in this society, and it wasn't that long ago. For example, in campgrounds, people are so inconsiderate so much of the time. When my parents were camping, if someone had told them that what they were doing was upsetting to others, they would have been mortified. Now, people just shrug and get defensive and verbally abusive if you let them know they are upsetting someone else.

Heck, we don't have to go looking for it, the same thing happens right here on DU! Someone says they are offended by racist, sexist or other terms, and are told it's "free speech", etc. People are hurt by attacks, and told to "grow a skin". We aren't the caring, considerate nation we used to me, and it gets just plain ugly.

The fact is, we have become a sociopathological society, and it MUST change, or it's all going to come down. And that goes for liberals as well as conservatives. WE are part of it, also.

[blues90]

4. I'd have to write a book

However I would like to see things much more down to earth . Back to on the job training and fair pay .

All I can say is this is not the world I want to be in as it is now or how I see it as it is becoming . That is no way to live in some sort of insane rat race with everything designed with some futuristic look .

I would like to see people being able to live where they were born in a community and be around long term friends and know the shop keepers , just simple life where life is possible and sustainable .

I don't even know if I feel computers are a good thing or not , they seem to have done more harm than good . If I were young today I may see this all in a different light but this era is far removed from what life used to be .

It took a long time to go from the horse and buggy days with oil lamps to freeways and electric and people could adapt but this new age came in it seems an instant and it is difficult if not impossible to adapt , at least for me it is .

[The Vinyl Ripper]

42. Before the age of computers...

I basically had no one to relate to 99.9% of the time. At least on a lot of subjects which interest me.

I love my family a great deal, but they are non technical and utterly non political.

If it weren't for computers, you would be listening to the MSM and feeling like Donald Sutherland at the end of "Invasion of the Body Snatchers", if you were lucky.

[BlooInBloo]

5. One where *genuine* knowledge is valued.

[justinaforjustice]

7. Great Questions! We Need To Imagine a Great Society and Build It!

I want a society based on relatively small scaled communities, where it is possible to know one's neighbors and participate with them in making the critical decisions affecting our community. Thus I want participatory democracy at the lowest and broadest level.

I want a new economic system. Capitalism is fast destroying our planet and it destroys itself in the ever increasing wars for oil and control of other natural resources. Capitalism creates products we don't need and then the advertising campaigns to make us buy them. I want an economic system that makes things because they are useful to human beings, not just profitable to corporations.

I want an economic system that is based on the free and democratic participation of all as to what will be produced and how it will be produced. Thus, I want fully a fully democratic work place, with all who work there having a say in the critical decisions affecting their job and company. We will need to have a much reduced work week so we can all participate in our own education, cultural and creative development, not to mention having enough time to spend with our families and to participate in community projects.

Some people have jobs that they love to do so much that they would pay to be allowed to do them. Unfortunately, the vast majority of people don't love their jobs. My ideal society would make it possible for people to choose the things they love to do most, to work at their passions, without worrying about paying the rent or putting food on the table. Everyone would receive a truly livable wage as a base salary which would enable them to work at their passion, be it art, music, fixing cars, or farming.

The apologists for capitalists want us to believe that human beings wouldn't work unless they were forced to in order to eat and have a roof over their heads. I reject this. I do plenty of "work" which is unpaid for the sheer pleasure of doing it, so do most of my friends. We would all "work" whether we had to or not. This is especially true of those who love their jobs. We should all do our jobs because we love to do them.

In my ideal society, medical and dental care, education to the doctoral level, adequate housing, adequate food, would all be constitutional rights, as they are currently in Venezuela where I am living.

Actually, all of the things I've spelled out above are in progress under the Chavez government here. This country is beginning on the road to a truly human society where developing happy human beings, not profits, are the goal. It will probably take a while to get there, and no society will ever be ideal, but Venezuela is definitely on the way. I hope that the United States will throw off the horrors of our current economic system, which would pave the way for a restoration of our Constitution and for implementing the ideas of our founders: freedom and justice for all.

[bobbolink]

31. Could I please live in your world?

That was my response when I read your reply.

Then, I see that you are living in Venequela. I really hope you will post more about that, as we all need to know and understand what things are like there on a daily basis... the good, the bad, and the inbetween!

I wish that countries that are kinder to poor folk would let us poor USians in. We are dying here, and need a chance somewhere else.

Thanks so much for your post!

[porphyrian]

8. One that's free and just for everyone. - n/t

[autorank]

9. I'd like a society that achieved this status. K*R

Shared prosperity - in the Republic of Venice, everybody did well (extremely well). Guilds (unions) were not just tolerated, they were welcomed.

Tolerance - the intolerant were not tolerated because that threatened tolerance. There were special police who looked for the intolerant. The Venetians helped spread false rumors of their "torture chambers," a charade, to keep bigots away. The Venetians traded and worked with the Muslim world and showed them respect, even when competing with them.

Creativity - this was welcomed from within or without. Many in the Renaissance found Venice the place to paint, sculpt, do science, etc.

Honesty - the ruler of Venice, selected by a council representing the city, had to sign an elaborate contract warning him of all conflicts that might be seen as unfair of fraudulent. Violation of this meant removal and banishment.

Meritocracy - by the middle of the 11th century, hereditary succession was banned. This was not for royalty, they had none. It was for the elected position of the leader, Doge, no hereditary successession - a son could not succeed his father, for example, cousins, etc. This was viewed as decadent and representative of the less advanced political cultures of Europe.

Venice had a very long run as the worlds great center of commerce and success. It was so small that eventually the reign ended as...

La Serenissima (the most serene republic)

...but the principles of social structure still live on as an ideal for any people with the wit and ingenuity.

They understood one thing above all - when everybody does well, the state does well. It was so obvious, the didn't even need to write it down.

[bobbolink]

32. I'm hoping that, reading between the lines, poor folk shared in that prosperity, too!

What you have outlined here is so enticing!

How could they have strayed from that?!

I didn't know any of this, and so much appreciate your post. I wish there was some way we could all come together and form this sort of society. Ours is too large and too unwieldy to do this here--at least at this point.

I want so much to live in this society you have painted for us!

[pinto]

10. The one we build.

:hi:

[Demeter]

11. Egalitarian

There's got to be an end to hairsplitting and unimportant distinctions, and a return to valuing real distinctions. Those that have nothing to do with how successful a crook your grandfather was.

[Gabi Hayes]

12. every body bravely takes soma

[tomreedtoon]

13. I want a society of smart people.

People who don't watch American Idol.

People to whom you don't need to explain to people who Shakespere or Gene Roddenberry or Cab Calloway is.

People who read the signs and prices posted at a snack bar, instead of stepping up and asking "What you got?" (Translation, "I'm too lazy to read and think - do it for me, you schmuck.")

People who know the name of their city's mayor, their state's Congresspeople and Senators and governor, and the name of the President of the United States. (Ask some random people on the street to identify Dick Cheney. You'd be surprised.)

Basically, the teachers of America, and the people who claim to be intellectuals, let us down. They allowed our nation to become stupid. They fell to both political pressure, pretentious educational "theory" and just plain laziness.

They didn't teach children critical thinking. They didn't teach kids to check their facts - and check the facts other people claim to be true. The end result is not simply the Bush Presidency, it is a large number of people who believe the Bush Presidency is right. And smart.

There have been a very few teachers who encouraged me to think. Most were layabouts, teaching from the book, showing all the passion and enthusiasm as a driver's license bureau clerk. They, and the pretentious intellectuals who publish in The New York Review of Books to impress their peers, allowed our nation to become stupid.

Maybe - just maybe - with an inspirational President who believes in thinking before acting - we might begin to get smart again.

[bobbolink]

33. I agree intelligence is important. However, having grown up in a town with the highest level of IQ

per capita in the nation, I can tell you that intelligence ain't everything.

As my neighbor used to say, "You meet a physicist on the street and say "Hello", and he's stuck for an answer."

Being intelligent doesn't guarantee, by a long shot, that that person will give a rip about others, understand common courtesy, or want equality for all.

Some intelligent people are real pains in the tushe.

[tomreedtoon]

41. By intelligence, I mean EQ as well as IQ.

For example, I mentioned the "snack bar" case. It isn't simply a matter of having reading skills, although those are important. It is having the desire to read the sign containing the foods for sale and their price.

It isn't that people can't read the sign; even if they have low reading skills they can probably do that. It's that they don't WANT to read the sign. They don't see a reason why they should go to the effort of reading the sign, if they can shift that responsibility on the poor slob working behind the counter.

I know this because, during my college years, I was that poor slob working behind the counter. And on the deficiency of IQ versus EQ (emotional intelligence) I'd say on the average it was half and half. Besides reading the sign, low EQ also meant insisting on paying for a one dollar soda with a hundred dollar bill, forcing me to ignore a pile of other customers so I could get change for Ms. Spendo and her need to act smug.

Your physicist might not understand "Hello," but that's not a matter of IQ or EQ, but plain social incompetence. Social competence is something that can only be learned very early, if at all. I would suspect that he would know, somewhere in the recesses of his mind, that he was supposed to respond socially, and in a friendly matter, but he just didn't know how to do it. There's a difference between not knowing what to say, and knowing what to say but not taking the effort to say it.

[nosmokes]

14. A place that celebrates diversity rather than merely tolerates it. I'd like to see

a society where the weakest and most ill-abused among us were the number one priority. A society where hundreds of thousands of men and women and billions of dollars worth of equipment were deployed to Sudan and New Orleans not with guns and tanks but with bulldozers and computers and X-ray machines and well digging equipment.

I'd like to see us all get to a point where we at least know our neighbors and can look after each other if we get sick and someone notices if ya don't come outta the house for a few days and you exchange produce from each other's gardens and plant cuttings and even if you have diametrically opposed political views you can still recognise each other as a decent human being.

[bobbolink]

34. "a society where the weakest and most ill-abused among us were the number one priority"

Absolutely! If that were to happen, not only would people like me be able to live in peace, but... it would lift the whole of society!

What you have written is not anywhere close to "fringe", yet in our society, it would be seen as such.

We really do need to come together and start working towards these dreams!

[brer cat]

15. Where elderly have a community

of safety and peace. Thank you for trying to make that possible, Bobbie.

[bobbolink]

35. I want that community!

Alas, I have failed utterly in trying to make a community possible, or even understood.

:cry:

[eridani]

17. Figure out how to live like a middle class American with FAR less--

--throughput of energy and raw materials.

Bring the project of dominating the rest of the world by force to an end, and put those resources into inventing the next energy economy while we still can.

For inequality we have a floor, but no ceiling. EVerybody is a full member of society in every way.

For dealing with global conflict, aborting the global domination project will stop a lot of it right there. It's possible to have modern armed forces reasonably in line with what our founders envisioned--Switzerland is a good example. A world full of Swiss armies could collaborate to deal with conflict, which will be necessary until we stop and reverse human population growth.

[Swamp Rat]

18. a peaceful world for all

[Tsiyu]

19. Haudenosaunee

I'd like to see a society run in similar fashion to the way the People of the Longhouse ran theirs. Mutual respect gender-wise.

But this is 'merica and we work with what we've got.

Realistically:

Do we have any consensus in what we envision of our nation?

No way. I wonder if we will have to change community by community. Many places are already making progressive changes. They should be models. I think we have to figure out some way to convince Jane and John Public to follow those models because it benefits all.

Take the environment. I think people are waking up to that and are becoming more willing to take the environment into account for their own sake. Sad, but selfishness motivates most US choices.


What kind of government do we really want to have?

I think we have checks and balances and laws in place that should have stopped the vast corruption , at least in the spirit of our legislation. We need a government that actually plays by the rules and is accountable.

We need more regular citizens in the process and we need the Fairness Doctrine returned. The airways belong to the public. They should never have been allowed to be hijacked by one political party.


How do we want to deal with conflicts across the globe?

Not the way we've been doing it!

Diplomacy, holding corporations accountable and not allowing US corps to exploit foreign nations, seeking trade agreements that benefit all, helping nations have real farming, not Monsanto farming. Encouraging regular meetings between the heads of all stattes. Setting ourselves up as an example - as a nation with human rights at the forefront - so that other nations will follow that example rather than seeking to be the same sons of hell we have been lately.


How do we want to see inequality dealt with?


Do away with many of the drug laws as they are subject to extreme abuse creating inequality where there is already enough of it.

Make a living wage, health care and retirement mandatory, and force CEOs to escrow those gigunda bonuses to be held until it is shown that a profit was actually made. If a corp pays a certain amount in bonuses to its CEOs it should also be mandatory that they split the same amount between all other employees.

We force businesses to pay SSI and FICA, we can force them to stop the practice of paying slave wages at the bottom and royalty's booty at the top.


What kind of life do we envision for "the least of these"?

We need social programs. They cost a fraction of what corporate and military expenditures are and yet we cannot fund these important programs?

Health care, education, rehabilitation and housing for the least of these. I would not mind a mandatory service to country for all young people where they spend a year helping out in poor areas. Of course this would be abused currently, but under the right leadership, it would be a good step.

Also disaster planning that doesn't leave the poor to rot is a priority.



How do we see ourselves relating in every day life?

It would be nice if people slowed down a bit, and if they didn't judge people based on material things. And if people could live in communities where shopping and eating aren't the only activities.


Given that we are so disillusioned with our country now, what country do we want to engage in building

I try to live that place, spending my money locally as much as I can, trying to use fewer resources, seeking out people who are of similar mindset, helping my neighbors and family, planning to build a "green" studio/greenhouse next spring from donated materials, encouraging young people to have hope.

Make it happen where you are in even a small way :)

[Cleita]

20. I would like to see a real democracy.

Every citizen should be required to do his/her civic duty once in their lifetime for two to four years like jury duty or military duty. Replace Congress with this citizens' ruling body or senate. The rest of the government should be made up of career professionals and bureacrats, who must pass civil service exams and background checks for their suitability for the position. The citizens' Senate will confirm their hiring and if they are incompetent, fire them. There should be no partisanship in those positions all the way up to President, but only the ability to do the job. People like Bush would never get near the presidency nor would they stay in office if they abuse the position of the chief executive of our country if we ran our country like a true democracy.

[Colorado Progressive]

21. Spirituality instead of organized religion. No cars. No hate. No wars unless for defense.

[defendandprotect]

22. Everyone wants peace and to be left alone --- IMO

Ban corporations from any involvement in our elections ---

"All are equal" --

End patriarchy -- move to gender balance laws --
females not more than 60% of power -- not less than 40% --

Stop any remaining legal/social constraints that impact females, people of color and/or homosexuals

Educate people about the dangers of animal-exploitation --
Move voluntarily to vegetarian and Veganism --
Open the animal-"meat" industry to exposure -- let public see it in full.

National Health Care, of course -- based on prevention and ending slash and burn treatments.

We have to return control of our natural resources to the people's government and end ownership by a few private families.

Electric cars --- quickly.

Certainly a return to the New Deal -- and even beyond that a taking down of corporations --
Putting them back in the box and taking them out again only for limited times to deal with specific problems -- to serve society and not the other way around.

Only highly regulated economic programs -- and highly socially-responsible people's government.
Phase out capitalism.

Nothing wrong with democracy -- and we have to include economic democracy --

End Pax Americana -- Develop the United Nations more fully, as originally intended.
Deal with the issue of "aggression" as they had planned to do pre-Iraq!!!!
We have to end violence -- it's suicidal.

"Least of these" may be ALL of us --
Global Warming is going to make us see that, IMO.

We're going to have to act together to cope with coming problems from GW.

Quickly legalize all plants -- marijuana, etc.
Simple age limits on use --

Educate public in regard to plants as "medicine" -- and make sure that every individual has full understanding of the practical health benefits of plants and dangers -- cautions.

Enlarge a network of nursing care and midwives --

Undo whatever is left of nuclear power plants -- I think we have 106 --
certainly they are targets, whether we talk of damage from weather that is very HOT, or threats from Global Warming . . . they are a problem right now.

[defendandprotect]

23. Lady mumbed today . . .. "of course a 12 year old needs a Coach pocketbook" ---

We have some problems with thinking in America --
Much of what we have we can live without -- and probably feel and do better without them.
TV, for instance, has turned many Americans into spectators rather than life-affirming participants!!

[cyborg_jim]

24. Cyborgs - lots of them.

Rise of the Machines.

[Posteritatis]

25. One whose members can look back and think, "this was worth our past."

Whatever it's like, if folks in that time can look back and really truly correctly believe that, then I'm not about to quibble with the basic shapes.

[undergroundpanther]

26. An asshole free society

where everyone is responsible and everyone can live free of abuse,
a place where people can be what they are, but no tolerance for abuse, exploitation, conning,manipulation,control freak games,

A world without psychopathy authoritarians and narcissists.

[bobbolink]

29. Sounds like heaven to me!

It wouldn't guarantee everyone working together, but....

Without all the shit, many more of us would have a chance at a decent life!

:hi:

[Lilith Velkor]

53. A world with no room for hypocrisy about bullying

...where you don't get to verbally abuse anyone for having an opinion that differs from yours.

Yeah, that'd be real nice.

[hogwyld]

27. A Socialist paradise

where everyone get free medical care, where the poor are no longer the poor, everyone gets a fair liveable wage for their labors. We talk to other countries instead of threatening them. A budget that spends more on our domestic needs instead of the next new gee wiz bomb. A society without conservative dribble.

[Katherine Brengle]

28. What a great OP -----

Do we have any consensus in what we envision of our nation?

I doubt it. BUT, I think we want a lot of the same things. Our priorities are not always the same of course.

What kind of government do we really want to have?

Well, if you're asking my personal opinion, I think we would benefit most from a social(ist)-democratic state. I think if you hash out the beliefs of most of us, that's the result you'd get.

How do we want to deal with conflicts across the globe?

This is a tough one. I think the US needs to stop being the world's police. We also need to stop being the world's biggest bully and exporter of violence and terrorism. I'm not sure we can end human conflict, at least not without dramatically altering the way human beings interact with one another - of course, as a radfem, that's where the revolution comes in, but that's a looooong post.

How do we want to see inequality dealt with?

I want to see it end. I don't claim to know how to do this. Stop corporate welfare, for one. Stop granting privilege to the ultra-rich. Stop cronyism in government. Tax the rich to the teeth - and I am unapologetic about this. That's a start. Pay every individual worker a living wage as long as they are willing and able to work. Those who are physically incapable of working should be cared for.

What kind of life do we envision for "the least of these"?

I assume you mean those on the bottom of the human food chain. Decent living standards, access to good health care and education, a living wage so they can eat and live and take care of their families, enough comfort in life for some leisure without guilt.

How do we see ourselves relating in every day life?

Without prejudice. Without privilege. Without preconceived notions.

Given that we are so disillusioned with our country now, what country do we want to engage in building?

I think we, and most of the world, are so far off-base, I don't know what it would take to break it all down and rebuild. The Apocalypse maybe,

Because of my personal beliefs/ideology, I do not believe our civilization can be saved or altered from within. I believe it must be completely broken down, and that we must start over from nothing. I believe this because the most basic way in which humans interact with one another (sexually) is broken and after thousands of years, it cannot be repaired from where it stands. Privilege and oppression are so ingrained in all of us, so seeded into our everyday lives. And this relationship is the basis upon which half of the human family is treated as less than the rest. I believe it is also part of the basis for human beings dehumanizing other humans they see as "other" or "lesser" than themselves - once one privileged/oppressed dynamic exists, it opens the floodgates for the rest. I also believe this dynamic is the cornerstone of capitalism, which I believe to be inherently harmful to human people.

My post-revolution world would be fully egalitarian. Privilege and oppression would cease to exist. Violence would be unheard of and unacceptable. No one would go without when there is plenty to go around. All would contribute, all would benefit.

I'm sure I could go on forever about this, so I will leave it at that for now.

[bobbolink]

49. "No one would go without when there is plenty to go around. "

Excellently worded!

It should be a CRIME for people to die OF POVERTY, when there is so much excess! Yet, the deaths go on, and there is no outrage.

"All would contribute, all would benefit."

While that sounds good, I see the seeds of poverty again. There are some who CAN'T contribute, and never will be able to. You see, that is STILL how we judge. What do they do---hurl themselves off a cliff, if they are physically able?? I'm so discouraged that this is always our ruler to go by... that everyone "contribute". If that's the scale, then we MUST consciously decide how to rid ourselves of those who can't, rather than letting them die by the wayside.

"I do not believe our civilization can be saved or altered from within."

I"ve come to that conclusion myself. Especially when I see the same behavior on DU that is decried when it applies to the RW. We aren't willling to look at our own shadow, and that means that nothing will change.

[mentalsolstice]

36. I'm glad YOU asked this!

I've seen so many angry posts by you...yet they haven't got to the crux of human dignity. You could be a wonderful representative of "real life" here at DU. Asking these questions and many others (hopefully) in the future will gain you a wide audience here, and educate many about the plight of the "lower class". I worry that many here don't want to face the fact that so many of us are homeless, starving, etc. However, a post like this, and many, many more like this could knock us on our collective noggin!

Keep waking us up, girlfriend!

[bobbolink]

47. Thank you. However, you notice the relatively small response.

This should be a CENTRAL issue for us! Yet, it doesn't even rate the conversation of a "DU this poll" thread. :(

I appreciate ALL the responses here! Yet, where can this go now? We can't seem to take this any deeper. In all honesty, while I *Very* much appreciate your last sentence, my alarm bell has worn out.

As for the anger...... if you were in my shoes.....

Someone here compared me to not Martin Luther King, with his gentleness, but Malcolm X. After struggling with that for a long while, I realized that fit. His anger didn't sit well with most whites, either, but it was necessary. As a matter of fact, Martin Luther King wouldn't have gotten the support he got if it hadn't been for the specter of Malcolm X, scaring people.

No, I'm not ashamed of being angry. What bothers me is the paucity of anger from other poor folk. It's so easy to pick us off one by one, and play us against each other. :cry:

[camero]

37. A society of minimum and maximum benefits

One that gives at least the basics of housing, food, education, and medical care while telling the rich that THEY'VE GOT ENOUGH.

[Jed Dilligan]

38. Just some random thoughts...

Consensus? Never!

Government? There's something really wrong with this one, obviously. What about a system where candidates can ONLY be drafted? I'm starting to feel like no professional politician is ever up to any good. However, at the lower levels of government (unelected) there are a lot of really competent people doing important work, and I wouldn't want to throw that away. Police and courts need to be dissolved and reformed completely, though.

Conflicts? We don't... Unless they are a direct threat to us or our allies, provided the allies aren't culpable. The key to avoiding these overseas adventures is to achieve energy independence, a sustainable food supply, etc. so we don't have all these "economic interests" to protect in countries that belong to other people.

Inequality? I think there should be some inequality. Some people--like brain surgeons, for instance--need a bigger incentive to work. They have rarer talents, put in more time training, and work in a high-stress, life/death situation all the time. On the other hand, the big money gets made in financial markets, not in salaries, and that doesn't seem much different than gambling to me. Maybe if corporations started paying taxes the value of labor vs. capital would be more reflective of reality.

Poverty? I don't think starvation and homelessness are requisite incentives to work, though this seems to be mainstream political thinking nowadays. How about meeting basic needs for all--EVEN people who choose not to work--with luxuries and other advantages to be earned by working more?

"Ourselves relating in everyday life"? Not something I put much stock in. There will always be great people, boring people, nice people, assholes. I would like to think there will be a time someday when we have more choice as to the company we keep, rather than spending most our time in "The Office" type situations. A minimum of enforced socialization would be nice, and we may actually be moving in that direction with technology.

I want to engage in building a smaller, less aggressive, better educated, more urban/agrarian (less suburban), less puritanical country that honors its artists as much as its bankers.

[marions ghost]

39. good question

IMAGINE how it would feel to live in a country where you could feel GOOD about the government, GOOD about the general state of things, GOOD about the future. With liberty and justice for all, & all that democracy stuff.

We've been down so long it's hard to even envision it. But don't we ALL deserve a country like that? It doesn't seem like too much to ask. Instead we live in fear and animosity, watching the destruction of everything we care about.

You can't hide out in the woods somewhere and hope to get away from it all either. I've tried it. Doesn't work. There's no escape. We're going to have to deal with this. That is the lesson of the B*sh nightmare IMO. We have seen how bad it really is.

Get rid of "executive privilege" would be a good place to start.

[bobbolink]

57. I"d just like to be allowed to feel GOOD about myself,

instead of ashamed because I need assistance, and scared to death because social programs aren't "sexy" enough for liberals to back.

"It doesn't seem like too much to ask."

No, it certainly doesn't. Actually, if you'll pardon the expression, what you're asking for is almost "conservative". :)

[JVS]

40. Post-apocalyptic motorcycle society!

[The Vinyl Ripper]

43. These days I'm very cynical...

But I started out as a naive idealist. The cynicism I picked up on the way..

I've been involved just enough with local politics to despair of ever having a truly honest political process. Almost without exception, those who rise anywhere near the top in politics are not the cream but rather the scum.

In any given group of humans there are those who do and those who talk. And for reasons I'm just starting to understand it is almost always those who talk who end up in charge while those who do are left out in the cold.

The world I would like to see?

Pretty much the one Gene Roddenberry envisioned for Star Trek. A world grown up past the need for competition for scarce resources, one where people are at least somewhat free to follow their muse wherever it might lead.

A world where prejudice and bigotry have been largely overcome and a person can be judged by the content of his or her character rather than by their outward appearance.

[marions ghost]

44. "those who do and those who talk...."

yes I see that playing out all the time. I was involved in a local non-profit org and even there it was the pontificators in control while others had the good ideas and did the real work. Then the pontificators took credit for it. It is the rare organization that does not reward those who put up the best front and have the most 'clout', whatever that may be in any microcosm. In the case I saw, the Powers That Be eventually ran what could have been a really dynamic organization straight into the ditch, much like what is happening in our democracy. I was struck by how much "the corporate model" runs every aspect of our lives.

Yeah--local politics is enough to bum you out in a hurry & cause an immediate plunge from idealism to pessimism. Anybody who thinks they're living in a "progressive" area and therefore they can afford to coast...better get real. The forces of greed and corruption want YOU --in your little citizens' environmental groups and whatnot --but only for you to help them keep up appearances so they can say they listen to all sides and the community is "progressive." This is the biggest scam going. I'm not working for them anymore. I like the model of consumer advocacy groups and groups like CREW, working to build power from outside the fatally corrupted channels.

People making a difference in groups doesn't happen much in our overworked and isolationist society. Except when we are told to "pull together" for the latest war. But it could. I still believe in the power of the people. But our approaches are not working. We have to find creative ways to bypass the usual channels. You can't work WITH the mentality that wants to exploit you at local or national level. That's Pollyanna nonsense.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

46. Then the pontificators took credit for it.

Yes, that's my own observation in a nutshell..

I haven't found an organization of any size yet where that does not hold true.

[bobbolink]

48. I'm cynical too, and started out the same way as you describe yourself.

"A world where prejudice and bigotry have been largely overcome"

You don't mention poverty, as many don't anymore, but I will hope that figures in there somewhere for you.

One of our BIG problems is we're so divided on all the issues now. What I see is that so much of the time, people concerned with "prejudice and bigotry" don't see the poverty, and the same with "peace". I feel very much left out of the vision of the future, which doesn't exactly spur me on to do more for those goals that mean so much to YOU.

Include me, and I will feel more connected, and thus able to do more.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

54. You missed this part of my post...

"A world grown up past the need for competition for scarce resources".

By which I meant that resources will be not only abundant, but more equally shared than they are today.

Believe me, I care about the poor.

I are one, just one paycheck away from living on the street. And I've been *there* before too..

[bobbolink]

55. You're right, I didn't translate that as you did.

"Equally shared".

What a concept.

People being able to live in dignity, instead of begging for charity.

It can't happen soon enough!

Thank you for clarifying.

[Subdivisions]

45. When peak oil gets done with us there may not be enough

people left to have a society.

[Selatius]

50. Let me try to answer your question from a realistic perspective:

Do we have any consensus in what we envision of our nation?

No. The right wingers have a totally different conception from the left wingers, and people who have no conviction either way are stuck in the middle with no clue where to go.

What kind of government do we really want to have?

We want pretty much what we have now. A White House, a Congress, and a Supreme Court. We don't agree on everything else, however, and that's the killer in the details.

How do we want to deal with conflicts across the globe?

We don't know; we're uninformed; and the media doesn't report it like they should. We don't even know our history of overthrowing other elected governments from Latin America to the Middle East. That's a problem not just of our corporatized news media but also of our underfunded, failing, lackluster schools that don't stack up well to the rest of the industrialized world.

How do we want to see inequality dealt with?

Whatever it is, it can't be called socialism. When it is, we don't want it anymore. The Republicans know it, so they call anything they don't like socialism. For example, single-payer health care = socialism, so single-payer is dead at the starting line.

What kind of life do we envision for "the least of these"?

We don't think about that much. It's more about what happens to me, not what happens to Joe Poor who lives under the bridge down by the river. We live in a me society instead of a we society, as Michael Moore said.

How do we see ourselves relating in every day life?

We don't even know how to live with each other right now. We couldn't come up with an answer for tomorrow. The only constant in our society is struggle--struggle between the poor and the rich, struggle between those with power and those without, and struggle between various business and special interests that dominate our country.

Given that we are so disillusioned with our country now, what country do we want to engage in building?

When half the country stops voting, there is no real future left for this country. The life cycle of the nation is ending. When it ends, a new life cycle will begin. No nation lasts forever. Nations come and go, but people at the bottom always endure and live on. When Roman civilization collapsed into darkness, people didn't die off with it. They lived on, lived in the darkness.

[bobbolink]

51. I guess I didn't make myself clear enough... the "WE" is us

"liberals", "progressives", etc.

We've done all the blaming of the RW, and it's time to look to ourselves at what we really want to have, and what our shadow is that is part of the problem, and what we're going to do about it.

Putting it all on the RW is getting us nowhere fast.

[Selatius]

52. Now that you say that, I'd like to see a lot of things

I want the Bill of Rights of America back. I want Sweden's unionization rate. I want France's health care system and France's taxpayer subsidized higher education system and France's poverty-relief programs for its citizens. I want Japan's high speed bullet train mass transit system. I want Germany's leadership in solar power production. I want Great Britain's BBC. I want China's manufacturing base, and I want Switzerland's petition democracy.

[bobbolink]

56. That's a nice international mix you've concocted there!

:thumbsup:

Along with all that, what's imperative is common courtesy, and learning to actually LISTEN to people. We dirtyhippiecommiepinkobums did that, but I guess that was really retro of us. :)

[flvegan]

58. One where I wield supreme executive power just 'cause some watery tart threw a sword at me

The idea that I could be an emperor just because some moistened bint had lobbed a scimitar at me...

[Rex]

59. Honesty, respect and common courtesy.

World unification over something positive would be nice.

[Warren DeMontague]

60. One where people run their own lives first instead of trying to run everyone elses.

One where what consenting adults do with their own bodies is their own business. Personal freedom to the extent that one is not harming or endangering others- protected and honored without apology.

One where the separation of church and state is honored and respected as the crucial democratic value it is. If you want to believe that the Earth is 6,000 years old and the moon is self-luminated, great, but keep that bullshit way the fuck away from public school science classes.

One where cultural and social priorities are things like infrastructure, environmental protection and research into renewable power, a strong social safety net, a SPHC system- but the existence of cultural and social priorities does NOT mean that society needs to let the puritans and nanny statists run around micro-managing the personal choices of individuals.

Oh, and I'd like to see us get off this rock and move out into the stars. No apologies there, either.

[Lilith Velkor]

61. A full-on welfare state with maximum leisure for all

The more time people have to think, the more ideas (some of which will be very good ones) will come.

Robots to do shitty/dangerous work.

Any capitalist who squawks about having to share would be forcibly jacked into a virtual plantation reality where they get to be masters and we get to harvest their bioelectric energy.

Yeah.